It is very sad cop out it seems - the discussion regarding "Zionism" - essentialy a political dogma of European origin based on the idea of racial supremacy & "Judiasm" a semitic monotheistic religion from the Middle East is hardly a controversial subject. 100s of books have been written on the subject.

Why do people get so defensive when accused of "denying the Holocaust?"

The zionists have made it an artificial crime to question, research or speak about the Nazi Holocaust. They do so because it is upon the gross exaggerations, with no evidence, that they gained the sympathy from the guilt-ridden Western leaders on who they relied to create an illegal state in Palestine.

As the Iranian president rightly said, you can question the existence of God, you can question the existence of any Prophet, but if you dare deny the Holocaust, the Israel terrorism sympathisers are up in arms.

When reading the MECO story, remember that Taj Hargey is the guy who has alliances with John Ware - the guy who makes poisionous anti-Muslim Panorama documentaries and he is frequently commended by the zionist Telegraph and the extremist pro-Israel blog Harry's Place.

so what, that dosent mean Zionists can ban freedom of speech.

Just shows how perverse MPAC are in their understanding of religion, exposing Zionism takes precedence in their minds, over an above the sanctity and station of the narrations, Sahih hadith and Sunnah of our beloved Prophet...I say this because MPAC know full well that the front man of this discredited MECO grouping is Mr Taj 'Heretic' Hargey is a hadith rejectionist.

People like Imran Karim should get his facts straight. Dr Hargey has no alliances with any rightwing groups, let alone the Tory party. Why is it when he speaks the truth about the rot in the MCB that he is attacked? My advice to people like Imran Karim who lack introspection and are incapable of self-criticism about the innumerable ills in the Muslim community is to stop shooting the messenger and absorb the message. Dr Hargey's fearless message is to tackle extremism and fanaticism in all its forms, be it in Islam, Judaism, the BNP etc. You may not agree with his views but he is consistent and principled, which you cannot say about either the MCB, the mullahs or their blind supporters. More power to MECO for standing up to the Zionists. Can you name ANY mosque or Muslim group that has also done so in the full glare of publicity/ Muslims like these are generally cowards and hide behind the rhetoric of Islam but not its reality.

Yeah, but don't forget, these Zionazi's only care for themselves. I hope this is a lesson for Harjey, or maybe this is a calculated effort by himself to buy sum credibility.

The Jewish objection to this rabbi appears not be founded in allegations of Holocaust Denial, but that this man asserts that the Jews were "deserving" of the Holocaust. His views are clearly those of a very small minority of Jews and we should be careful awarding him status as a representative of Judaism. Careful because we are not arbiters of what defines Judaism and the obvious argument amongst Jews is their own business. Careful also because by offending Jews we reinforce the profound polarisation that exists between Muslims and Jews.

Assalaam alaikum and Greetings

The efforts of an organisation to allow free-speech, in this case the difference between zionism and judiasm against the wishes of zionists/Israeli supporters, is to be applauded.

BUT, lets not get too carried away with promoting MECO and Dr Taj.

Because this organisation (MECO) HAS and WILL use the same means of free speech to challenge the fundamental beliefs of Islam.

A case in point : Allowing Amina Wadud (a so-called woman scholar) to lead mixed-sexed congregational prayers in the guise of making a point about what women can do in Islam. Which is totally against the view of the Muslim masses.

MPACUK, you are agreeing with the stance MECO are taking against zionists and the promotion of free speech. Just be careful when the same MECO use the same stance and the same free speech in other areas which MPAC may not agree with.

You need to make it quite clear that ON THIS ISSUE, we agree with the stance of MECO.

BUT, on other issues such a women being allowed to lead prayers, about women not needing to wear hijab/niqabs, about hadiths being fabricated, we STRONGLY DISAGREE.

Wasalaams

Why is it that so many people think they have the right to condemn anyone as a heretic? Who gives them that power? Do they have a direct line to Allah or is it the corrupt and discredited mullhah who propagate such rubbish, Where does it state in the Qur'an that you must believe every hadith however contradictory it is? Why should Muslim women follow the hadith however supposedly authentic when they are so clearly biased in favour of men. If, according to the hadith men will have 72 beautiful virgins, will I have 72 young male virgins if I die in the path of Allah? Such kind of rubbish in the hadith makes me cringe and cry out why is it that it is mainly men who thrust this medieval junk into our faces. Thank God there are Muslim intellectuals like Dr Taj Hargey who is prepared to take on the accumulated morass of the past 1400 years which has only brought our beautiful faith to ridicule.

Mr Harvey should also stop attacking the messengers and absorb the message. If nothing else, this would be the best thing he could ever to for himself and this ummah.

The Hadiths are not all infallible we all know that, there are weak hadiths, it is for that reason people should consult a alim instead of deciding which they think is right or wrong.
As to the issue about eqaulity for muslim females with muslim males, that shall never happen for the simple reason men and women are designed for two diffrent and in some cases overlapping roles.
It has been proven scientifically and biologically that men are the stronger mentally or physically whereas women are the more pain bearing and emotionaly.
When you design a video and a dvd they both will work when the right material is used, if you put a dvd in a vcr it will not work and vice versa.
So as muslims we beleive Allah the alimighty has set up roles for us and as he created us he knows best what we are capable of.
I personally do not know who this Dr.Taj Hargey is but if he wishes to introduce something new in matters of faith which condtradicts what our Prophet S.A.W did then he will fail like all others before have.
Ayesha Khan if you think this person is better than the Sahaba and their generations than i can only say that you are sadly very much mistaken or are using a muslim sounding name.
As for zionists the truth is their enemy and they will fight hard to suppress it.

No muslim "condemns" anyone else as a heretic. But if someone IS a heretic, then you have to tell them so that they can change and not be "condemned" to hell which is far worse.

From what I believe of the Neturei Karta they are viewed as best in there community as 'loons' and 'nut jobs', and thats coming from mainly reformist modern Jews.

People who criticise MECO and Dr Hargey has never done anything constructive themselves to uplift the ummah. Idiots harp about the sanctity of the hadith as if Bukhari and company are some kind of divine figures. No, they were just ordinary guys who wrote what they were told from the hundreds of thousands of legends, fairy tales and stories that were floating around 300 years after the Prophet's death, If these human compilations are sacred, why are there so many contradictions in them? Why are there hundreds of stupid tales that make no sense, like this classic one. According the Bukhari, the prophet said that if a fly falls into your tumbler of water or beverage, you should take it out, tear off one wing (it does not say which side) and then place the other wing into the glass, and then drink it. Now how many hadith worshippers will do so? Not me, as that hadith is pure fiction and utter rubbish. By the way, so what if Neterei Karta is a fringe group. At least they have the guts to say that Zionism is not Judaism and for that alone they have my respect.

Its nonsense to claim Hargey is not allianced with the right. You just have to research his activities and who promotes and routinely quotes him as a supposed authority to realsie he is constantly bashing mainstream Muslims.

As for this event, I dont even know whether Hargey was going to argue in favour or against.

The difference between Neturei Karta and Zionists is one of timing. Zionists want Israeli sovereignty to prevail and the 3rd Temple to be built now. NK believe it should only happen after the coming of the Messiah.

MECO and Hargey are always the first to demonise and criticize mainstream Muslim organisations to appease and gain favour with the right and promote their own minority views and brand, just like Quilliam. Now that some of their Zionist friends have turned on them, they are trying to look for allies amongst the very Muslims they have been demonising - naive of MPAC to fall for it.

Shan - because I am a small slim female I would agree with you that physically I am no match for a man (or boy) but I take exception to your claim that mentally I am inferior to the male species. In fact, I know that I have a superior intellectual and educational level far beyond that of many men I know!

I don't know where you found proof(scientifically and biologically) that men were mentally superior to women - if you could direct me to the written evidence of this I would be extremely grateful as I certainly have never seen it proven in any medical or scientific journal used in the modern world.

Assalaam alaikum and Greetings

From ISLAMTODAY

As far as our scientific knowledge of the fly is concerned, we know that the fly is a carrier of numerous harmful microorganisms.

We also know that the surface and internal environments of the fly are both complex biological environments in which thrive numerous microorganisms, some of which are harmful to humans, some of which are benign to us.

R. J. Dillon of the University of Bath, Department of Biology and Biochemistry, mentions that new kingdoms of life have been found among the microorganisms living on or within insects

some of the microbiota of the housefly (Musca domestica) has the ABILITY TO SUPPRESS DISEASE-causing bacteria.

Some of us might find the idea of dunking a fly in our beverage, removing it, and then taking a drink unsettling to say the least. This is especially the case if we have had the privilege of living our lives in a modern society, free of hunger and starvation, where a certain standard of cleanliness is maintained in the environment and it is relatively easy to protect our food and drink from flies and other pests.

However, a ruling such as the one mentioned in the hadîth becomes painfully relevant to those who live with hunger and in less sanitary environments where protecting food from flies is not so simple and throwing away food and drink is not so easy an option.

Such an environment was that of Arabia 1400 years ago, and regrettably, there are still many places in the world where we find scarcity and what by today’s assessment are sub-standard living conditions.

People under such circumstances quite often do consume food and drink that has come in contact with flies. If they had to discard all such foods, merely because a FLY dipped into it, it would impose a serious hardship upon them.


########

So, Scientifically, it appears that FLYS contain both harmful and beneficial bacteria. The beneficial bacteria counteract the effects of the harmful. If it did not, then the FLY itself would die due to the harmful bacteria it carried.

QUESTION :

If Scientific evidence has recently found this, through the use of microscopes, laboratory tests, then how did the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) know this fact without such instrumentation and experiments.

HOW can you persist is claiming this HADITH is nonsense, and mand-made, when latest scientific findings claim that the fly ALSO carries beneficial disease suppressing bacteria.

The nonsense here is to take such HADITHS and just because one does not understand it, or has no scientific proof, you claim HADITHS are fabricated and man-made.

The HADITH appears to have proven itself.

Wasalaams

Kiwi by mentally i meant critical thinking and mental toughness in wars.
As i stated women are the more emotional ie able to relate to pain and suffering, they also have a higher tolerance to pain or annoyance then men.

Every animal(including insects) has colonies of pathogenic and beneficial(commensals and symbiotes)bacteria.When the enviroment for these bacteria change even the beneficial bacteria can become pathogenic.Moreover,commnensal bacteria for one kind of organism are often pathogenic for another.
The fly is hardly an exception, and is well recognised as a common pathogenic bacteria and virus vector for humans disease.
It doesn't explain the irrational hadith of drinking a glass of water with 1 fly wing in it,after the fly has drowned in it.Shockingly,it does not specify which wing!Amazingly, it hasn't really caught on as a recommended 'prescription'((if that is what Shan believes it to be).That is,you don't seen Muslims in fly-infested markets joyfully plucking off fly wings to drop into their beverages out of reverence for this hadith.I expect most of them take a common sense approach and give the flies a burial either down a drain,a bin or into the earth.So,are they ignorant,unconvinced or even repelled by this hadith?Prophet Muhammad's success in his mission could hardly have been possible if he had advocated ingesting the wings of drowned flies(or dunked according to Shan.)It seems there are hadiths which have been kept to be the 'fly in the ointment' with regard to the reputation of Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H.) or Islam.
Consider what the Bible(King James Version)has to say:Ecclesiastes 10:1
"Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour."

It seems that Imran Karim knows nothing about Dr Taj Hargey and his ignorance is there for everyone to see. If he or any of other anti-MECO fool ever took the time to attend the Friday Prayers held by MECO, or come to the highly-acclaimed Qur'an seminars he conducts every Tuesday evening, you will soon come to know that Dr Hargey attacks both New Labour and the Tories with equal vehemence. He has never forgiven the Conservative party for supporting white South Africa when he was a committed anti-apartheid activist in his homeland, and he will never vote Labour again as they have betrayed their socialist roots and have the blood of one million Iraqis on their hands. Dr Hargey's principled opposition to Zionism stems from his early realisation that Apartheid and Zionism is two sides of the same coin. It is not something recent if any of you had the decency to meet with him and discuss his views in a civilised manner. But I guess these petty cowards do not understand the Qur'an's injunction not to believe anything unless you have VERIFIED it (17:36; 49:6).

Let me openly challenge idiots like Imran and unthinking hadith worshippers like Sultan to have the courage of your convictions and confront Dr Hargey directly, instead of hiding behind cowardly internet postings. Only once they have done so, will their spurious remarks about the only Imam who fights against both secular injustice and religious tryanny have any merit.

As for speaking about the rot in present-day Muslim society, he says it is his Islamic duty to expose the hypocrisy and corruption of the mullahs in Britain. While uninformed people like Imran Karim spouts his baseless nonsense, he has no credibility unless he can corroborate his views. If rightwing newspaper report what Dr Hargey is doing and Muslim publications do not because they are afraid their mullah masters, how it that his fault.

One final thing: Would Sultan drink in public a glass of water that has a fly in it. We leave him to decide which wing he will swallow and which one he will through out. The supposed scientific evidence he offers has been effectively rebutted in other compelling studies. Oh I am really looking forward to seeing Sultan in action with fly in the water. Come on Sultan, just tell us where and when you will do it? It seems that hadith lovers will do anything to 'prove' that ALL hadith are authentic. But all their efforts are doomed to failure. How to make a false hadith into a true one. Come on Sultan, you are the king of hadith worshippers, so let us see some action.

Guess who has become the Daily Mail's (and MPAC's it seems) favourite 'Muslim cleric'?
From Engage

It’s no surprise that the right-wing paper the Daily Mail should promote the likes of Taj Hargey in this puff piece. His ‘be neither seen nor heard’ variety of Muslim existence in Britain would be of obvious appeal to the Mail and its readership.

The paper introduces Hargey contrasting him to ‘the highest-profile Muslim preachers, the bearded, anti-Western firebrands such as Abu Hamza or Omar Bakri’.

No mention, of course, that these firebrands enjoy the ‘highest profile’ on account of the news coverage offered them by, among other newspapers, the Daily Mail and not because of any mass support amongst UK Muslims.

Here is just a selection of Hargey’s remarks in the Mail’s feature story:

'It is the extremist ideology present in many UK mosques which is the cement behind nihilistic plots such as this [7/7]’.

Which is what the government tried to argue in 2005 and was forced to retreat after the Muslim Council of Britain, with the support of churches and other organisations, challenged the assumption that the 7/7 bombers were the product of teaching in British mosques.

'This is a big fight for the hearts and minds of Islam. There is nothing in the Koran which is incompatible with (living in) British society, unlike what I call "Mullah Islam" and their reliance on hadiths.

‘All that stuff about jihad, women's rights, apostasy, all these issues come from the hadiths.

'We do not say get rid of the hadiths. But we do say that every hadith must pass two litmus tests.

‘First, it must not conflict with the Koran. Second, it must not conflict with reason or logic.’

As genuine Islamic scholars have long noted, much of the religious instruction in the Qur’an relies on the hadith for its execution. For example, the five daily prayers. Their requirement is stated in the Qur’an but how the prayer is to be performed is gleaned from the prophetic example and its documentation in the corpus of hadith narrations.

More worrying is Hargey’s argument of the ‘litmus test of reason and logic’ that hadith ought to be subjected to. For Muslims, the litmus test is essentially the hadith’s accuracy in terms of its chain of narration, determining whether the source of the narration is reputable and its transmission, reliable and verifiable.

To subject hadith to the litmus test of reason and logic begs the question, whose reason and whose logic? Hargey’s? No, thanks.

Hargey asks: 'How can we be dependant on 10th-11th-century jurists and scholars? It makes no sense.'

No it doesn’t. But it makes less sense to pose this question when Hargey ought to know well that Muslims in every era seek instruction and opinion from the scholars of their age. Posing this false regressive position may make Hargey appear avant garde to his supporters, but for those of us that know only too well that Islamic thinking is grounded in its context, the idea that Muslims are only ever looking backwards and not forwards is a false representation.

Hargey’s remark also bears a tinge of nihilism. 10th and 11th century Islamic scholars may not be absolutely relevant to Muslims in the 21st century, but for as much as their scholarly output belongs to the body of Islamic archives and Islamic thought’s historical development, there is still much value in their appreciation.

Finally, on the MCB, Hargey claims:

'They are Indo-Pakistani and sexist’ … ‘a reactionary group, infused with the repressive ideology of the Wahhabis.’

'If we go along their path we will have a ghetto mentality, segregated and giving our enemies such as the British National Party the opportunity to target us like the Jews in the 1930s. Isolation is our greatest peril.'


'These people are religious fascists. The view that Islam is incompatible with British society is something that the Muslim Council of Britain and their hangers- on have promulgated.'

Unpacking all of this:

(a) The vast majority of Muslim organisations in Britain could reasonably be labelled Indo Pakistani simply because they represent the majority ethnic groups from which British Muslims hail.

(b) ‘Sexist’ – really? Is that why the current Assistant Secretary General of the MCB, Dr Reefat Drabu, is a woman and the former Treasurer, Unaiza Malik, also a female? And what sex is Taj Hargey?
(c) ‘Infused with the repressive ideology of the Wahhabis’ – a frequent allegation made by those that prefer to trade in lies and not facts. The MCB’s ethos and aims are very clearly stated on its website and its work in ‘promoting the common good’, in partnership with other faith and non faith based organisations on a myriad of issues, are all well documented on its website.

Mis-labelling the MCB and its work is a familiar ruse employed by those who try so hard to appear revolutionary in their methods and thinking. All too often, their need to stand out from the crowd requires them to mis-portray others.

(d) 'If we go along their path we will have a ghetto mentality… The view that Islam is incompatible with British society is something that the Muslim Council of Britain and their hangers- on have promulgated.'

The MCB has never advocated isolation, a ghetto mentality or the view that Islam is incompatible with British society. With a motto that has at its heart ‘the common good’, how could isolation ever be an objective? And the MCB has in its very name the focus of its identity and work, ‘Britain’.

Hargey is no more than a self publicist and but another example of someone trying desperately hard to claim for himself a mantle he neither warrants nor enjoys.

Its interested to note that those multiple posters defending and promoting "Dr Taj Hargey" follow the same writing pattern and appear to be the same 1-2 persons.

Hargey is the same man who has been reported as picketing on behalf of the BNP, inviting Christian clergy to deliver the Friday Khutbah, offering legal funds to a school to help them stop a girl from wearing Hijab, and who has a few dozen followers out of 1.8 million Muslims in this country.

The imams and mullas in our 1200+ UK mosques may bring some cultural baggage with them and may not be the most media savvy, but their wisdom and depth of understanding makes them closer to Islam then Hargey and his publicity-seeking bandwagon ever will be.

His 2 "litmus tests" for determining if a hadith is authentic is no more than a laughable, subjective pick-and-choose appeasement process to carry favour with the Islamophobes in government and media who will never accept Islam and Muslims until we give up its principles and "... follow their way" (Al-Baqarah:120)

For those who claim its not Hargey's fault that he is frequently quoted in Islamophic articles in the zionist-run media, did John Ware hold a gun to his head to force him onto Panorama, or did the BNP threaten him that he made his offer in todays Daily Mail of giving £5 to every Muslim to leave the UK for Pakistan or Sudan?

If that is true that he is said he will pay british muslims £5 to leave their country then i shall personally pay this patrionising full of himself person £100 to leave britian and go back to south afirca or wherever he is from.

Assalaam alaikum

I don't worship HADITH. I worship Allah, and acknowledge the noble position of the Prophet (PBUH).

Just like the Muslim masses, I also acknowledge the position of Authentic HADITHS. Just because you may not like their contents does not mean that they are falsified, and they don't come from the mouth of the Prophet (PBUH) himself.

Your denial of HADITHS and the way they are collected does amount to REJECTING what the Prophet is reported to have said. Thus, rejecting some words of the messenger himself.
Can you be 100% certain that these hadiths which you class as false are not from the Prophet. On what basis are you 100% sure.

You talk about the FLY hadith as a classic example. Just as someone talks about the Camel Urine HADITH as being unsound and totally fake. And yet (interestingly) modern medicine makes use of Horses Urine to treat menopausal women. See PREMARIN.

I'm sure it must have come as a great shock to those hadith-rejectors who dismissed the camels urine hadith as beyond logic, only to find the modern world was giving medication sourced from horses urine, to menopausal women.

What you should be asking is how did the prophet know of the medicinal properties in urine ? despite the fact that the thought of using urine as medication is revolting. Isn't the camel urine hadith now proven via scientific fact and medicine.

I will defend the authentic hadiths, no matter how strange, harse or unrealistic they may sound, on the basis that they come from the Prophet himself. That is a good enough reason for me.

We may not have the answers yet to some hadiths or fully understand what they are talking about, but just because we do not does not mean we can put these into the bin and reject them.

The same HADITHS which you find unsound and man-made also talk about the advent of the QURAN-only group. But, to you, this hadtih is unsound and nonsense.

To me, it proves their authenticity when they spoke about your kind some 1400 years ago (foretelling the future). Plenty of ammunication for me to counter your arguments : anytime, anyday.

Here, see for yourself

Abu Dawud Collection
Book 40, Number 4587:
Narrated Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Beware! I have been given the Qur'an and something like it, yet the time is coming when a man replete on his couch will say: Keep to the Qur'an; what you find in it to be permissible treat as permissible, and what you find in it to be prohibited treat as prohibited. Beware!

I'm curious of one thing, though. If the litmus test of a sound hadith is whether it makes sense to you, then how do you justifiy the Quranic verse which appears to suggest that the Sun sets in a Mirky water. This defies scientific logic too, and yet I am certain you will offer explanations for it.

"...Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people.” (Holy Qur’an 18:83-86)

At least I am consistant in my defence of the Quran and Hadiths. Yet you will defend the above Quranic verse, but reject hadiths talking along similar lines.

With regards to challenging Dr Taj, will it make any difference to his views? I think not.

Not when he considers hadiths suspect.
Not when he considers the messenger as "only a man", comparable to other men.
Not when he considers, anything not found in the Quran has not been forbidden.

The verse "to you be your way, to me be mine" springs to mind.

I would rather channel my efforts in other ways.

1) Mosque reform, so that educated people run them.
2) Adhering to the teaching of the QURAN/HADITHS. 3) Educating people on the misconception of following ONLY the quran.
etc

Wasalaams

The question hadith zealots would need to ask themselves is whether they are prepared to take the responsibility of believing all so-called 'authentic' hadiths to be condoned by Allah(SWT)before Allah(SWT)Himself? To attribute a even a potential falsehood to anyone,especially a Prophet(PBUH) amounts to slander, irrespective of even an 'innocent intent'.
The Qur'an was documented at the time of revelation,not after Prophet Muhammad's(PBUH) death.Allah(SWT) Himself attests to this in the Qur'an and also that He will keep the Qur'an as a 'protected Book' which has proven to be the case to date.
RE: [I will defend the authentic hadiths, no matter how strange, harse(harsh?) or unrealistic they may sound, on the basis that they come from the Prophet himself. That is a good enough reason for me.]
It is simply impossible to designate any statement attributed ,to anyone 200-250 years after their death as 'authentic' when the evidence of these statements are merely oral accounts.Beyond a few offical documents,there are no written references to Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) up until the time of the Hadith publication.The supposedly meticulous method of subsequent documentation of these oral accounts, and corroboration by other hadith collectors is not a measure of proof of actual statement by Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).What it demonstrates is what a selective group of people from the Mideast 2-3 centuries after Prophet Muhammad's(PBUH)heard to be said about him,i.e hearsay,not true evidence.
Hence the hadith cannot then be said to be the equivalent of "Obeying the Messenger is obeying God." (Qur'an 4:80).
Moreover the Qur'an says:
'Your only mission(Muhammad) is to deliver (Qur'an), while it is We who will call them to account."(13:40)
"Say (Muhammad),'I possess no power to harm myself, or benefit myself.'"(10:49)
"Say (O Muhammad), 'I possess no power to harm you, or benefit you'" (72:21)
Ironically and perversely one of the books of Hadith, i.e Muslim & Ibn Hanbal, states "Abi Saeed AlKhudry may God be pleased with him reported that the messenger of God may God exalt him & grant him peace had said, 'Do not write anything from me except the Qur'an. Anyone who wrote anything other than Qur'an shall erase it.'" !
It would seem that this 'authentic hadith' managed to be respected up until 2-3 centuries after the Prophet demise.
Indeed,on the hadith issue amongst Muslims it would be good practice for us to be able to use personal discretion and 'say to you be your way and to me mine' and 'no doubt when our time comes Allah(SWT) will judge between us.'