Who Remembers Sabra & Shatilla?

For three days in September 1982, Israeli forces in collusion with the Lebanese Phalangist militia’s, slaughtered, raped and maimed a large number of unarmed civilians inside the encircled and sealed Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. As many as 3,000 innocent men, women and children were massacred, but to this day no one has been held accountable for this genocidal act.
Never Forgotten: The Massacre of Sabra & Shatilla (16-18 September 1982)
For 40 hours in September 1982, members of the Israeli-allied Lebanese Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the encircled and sealed Sabra and Shatila camps. The estimate of victims varies between 700 (the official Israeli figure) to 3,500.
On 6 June 1982, the Israeli army invaded Lebanon in retaliation for the attempted assassination of Israeli Ambassador Shlomo Argov in London on 4 June. The Israeli secret services had that same day attributed the attempted assassination to a dissident Palestinian organisation backed by the government of Iraq, which was at the time eager to deflect world attention from its recent setbacks in the Iran-Iraq war. The Israeli operation, planned well in advance, was called "Operation Peace for Galilee."
Initially, the Israeli government had announced that its intention was to penetrate just 40km into Lebanese territory. The military command, however, under the orders of Defence Minister Ariel Sharon, decided to execute a more ambitious project that Sharon had prepared several months earlier. Having occupied the south of the country and destroyed any Palestinian and Lebanese resistance there, simultaneously committing a series of violations against the civilian population, Israeli troops proceeded to penetrate as far as Beirut. By 18 June 1982 they had surrounded the Palestine Liberation Organisation's (PLO) armed forces in the western part of the Lebanese capital.
According to Lebanese statistics, the Israeli offensive, particularly the intensive shelling of Beirut, caused 18,000 deaths and 30,000 injuries, mostly among civilians.
After two months of fighting, a cease-fire was negotiated through the mediation of United States Envoy Philip Habib. Under the terms of these negotiations, the PLO was to evacuate Beirut under the supervision of a multinational force deployed in the evacuated part of the town. The Habib Accords envisaged that West Beirut would subsequently be under the control of the Lebanese army, and the Palestinian leadership was given guarantees by the Americans regarding the security of civilians in the camps after their departure.
The evacuation of the PLO ended on 1 September 1982.
On 10 September 1982, the multinational forces left Beirut. The next day, Sharon announced that "2,000 terrorists" had remained inside the Palestinian refugee camps around Beirut. On Wednesday 15 September, the day after the assassination of President-elect Bashir Gemayel, the Israeli army occupied West Beirut, "encircling and sealing" the camps of Sabra and Shatila, which were inhabited by Lebanese and Palestinian civilians, the entirety of armed resistors (more than 14,000 people) having evacuated Beirut and its suburbs.
Historians and journalists agree that it was probably during a meeting between Ariel Sharon and Bashir Gemayel in Bikfaya on 12 September that an agreement was made authorizing the "Lebanese forces" to "mop up" these Palestinian camps. Sharon had already announced, on 9 July 1982, his intention to send the Phalangist forces into West Beirut, and in his autobiography he confirms having negotiated the operation during his meeting with Gemayel in Bikfaya.
According to statements made by Ariel Sharon on 22 September 1982 in the Knesset (Israeli parliament), the decision that the Phalangists should enter the refugee camps was made on Wednesday, 15 September 1982 at 15.30. Also according to General Sharon, the Israeli Command had received the following instruction: "[t]he Tsahal forces are forbidden to enter the refugee camps. The 'mopping-up' of the camps will be carried out by the Phalanges or the Lebanese army."
By dawn on 15 September 1982, Israeli fighter-bombers were flying low over West Beirut and Israeli troops had secured their entry. From 9 am, General Sharon was present to personally direct the Israeli penetration, installing himself in the general army area at the Kuwait embassy junction situated at the edge of Shatila camp. From the roof of this six-story building, it was possible to observe the town and the camps of Sabra and Shatila clearly.
By midday, the camps of Sabra and Shatila - in reality a single zone of refugee camps in the south of West Beirut - were surrounded by Israeli tanks and soldiers, who had installed checkpoints all around the camps in order to monitor the entry or exit of any person. During the late afternoon and evening, the camps were shelled.
By Thursday 16 September 1982, the Israeli army controlled West Beirut. In a press release, the Israeli military spokesperson declared, "Tsahal controls all strategic points in Beirut. The refugee camps, inside which there is a concentration of terrorists, are surrounded and sealed." On the morning of 16 September, the following order was issued by the army high command: " [t]he searching and mopping up of the camps will be done by the Phalangists/Lebanese army."
During the course of the morning, shells were being fired down at the camps from higher elevations and Israeli snipers were shooting at people in the streets. By approximately midday, the Israeli military command gave the Phalangist militia the green light to enter the refugee camps. Shortly after 5pm, a unit of approximately 150 Phalangists entered Shatila camp from the south and south-west.
At this point, General Amir Drori telephoned Ariel Sharon and announced, "Our friends are advancing into the camps. We have co-ordinated their entry." To which Sharon replied, "Congratulations! Our friends' operation is approved."
For the next 40 hours the Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the "encircled and sealed" camps. These actions, accompanied or followed by systematic roundups, backed or reinforced by the Israeli army, resulted in dozens of disappearances.
The Israeli army had full knowledge of what was going on in the camps right up until the morning of Saturday 18 September 1982, and its leaders were in continuous contact with the militia leaders who perpetrated the massacre. Yet they never intervened. Instead, they prevented civilians from escaping the camps and arranged for the camps to be illuminated throughout the night by flares launched into the sky from helicopters and mortars.
The count of victims varies between 700 (the official Israeli figure) and 3,500 (in the inquiry launched by the Israeli journalist Amnon Kapeliouk). The exact figure can never be determined because, in addition to the approximately 1,000 people who were buried in communal graves by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) or in the cemeteries of Beirut by members of their families, a large number of corpses were buried beneath bulldozed buildings by the militia members themselves. Also, particularly on 17 and 18 September, hundreds of people were carried away alive in trucks towards unknown destinations, never to return.
The victims and survivors of the massacres have never been deemed entitled to a formal investigation of the tragedy, whether in Lebanon, Israel, or elsewhere. After 400,000 Israelis took to the streets in protest once news of the massacre was broadcast by the international media, the Israeli parliament (Knesset) named a commission of inquiry, to be presided over by Yitzhak Kahan, in September 1982. In spite of the limitations of the Commission's mandate (limited because it was a political rather than a judicial mandate and because the voices and demands of the victims were completely ignored), the Commission concluded that the Minister of Defence was personally responsible for the massacres.
Upon the insistence of the Commission, and the demonstrations that followed its report, Sharon resigned from his post of Minister of Defence but remained in the government as Minister without Portfolio. It is worth noting that during the Peace Now demonstration immediately prior to Sharon's "resignation," demonstrators were attacked with grenades, resulting in the death of a young demonstrator.
Several non-official inquiries and reports, including those of Sean MacBride and of the Nordic Commission, based mainly on the testimony of western eyewitnesses, as well as other pieces of journalistic and historical research, have assembled vital pieces of information.
Despite evidence of what the UN Security Council described as a "criminal massacre," and the ranking of the Sabra and Shatila massacres in humankind's collective memory as among the most heinous crimes of the 20th century, the man found "personally responsible" for this crime, as well as his associates and the people who carried out the massacres, have never been pursued or punished. In fact the warlord Ariel Sharon was proudly rewarded for his actions with the Premiership of his country and was welcomed into the White House with open arms, as a man of peace.
In 1984, Israeli journalists Schiff and Ya'ari concluded their chapter on the massacre with this sobering reflection: "If there is a moral to the painful episode of Sabra and Shatila, it has yet to be acknowledged." The reality of this impunity remains true to this day.
The United Nations Security Council condemned the massacre with Resolution 521 (19 September 1982). This condemnation was followed by a 16 December 1982 General Assembly resolution qualifying the massacre as an "act of genocide."
The perpetual acts of genocide carried out in the 27 years since Sabra and Shatilla are countless. Ask yourself how many more have died, how many more have been butchered under the tracks of armoured caterpillar bulldozers, been picked off by snipers, or been blown to pieces by missiles fired from Israeli helicopters.
The truth of the matter is that the blood of the Palestinians is cheap and plentiful, there are no remembrance ceremonies for those who died, no ringing of any bells, no remembrance of the fathers, mothers, sons and daughters, whose lives were taken in such a savage and brutal manner.
Sources of further information:
The Massacre
· After 25 years, who remembers?, Franklin Lamb (14 September 2007)
· Book Review: Sabra and Shatila 1982, Victor Kattan (21 May 2005)
· Black is for mourning, to say "we're not conforming," to war crimes in the Middle East, Laurie King-Irani (19 May 2004)
· Remembering Sabra and Shatila -- and Atoning, Ellen Siegel (4 October 2003)
· 21 Septembers Ago, Laurie King-Irani (16 September 2003)
· Massacres Don't "Just Happen", Laurie King-Irani (18 September 2002)
· Transcript - "The Accused" - Panorama, BBC (17 June 2001)
The Legal Case
· 2003: A year of US and Israeli defiance of International Law, Laurie King-Irani (2 January 2004)
· Belgian court to rule whether Sabra and Shatila plaintiffs can proceed, Nicholas Blanford (17 September 2003)
· On learning lessons: Belgium's universal jurisdiction law under threat, Laurie King-Irani (24 June 2003)
· The Sabra and Shatila Case in Belgium: A Guide for the Perplexed, Laurie King-Irani (16 June 2003)
· Sharon Trial: 12 February 2003 decision of Belgian Supreme Court explained (19 February 2003)
· Belgium's Challenge to War's Ancient Calculus, Laurie King-Irani (17 February 2003)
· Putting Sharon on Trial: Why Belgium is doing the right thing, Ali Abunimah (14 February 2003)
· Open letter to Netanyahu from massacre survivors' legal team (13 February 2003)
· International justice for Sabra and Chatila victims, Amnesty International (25 September 2002)
· Dismay at Sharon case decision, Amnesty International (26 June 2002)
· Prevent another Massacre: End Ariel Sharon's Impunity for War Crimes Now, Laurie King-Irani (12 March 2002)
Related Links
· Security Council Resolution 521
· Ariel Sharon -- Israel's Prime Minister
· Refugees
Websites
· International Campaign for Justice for the Victims of Sabra & Shatila
Twitter
Facebook


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For every action there is a reaction
Submitted by Damour Mon Amour on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 7:09am.Yes this incident was horrendous but what is not mentioned is that it was done in revenge for the massacre of the Christian city of Damour, north of Beirut. The Israelis did not take part in the Sabra and Shatilla incidents but could certainly have done more to stop the Lebanese Phalangists from entering the camps.
Several months earlier the PLO had bombarded Damour and when the bombardment was finished they went into the city and massacred all those who were left alive . Women and children were herded into chuches which were then set on fire, the men were stood against walls and executed - it was horrific. Not a living soul was left in the town. Many of these Christians were ones that had found their way down to Lebanon after having survived the 1900's Christian genocide in Turkey as Lebanon in those days was mainly Christian and they thought it was a safe haven.
As the PLO had been living and hiding in Sabra and Shatilla the Phalangists raided them in reprisal. The whole thing was not just an isolated incident, but has to be put in historical context to be understood properly - noone comes out of these massacres with any honour.
Who remembers Damour?
‘’ Damour Mon Amour ’’ is
Submitted by K Urban on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 7:44am.‘’ Damour Mon Amour ’’ is cooking up grossly unacceptable excuses for Israel.
Again today we read of more damning reports of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians.
Deliberate, organized, mechanised, wholesale murder.
Nazi style.
Further evidence, unfortunately, of the extent to which Jewish leadership have eroded the moral standing of their own people.
The religion that says that the family is at its core is now is now bombing families.
Links:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/6194723/Isra...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/un-says-israel-shoul...
(Once again, silence from that biased Murdoch paper The Times.
So much for ''liberal democracy'' when newspapers are owned by businessmen.)
Cooking up stories to justify
Submitted by Shan on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 9:26am.Cooking up stories to justify the massacres will not help,there was no armenian genocide, it was armenian traitors who had sided with russia in attacking the turks ,when the russians took over areas the armenians killed turks and kurds men-women and children.
when the turks liberated the areas from russia then turks and kurds took revenge.
around 300,000 turks-kurds and armenians died in the wars bewteen russia and turkey.
As for genocdies so called christiians win hands down when it comes to exterminations of people,so lets not go down that road, why not talk about the genocide here and now in iraq-afghan-kashmir-palestine and chechnya.
Yes i remember the war on lebanon as a child and it is the first point of slaughter of muslims which goes onto this day.
The PLO did not go around
Submitted by Safina on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 10:45am.The PLO did not go around killing Christians you Zionist moron, the head of the PLO Arafat was married to a Christian, and it is a secular organisation - not a Muslim one, with many Christians supporting it.
Stop being such a lying twat and justifying murder, else others will start to say why the Jews deserve the Holocaust!
Genocide
Submitted by Damour Mon Amour on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 7:13am.Sorry - that was meant to read the genocide of the Christians of Armenia by the Ottoman Turks.
See how cleverly the paid
Submitted by Fraud Exposer on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 10:51am.See how cleverly the paid Zionists try to undermine a factual article by their filthy lies.
They are trying to justify slaughter and genocide.
You Zionists make me sick.
Ah the Tit for Tat of Massacre Allegations
Submitted by Q on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 12:49pm.This is like standing in the middle of amarket square with a number of butchers pointing at each other and accusing the others of being bloody.
Sabra-Shatilla happened,
Damour happened,
Karantina happened,
Hama happened,
Deir Yassin happened,
Hebron happened,
Armenia happened,
Beisan happened,
to name but a few.
Just how many more massacres must happen until we end this bloody cycle of butchery?
Oh, silly me - of course - it ends when we are all dead. Clever!
Damour Info
Submitted by Q on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 1:21pm."Damour massacre - The Perpetrators
There are a number of conflicting claims as to exactly which militias participated in the massacre. It is clear that it was a Palestinian-led attack, but some sources indicate a heavy participation of Syrian-backed Palestinian factions. This much is clear: the attack and subsequent massacre was carried out by a mixed crew of Palestinian militiamen aligned with the Lebanese National Movement (LNM).
According to Robert Fisk, the attack was led by Col. Abu Musa, a senior commander of the PLO and Fatah, but later leader of the anti-Arafatist Fatah Uprising faction. This page, however, names Zuheir Mohsen, leader of as-Sa'iqa, a Damascus-based Palestinian faction operating directly on Syrian orders, and claims that he was known in Lebanon as the "Butcher from Damour".
The bulk of the attacking forces seems to have been composed by brigades from the Palestinian Liberation Army[9] and as-Sa'iqa, as well as other militias including Fatah. Some sources also mention the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) and the Muslim Lebanese al-Murabitun militia among the attackers. There are also reports that mercenaries or militiamen from Syria, Jordan, Libya, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan were part of the assault, and even Japanese commandos who were training in Lebanon [10]."
Here are a couple of links to provide source & flavour.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Damour_massacre_-_The_Perpetrators/i...
http://www.lebaneseforces.com/blastfromthepast002.aspe
"Submitted by Safina on Wed,
Submitted by DermotM on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 6:47pm."Submitted by Safina on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 11:45am.
The PLO did not go around killing Christians you Zionist moron"
The PLO did indeed fight the moronite christians in Lebanon especially the Phalange forces, Robert Fisks book "Pity the Nation" highlighted their fighting in detail, the fact that Arafat was married to a Christian doesnt change the fact that the PLO killed christians in the way that the Phalangists killed Muslims.
"Cooking up stories to justify the massacres will not help,there was no armenian genocide"
Consult some proper history books, again Robert Fisk wrote about the genocide in his book the great war for civilisation, you should also consult with the pulitzer prize winning book a problem from hell by Samantha Power.
"As for genocdies so called christiians win hands down when it comes to exterminations of people,so lets not go down that road,"
Many large ethic groups have commited genocide, its unfair and innaccurate to claim christians somehow have a monoply on violence.
Christians have commited many terrible deeds such as the mass killings in the Americas and Australia.
Muslims have commited mass killing against the Hindus and against Christians during the early 20th century in Turkey
Atheists(my group) had Stalin and Mao
Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism all killed there fare share of people under various chinese regiemes such as the Zunghars
The Shamanist Mongols again killed huge numbers of people
why not talk about the genocide here and now in iraq-afghan-kashmir-palestine and chechnya."
Cant help but notice you left out Darfur, also what genocide in Afghanistan are you on about most afghans consider the invasion to have been a good thing so your accusations of genocide are a bit off.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_02_09afghan_poll_2009.pdf
yes yes.. Just the kind of
Submitted by shimon on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 7:14pm.yes yes.. Just the kind of story to get the money seeking Zionist liars onto their keyboards. Yes.. For those who have much to hide have much to lie to try and cover their shame...
More "Zionist" Lie that Blacken the Virtuous Name of Islam
Submitted by Q on Wed, 16/09/2009 - 11:20pm.More "Zionist" Lies that Blacken the Virtuous Name of Islam. Of course none of these events happened because under Islamic rule Dhimmi were always treated with extreme kindness.
6,000 Jews massacred in Fez in 1033; hundreds of Jews slaughtered in Muslim Cordoba between 1010 and 1015; 4,000 Jews killed in Muslim riots in Grenada in 1066, wiping out the entire community; the Berber Muslim Almohad depredations of Jews (and Christians) in Spain and North Africa between 1130 and 1232, which killed tens of thousands, while forcibly converting thousands more, and subjecting the forced Jewish converts to Islam to a Muslim Inquisition; the 1291 pogroms in Baghdad and its environs, which killed (at least) hundreds of Jews; the 1465 pogrom against the Jews of Fez; the late 15th century pogrom against the Jews of the Southern Moroccan oasis town of Touat; the 1679 pogroms against, and then expulsion of 10,000 Jews from Sanaa, Yemen to the unlivable, hot and dry Plain of Tihama, from which only 1,000 returned alive, in 1680, 90% having died from exposure; recurring Muslim anti-Jewish violence-including pogroms and forced conversions-throughout the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, which rendered areas of Iran (for example, Tabriz) Judenrein; the 1834 pogrom in Safed where raging Muslim mobs killed and grievously wounded hundreds of Jews; the 1888 massacres of Jews in Isfahan and Shiraz, Iran; the 1910 pogrom in Shiraz; the pillage and destruction of the Casablanca, Morocco ghetto in 1907; the pillage of the ghetto of Fez Morocco in 1912; the government sanctioned anti-Jewish pogroms by Muslims in Turkish Eastern Thrace during June-July, 1934 which ethnically cleansed at least 3000 Jews; and the series of pogroms, expropriations, and finally mass expulsions of some 900,000 Jews from Arab Muslim nations, beginning in 1941 in Baghdad (the murderous "Farhud," during which 600 Jews were murdered, and at least 12,000 pillaged )-eventually involving cities and towns in Egypt, Morocco, Libya, Syria, Aden, Bahrain, and culminating in 1967 in Tunisia-that accompanied the planning and creation of a Jewish state, Israel.
Algiers: 1805 – 40 Jews murdered.
Granada: 1066 – More than 5,000 Jews murdered during Arab riots
Morocco: 1864 – 1880 – More than 500Jews murdered in 16 years, often in broad daylight in the main streets.
Tripolitania: 1897 – Synagogues plundered throughout . Several Jews murdered.
Fez: 1033 – More than 6,000 Jews massacred.
Sefrou: - 1880 – Jewish quarter pillaged by Muslims, after a flood in which 54 Jews died.
Demnat: - 1875 – 20 Jews murdered; 1884 – Several Jews murdered amid much persecution
Marakesh: 1232 – The Jews massacred. Anti-Jewish persecutions throughout Morocco.
Tunis: 800 AD – Jews forced to pay an annual tax which constituted a substantial income for the State; 1145 k- Jews forced to convert or to leave; 1250 – Jews forced to wear distinguishing marks on cloths; 1869 – 18 Jews murdered by Muslims within a few months.
Kairawan: 1016 – the Jews of the city persecuted and forced to leave. Returning later they were again expelled.
Tunisia: 1150’s & 1270’s: Fierce anti-Jewish persecutions.
Jerba: 1864 – Arab bands pillage the Jewish communities, burn and loot synagogues, and rape the women.
Libya: 1588 – Forcible conversion of many Jews to Islam; 1785 – Ali Gurzi, Pasha persecutes Jews. Many hundred murdered; 1860 – Harsh anti-Jewish measures. All Jews leaving forced to pay a heavy exit fine (except those going to Palestine)
In light of the fairy tales published by Routledge, as illustrated above, it is no wonder that the non-Muslim world is Islamophobic. We must do everything in our power to extinguish this defamation of Islam. You don't suppose there is a shred of truth in it do you?
Nice list, now list Palestinians who are dead
Submitted by Fist of fury on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 9:23am.Nice list, now list Palestinians who are dead
A Nice List??
Submitted by Q on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 10:09am.It is a shameful list and I submitted it to illustrate the context in which this endless cycle of violence exists.
There is a culture of self-deception that exists and only we can bring that to an end. Lying to ourselves about what has occurred in the past doesn't weaken the enemy, it weakens us!
We accuse the Zionists of establishing an apartheid state, when prior to Tanzimat across the Khalifat Muslims maintained societies based on religiously justified apartheid. (It is not a coincidence that the Boers adopted the word Kaffir to described coloureds & blacks, despised and subordinate peoples) There are those today who want to go back to those days, read the Hamas Charter to get a flavour of it. If it was wrong for White South Africans and is wrong for Zionists, then it must be wrong for us and wrong in the past.
We can never demand of the Zionists that they admit their crimes against the Palestinians if we cannot admit our crimes against them. They simply accuse us of hypocrisy, and rightly so.
Pathetically seeking justification for the violence against Jews and Christians on the basis that somewhere else in the world some Jews or Christians did something renders us no better than the EDL / BNP / C18 or any other Islamophobic group. In fact it strengthens their claims.
We face a painful journey, that we have to commence. That journey is one of self-examination and self-criticism. But until we start that journey and look at ourselves as community critically, we can never hope to progress socially. One only has to look at the backwardness of Muslim societies around the world see the truth of this. A millenia ago we represnted the pinnacle of intellectual advancement, today we languish in ignorance, corruption and poverty. As a collective we are terrified of the truth to the point that the mukhabarat societies send out their killers to slaughter those who dare question the myths we live.
In your bleeding plea for
Submitted by Anonymous Coward on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 9:23am.In your bleeding plea for 'us' to accept blame, I notice, you have not given the list of Muslims and Christians killed by Jewish extremist Zionists in Israel.
I am not interested in your one sided argument. you created a list where you blamed the Muslims, now give us the list of all the Palestinian, men, women and children killed by the Zionists. Perhaps another list for the war in Iraq pushed by neo-con Zionists (which cannot be denied), and maybe another list of how many millions of Muslims will be killed if Israel gets it's way and pushes American into a war with Iran?
Now stop beating around the bush.
Nice work Q so after going
Submitted by Shan on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 11:34am.Nice work Q so after going over 1300 years of history in which you make up numbers as you go, you come to the modern era.
so you using your own created victimhood to justify the murder-torture-sodomy-rape-ethnic cleansing and daily humiliation of millions of people for the last 60 years.
so using your logic when the boot is on the other foot, then will jews deserve everything they get as payback ?.
As for forcible conversion no muslim will ever do that, as he would be putting himslef in hell for there is no compulsion in islam, I do not think any muslim would put himself in hell for any kaffir.
murder-torture-sodomy-rape-ethnic cleansing
Submitted by Q on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 12:56pm.Shan,
of course it is a figment of my imagination, the period described was paradise on earth. Of course no one was ever forcibly converted, they always had a choice, they could be killed instead and discover if their existing beliefs in the afterlife were true. As for the kaffir women who willing watched as their husbands / fathers / brothers were slaughtered and then equally willingly became the concubines of the killers. Some women had strange urges in the past. No compulsion evidently so it couldn't be called rape. & then the slavery, I suppose once someone was a slave they ceased to be a person so using them in any perverted way didn't count as a sin did it?
In answer to your question I think the Christians have it about right: an eye for an eye only results in a world full of blind people!
Can you explain why it is that you have this obsession with "murder-torture-sodomy-rape-ethnic cleansing". I get the murder-torture-ethnic cleansing bit, but not the rape & sodomy. It seems to be an unhealthy obsession.
The question should be
Submitted by Shan on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 3:27pm.The question should be answered by you as a zionist who defends the actions of people who sodomise and rape as weapon of war to break those under occupation.
Lets do something practical as your claims of eternal victimhood from 1300 years ago cannot be verified,but the killings-tortures-sodomy-rapes and daily humilation is happening here and now in palestine-iraq-afghan-chechnya and kashmir, lets stop these occupations if you have any care for goyims or is that the reaity,goyims are like cattle to be used.
The fact that your presidents and army generals go aroud raping fellow jews should be enough evidence to show what those goyims have to face under occupation.
will you like a good trained zionist keep repeating propaganda or condemn the crimes being carried out daily against the palestinains or are you prepared to be paid back inkind.
Astonishing claim
Submitted by Q on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 9:15am.Quote
"The fact that your presidents and army generals go aroud raping fellow jews should be enough evidence to show what those goyims have to face under occupation."
Can you for once provide some evidence of this? It seems that you have an unhealthy obsession with rape & sodomy.
Your presidents name is
Submitted by Shan on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 2:25pm.Your presidents name is katsav and the army general i do not recall his name, but just go and check the criminals records bureau in israel and you shall find they have been prosecuted for rape and sexual offences.
Certainly neither my president or general
Submitted by Q on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 2:54pm.While the two are not mine contrary to what you might suggest, the reports are disturbing in 2 ways:
1. That any powerful person should their position to sexually abuse someone else is troubling and wrong.
2: Sexual exploitation occurs across the ME, but sadly most countries do not have strong enough systems in place to enable their citizens to complain.
In Israel the women that Katsav abused could go to the courts & police and seek redress of sorts. In virtually every other country in the ME no woman would be stupid enough to do the same, such is the nature of the dictatorships that we live in. It is a painful fact for those that live in the region that the oppressive enemy affords its own people better rights than the regional governments afford theirs. In the PNA & Hamas controlled areas there isn't even a judiciary that meets international standards.
Would the regional press even report complaints of abuse by the president? Can you honestly imagine it in Syria, Egypt, Saudi, or wherever?
Israel to blame
Submitted by Anonymous Coward on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 5:13pm.I agree, that is because Israel does not allow the Palestinians to have their own life, liberty and land, we cant blame them for not having the infrastructure that a state should have to protect its citizens.
As for the other dictators, if America stopped backing them we might have courts that really look out of Muslims instead of regimes backed by the west that kill them.
Of course the Zionists are to blame - again
Submitted by Q on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 9:34pm.Of course you are right. It is the fault of the Zionists that the PNA doesn't conduct itself in a manner which accords to basic standards, that the Palestinian courts deny fundamental rights, that the PNA police allow extra-judicial executions. It's the Zionist fault that appintments to publuic sector positions is based on connections and not merit. Its the Zionists fault that the Palestinian leadership routinely steals from the people. One only has to read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to understand that the Zionist control everything, which by extension must include MPACUK.
Silly me, it's all so clear now!
Eternal Victimhood
Submitted by Q on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 10:16am.Yes, there has been eternal victimhood, and the weak have been the victims.
This is not about whether you are Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain or Animist, it is about power. The ancestors of every Muslims, Christian, Jew etc were something else before their conversion(s).
The adage that "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely" applies here. In societies where there are no structures to provide security and equality in all things and a dependency upon patronage of some kind, there will be abuses. The Palestinian who relies on the good temper of an IDF soldier at a crossing is weak. The woman who relies on her husbands permission is weak. The black person who relies on a white person's goodwill is weak. The subordinate cousin in a tribe is weak. The list goes on.
In the progression from feudalism to democracy the elite relinquish power because they come to realise that the democratic collective is more efficient, productive and secure. In feudalism / tribalism the elite lives in fear of overthrow, and thus ensures that there is a hierarchy which oppresses subordinates. In order to secure that obedience the elites ensure that their immediate underlings have a small slice of the pie and thus have something to lose if the hierarchy collapses. The people at the bottom have nothing.
Thus the secret police man who tortures on behalf of the various ME dictatorships has more wealth than the poor, but actually fears that they may rise up and take it from him. So he justifies his actions.
The dumb mob, humiliated everyday by the elites, that storm through the ghetto to attack a powerless minority satiate their frustrations and fears through the oppression of others. (EDL / BNP / C18)
The opportunist convert, who finds themselves the object of accusations of collaborator and traitor, buries their shame and fear of their new brethren through violence upon his or her former coreligionists.
Until we recognise the impact of the daily violence that our societies perpetrate upon the weak, and acknowledge our own complicity in this oppression we can never move forward towards peace. The constant reversion to violence is purposeless. Guns can't feed or educate children. Bombs can't plough fields. If we want the violence to stop then we too must stop our own violence - violence towards our partners, our children, our neighbours, our subordinates and our enemies. Most of all we be stop oppressing ourselves through dishonesty, for ultimately this is a form of violence upon our souls.
SAFINA
Submitted by Damour Mon Amour on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 2:46am.I suggest you actually look up the Damour massacre on Whikipedia or some other site - you will find that it was the PLO who wiped out Damour. They also left a picture of Arafat and Fatah murals on the walls that were left standing.
"Q" has it right - these tit for tat massacres are a stain on the modern world.
Shan - yes let us forget about the genocide in Darfur, the Congo and the killing of Christians in Muslim countries and just concentrate on the muslims that are being killed by overseas armies. After all, it is 2009 and the only people who count are muslims.
Since the issue was genocide
Submitted by Shan on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 9:16am.Since the issue was genocide of muslims i stated the genocides happening in question.
Congo is nicely hidden as america and its interest are catered for by the government otherwise how can the slaughter and rape of more than 5 million here and now be sidelined.
why are the hollywood celebs quite about this, does it have anything to do with its christians killing christians,as for darfur it is a war that was created by america and its alies to get china out of sudan,these people are being used for power politics, i have personal experience of sudanese refugees and they have stated this is a foreign supported terrorism to control sudans resources.
The death of one innocent person is bad,but the people who arm and finance these terrorists should be held accountable.
As for murders of people in nations they happen allover the world,if you wish to put religion into it then i can say muslims are murdered all over europe by christians, that is a fact like christians in muslims countries are killed.
Criminals will kill for whatever reason they have, so lets not go down that road, deal with the genocides here and now by the nations in mentioned.
Why dont the Israelis just
Submitted by F Cockburn on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 5:58am.Why dont the Israelis just import Zyklon B gas and the shower rooms from Germany stick the rest of us in there.
They're only one step away from that with all this murder and rape.
Murder and rape. Ape the
Submitted by K. Urban on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 6:01am.Murder and rape.
Ape the Nazis.
Urban & Cockburn Rape?
Submitted by Q on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 10:35am.There is no dispute that the IDF killed large numbers of people in circumstances in which it is alleged that war crimes and crimes against humaity occurred.
But why do you have this obsession with rape. There is no allegation of rape against the IDF.
Since the 1940's there have been repeated unfounded allegations of rape by Haganah / Irgun / IDL starting with the Deir Yassin Massacre. The surviviors of the massacre denied there had been any rape. Yet the propoganda machine spread the lie. The hoped impact was that it would instill anger and a desire for revenge, instead it caused complete panic which the Zionists exploited to clear the land of Palestinians.
So will you kindly stop ascribing to the IDF your desires emanating from your sexual frustrations, and stick to factual statements.
Lying For Israel
Submitted by Taz on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 10:30pm.Read The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine by Prof Ilan Pape. You dumb lying scum.
Ilan Pappe
Submitted by Q on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 9:50am.Ilan Pappe repeats unsubstantiated allegations and ignores statements made by survivors to the UN. Mr. Pappe in doing this extends the Mapai / Mapam 1948 strategy of defaming Herut / Irgun to be able to exclude them from power in the subsequent Zionist state.
Mr. Pappe relies on accounts from "witnesses" who either weren't there or had their own agenda.
Saeb Erekat acknowledged that the AHC propaganda machine had exaggerated Deir Yassin in the hope of inflaming passions and the desire for revenge. Unfortunately the average Palestinian had no desire to go to war and were justifiably frighten of the Zionists. The consequence was mass panic.
We should learn the lessons of the past and stop exaggerating and fantasising as it merely causes our own people anxiety. It does not weaken the Zionists in any way.
No allegation of rape?
Submitted by K. Urban on Sat, 19/09/2009 - 8:20am.Submitted by Q on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 11:35am :-
''There is no allegation of rape against the IDF.''
''So will you kindly stop ascribing to the IDF your desires emanating from your sexual frustrations, and stick to factual statements.''
Strong outrage from that bastion of morality the anonymous ''Q'' to support that bunch of murderers and torturers who are the Israeli IDF (Infants Disabling Force)
Will ''Q'' now be joining the Yorkshire Ripper's defence team?
He'll be the only one in the ''queue''
Love it.. true to form, Q's
Submitted by Shimon on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 10:49am.Love it.. true to form, Q's responses are all that can be expected from such pitiful zionists (desperately typing away to earn their crust). Lets see.. what theme has been picked from the manual this time.. oh yes.. Q's 'historical' suffering will somehow be used to justify the zionazi complicity in murder & torture in sabra and shatilla. Seems more than reasonable. I mean, considering the historical suffering inflicted upon the jews by Christians during the Medieval period in Europe and during Nazi rule in Germany its only a matter of time before the illegal state known as Israel will inflict its revenge on the 'Christian West'... i wonder what it will use... may be the illegal stockpile of 200 nuclear warheads in the negev desert.
Denial only leads to reliving the past
Submitted by Q on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 11:19am.Shimon what happen during the Sabra Shatilla Massacre was criminal, no one disputes it. But it occurred in the context of a well established pattern of violence.
The prupose of listing the violent acts against Jews and Christians was to illustrate the degree to which violence has become acculturalised, and the degree to which we are in denial.
Every time we deny the violence that we have perpetrated, regardless of whether that was last year or a thousand years ago, we legitimise the violence against us.
The Mizrachi Jews who compose the majority in the IDF are not from Europe, they are form the Middle East. Their parents / grandparents / ancestors lived under Islamic rule. If we were them and considering how they were treated, how would we behave towards Muslims? One only has to look at this site andmany others to see that we would be screaming for revenge.
The lists of acts of violence is as much part of our history as the colonial / imperial actions are part of British history. When we deny it, it is like the British denying slavery and racism. The difference is that the british have owned up to their past and, perhaops inadequately, attempted to make some recompense. We on the other hand are still denying it happened.
If we deny our own violence, we inherently legitimsie the violence against us. Thus we have the capacity to end it, and by not choosing that option we elect to continue it.
Typing away to earn the daily
Submitted by Shimon on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 11:41am.Typing away to earn the daily crust eh Q? Is this really the best you can do. At this rate your zionist paymasters are going to take you off the payroll - or do you get paid regardless of what rubbish you type. I suggest you apply for a real job. You know, the one's where honest hard work has to be put in. The rewards may not be as great but you'll feel much better for it.
Who Needs the Advice of a Self-Loathing Jew?
Submitted by Q on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 12:00pm.Shimon ben ??? ( or whatever name you cited at your Bar Mitzvah)
who needs the advice or commentary of an obvious self-loathing Jew like yourself? Grow up or go away!
In fact the hard-line Zionists want nothing better than the Arabs to continue with the policy of denial and the resulting violence. The Zionists love it when we don't learn from the past, because they then know that we will repeat the same stupid mistakes. They then know that they can steadily seize more & more land while we absurdly deny that which the rest of the world knows to be true. And our denial condemns us to being unable to break out of the current impasse. So long as we do not take responsibility for our own actions then we are condemned to subservience.
You may wish to remain an adolscent, with Ima ve Abba paying for your screw ups, desperate to suck up the blood of other victims so that you can feel something in your otherwise cushioned existance. But the rest of us have to deal with the real world and take responsibility for ourselves.
There's certainly nothing
Submitted by Shimon on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 3:59pm.There's certainly nothing self loathing about me. You on the other hand do need to seek psychological help as your rantings reveal you to be someone who comes across as more than just a little unhinged.
Q The Apologist
Submitted by Taz on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 10:27pm.What a load of old tosh. Excuses for Zionist violence against unarmed refugees. Dirty scum. Pointless Habara (lying for Israel).
Shimon strikes as a
Submitted by DermotM on Thu, 17/09/2009 - 7:48pm.Shimon strikes as a individual who has in a way brain-washed himself to having a very fundamentalist view of the world,
Q is making some very balanced points but it just doesnt seem to register, for you its black or white, youre either a good up-standing muslim or a no-good zionist. Why cant you have a more nuanced view of the world.
To K. Urban
Submitted by Damour Mon Amour on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 7:51am.I was not justifying the actions of Israel, I was just trying to put things in context - there is a massive difference. However I can see there are people like you who would prefer to have tunnel vision and not look at the whole picture - this really occludes ones thinking!
The Nazi style was to corral people in their places of worship and set them on fire, shoot the people on the edges of ravines or the graves they had dug themselves, gas them or work them to death in slave labour camps. We must be reading different news sources - perhaps you could direct me to the sources you use that are reporting Nazi style genocide of the Palestinians by the Israelis?
Fraud exposer - slaughter and genocide are never justifiable and I resent the fact that your post states that I think they are!
Shan - if as you say, the IDF sodomise and rape the Palestinians could you please provide a link? Nowhere, in any reputable media source have I ever seen this reported nor have I ever heard the Palestinians accuse the Israelis of this but you obviously have evidence that these things happen. Or is it a case of repeat the lie often and loud enough so that the uneducated masses will believe it? P.S. The myth about there being no compulsion in religion has been debunked for centuries - everybody who has read the Quran knows it was later abrogated. I am amazed when people still trot put this fable to deny what accredited history admits. Fortunately, people did record these happenings - they are not fairy tales altho' a lot of muslims would like to think they were. A lot of this scholarship is actually recorded by Islam and the Arabs themselves.
Do you think the criminal
Submitted by Shan on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 9:25am.Do you think the criminal occupiers will admit to sodomising and raping those under occupation,once the occupation is ended,just like the nazis the zionists will either pay in kind or like the racists in south africa admit to what they did and ask for forgiveness.
As said before me if your presidents and army generals cannot stop raping fellow jews what the occupied have to face is worser.
When ever those raped or sodomised in israeli gulags speak up, its is the gulag masters who investigate and as always the allegations are not proven.
Its like asking a rapist to investigate himself to find proof whether he raped the accuser or not.
''The Nazi style was to
Submitted by K. Urban on Tue, 22/09/2009 - 1:48pm.''The Nazi style was to corral people in their places of worship and set them on fire, shoot the people on the edges of ravines or the graves they had dug themselves, gas them or work them to death in slave labour camps.''
The Jewish style is to imprison people in small area of land and bomb them senseless with banned weapons of destruction.
And to bribe Western politicians to turn a blind eye for 60 years.
Thus corrupting our values,our way, and our vision of life.
Sexual Torture - Rape & Sodomy
Submitted by Q on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 11:19am.The repeated allegations of rape & sodomy, raise the very real issue of sexual torture across the world. To our eternal shame sexual violence perpetrated by interrogators, warders and inmates in prisons throughout the ME is a real issue. Not only is this a fundamental violation of the person, and a crime, it also places the victim at fuirther risk due to the prejudices prevalent in the region. With few exceptions homosexuals (male & female) are subject to unacceptable abuses and denials of their human rights. If identified as such they can be subject to appalling violence at the hands of those around them, irrespective of whether they are practicing homosexuals or not. Further if they complain they may be subject to the sanction of the law and custom, including corporal and capital punishments, if it is asserted that they consented to the act. And as many of the perpetrators of homosexual rape are officers of the state or "trustees" they are more likely to be believed.
In the case of heterosexual women who are raped, they may be more fearful of the consequences of seeking redress than the rape itself. How many women have been murdered because they have allegedly brought shame upon the familiy by allowing themselves to be raped?
This by extension includes homosexual women (& man) forced into marriages by custom who are required to participate in sexual acts they do not desire. They are perforce raped.
The allegation of rape and sodomy carry powerful social impulses beyond the simple accusation of criminality against the alleged rapaist or sodomite. The threat is not simply to the perpetrator of the crime, but also to their victim. In communities where shame is a powerful and overriding driver the accuser of rape & sodomy has a particular responsibility to ensure that their allegation is factual as the consequence may endanger both the alleged perpetrator & victim.
Q lets end the occupation of
Submitted by Shan on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 11:48am.Q lets end the occupation of palestine and then we shall deal with the worlds problems,lets take one step at a time.
Depends Upon What You Mean
Submitted by Q on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 2:43pm.Ending the occupation depends upon what you mean by the "occupation".
A: If you mean the continued occupation of territory east of the green line the Israelis must be pressed to comply with 242. But thatin itself would not be then end. Once a Palestinian state is declared in the West Bank & Gaza it needs to have governmental systems in place to maintain relations with Israel and not descend into more violence. Once two states exist it is their option whether they have open borders or not.
B: If you mean establishing a single state under the governance of the PNA across all the territories of the original mandate, then that is a much more difficult task and probably is not achievable. Even if you envisaged limiting it to the area west of the Jordan River, it is still a massive task.
There tends to be a lot of talk about creating a state in very simplistic terms. There is very little discussion of the practicalities of implementing it. Even option A is fraught with major issues that the Palestinians and the Israelis have to deal with. Option B would probably require international commitment to evacuating the Jews, probably by force, and relocating them elsewhere. It all probability the majority of Israeli Palestinians would also want to be evacutated along with them. (Despite much nationalistic talk when it was suggested that the Arab Triangle be transfered to the PNA the majority of Israeli Palestinians indicated that they didn't want to be transferred to becoming PNA citizens)
As for delaying on other issues until the occupation ends: this has been the excuse from most of the ME for not progressing towards democracy and human rights. It means that everyone else is hostage to Israeli & Palestinian incalcitrance.
End of occupation of
Submitted by Shan on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 5:23pm.End of occupation of palestine, not green line or blue line, palestine is under foreign occupation.
When people are being slaughtered they rally around the flag or cause, whatever you may call it, once occupation has ended than nations can deal with the welfare of their people and make advances.
The reality is dictators are ful y supported by western nations to keep the people subdued and quiet,if there was democracry in the arab world then israeli occupation would not lasts long,as the governments would be forced to act on the people wishes.
will you be a apologist for israeli crimes or call for palestinian freedom from occupation.
Liberating Palestine - Eliminating Israel
Submitted by Q on Fri, 18/09/2009 - 9:22pm.First of all the dictatorships exist because they have always existed and Arab society has not progressed sufficiently to bring about their end. It will happen only when the people are sufficiently sick of being abused that they rise up. But so long as so many think that the crumb they enjoy that falls from the dictators table is their little peice iof wealth,, they will not upset that table.
OK now I understand what you want. Can you now tell me and everyone else just how you envisage to bring about the end of the Israeli / Zionist occupation of Palestine? Lots of people talk about this, but I have yet to hear / read a credible plan which would not include the deaths of tens of thousands of Palestinians. As force has failed so far, how are you going to persuade the Jews to leave? And where exactly are they going to go?
Shan - Democracy
Submitted by Damour Mon Amour on Sat, 19/09/2009 - 4:19am.Shan - you say if there was democracy in the Arab world then Israels "occupation" would not last long as the Arab Govts. would be forced to act on their peoples wishes.
What you say may well be true, but democracy has never really been part of Islam since its development. Islamic countries have always been Caliphates, Regencies or most recently, a sort of democratic dictatorship.
The surrounding Arab countries are too busy reaping in oil money and suppressing any political movement that might harm the power of the princes. Their leaders are far too interested in increasing their personal wealth and enjoying the delight of the western world to care about their own people, let alone the Palestinians.
The billions the Palestinians receive are not from their co-religionists or the Arab countries, it is from the UN, the USA, the EU and the UK.
When has Islam ever promoted democracy? - the first four Caliphs were chosen by their peers and that resulted in war and dissension.
The following Caliphs reigned because they had the means to overpower their rivals, not because they were chosen and then, like the West, power was transferred through families and tribes.
I suppose the Palestinians are the first who could have had real democracy, but unlike western democracies they tend to dispose of their opponents thereby creating a totalitarian theocratic government who seem more interested in keeping their people at odds with Israel rather than trying to set up a Palestinian state for the future.
The word "IF" is huge - there is no way the Arabs will ever voluntarily become democratic states and bow to the wishes of their people as it might mean they have to make women equal to men and abide by the UN Declaration of Human Rights. And Islam is incompatible with these.
P.S. - Pappe, like Said, - so dubious and so last century.
So according to Q and damour
Submitted by Shan on Sat, 19/09/2009 - 10:16am.So according to Q and damour the goyim do not have any rights they are like cattle to be used.
The fact that you zionists are unable to admit the goyim are humans with equal rights, shows your crocodile tears for arabs or arab women.
Your diversion of blogs only goes to show that you inherently racist and the only way you will understand is when you are paid inkind.
Tragedy upon Tragedy
Submitted by Q on Sat, 19/09/2009 - 11:34am.The entire Middle East is a litany of tragedy upon tragedy at the macro & micro levels, No community, with the possible exception of the Bahais can claim that their hands are clean of the blood of their neighbours.
The fundamental choice for us is either focus upon the inuries that we have experienced and demand revenge, thus leading to a never ending cycle of violence.
Or we can say "stop!", put aside the weapons of war and start to make those tiny steps towards coexistance and collaboration.
But we will never end this endless violence until we are brave enough to stand up and acknowledge our own crimes. We have yet to achieve this level of courage, and it requires enormous courage because there are many around us who threaten us with violence if we make such a stand, because these people benefit from the endless violence.
Consider this - when the fighting stops there is no role for the warrior who at present stalks arrogantly across our land. And so they are the ones who want the war more than anyone else. The same applies to the secret policeman and the torturer. And even the clerk who demands a bribe to do what he has already been paid to do. Eevryone of these people have an interest in the corruption that exists today and it is down to us to end it.
But we will never end while we continue to lie to ourselves and accuse others of the same crimes that we are guilty of.
Financial Aid from Arabs
Submitted by Anonymous Coward on Sat, 19/09/2009 - 5:12pm.DMA - you are wrong in claiming that the Palestinians have not or do not receive aid from the Arab and other Muslim states. The Palestinians have always received large amounts from the Arab & Muslim states in the form of gov't aid and personal donations. Unlike UNRWA etc aid this is not always publicised, and it is therefore difficult to quantify just how much has been given over the last 60yrs. (The barrier to understanding is that the PLO has been the recipient of massive funding on behalfof the Palestinians, but following Oslo maintains a distinctionbetween it and the PNA.)
In addition the PLO has over the years developed commercial interests extending across EU & USA from which it also derives significant income.
Following the first Gulf War the PLO suffered a massive drop in income in response to their suppprt for Saddam Hussein and the invasion of Kuwait. This loss was estimated to be in excess of $200million p.a. plus the 5% income tax levy that Palestinians in the Gulf paid to fund the PLO.
It remains very difficult to determine exactly how much money is given due to the labyrinthine accounting practices the PLO has and the endemic corruption.
Shan
Submitted by Damour Mon Amour on Mon, 21/09/2009 - 6:22am.Sorry Shan - your version of the Armenian genocide differs slightly from the modern scholars. The Ottoman Empire used the 1915 invasion by the Russians as a cover for the massacres and expulsion of the Armenian Christians from Armenia. You are correct when you say that the Armenians were rising up against the Ottomans but then so were many of the muslim countries of the M.E. Those countries were not ethnically cleansed , nor were genocides committed there because they were muslim countries!
DMA - You may need to revise your perception
Submitted by Q on Mon, 21/09/2009 - 8:25am.DMA - the root of this matters sits squarely with the nature of Ottoman (& other Muslim) rule. The Armenians and other non-Muslims, mainly Christians, were denied what we would understand as basic rights as people. They could not take a Muslim to court, there were severe restrictions on them owning property and they were subject to demands to surrender their children into slavery. This created a fertile ground in which the competing empires of Russia and Austro-Hungary could foster rebellion. The oppressed Christians did visit appalling violence upon their Muslim neighbours when the opportunity arose. (Violence begets violence) Any study of the pre-1850's Ottoman Empire will show that a form of apartheid was in force, in which Muslims had absolute power. The 19th C was however little more than a succession of humiliations for the Ottoman Empire and Muslims generally. As European society developed it eclipsed what had been the militarily powerful Ottomans, and soon sought to reverse the expansion of the Ottoman Empire. In reaction to that the Ottomans visited appalling violence upon their rebellious subjects. The Armenian massacres were in part the crescendo of a satanic symphony of Turkish / Ottoman sectarian violence.It was interestingly Hitler who remarked that as much as the Armenian Massacres had been forgotten so too would the destruction of the Jews. Neither has been the case, and both remain a running sore due mainly to the habit of denial.
The desire for revenge against the remnants of the Ottoman Empire remains a potent force as was witnessed in the Balkans as the Serbs & Croats cited past injuries and attrocities as justification for their genocidal practices.
Damour and Q your sickness it
Submitted by Shan on Mon, 21/09/2009 - 9:12am.Damour and Q your sickness it seems has reached the terminal stage, you have blogged away about what happened centuries ago, but are unbale to to talk about the crimes of here and now in palestine by zionists.
Until then you can blogg til the cows come home but will not get any response,as what i understand from your attempts to justify the persectution of palestinians is that you are ready to be given back inkind and when that time comes you will fully undestand why.
All Victims Have Their Right to Heard
Submitted by Anonymous Coward on Mon, 21/09/2009 - 9:42am.Shan, all the victims have a right to be heard and understood. The Palestinian victims of the Nakhba and Post-67 Occupation, the Arab Jews, the Armenians, the Bosniaks, the Serbs, etc etc etc.
However each group in its turn has also been the oppressor and they cannot demand recognition of their experiences as victims unless they own up their culpability as abusers.
Currently it goes like this:
"You Jews murdered, raped and tortured us, the Palestinians"
"FO! You f***ing Muslims have spent the last 1000 years raping, torturing, murdering my people."
"You Jews drove us from our land and then denied us the right ever to return"
"Hahaha... So now you know how it feels like. You Muslims stole my families home, land and money. So if you don't like it being done to you, you shouldn't have done it to us."
"But that was a long time ago!
"So what it doesn't f****ing matter. You put right what you did to us first and then when you've done that we might think about you."
We either own up to what we have done, and that means all of us. Or we remain stuck in endless bickering and violence.