Fri, 03/09/2010 - 9:58am
Bismillah

no-more-orphans-.gif

Israel's Military Spend & Saudi Mugs

Military Spending 2009

Israel spends the highest amount in the world on arming its war machine relative to its population than any other country in the world. That's why it's considered one of the best trained and equipped army in the world.

Despite that they got a good whopping in Lebanon last time they tried to invade another sovereign country by Hizbollah with their primitive weaponry.

Saudi Arabia spends more than twice that of Israel - and it stands quite high up in the charts on military spend relative to its population.

Saudi Arabia is not even mentioned in the rankings of military prowess.

Why do you think a country can spend so much in arms, both absolute and per capita, and yet be militarily insignificant?

Share or Bookmark this article

Understand more...

64 comments

 

2 comments: 1. Are you

2 comments:

1. Are you implying that Saudi Arabia funds Israel? Thats funny because that means that both Zionists and Islamists(ie whoever wrote this 'article') blame Saudi Arabia for helping the other side, by using their immense oil wealth to surreptitiously fund terrorism.

Interesting, I wonder which is the more likely scenario? (hint: Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state)

2. The reason why Israel spends "the highest amount in the world on arming it's war machine" is probably because it is completely surrounded by countries which are devoted to its destruction and the deaths of all Jews. They have proven this on many occasions.

If Israel was to demilitarise, every single inhabitant would very quickly find themselves dead.

 

saudi history

Most muslims are ignorant of history, the saudi clan took control of the Peninsula of Muhammed (saw) with help from wahabism and British colonialists after they attacked the Islamic Khilafah.

Most modern day Salafis (as they like to call themselves) try to hide the historical fact and serve as mouth pieces for the Saudi kings, but the truth is the saudi-wahabite alliance was created based on the rebellion against the Islamic Caliphate.

After they seized power they began passing fatwas that forbade rebellion against the state.

They were supported by western colonialism and will continue to serve it til their dying days.

The axis of evil consists of wahabism-saudi kings plus Israel and USA

 

Saudi Arabia

Yes, Saudi Arabia - the only country in the world to be named after the tribe that won the inter necine war. The Sauds decided they would rule and their helpers, the Wahabbi tribe were given the right to control the religious aspect.

They had to get help from the west, the first "king" (tribal leader) Ibn Saud could neither read nor write - not many Saudis could after they expelled the more educated Hashemite clan and some other more educated clan whose name I can't remember. He also had his sons schooled at religious schools in Saudi as he didn't think education mattered.

This was the King who paid an Egyptian scholar $3,000,000 to distort the family tree to make Ibn Saud a descendant of Mohammed. They have now produced so many princelings that every other Arab in Saudi must be a descendant of the Prophet.

After the Shi'ites rose up and invaded the Kaa'ba he had to call in French troops to expel them,. In fact they were all killed - taken to local towns and publicly beheaded as a warning.

The Saudi family know they are hated - they have to spend so much on military equipment because as I recall they have two standing armies - one for defence (their aircraft are being used to bomb the Yemeni insurgents at the moment) and one to guard the Royal Family from their own people.

 

And to follow up on your

And to follow up on your comment, where did the expelled Hasemite clan go to?

They were awarded roughly 75% of the country which used to be known as Palestine (you may have heard of it), lying east of the river Jordan. They then changed its name to Jordan and threw out all the Jews living here. So in fact the people known today as Jordanians are actually mainly composed of PALESTINIAN arabs.

The Jews and the remaining Arabs west of the river Jordan were left to fight for the 25% remaining part of Palestine. If the Palestinians are awarded a state in Israel, that means the Arabs will have 2 states in Palestine, whilst the Jews will have one.

Furthermore, Arabs are permitted to live in Israel (and enjoy the most rights out of any middle-eastern country), whilst no Jew is allowed to live in Jordan. And if a Jew set foot in arab controlled towns in Israel, such as Ramallah he would be murdered. Does this sound fair?

Jordan = Palestine. Look this up it is fact.

 

Self Defense

Israelis, like other people can also arm themselves with Biblical Christianity to counter threats & attacks from neighbors who wish them ill or dead. Oh I forgot Arabs/Muslims also do not want anybody else to use "religion" to defend themselves. That is only something they can do with impunity

 

Sounds like that Christian fanatic

Sounds like that Christian fanatic ,
Boy Blunder himself
YES it must be
CLIFFORD ISHII

 

Top of the......

Where is Saudi Arabia in relation to any rankings?
Top of the Bloody Fools Charts.
Always
They don't need Israel's PR machine to tell them this.
Muslims will do so themselves.
They had the biggest ''bucket'' of oil God could have given them
and have nothing to show for it.

 

Delusion & Grandioise Self-Deception

The author states, "they got a good whopping in Lebanon last time they tried to invade another sovereign country by Hizbollah". If anyone imagines that Hezbollah did anything more than temporarily humiliated the IDF then they are fooling themslves. Certainly Hezbollah managed to capture (& kill) 2 IDF soldiers, subsequently to be traded for a psychopathic child killer.
On the other hand Hezbollah managed to drag the Lebanese state into a conflict which it did not seek, caused massive infrastructral damage to Lebanon, caused massive loss of life in Lebanon and ultimately reminded the IDF that it has to maintain a balanced response capability and will to deliver overwhelming force.
The overkill that the IDF delivered subsequently in Gaza was a pure demonstration of that willingness to obliterate an enemy and a reminder to the region that the momentary humiliation in Lebanon was just that.
Thousands of civilians in Gaza paid the price for Hamas's, the region's and the Muslim collective's overweaning inability to learn and absurd degree of self-deception.
The Hezbollah attack on Israel illustrates just how much a threat these militias forces are to the majority of people in the region. The romanticism which has been applied to these groups needs to be removed and reality faced. There will never be peace and stability so long as independent armies / militias / resistance groups operate in the region.

 

Let me get this clear.

You say:

"The overkill that the IDF delivered subsequently in Gaza was a pure demonstration of that willingness to obliterate an enemy and a reminder to the region that the momentary humiliation in Lebanon was just that.

Thousands of civilians in Gaza paid the price for Hamas's, the region's and the Muslim collective's overweaning inability to learn and absurd degree of self-deception."

So, the "momentary humiliation" inflicted upon Israel in Lebanon by the Hizbollah is repaid by Israel attacking the Palestinians in Gaza and killing 1400 men women and children (the vast majority of which were innocent civillians).

 

These ZioNazi's are truly the

These ZioNazi's are truly the scum of the earth. Mazin well spotted, when one really takes the time to dissect their smokes and mirrors arguments (really used to confuse the average non educated person on the issue) you find that it is peppered with their racism and pride in taking part in murder.

 

What On Earth Did Anyone Imagine?

What on earth did anyone imagine would be the stance of the Israelis? Did someone have some pretty notion that the Israelis were simply going to accept that Hamas and others were simply to be allowed to fire rockets at Sderot and elsewhere unanswered? It was always a strategy by Hamas to continue war.
It is analogous to throwing sticks as a very bad tempered tiger and then being surprised when it suddenly lashes out.
And of this claim of innocence. By all means children who have no means to influence government are innocent. But can the adult popualtion that overwhelming voted for Hamas be said to be entirely innocent? Did they not vote for the implementation of Hamas's charter and action plan. Don't the militias have their popular support? If they do have popular support, then the adult population is party to the firing of rockets. If they do not, then where are the calls amongst MPACUK for Hamas and its militias to be driven from Gaza and the Palestinian political scene?
It is evidence of the paucity of the Palestinian popular political maturity and awareness that repeatedly factions committed to pointless violence gain support. It is also evidence of the betrayal of the Palestinians, that the so-called friends in the free democracies are not acting as critical friends, rather than cheerleaders for the people of violence.
And don't give me that crap of justifiable resistance. Not since Oslo has any act of violence progressed the establishment of an independent and viable Palestinian state. No act of violence has stopped the Israelis grabbing another piece of land, in fact it has served to accelerate it.

 

Sigh

There was a ceasefire. Hamas held up their part of the ceasefire. Israel invaded Gaza and killed several Hamas militants, after three months of a 6-month long ceasefire.

Even Mark Regev the Israeli spokesperson admitted that it was Israel that broke the ceasefire.

Using your analogy, this is equivalent to the guy facing the tiger putting his stick down, and the tiger taking aswipe at him, and when he picks up his stick to beat the tiger, the tiger attacking him for daring to defend himself.

 

Here it is

 

There Are Two Issues Here

1. Hamas never could deliver a total ceasefire. It, like Fatah, is not in full control of the events there are too many weapons and too many militias. Even the political wing of Hamas is not in full control of the military wing.
2. The IDF interdicted an attempt by Hamas to repeat the Shalit seizure raid. But whereas in Shalit case they were not ready for such an action, in the reported event they were. Hamas as far as I am aware does not dispute that a force had been readied to launch the raid. So Hamas intended to breach the much vaunted ceasefire and was ambushed by the IDF, and the Israelis by doing this breached the ceasefire.

A Plague On Both Their Houses! They are both wrong. But the Palestinians are the main losers!

 

Yawn!

Yes, a plague on both their houses.

Yes, they are both wrong.

Yes, the Palestinians are the main losers.

But you forgot to mention:

Israel is the main aggressor.

Israel is the main oppressor.

Israel is the main killer of innocents.

 

Wake Up to the Tiger!

It doesn't matter if a man holds a stick, has no stick or even beats the tiger with the stick, the tiger will always win.
Violence has only delivered more Violence for everyone.
Military action against the Israelis would make sense if the PLO or Hamas or any other group had a chance of succeeding. But they don't!
How many lessons do we have to attend to learn that with each round of violence the Israelis get stronger?
How many dunams of Palestine must be lost until we learn these lessons.
How many Palestinians must die until we learn these lessons?
How many years will pass until we learn that the Muslim communities aren't coming to free Palestine?
By the time the Muslim world has the technology and the military competence and will to beat the Israelis and destroy Israel, there will be no Palestine left!
We laboured under sumud for years with the command wait we will liberate you. And when the Israelis let them come back, what then. Liberation??? No we got kleptocracy, murder, torture, lawlessness, organised crime.

 

You're right

It doesn't matter if a man holds a stick, has no stick or even beats the tiger with the stick, the tiger will always win. Especially if other people who can control the tiger refuse to do so. Even while the man is crying out for help while the tiger attacks him, all the zoo wardens are standing by watching him being savaged by the tiger. Every now and then, when the tiger pauses to take a bit of a breather, one of the zoo wardens (the US) helps the tiger by sharpening his claws, giving him plenty of food and water to regain his strength and a general all over body massage to help relax him and make him feel good before the next round. There are some zoo wardens who are speaking out about what is happening, but they are mainly being ignored and sidelined. They desperately want some action taken to stop this aggressiveness. They want the tiger to stop attacking the man and the man to stop hitting it with a stick. Regardless of what went on in the past. However, every time the man tries to stand up, he gets knocked down by the tiger again, and when he reaches for the stick, he is accused of being cruel to animals.

 

"Even while the man is crying

"Even while the man is crying out for help while the tiger attacks him, all the zoo wardens are standing by watching him being savaged by the tiger."

You forgot to mention that the man is suicide bombing and sending rockets at the tigers defenceless children.

Hang on, that doesnt ift with the analogy- oh well.

 

Israel is not a tiger it is a

Israel is not a tiger it is a snake...

 

Good point. Do you have any

Good point. Do you have any scientific evidence which backs up this claim?

 

The things I learned from

The things I learned from reading between the lines in your post:

1. Israel is not a tiger it is a jackal or a snake
2. You want us to believe it is invincable - remember Lebanon
3. You want resistance to occupation to be seen as the root of the violence not the violence of the occupiers.

Come back when you are a bit more subtle...go back to propaganda school.

 

Sorry Mazin, once again you

Sorry Mazin, once again you have listened to the nonsense you have heard in the media. This site shows the actual statistics of the missiles launched at Israel. As you can see, they never really stopped.

 

oops! forgot the

oops! forgot the link...

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2008/12/rocket-calendars.html

You may say this site is biased towards Israel, and you'd be right. But the facts speak for themselves.

 

Cease fire

Did Mark Regev really say that Israel had broken the ceasefire - I thought he had merely admitted to entering Gaza to blow up the tunnel the Palestinians were digging into Israel. Israel certainly did not invade Gaza - it just went in to try and capture the tunnel diggers.

Just saying something does not make it true, no matter how many times you say it. Only the gullible uneducated people believe propoganda like this - the rest of the world is now too wise to accept this sort of rhetoric without checking, especially when it comes to muslims, well know for exageration and twisting the truth. It does not help Palestinians in any way - in fact it harms their cause.

Concentrating on the I/P conflict of course, has always been the main way Islam tries to deflect the horrors of Darfur, the Yemen, South Thailand, the Phillipines and the human rights abuses happening all over the muslim world. It is old hat and only works to agitate the less educated masses of the muslim world.

Fact is that there was not one month during the six month "hudna" when the Palestinians did not fire rockets into Israel!. Hamas gets around this by saying "we didn't fire the rockets" and they may well have not, but as they know exactly what is going on in their territory and have tight control over it they must have know exactly who was firing the rockets and should have ensured that it didn't happen.

 

Serendipity, no doubt most

Serendipity, no doubt most ppl on this site will call you a zionist racist propogandist etc etc. for what you have just said.

I for one agree with you on most of it except one point:

"Just saying something does not make it true, no matter how many times you say it. Only the gullible uneducated people believe propoganda like this - the rest of the world is now too wise to accept this sort of rhetoric without checking, especially when it comes to muslims..."

I'm afraid I disagree with you here. Even well-educated, clearly intelligent people are all too willing to believe these lies and propoganda. Some of the posters on here for instance are clearly smart, they make good points and will never be convinced that Zionists aren't the bogeyman/devil.

Imagine you have been taught something all your life by family, friends and teachers, only to find solid, rational arguments which show that these teachings were wrong.

Most people who find themselves in this situation will choose to deny whats right in front of them. They will abuse and swear and proclaim: ISLAMOPHOBIA! But deep down they know the truth. It may however take them some time to admit it.

 

BB - you have a point

Peoples whose minds are brainwashed cannot see the reality - to understand a situation one has to have the intellectual ability read both sides of an argument and make an educated conclusion. If you can't, you will be doomed to suffer, whilst those that can move on and succeed. Unfortunately, Islam does not seem to allow critical and rational thinking, so will be forever doomed to victim status.

 

Gazans broke the ceasefire

+There was a ceasefire. Hamas held up their part of the ceasefire. Israel invaded Gaza and killed several Hamas militants, after three months of a 6-month long ceasefire.+

This is a total myth. I suggest you Google for "BBC Gaza Ceasefire June" and you will read a BBC report that the ceasefire was breached from Gaza on the 24th June 2008 - three days after it went in place, Perhaps someone has some evidence that its NOT true?

I doubt it!

 

As a Saudi...

... I have mixed feelings about Saudi having such a high military spending.

However, as a scientist, I am always weary about such statistics that are produced for the general public in order to highlight a point.

For example, I wonder WHAT was considered as military spending in order to produce these results. Is it purely arms sales, or does it include other hidden costs such as wages, medical costs, ongoing current conflicts, military pensions, spare parts, training...?

Knowing something about statistics and having some analytical skills, I know how easy it is to produce a nice looking diagram or pie chart that can show what you would like it to show.

Secondly, and I have thought about this for a while, I do not know whether it is best to produce the information as just a complete whole number (in dollars), per head or a percentage of a countries budget. I am sure that all three ways would produce different looking results, none of which is more authoritative than the others.

I am not asking anyone to ignore these figures, I am just saying beware of WHAT you read into them. The people who produced these figures obviously chose the result that would suit them best. You choose what suits you best.

 

paid stooges

To me it seems that the paid stooges that call themselves 'Kings and Princes' in Arabia are giving Muslim money to western powers so that they can keep their seats and carry on robbing their own population.
But that is my humble first thoughts on the matter

 

As one who...

...comes from one of those countries in Arabia, I am ashamed to say that I agree with you.

However, even though this is going on, I would like to point out that it isn't as bad as it has been in the past, and it looks like some of the Arabian countries are trying to ween themselves off their dependence on the West, very much like the West is trying to ween themselves off their dependence on the Arabian countries. This will off course result in more turmoil in the future, as the West would like to keep the Arabian countries dependent on them.

 

Pay Back?

Explanation.... could it is pay back to western countries for allowing them to rule Arabia and keep them in power?

 

It could be...

...a large amount of the money that is given to Israel by the American tax-payer, and voted through congress and/or the senate as "International aid", has to be spent on military procurement from the US.

In other words, the average American Joe pays his taxes. The American government would like to give this money directly to their friends in the arms industries, but can't do it directly, so instead, they label it as "International Aid", which the American people would be happy to accept, but then they add the the proviso to Israel that a large propoertion of the money has to be spent buying arms from American arms manufacturers, and everyone's happy.

The average joe thinks his money is going to some good cause, Israel get's to buy it's weapons and kill and oppress more innocent Palestinians, Arms manufacturers have made a lot of money, and the American politicians who scammed their own people get a lot of kickbacks from the arms manufacturers and as well as a lot of Jewish votes at the next elections. Everyone's happy. (Except the Palestinians, but they don't really count now, do they?)

 

Israel is surrounded by

Israel is surrounded by enemies, so it's not surprising that it spends so much on arms. It would be overrun if it wasn't so powerful.

 

The occupation of palestine

The occupation of palestine exists because of vassal states in the middle east. otherwise the zionist occupation would not last long,if the palestinians had weapons to fight for their freedom.
The vassal nations make sure no effective weapons reach the palestinian freedom fighters.

 

how can it be fixed?

how can it be fixed?

 

simple by getting morons like

simple by getting morons like you to stop the hate....

 

stop hating who?

stop hating who?

 

The Last Thing

The last thing the ME needs is more weapons. Even if the various factions had more weapons it is highly doubtful whether it would produce the outcome you desire. Weapons are not the answer, even if you regard a military solution as being desirable.
The fundamental weakness remains the poor quality leadership and military skills across both the militias and the national armies. Basic infantry discipline is missing at the ground level and there is no culture of seizing and holding territory. On a basic infantry discipline level comparisons between the conduct of IDF and Palestinian militias in non-combat and combat situations can readily show the weaknesses. Each time there is a funeral or some celebration the TV news shows us images of militia fighters blasting off copious amounts of ammunition to no benefit military benefit, it is just boastful noise. A clip of Kalashnikov 7.62mm ammunition costs far more than a Palestinian family's daily income. Even on the open market 7.62x39mm ammunition costs about 25 US cents on bulk purchases,the costs to the militias is muchhigher as they have to pay for transportation (smuggling). So eventually the cost is around 50 US cents. Thus the price of an entire clip is US$15. The average wage in Gaza is less than US$2.
We do not see the IDF blasting away with their rifles into the air. Besides being dangerous to bystanders (& people are killed & injured by falling bullets), it is enormously wasteful.
The illustration I provide is a small example of waste. If you extend that to the thousands that are spent producing the Qassam rockets and purchasing RPG's etc the cost becomes astonomical. There is also almost no residual value in military equipment, once a bullet or rocket is fired that's it. There is no money to buy advanced military equipment.
On the other hand investment in healthcare, education, regeneration, housing all produce residual value and RoI. If there was commitment to invest in the fabric of the Palestinian nation with the same enthusiasm as there is to buy military hardware then Palestine would be booming, regardless of world trends. Since 1993 there has been a dramatic fall in the incomes of the average Palestinian as they are now largely cut off from employment with Israel and access to israeli markets is also severely limited.
Regardless of how anyone feels about the Zionists, there are many lessons to learn from them. If we look at the first decades of modern Zionism they invested in infrastructure, health, enterprise and employment., and laid the foundations for their success. Our expactations and demands of the IDF are implicitly in recognition of the superior organisational and individual discipline they demonstrate.
Deluding ourselves that somehow with just a few more bullets that there will be a Palestinian state is pure fantasy born of shame and self-deception. In pursuit of a Palestinian state we have nothing to offer than non-violence. Every violence act serves to reinforce their hardliners and to alienate the Palestinian cause from the nations we need to apply pressure on the Israelis.
We need to massively develop the Palestinian economy to provide jobs. Not only for those un / under-employed at the moment, but also for all those fighters who have no peacetime skills. If we don't then the fighters will continue to dominate the debate and we will remain in the endless cycles of violence, in which we routinely lose.
If we collectively decide to continue the war then we should not cry when we and our children get hurt. Let's not pretend that the "justified resistance" is any better than the IDF's excesses. Let's not pretend that our children are more innocent than their children. let's not pretend that our bombs exploding in their civilian centres are more moral than their bombs exploding in our civilian centres.
If we want a future then build it with what we have to hand today. If we want war then prepare to die, because some of us will.

 

Q, I don't understand you.

Q, I don't understand you. Most of the time you make intelligent remarks then other times you lay into Zionists like they're the scum of the earth. (are there two ppl called Q?)

In answer to your thoughtful comment, the Palestinians don't want to live side by side with Israel. Their goal is to establish a state where the whole of Israel is now, with the Jews in exile or more preferably dead.

Any steps they might take towards statehood, such as setting up infrastructure would be seen as a betrayal of the Islamic committment to destroying Israel. Thus they need to be seen to be suffering and living in terrible conditions in order to put further international pressure on Israel.

They don't want a state.

 

What the Palestinians Want?

I am neither a zionist nor am I an idiot. Sometimes I am very angry. But I hope that I am honest enough to say what is good and bad with the Zionists.

Who are you to say what the Palestinians desire?
How would you know whether the reported opinions of Palestinians are accurate?
Consider this - An alleged collaborator can be arrested in the middle of the night. Subject to robust interrogation (torture) by any one fo the Palestinian security forces. Charged at 09:00. brought to trial at 10:00. Sentenced at 11:00. Executed at 12:00. There is no availability of an appeal process. This is the Palestinian legal process, this is what happens but does not get reported in the Independent. (fact between 1964 & 1984 the PLO killed about 700 Israelis. In the same period they killed about 38,000 Palestinians)
Would you chance expressing an opinion that really diverged from those of the ruling groups? Imagine what would happen if the ordinary people rose up and said "No more Fatah no more Hamas!" How many would be dead by sunset?
Have pity on the Palestinians trapped between the IDF and the various factions. Most Palestinians want peace, the chance to work and to enjoy their families - to be happy. Even if the Israelis pulled back to the Green Line it would make almost no difference - even the allegedly most incorruptible are stealing from the people. The ordinary people see the damage done and understand why the Israelis built their wall / fence. Even if the Israelis had built it on the Green Line it would have been a disaster for the ordinary Palestinian.
Even on this site when I try to pose an alternative opinion I am accused of being a Zionist. there is no debate about what might be. There is lots of talk of violence, and no thought of the price that the ordinary Palestinian will pay. Think what it would be like if these bloggers had Kalashnikovs and the Palestinian legal "system".

 

You're right. I'm sorry, I

You're right. I'm sorry, I said Palestinians when I should have said successive palestinian leaderships. (including Hamas and Fatah)

 

You're both Zionists!

One of you just happens to be more extreme and right wing than the other, (although, if you went further right than BB, you'd probably vanish and come out on the left).

Q, you say that you are not pro or anti either side, however, I have read a lot of your posts and they do seem to be slanted in favour of Israel. Whereas your writings are well thought out and articulate, with only a few factual erros, all your emphasis seems to be on what the palestinians could do, or what they should do. You give very detailed arguments about the Palestinians responsibilities and what they need to do, but you have never devoted as many column-inches to Israel as you do to Palestine. The only time you mention Israel is when you seem to throw your hands up in the air and say "they're both as bad as each other".

Take your posting above as an example, you point out the treatment of Palestinian collaborators and highlight it as a negative, but you fail to mention that French collaborators were treated in exactly the same during WWII, and most other collaborators in other conflicts. This is not a purely Palestinian problem, and you're attempt to portray it as such highlights your pro-Israel bias.

You state as a fact that the PLO killed 38,000 Palestinians between 1964 and 1984. Can I ask where you got this fact from?

If Israel pulled back to the Green line, it would make a lot of difference. It would make more difference if they not only pulled back to the Green line, but if they also allowed the refugees the right of return. Saying these things would make no difference is naivety beyond belief.

Reading a lot of the postings, the majority of bloggers do not advocate violence. I have never done so, mainly, they advocate fairness and equality. If a downtrodden and oppressed people cannot get the basic human rights that everyone else enjoys and takes for granted, they have every right to persue whatever means necessary to get it. Including violence against those who oppress them. The west has taught the rest of the world that might is right and that violence DOES solve some problems. You cannot the west cannot have it both ways, and the sooner they learn that lesson, the better the whole world will be.

You're really not convincing anyone that you're not a Zionist by arguing with BB. If you're really not a Zionist, let's see you posting some well articulated and constructive arguments against Israel as much as you do against Palestine.

 

Mazin, there are more than

Mazin, there are more than enough voices on this web site which argue against Israel. Like me, Q is one of the few to portray the other side of the story to balance things out a bit.

I am on the other side to you, so I am always going to seem extreme in your opinion. Q (who constantly uses 'we') is either Muslim or Palestinian or both(correct me if I'm wrong). Naturally he is not going to appear as extreme as I am. He is one of the few people on 'your side' who is not blindly opposed to Israel but looks into the issues more deeply. It is funny that as a result you label him as a Zionist.

To me you seem like the extreme one. It is all relative.

 

BB you racist bigot leave

BB you racist bigot leave mazin alone.

 

BB read my comments- if you

BB read my comments- if you think I am a bigoted racist there is something wrong with you.

 

Ali...

...don't bother with BB.

I have a history with him and I have come to the conclusion that he it is completely uselss to debate with him. He denies ANY truth that is pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel, he makes wild, unfounded accusations, refuses to apologise when proved wrong, is a self proclaimed Zionist who hates most Muslims (especially those like me who argue with him and prove him wrong). I'll give you an example of BBs misinformed, twisted and untractable mindset.

In another post, he claimed that the Palestinians suffering is because of other Arab countries, not because of anything Israel has done. In response, I was very sarcastic and said the following:

You heard it here first Ladies and Gentleman. It is the Arabs who are killing the Palestinians, denying them basic human rights, taking away their land and homes, denying them access to the resources of the area, built an apartheid state around them, treats them differently to the Israeli population, has imprisoned thousands of them, prevented them from seeking medical access, bombed their schools, stopped them from exporting their goods, cut down their imports from a list of over 9000 UN approved goods to under a dozen, refuses their refugees to return to their homes, evicts families and gives their homes to Jews, encourages the migration of Jews from around the world while at the same time getting rid of as many Palestinians as possible, ridiculing the investigations of independent NGOs, abuses it's relationship with the US and has ignored more UN sanctions against them than any other state in the world. NOT Israel.

Can you guess what BBs response was?

The fact that you swallow all of this propoganda shows what kind of person you are.

There is absolutely no point in entering into a debate with him. EVEN if youcan prove him absolutely and completely wrong, he will never accept it. He will lie, exaggerate, twist and wriggle, and when your argument is so strong that he can do none of those things, he slinks of to another thread and continues his mad hysterical rantings.

If you're looking for a debate with other Zionists, I would suggest, Q, Gay man and Joey Grimlock. Any one of them is a better class of Zionist than BB.

 

Ali - BB is not far off the mark

Whatever is happening in Palestine at the moment is the direct outcome of what happened in 1948 war and succeeding events in peace talks. If the Arab countries had not told the Palestinians to flee the war they were about to let loose on Israel there would be no refugees. You are not taking into account Resolution 242 which allowed Israel AND Palestine to declare separate statehood.

It was the surrounding Arab states who made the decision to go to war with Israel and create the conditions which now haunt the Palestinians. Israel never stopped the "Palestinians' from creating their own state - it was their muslim brothers in arms. And now they have just left Palestine in the lurch - the only real support from an Arab country was Iraq and all they did was pay off the families of suicide bombers. Even now, unlike the west, they still will not allow Palestinians citizenship in their countries.

Now Iran has taken up their cause - not because they care about the Palestinians, they just want the Israelis wiped out and are happy to use Hamas and Hezbollah to die for their cause.

It does not matter where one's sympathy lies, it matters that people understand the main cause of the Palestinians grief and blaming Israel for everything does not help them. As "Q" says, if the Gazaans, like those on the west bank, put their effort into creating a social fabric and constructive thinking of how best to build a state much of the suffering would be alleviated. But all the world sees is a society which seems intent on self destruction.

Arafat walked away from a brilliant deal because he preferred to be a power monger and fill his bank accounts from Western aid rather than put his people first. Hamas seem even worse!

 

Mazin, I have never had the

Mazin, I have never had the misfortune of communicating with someone so entirely without any form of logic or reasoning as you.

The other 'zionists' you refer to: O, gayman, joey, are not Zionists or even Jewish (correct me if I'm wrong).

I am Jewish and Zionist. To you that is extreme. To me you are extreme. You seem to link every single negative Muslim issue to Zionism in soe way or another. When you are argued with, you scream Islamophobia, you claim anti-semitism is a misuse of a word.

In short you do anything you can to divert the argument and then you claim that I am the one who: "lie, exaggerate, twist and wriggle"

You are pathetic Mazin.

 

Not one or the other

Re: OT's
I condemn Israel for its continued policy of expansion of the settlements and demand that they evacuate them. I condemn Israel for arrests without trial. I condemn Israel for excessive lethal force.
Re: Israel
I condemn Israel for allowing a conservative minority to determine the social policies for the Christian and Muslim minorities. I condemn them for not seeking to do more to integrate Christians and Muslims into their state. I condemn them for allowing religious institutions (Jewish, Muslim & Christian) to determine the direction of public policy. I condemn Israel for not upholding the values its founding fathers aspired to. I condemn the continued Herut - Likud fantasy of Greater Israel. I condemn them for the use of excessive lethal force directed towards non-Jews in the Arab Triangle.

However I have listened to them at a national political and a personal level. I have seen what they have done with their patch of land. I do recognise and acknowledge that the fact that some of the politicians have been brought to court for sexual misdemeanors and corruption is evidence of high standards in public life and a robust and independent judiciary. I do recognise that every Israeli enjoys more freedom than any other inhabitant in the region. I do acknowledge that they have, albeit it halfheartedly, attempted to support the creation of a Palestinian state following Oslo. I do acknowledge that Israelis are by regional standards liberal informed and caring. I do acknowledge that on a daily basis at a local level Israel instituations work positively with Palestinian institutions. I do acknowledge that Israeli institutions have facilitated knowledge transfer and training for Palestinians. I do acknowledge that Israelis by and large never celebrate the killing of any Palestinian and as a nation regard war with great sadness.
As I have said elsewhere there is much we can learn from the Zionists and the actual benefits of peace far outweigh any claimed benefit of war.
If you want to you can hate the Israelis. But hate like love is irrational and self-deceptive. I neither love them nor hate them. I recognise them for what they are, flawed individuals just like the rest of us.
But I am not interested in furthering the interests of Israel, I am absolutely committed to advancing the real interests of the ordinary Palestinian. More war, more poverty, more ignorance renders the Palestinian nation supine at the feet of the Zionists. I want that we stand up, look them in the eye, do what we say we will and commit ourselves to non-violence.
If we stopped the violence it might just be possible to re-assemble the 1919 Palestine (Israel, Palestine, Jordan) into a single economic unit that satisfies the needs of all it's inhabitants and can become an example to the rest of the ME. And then we all might think about bringing representive democracy to the region and watching tribal dictatorships come to an end.

 

So you are not a total devil,

So you are not a total devil, perhaps you stand a chance to see good and evil. I hope Allah softens your heart and makes you see the injustice your people are doing to mine.

 

No, I am worse

No Jamal I am worse than that. A devil, some Djinn who enters through the frailtiesof your mind merely exploits your inate desires for amusement at best.
I hope that you will question everything that you have heard since you were a child. I want you to question your fathers right to authority. I want you to challenge the imam who has drowned himself in islamic texts but knows nothing of ordianry people's lives. I want you to ask the man who swaggers about with a gun what benefit he thinks he is bringing to the ordinary people and by right does he consume the wealth of the ordinary people.
Only when you and everyone else starts to question the current mess can we possibly hope to be rid of the corrupt dictatorships and the obscenely abusive tribalism that current directs the ME.

 

Collaborators??

In the immediate post-liberation period in France and elsewhere in Europe there was violence towards collaborators. But it was quickly stamped out. I was not referring to the extra-judicial executions that have been carried out.
In the West Bank & Gaza under Palestinian law a person can be arrested, interrogated, charged, tired and executed for alleged collaboration without having access to a proper defence and is denied any right of appeal. This is open to gross abuse and is an absolute denial of basic human rights.
There is much talked about collaborators and in my experience they fall into 3 categories. Individuals who by virtue of bribes or blackmail do become spies for the Israelis. Individuals who volunteer their services in an act of revenge against an oppressor. Totally innocent people against whom the allegation is made for financial gain or out of jealousy.
The appallingly inadequate legal system means that these all get lumped together and the innocent are killed alongside the guilty. It also creates an atmosphere of fear in which the allegation fo collaboration can be used against you and against which it is nearly impossible to defend yourself.

 

Green Line

The Green Line is the 1949 ceasefire line. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians recognised it as being the international border between 2 states. Even Lord Caradon one of the authors of 242 was fully aware that the Green Line could not form the basis for a stable border. Of course if the Israelis pulled back to the Green Line, no doubt there would be rejoicing for a short while.
It would not faciliate the return of many Palestinians as the economy could not support them.

It would require the evacuation of every Jew east of the line including every Jew currently living in the Old City. This could only be achieved by compulsion and once that happened any hope of cooperation from Israel would be gone. The Israelis would simply close the borders and turn their back on Palestine. This would plunge the Palestinian economy into even worst conditions that at present.

Palestine needs Israeli cooperation if it is to come into being as a nation state. If the refugees are to return then the economy needs to be revived and developed. Unreported there is cooperation on practical issues such as regeneration, education, health care and the environment between Israel and Palestine. This cooperation must be expanded and deepened. Ideally in the long term the Green Line will become irrelevant if there can be real peace and open borders again.

 

P.S. We want a State

BB
p.s. we want a state with freedom and democracy and the rule of law for all. we want it so bad we can taste it. but we are weak and there is no one anywhere is going to stand up for us.

the virgin of palestine was torn from the shelter of her parents and subjected to the rapine lusts of her brothers.
then she was loaned out to be used by her cousins.
then she was beaten for bringing shame upon her family.
she is without hope and manages from day to day taking whatever pittance they will give her for the pleasure of using her more.
But one day she knows she will take her revenge, sweet revenge.
One day with the mobile phone that satan gives her she will call down the missiles from the sky that will strike her tormentors, her abusers and the fat women who bear the honour of the title of wife and not whore.
They may find her and beat her to death as punishment, but she will know that she has taken her revenge.

 

What a great thought....

What a great thought....

 

and that is why Israel spends

and that is why Israel spends so much on its defences.

 

Other peoples money

that makes sense, but why do they keep spending other people's money on their defence is the question?

 

because they wouldn't have

because they wouldn't have enough otherwise

 

Well spoken, now to make sure

Well spoken, now to make sure us American's pay for our hospitals rather than Israel's bombs..

 

vote in ron paul next time

vote in ron paul next time

 

You they made friends they

You they made friends they wouldn't have enemies would they? Except that would mean giving up what they stole from the Palestinians.

 

Simon it is not whether it is

Simon it is not whether it is pay back for allowing them to rule, it is a fact that arab nations are ruled by western vassals.
The saudis being the among the frist and staunchest of western vassals.
Trillions invested by despotic rulers of the arab world in western econimies while arab and nonarab muslim nations go begging for loans before world bank and imf.
In my opinion the muslim world will not change as long as these vassals are in power.

 

an invasion might be in order

an invasion might be in order

 

I agree Israel should invade

I agree Israel should invade instead of getting America to do its dirty work. That way we can really hit the pupper master and not the puppet.

Empowerment through political participation

Recent comments

Copyright MPACUK © 2000-2009. All rights reserved

The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value. I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death

— Thomas Paine