Fri, 03/09/2010 - 9:20am
Bismillah

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Why We Must Leave Afghanistan

defeat in Afghanistan

We are entering our 9th year in Afghanistan and to allow the occupation to last 10 years is criminal and an injustice to the many that will inevitably pay the price with their lives.

Initially Britain along with the US entered the war to find Bin Laden. Bush, Blair and their neocon advisors jumped at the opportunity to invade Afghanistan, and whilst we can argue the merits of invading in the first instance, what is beyond doubt is that with no signs of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan our presence now is counterproductive.

Proponents of the war give different reasons, depending on who they are and what they believe in, ranging from securing the UK, securing the region, securing Pakistan, saving the West from Afghan drugs, installing democracy or freeing Muslim women. It is obvious that there are no agreed objectives and a closer look at each one shows that not only have we failed to achieve anything in the last 8 years, we are unlikely to attain anything in the coming years.

Our Security

Having been in Afghanistan since 2001, the invasion failed to stop the 7/7 attacks of 2005, The Madrid bombings of 2004, the Bali attacks of 2005 and 2002. More recent convictions related to the airline terror plot of 2006 fail to show any direct connection with the Taliban. Even the latest “serious terror plot” which uncovered a “trans-Atlantic terrorist network”, the biggest threat since 9/11 had nothing to do with Afghanistan.

So why exactly are we fighting the Taliban? Why exactly have 232 of our boys and girls given their lives? The Taliban aren’t a threat to us and anyone who claims this is lying. The unfortunate truth is that the terrorist threat we face in the UK is mainly a home grown threat, something that will only be thwarted by having an ethical foreign policy and persuading disaffected people to be more involved in the political process - as organisations such as MPACUK have called for some time.

Regional Security

On a recent debate on the BBC, Professor Anthony Glees stated – through his apparent hate for all things Islamic – that one of the reasons we were there was to protect Afghanistan and Pakistan. Such compassion for a Muslims is patently disingenuous coming from a man who has urged the Government and university dons to spy on Muslims. It will also come as no surprise that such an objective is also shared by those who advise military companies that profit from such endless war.

The truth is that since the invasion the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan has deteriorated.

Bombings in Islamabad, Lahore and Rawalpindi have become an almost weekly occurrence. Pakistan is fighting a critical war against the Pakistani Taliban and it is paying the price with massive internal displacement and huge civilian and military casualties. Unlike the US/UK operation, the Pakistani offensive has popular support and by admission of US General Petraeus, our involvement is making the situation in Pakistan worse.

The situation in Afghanistan hasn’t improved either. Last October has been the deadliest month for the US with 55 dead, and this year has been the worst for the international presence. The worsening situation (presented in graph form) has implicitly been acknowledged by the UN with its withdrawal of half its foreign staff and the threat of a full withdrawal if the situation doesn’t improve. A more depressing piece of evidence that illustrates the worsening situation is how five years ago, 70% of eligible voters participated in the Afghan presidential election. This year it was down to 38%. This can only mean that Afghans were either too scared to vote or they didn’t see the point.

People who clamour for more British involvement argue that if we leave all hell will break loose. Such a warning is worthy of no more credibility than the cries of warmongers many years ago who tried to justify the US occupation in Vietnam by wrongly predicting that if US forces abandoned Vietnam, the whole of South-East Asia would become a communist stronghold.

Drugs

Another reason we’re often given for being in Afghanistan is to stop the drug trade. Today this is claimed by fewer proponents of war mainly because of the saddening realities that they can no longer deny. Instead of its eradication, drug production has registered a hike of 40 times under the watchful eye of the occupation. Previous to the invasion, 7606 hectares of land was being used to cultivate drugs, now it is a shocking 157000 hectares.

And they are all at it. The brother of our installed puppet President, Ahmed Karzai, is notoriously known to be one of the country’s biggest drug lords. He has also apparently been on the CIA’s pay roll since the start of the war for maintaining a paramilitary armed force which works at the behest of the US when they need it and at the behest of the drug baron when they don’t.

Democracy

Bush and Blair’s claim that they wanted to bring Democracy to the Muslim world has been the most visible failure of them all. The culmination of this sham was the recent election in Afghanistan which was perhaps the most corrupt the world has ever seen, or at best a close runner up to Mugabe’s shenanigans in Zimbabwe.

The reality is that Afghanistan is mainly a feudal society that has previously picked its leaders on basis of either religion or tradition. As sociologists theorise, government legitimacy comes from three basic sources, traditional, religious, and legal. Karzai has obviously no traditional or religious backing, and what little legal backing he had previously from the presidential election of 2004 has been wiped away with the massive election rigging that he effectively administrated.

What is more puzzling is that even if a democracy were workable in Afghanistan, something Muslims all over the world would no doubt welcome, why are the Taliban being excluded from the process? The jury is still out on the popularity of the Taliban in Afghanistan (with the difficulty involved in polling Taliban controlled areas) but to claim to have the will of the people in mind and exclude the Taliban from all manner of government does not show a genuine commitment to democratic principles. It is in fact an overt attempt at installing a puppet regime. Something that didn’t work back in Vietnam, didn’t work when the Russian’s tried it and won’t work for us now either.

It’s not as if the Taliban are the worst bunch of people we could have diplomatic relations with, the government obviously has no problem when it comes to North Korea, Burma and Israel.

Women

The biggest Islamophobes in the country, people like the despicable David Toube of Harrys Place and his ilk, despite their patent dislike for Muslims are always the first to claim that they are the protectors of Muslim women. We all know that they only ride this bandwagon because it is simply another stick to beat Muslims with.

In Afghanistan, the despicable treatment of women as property is more a cultural and traditional problem than an Islamic one and it will take time to remedy. A military presence will change nothing.

A sad reality that has been made obvious by the recent signing of the personal status laws by President Karzai, a person who has Obama and Brown’s full backing. The law allows Afghans to deny food to a wife who does not provide sexual services once every four days and many other horrors. One can only sigh in desperation when reading the comments of Ann Jones, a person who has spent years working with women in Afghanistan, when she says that “an unsentimental look at the record reveals that for all the fine talk of women's rights since the US invasion, equal rights for Afghan women have been illusory all along, a polite feel-good fiction that helped to sell the American enterprise at home and cloak in respectability the misbegotten government we installed in Kabul

More damningly even Afghan feminist organisations, in particular members of the hard working Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA), have called upon western forces to leave with the slogan “Liberation can only come from within – end the US occupation”.

The final word on this goes to Malalai Joya, a female MP from Afghanistan who shocked a London audience when she lamented that “that the situation for women in Afghanistan is now worse than it was under the Taliban”.

So why are we there?

Our military presence is helping no one other than the vultures that profit from war.

A commonly suggested solution is that we need to increase troops in the long term. The US President is mulling a request for installing a further 60,000 troops in Afghanistan, but what we all need to accept is that a military solution is simply unworkable.

A redacted section of US General McChrystal’s report claimed that to gain any sway over the insurgency we would need at least 500,000 troops and another 5 years. More worryingly the presence of foreign forces are the single most important factor in the resurgence of the Taliban and strengthens the hand of Taliban recruiters, a reality corroborated by an independent Carnegie Institute report early this year.

Gordon Brown, a notorious ditherer, knows a military solution is unworkable as do most of the cabinet, but foremost on their mind is not the bodies of British soldiers but re-election. Gordon Brown knows full well that if he even mentions withdrawal in his sleep, the Conservatives along with The Sun will have him for breakfast.

There are many alternatives to war in Afghanistan, including diplomatic and non violent conflict resolution, a “Books not bombs” approach and the involvement of more Muslim countries - something that neocons will no doubt balk at as it will increase the influence of Muslims in the region.

Regardless of which approach is ultimately taken, it is worth noting that the worst possible solution is to attempt to bomb the Taliban back to the stone ages. They already live in the stone ages.

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50 comments

 

I much prefer Homeland Security approach

I think we'd be better off deploying the troops in the UK to beef up Homeland Security and get tough on the hate preachers and institutions that give them encouragement.

The USA have made a start on Iran http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1227458/Four-mosques-N...

Let's bring the troops home and put a ring of steel around the UK. Profile those with a history of terrorism and root them out.

Massive retaliations against countries who sponsor and support terrorism should teach them to leave us alone.

However, we DO need to do something about terrorists getting hold of Pakistan nukes.

 

A good articel telling it

A good articel telling it like it is, we already know that everytime we are told someone conspired to carry out act a explosion it was because afghan and iraq are occupied.
so does someone need to be a brain surgeon to know that once we withdraw from iraq and afghan these extremists fringe will have no cause left.
The only ones against withdrawl are warmongering profiteers an racist meglomaniacs.

 

Then it will be another excuse

The Jihadi Extremist Terrorist World has an infinite list of grievances that won't go away if troops left Iraq and Afghanistan.

For example they would still be upset about the Palestinians inability to create a state or the fact that Al Andalus has to be liberated.

Pulling out won't stop Islamic Terrorism.

 

Cowpat before the attack on

Cowpat before the attack on iraq and afghan how many attacks were carried out in britain by what you call jihadi extremist terrorists.

 

An attack was attempted in

 

Good logic Shan . The only

Good logic Shan . The only problem though is that the US were not in Iran Afghanistan prior to 9/11 .
Seriously what on earth did you expect from the US - sending in an anger managemernt team or failing that the Keystone Cops .

 

harvela it was in relation to

harvela it was in relation to attacks in britain that i mentioned those facts.
if we include u.s.a than i would have said how many attacks in th usa did jihadi extremists carry out before americas attack and seige of iraq in which around 1.5 million people perished of which 500,000 were children.

 

Shan Perhaps you are unaware

Shan
Perhaps you are unaware of the deep and abiding relationship between the US and Britain and for that matter the vast majority of Western democracies which make up the coalition . This relationship was forged through mutual interests , common goals and of course two world wars . Bush made it quite clear in one of his more articulate speeches that the " Nations of the world were either with or against America " The Taliban by their actions and by harbouring the perpertrators of 9/11 made their choice.
That you choose to ignore the obvious is at best naive . As for 1,500,000 dead Irakis ,I would be interested to see a link supporting your claim and how many of these were killed by sectarian violence .

 

harvela the point in question

harvela the point in question was about jihadi extremist terror in britain,since you mentioned u.s.a you got the answer but as usual ignore the points raised and bring up new questions, i know your training takes over.
i am not here toi provide evidence to every single zionist,if you want the evidence of the 1.5 million dead iraqis ,go through previous blogs where zionists like yourselves asked for evidence.

 

Shan And what you fail to

Shan
And what you fail to understand is the special relationship this country has with America. Following the 9/11 attack, it would have been unthinkable for Britain not to pledge both political and military committment.. US tragedy was at once our own tragedy and their War on Terror would naturally become our war as was right and proper . The forces ranged against the free world are no different from those faced by this country in the 30s .The names change, the tyranny remains the same .
When Germany invaded Poland in 1939 , Britain had pledged her allegiance in the knowledge that it would lead to war with all the consequences that that entailed .The same is true now in spite of 7/7 . Britain endured the Blitz and will come through whatever diabolical criminality awaits it in the future.
As for your accusations of Zionist leanings ,I fail to understand the correlation between the subject matter of the post ie Britains war on terror in Afghanistan and Zionism . However ,if Britains support for America makes me a Zionist then I will be happy to embrace that mantle.
Unfortunately , your dubious response is indicative of a troubled and deeper malaise on your part . Perhaps you need to think on Bushs call to arms and decide where your own loyalties lie . Are you with America against tyranny and barbarism or not as the case may be.

 

We just need to sort out our

We just need to sort out our immigration policy.

Pakistani madrassa students are coming over on student visa's, sticking around fialing their courses for 5 years and then getting citizenships.

It's a joke.

 

Bring our troops home and

Bring our troops home and deport all afghan asylum seekers..Only the Afghans can sort out their country and they cant sort it if they are in the UK..Give it back to the taliban and stop all aid

 

cowpat, does that include

cowpat,
does that include israhell (ISRAEL / COLONIALS / OCCUPIERS) as they are the biggest terrorist`s that EXIST !!!!!

 

Who really is behind the AfPak strategy?

If you want to know who is behind the war in Afghanistan and the destabilisation of Pakistan, you must read this article by Jeff Gates.

http://criminalstate.com/2009/11/what-is-israel’s-role-in-the-destabilization-of-pakistan/

 

Great Article! The right win

Great Article!

The right win always accuse Muslims of being anti-Israel and labour them as paranoid etc. But the truth is that Israel is playing an active part in trying to destabilise the Muslim world, in particular Iran and Pakistan, the only two Muslim countries that have/are capable of having nukes.

 

Fantastic game by Israel

I think we should salute Israel that they are able to dupe the Muslim World and play them like a second-hand fiddle so easily.

Creating headless chickens that don't know which way to turn. They end up neutralising each other. Brilliant!

SInce Israel controls the weather, Hollywood, all World finances, all the media, all the medicine, all the computers - is there anything left?

Please send a postcard to your local Israeli embassy citing something Israel doesn't control and you can pick up a £5,000 reward.

 

cowpat carry on patrionising

cowpat carry on patrionising and before you know it,the boot will be on the other foot.

 

I got two boots. Haven't you?

Shan obviously only has one boot. Poor Shan. I have several pairs of boots myself and so I don't ever worry about the boot being on the other foot.

Dear Israeli Embassy,

Why not sell those extra boots to Arab/Muslim countries because we are fed up hopping. (That's why they are hopping mad?)

Yours,

Agent Shan

 

Cowpat make fun and laugh

Cowpat make fun and laugh enjoy it while it lasts,as things go in the world when the boot is on the other foot and the same treatment is meted out to zionsit jews, i am sure you will still make fun and laugh at the zionist jews for everything they get in return.
Btw as mentioend by me many a times making personal remarks shows you have lost the argument and have nothing logical to say.

 

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A loss in Afganistan,

A loss in Afganistan, delibrate or otherwise will make it easier to grow Biblical Christianity on the pretext that governments in the west are doing nothing to protect it's people or are dllebrately encouraging defeat.

 

Well Done MPAC UK

Dear MPAC,

Its good to see that you have respected the UK Law on Racism and realised that the "Cockroach" poster is guilty of Racism and should not be allowed to make posts like that.

 

"what is beyond doubt is that

"what is beyond doubt is that with no signs of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan our presence now is counterproductive."

No where in the link does it state their is no al qaeda presence in Afghanistan, it says their is not a large one, MacCrystal also states in this link that if coalition forces leave he believes their is a danger al qaeda will attempt to set up terrorist bases in Afghanistan again

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/Assessment_Red...

"The Taliban aren’t a threat to us and anyone who claims this is lying."

The Taliban, like Al Qaeda, has tried to attack the West. According to Spanish prosecutors, the late and unlamented leader of the Pakistani Taliban, Baitullah Mehsud, dispatched suicide bombers on a botched mission to Barcelona in January 2008. Pakistani Taliban spokesman Maulvi Omar confirmed this in August during a videotaped interview in which he said that those bombers "were under pledge to Baitullah Mehsud."

The situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan is very important in regards to security as pointed out by Prof.Peter Bergen "Nearly every major jihadist plot against Western targets in the last two decades somehow leads back to Afghanistan or Pakistan. The first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 was masterminded by Ramzi Yousef, who had trained in an Al Qaeda camp on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Ahmed Ressam, who plotted to blow up LAX airport in 1999, was trained in Al Qaeda's Khaldan camp in Afghanistan. Key operatives in the suicide attacks on two U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998 and the USS Cole in 2000 trained in Afghanistan; so did all 19 September 11 hijackers. The leader of the 2002 Bali attack that killed more than 200 people, mostly Western tourists, was a veteran of the Afghan camps. The ringleader of the 2005 London subway bombing was trained by Al Qaeda in Pakistan. The British plotters who planned to blow up passenger planes leaving Heathrow in the summer of 2006 were taking direction from Pakistan; a July 25, 2006, e-mail from their Al Qaeda handler in that country, Rashid Rauf, urged them to "get a move on." If that attack had succeeded, as many as 1,500 would have died. The three men who, in 2007, were planning to attack Ramstein Air Base, a U.S. facility in Germany, had trained in Pakistan's tribal regions."

"The situation in Afghanistan hasn’t improved either."
The latest Asia foundation shows more Afghans than last now think their country is moving in the right direction and that percentage is greater that the number of Afghans who think it is moving in the wrong direction, very other poll taken in afghanistan over the years shows afghans prefer their lives more now that they did under the Taliban
http://asiafoundation.org/country/afghanistan/2009-poll.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_02_09afghan_poll_2009.pdf
http://www.glevumassociates.com/files/AfghanistanElectionSurveyDosVersio...
http://www.iri.org/newsreleases/pdfs/2009%20June%2016%20Survey%20of%20Af...
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brasiapacificra/290.php?...

Polls also show most Afghans also dont want foreign forces to pull out yet.

 

Dmoloney guess what the

Dmoloney guess what the terorrists calling themsleves TTP have been attacked in swat and now are being attacked in waziristan,the pakistani army has found evidence that this group is a terrorisit organistion armed and financed by foreign nations based in afghanistan.
The taliban in afghanistan have for years categorically denied they have any link to these terorists who are financed by foreingers to destabilise pakistan, the pakistani army has found this out and are giving them a big dose of their own medicine.
Let the spanish prove in a court of law that these people were told by the taleban in afghan to attacd spain, the black ops that is TTP are running over the border to afghan as the americans have withdrawn their troops from nuristan a place bordering pakistan,just like in iraq when british terorists were caught dressed as arabs with bomb material and detonators in their vehicles, the british soldeirs broke them out of police custody,the same way those supporting these terrorists have moved the troops out, just when pakistan is attacking them.

 

this out and are giving them

this out and are giving them a big dose of their own medicine.
Let the spanish prove in a court of law that these people were told by the taleban in afghan to attacd spain

A spokesperson admitted it.

 

Which spokesman the one

Which spokesman the one working for black ops or the ones in afghanistan.
I did hear that someone at the end of phone god knows who he is or not claiming to represent the ttp from the information we have been provided ttp is a group in pakistan which fights the pakistani people and army.
the pakistani government has clearly said these terrorist group is funded and armed from afghan.
so if you could provide evidence that the taliban in afghan claimed responsibility not blacks ops known as ttp.

 

Shan you should slow down and

Shan you should slow down and read my post carefully, ok, ive already cited evidence that the TTP were behind the spanish terrorist attempt by pointing out that the spokesperson for the ttp admitted it.

ttp is a group in pakistan which fights the pakistani people and army.

That really doesnt need to be pointed out

 

Let the spanish prove in a

Let the spanish prove in a court of law that these people were told by the taleban in afghan to attacd spain,

First of all its attack not attacd, second my post said it was the Pakistan talban behind the attempts.

pakistani army has found evidence that this group is a terrorisit organistion armed and financed by foreign nations based in afghanistan.

Provide links please

 

"Bush and Blair’s claim that

"Bush and Blair’s claim that they wanted to bring Democracy to the Muslim world has been the most visible failure of them all."

The election was a terrible fiasco but the country is indeed far more democratic than it was under the Taliban and is still freer than a number of its neighbours such as China, Uzbekistan or Iran

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2009&country=7550

"The final word on this goes to Malalai Joya, a female MP from Afghanistan who shocked a London audience when she lamented that “that the situation for women in Afghanistan is now worse than it was under the Taliban”.

Quite a number of Afghan women do feel this way however the majority of women according to oxfam and save the chrildren say their lives are indeed better.

neocons will no doubt balk at as it will increase the influence of Muslims in the region.

The neocons are actually quite pro-muslim as long as it doesnt interfere with their even greater pro-likudnik views, the neo-cons were the ones who were strongly pressing for intervention against the Serbs during the 90s

Overall a very silly Afghan article

 

"The neocons are actually

"The neocons are actually quite pro-muslim"

When you can say something like this it is obvious that you not only haven't a clue what you are talking about, but you also have an axe to grind.

No one, no one with any knowledge of current afghanistan will claim that "democracy" has worked, and you obviously give no source for that, so you will have us believe it on your opinion.

Also give me one women, apart from Hirshi Ali who says that Afghanistan is a great place for women. Even Karzai's wife, who is a doctor is no longer allowed to leave her house.

Try again.

 

If you read my post correctly

If you read my post correctly you will find that i never claimed democracy has worked perfectly, but that i quite correctly claimed that Afghanistan is freer now than it was under the Taliban

"When you can say something like this it is obvious that you not only haven't a clue what you are talking about, but you also have an axe to grind."

Are you disputing the fact that many of the neo-cons were quite supportive of the Muslims in the Balkans and wanted the US to stop Serb aggression

"Also give me one women, apart from Hirshi Ali who says that Afghanistan is a great place for women. Even Karzai's wife, who is a doctor is no longer allowed to leave her house."

Again, you seem to display an inability to read what has actually been written, i never claimed that Afghanistan is a "great place for women", i claimed that it is better than it was under the Taliban, which it is.

"Try again."

You really must.;)

 

Just read the link you gave.

Just read the link you gave. This is what the report starts with

"Afghanistan's civil liberties rating declined from 5 to 6 and its status declined from Partly Free to Not Free due to rising insecurity and increasing corruption and inefficiency in government institutions."

I think you should read stuff before you paste it.

 

I did read the link and I

I did read the link and I dont see how it contradicts with my claim that Afghanistan is freer than Iran and China

 

Ignore them moloney thats

Ignore them moloney thats just someone pretending to be me.

Wonder why anyone would want to discredit me in this way instead of just arguing the good old fashioned way. You people aren't doing your religion any favours by using these underhand tactics.

 

A history lesson (no charge)

As former assistant squadron historian for the U.S. Air Force 964th AWAC Squadron when we were helping the Afghan Freedom Fighters against the Soviet invaders of Afghanistan; As former lecturer in Modern European History at Bournville College in Birmingham; and As a current member of Veterans For Peace (www.VeteransForPeace.org); to say that neo-cons are pro-Muslim when they have been killing them by the hundreds of thousands since Daddy Bush befriended the Russians in 1989 and declared a "new world order" is simply asinine.

The Talibaan (Qur'an students in Pashtu) are the sons and grandsons of the Afghan Freedom Fighters that the U.S. aided in their defence against the Soviet invasion and occupation during the '80s. The centuries old fight between Russia and the British, and then between Russia and America/Britain, over Afghanistan is about opium, from which heroin is refined. CIA does not depend on U.S. tax victims or a whimsical Congress to fund its covert operations; these are funded by illicit drug sales. Thats' right - CIA drugs is what the fight is about in Afghanistan. Bolivia simply cannot produce opium on the scale that Afghanistan can.

Talibaan riled CIA in 2000 when they stopped opium production. The Bush Crime Family flew the Talibaan leadership to Texas to impress upon them the importance to CIA for Afghani opium. Despite Bush's efforts, the Qur'aan students would not change their minds. By the Summer of 2001, Afghanistan was on track to harvest enough food to feed themselves. But after the 9/11 stitch job used by Bush to jusity the criminal invasion of Afghanistan, every ensuing year produces a record opium crop surpassing the crop of the previous year. That is the result of the Bush-n-Blair Gang's invasion of Afghanistan. And CIA is happy.

 

to say that neo-cons are

to say that neo-cons are pro-Muslim when they have been killing them by the hundreds of thousands since Daddy Bush befriended the Russians in 1989 and declared a "new world order" is simply asinine.

If you look into neo-con actions during the Bosnian war you will indeed find that they were pro-Muslim even though overall they are unquestionably and wrongly pro-likudnik in regards to the Palestian/Israeli issue

Talibaan riled CIA in 2000 when they stopped opium production.

The problem with that arguement is that relations with the Taliban and the US deteriotated well before 2000 due to the pressure of feminist lobby groups and the fact that the Taliban were hosting Bin Laden who was financing terrorist attacks against US interests.

 

Dmoloney when the bosnian war

Dmoloney when the bosnian war started america and her allies,stood back and gave the serbs all the time they wanted to eliminate the bosnian state, they placed a arms embargo on bosnia, knowing full well that the serbs were getting plenty of men and weapons from serbia ,the only ones that needed arms from the outside were the bosnians.
After 3 years on the back foot when the bosnians managed to get smuggled anti-tank weapons and forced the serbs to retreat ,the western nations jumped into make sure bosnia was not united as one nation but split in two, the americans did not favour the bosnians muslims if they had they would not have waited 3 years to intervene.
As for afghan a few months before 911 the ruling taliban party members were being proverbially wined and dined in texas.
As for C.I.A dealing in drugs its a open secret, just like th british forcing the chinese by gunpoint to acept them as the drug barons in the opium wars.
We all know afghan is about power politics.

 

Again Shan as usual, you've

Again Shan as usual, you've failed to counter my statement that statement was that the neo-cons during the Bosnian war supported the Bosnian Muslim side and supported US intervention while the realists felt the US had no dog in the Balkan fight. This is accurate.

It was a terrible thing that the US did not intervene sooner but the fact is it did intervene in the end and was crucial in bringing about the end of the Bosnian war.

Also Shan if you read a few proper books on historic topics instead of reading conspiracy websites(i remember the post where you embarrassingly revealed that you thought bin laden was a CIA agent) about the Bosnian war you would be aware that the US did smuggle weapons to the Bosnian Muslims with C-130 transports and that many US senators favoured the lift and strike option, Bill Clinton initially tried to get European states to lift the arm embargo and begin air strikes on the Serbs but unfortunally was turned down. The reason for the intervention was the Markale massacre, the idea that the US supported the Serbs at the time is ridiculess, the US before it even started to bomb the Serbs was increasing aid to the Muslim forces, and this aid included the anti-tank weapons which you mentioned.

As for afghan a few months before 911 the ruling Taliban party members were being proverbially wined and dined in texas.

Taliban-US relations were overall very poor, the US did not acknowledge the Taliban as the rightful rulers of Afghanistan and the embassy remained closed, the idea that the Taliban and the US had discussions is not that surprising, many rival groups have to at some time meet with each other, the US had dialogue with the USSR for example.

 

Domoloney your argument has

Domoloney your argument has been fully countered if you reckon only you have the full knowledge and everybody else is wrong then there is no way you will accept a diffrent viewpoints as you seem to think only you are right.
Which part of the argument did you not understand the fact that serbs were given 3 years to do the job,it was only when the bosnians broke out and started liberating their nation that western nations jumped into make sure bosnia was split in two.
The americans were proverbially winning and dining the taliban members in texas months before 911,when you do not recognise someone as the representative of a government you do not invite them to your nation on a visit, the ussr was a internationally recognised union state.
when did you refute me that tim osman was not a cia asset,do please prove me wrong that tim osman was not a cia assett.
maybe you should read the real history of the world instead of the ones that are written by western nations.

 

Which part of the argument

Which part of the argument did you not understand the fact that Serbs were given 3 years to do the job, it was only when the Bosnians broke out and started liberating their nation that western nations jumped into make sure Bosnia was split in two

The reason for the break out was due to the fact that the Clinton administration were allowing aid to the Muslims, another reason for Muslims gains at the end was due to the air offensive conducted by the western powers, the west also attacked the Serbs in April 2004, Clinton himself said the word whoopee when the Serbs were being bombed, when the Muslims started to push back the Serbs it greatly pleased Washington for it showed the Serbs were a paper tiger and that Serbia itself would not directly military intervene. Overall the decision for the US to intervene had nothing to do with Muslim expansion and instead had to do with the fact that it was politically costly for Clinton not to get involved, you should read the Pulitzer prize winning book a problem from hell by samantha power for the full story.

when did you refute me that tim osman was not a cia asset,do please prove me wrong that tim osman was not a cia assett.

Shan do yourself a favour, please stop reading conspiracy theory websites, they are only clouding your mind, what you should read instead are the Pulitzer prize winning books, the looming tower and ghost wars by Lawrence Wright and Steve coll respectively, who should also read the works of Jason Burke and Peter Bergen, these fine folks will provide with the education on the issues regarding Afghanistan so you won’t embarrass yourself in the future with your tim osman shenanigans

 

Dmoloney i am still waiting

Dmoloney i am still waiting for you to prove me wrong that tim osman ws not a cia assett.
Btw the names you have quoted prove further that you think only the western version of history matters.
It seems you are the one who needs to stop gulping down the propaganda and see what is happening in the world.

 

I did, ive provided you the

I did, ive provided you the names of individuals who have been in afghanistan, who have met all the main players including bin laden himself and they have found no evidence bin laden was a cia assett, al qaeda itself said it was not true, in an interview with robert fisk bin laden said he did not encounter american involvement, zawahiri in his book said that the idea of a cia-al qaeda alliance was a myth, the most compelling reason of all that in laden was not a cia assett is that those who claim he was have never provided any solid evidece.

Non western sources also show bin laden was not a cia assett, Pakistani Brigadier Mohammad Yousaf who ran the ISI afghan campaign denies it.

 

please give evidence that neo

please give evidence that neo con zionists were supporting muslims. Also note that Clinton was not a neo-con.

 

For evidence that they were

For evidence that they were behind both attacks on Iraq and pushed for war against iran and syria please see:

http://www.warwithoutend.co.uk/wake-up-america-your-government-is-hijack...

 

The Neo-cons were jewish and

The Neo-cons were jewish and christian zionists, and they hated muslims anyone who wants to know what they really believed in only has to read this:

http://www.warwithoutend.co.uk/wake-up-america-your-government-is-hijack...

 

The Neo-cons were jewish and

The Neo-cons were jewish and christian zionists, and they hated muslims anyone who wants to know what they really believed in only has to read this:

They certainly are zionists(not that their is anything wrong with that, likudnikism on the otherhand), however Zalmay Khalilzad is both a Muslim and a neo-con, so saying neo-cons must be jewish or christian is wrong.

 

why leave afghanistan??

why leave afghanistan if you were born there according to my nature essays that don't leave behind the things you were born at.

 

why leave afghanistan??

why leave afghanistan if you were born there according to my nature essays that don't leave behind the things you were born at.

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