| Meco: Zionists trying to Shut Down Free Speech |
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| Monday, 27 April 2009 | |
 MECO (Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford) has been under intense
pressure to cancel an event exposing the difference between Zionism and
Judiasm. MECO has been inundated with hate calls, emails and threats
and the venue at Wolfston College, Oxford have also been lobbied to
withdraw their support. MECO, however, are laudably standing their
ground and standing up to this unworthy and low attempt to silence free
speech. If this event goes ahead, Zionists will undoubtedly try to gatecrash and to spoil the talk. If you’re in Oxford, please go and play 'spot the Zionist'. They’re easy to spot - look for the ones who will be interrupting and disrupting the event. You never know, if MECO are lucky they will walk out early, preferably straight into an oncoming bus. MPACUK welcomes MECO's stand and asks why more Islamic institutions are not taking on the Zionists on their racist and vile ideology. Why aren’t more Muslim organisations forcing their congregation to confront the active Zionist Lobby who are trying to prevent free speech? By standing up and exposing the Zionists Lobby’s hardball tactics to close down free speech, we are doing a service to Jews, gentiles, Muslims, Britain and civil society. MPACUK welcomes MECO's brave stand. Meco's press release as follows.
MECO BOLDLY INVITES LEADING ANTI-ZIONIST JEW TO REFUTE ISRAELI PROPANGANDA
Thursday, 30th April 2009 @ 6pm at Wolfson College, Oxford University. In view of Israel’s indiscriminate slaughter of Gaza’s civilian population a few months ago and given the pre-meditated walkout last week by guilt-ridden Western nations (including the UK) at the intrepid speech of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad attacking Zionism at the UN conference on Racism in Geneva, MECO hosts one of the most influential British-based Jews and anti-Zionist religious leaders to give a public lecture in Oxford. Rabbi Ahron Cohen, Jewish theologian and peace activist from Manchester will deliver a pertinent and provocative presentation entitled: ZIONIST IS NOT JUDAISM – ANTI-ISRAELISM IS NOT ANTI-SEMITISM Rabbi Cohen is the most prominent and fearless figure in the British chapter of Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), an international Jewish organization. This orthodox Hasidic Jewish community bluntly condemns Zionism (the political movement created by secular European Jews in the late 19th century to establish the state of Israel on confiscated Palestinian lands) as a an ‘abomination and poison’ threatening all ‘true Jews’. Rabbi Cohen insists ‘that the underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East is the state calling itself Israel. It should be totally and peacefully dissolved’. In its place, he declares, ‘there should be a country fully in accordance with the aspirations of all Palestinians when both Arabs and Jews will be able to live harmoniously together as they did for centuries before the shameful advent of Zionism’. In fact, Neturei Karta boldly believes that the very notion of an Israeli political entity is contrary to the authentic tenets of Judaism. Since this contrary view by devout Jews conflicts directly with conventional Zionist narratives and effervescent Israeli propaganda in the West’s media, Rabbi Cohen’s presentation will set the record straight from the perspective of orthodox Jewry. This extraordinary and brave man of peace compellingly argues that most Western nations have eagerly embraced Zionism as a form of ‘atonement’ for their collective guilt complex for 2000 years of Christian-inspired anti-Semitism and their complicity in or incapacity to halt the Nazi Holocaust of European Jewry. Rabbi Cohen’s topical lecture will provide a thorough theological, historical and political demolition of nefarious Zionist ideology and provide a legitimate alternative solution to the current impasse in the Holy Land. Once publicity for Rabbi’s Cohen lecture was circulated a fortnight ago, MECO has been bombarded by emails, letters and phone calls from furious Zionists and irate Israelis calling for the lecture to be called off and even questioning the religious credentials of the Rabbi himself. Joy Wolfe, a self-confessed Zionist wrote: “Firstly he is not a Rabbi, secondly he is an isolated individual who is shunned by all except his fellow anti-Zionists and he most certainly is not a man of peace. I am somewhat shocked that an organisation such as yours which has a reputation for moderation and not extremism should give a platform to this inciter of hatred, and laud him in such glowing terms”. MECO has been inundated with similar protests, all designed to stop Rabbi Cohen from speaking at our Monthly Forum. A nameless but rabid supporter of Israel retorted: “Those who support Aharon Cohen's extreme view, calling Zionism a cancer and challenging the legitimacy of the Jewish state and inciting hatred against Israel with their behaviour are not the true face of the anti-Israel lobby, they are only disguised anti-Semites”. When MECO refuted the false allegations leveled against Rabbi Cohen and demanded that his detractors prove that he is not a recognized Rabbi, their response was particularly reflective of a rather perverse mentality: “One way to end this would be to ask Aharon Cohen to show the certificate of proof that he IS indeed a rabbi”. Another uncritical Israeli partisan lamely justified his opposition to a fellow Jew: “All I do know is that he was a very prominent figure in last year's Holocaust denial conference in Iran and he is a trophy ‘celebrity’ at all high profile anti Zionist gatherings with his offensive and inciting posters”. Despite persistent intimidation and threats, MECO is determined to welcome Rabbi Cohen and afford a public platform to this honest proponent of justice for the Palestinians. MECO is the only Muslim organisation in Oxford (with no mosques following suit) to issue public calls for a comprehensive boycott of all Israeli products (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/search/4..._support_Gaza/) and for the indictment of Tony Blair as a war-criminal for launching the illegal war against Iraq. (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...r-430596.html). Such high-profile activity is in conformity with MECO’s original charter to promote theological rationalism as well as political activism within the Muslim community.    Readers have left 35 comments.
wendymann:
is isreal really the home of judaism. i mean is this the morality and ethics of judaism that israel employs against the dispossessed people of 1948?
are zionists claiming that the true face of judaism is the political leadership of israel as it is today and has been for the last 60 years? is Rabbi Cohen or are the zionists really the enemy of judaism and israel or its greatest friend. no contest really.
(1)
2009-04-27 14:00:25
Commando:
Before they picked Palestine to re settle and invade some of the other nations being floated around were Uganda, and Zimbabwe.
(2)
2009-04-27 14:36:48
Imran Zain:
And Argentina apparently. Also I recall Morman teachings (a branch or separate branch of Christianity) that they call for Jews to live in the New Jerusalem which is their church in the USA.
(3)
2009-04-27 15:07:40
Templar:
you would not know freedom of speech if it punched you in the face and said,hello,my names freedom of speech!commando prick,stay of off ANY subject that involves having to use facts and brains,you are lacking in both!
(4)
2009-04-27 16:01:38
Freedom Holder:
People want to listen to the truth and are fedup from lies and rejecting the aggressors in all walks of life !
(5)
2009-04-27 16:06:13
Mohammad Anwar Hanif:
This is fantastic news that MECO is hosting an influential Rabbi who is against Israel. I will certainly be attending this public lecture at Oxford University. This is not the first time that MECO has taken the lead amongst Muslim groups in exposing Zionism in Oxford and I am confident that it will not be the last. While the mosques repeatedly lectures people about the length of their beards and the covering of women's heads, and other inconsequential items, they do nothing to inspire the Muslim ummah to become politically engaged. Here in Oxford all the mosques persist in playing the fiddle while Jerusalem / Gaza is burning. More power to MECO for daring to take on the Zionist establishment as well as the cowardly mosque committees! We need more of the kind of activism, not less.
(6)
2009-04-27 17:06:14
Harvey:
You are being truly stiffed if you believe Neturei Karta are sticking up for Palestinian rights . The reality is that their Anti Zionism and rejection of the State of Israel is based on their belief that only the advent of the new Jewish Messiah can herald the establishment of Religious Israel whereupon all non believers will experience the wrath of God and consumed in fire. Sorry to say that includes Muslims as well as secular Jews Christians etc.Their support for Muslims is designed to accelerate that process.
You should read the subtext of their core tenets MPACUK before inviting these reprobates from sharing a platform or for that matter any other event . Muslims are dupes of these people who will dispense with you once they have achieved their Messianic goal. Big Big mistake .One born every minute Im thinking .
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2009-04-27 18:11:25
Mazhar:
MECO has taken the commendable decision of doing this event. I also spare a thought for Rabbi Cohen who has suffered enourmous abuse because of his views.
I would like to mention, however, that where we should not support MECO and its chairman Taj Hargey is in their policy of adopting a number of religious injunctions that have no basis in Islam. It is definitely a moot point as to how well this organisation does promote “theological rationalism”.
(8)
2009-04-27 19:03:06
philosopher:
I would argue that it is a moot point whether "theological rationalism" is possible - or even desirable.
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2009-04-27 20:27:17
Mohammad Anwar Hanif:
Typical of Mazhar to come up with a red-herring about MECO and Dr Hargey. Anyone who has had direct experience of the organisation like I have had, would know that Dr Hargey does not follow the mullahs and their bigoted interpretations of Islam blindly. He argues from the divine Qur'an while the Mullahs and their uncritical supporters seem to follow the human compilations and man-made shar'iah blindly. MECO is politically active and theologically sane, the total opposite of mullahs and their unthinking following. It is time we need to re-evaluate the situation in the Muslim community as the mullahs have brought nothing but stagnation. MECO is a breadth of fresh air. Get over it Mazhar.
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2009-04-27 21:07:53
Toronto:
The MCB and Enayat Bungawala must be cursing MPAC for supporting MECO. I wonder if Engage will put up a supporting article?
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2009-04-27 21:15:20
MECO Best Avoided:
Three points. First, Hargey is as dogmatic in his opposition to an essentialised conservativism as he is to just about everything else he disagrees with. The dichotomy between pro and anti-hadith is becoming increasingly untenable in the light of more nuanced research by academics like Motzki and Juynboll. So from a reform point of view, Hargey is extreme and out of touch with current research. I was surprised when Wadud did a gig for him - I've yet to come across any other name who takes him seriously.
Point two. Hargey's recent diatribe in The Times verged on the hysterical in its hyperbole and paranoia about 'witchhunts'. The truth is, he sued a puny third rate weekly pamphlet run by fellow Muslims - yeah, this guy is a real team player, not someone likely to overreact or put the boot in for show. Think you can trust someone like this, MPACUK? Point three. His kind of in-yer-face politics might appeal to MPACUK, I guess, but I would question MECO's motives here, and its account of events leading up to this gig - Hargey might believe gaining MPACUK as an ally would give him credibility in the UK. It won't -- it will simply destroy MPACUK's.
(12)
2009-04-27 22:33:25
MECO TO BE COMMENDED NOT CONDEMN:
Unlike the previous post who wishes to bluff ordinary readers with his pseudo-academic mumbo jumbo, let me respond to his three points attacking MECO and Dr Hargey.
First, this person cannot even bring himself to give the chairman of MECO his earned title. Dr Hargey has a doctorate from Oxford University and is a leading scholar in Islamic Studies. To quote obscure non-Muslim academics like Motzki and Juynbol to verify the popular contention that all the hadith are authentic is totally idiotic. Anyone with an ounce of independent thinking and research knows that thousands of hadith were fabricated and forged right from the time of the Prophet's companions. Muslims should stop worshiping the hadith as sacred. No they are all HUMAN recordings of what the Prophet supposedly said. They are not divine and frequently they clash with the Holy Qur'an. Second, it is clear that this individual lives in La-La land when he does not know that Muslims like to excommunicate each other, call each other kafir and murtad when they have no intellectual way to respond to criticism. This so-called puny third rate newspaper that libeled Dr Hargey was put up to it without any proof by those linked to the MCB but those cowards at the head of that discredited group are too afraid to say so in public otherwise they too will be sued for defamation. Why is it that Muslims like to condemn others for disagreeing with them? These are witch hunts and as Dr Hargey says they are reflective of Muslim McCarthyism. Third, this supposed thinker questions MECO;s motives for taking on Zionism and other political activity when the local mosques in Oxford are even afraid of their own shadows. If this critic has the guts to attend any of MECO's many functions, including Friday prayers, weekly Qur'an seminars, monthly forums etc, he would know that MECO puts into action the famous Qur'anic verse: LET THEIR ARISE FROM YOU A BAND OF PEOPLE PROMOTING GOOD AND PREVENTING EVIL (3:104). That, my friend is the Qur'anic rationale of MECO, Not the rubbish the MCB and its Wahhabi-Deobandi mullahs shove down the throats of the compliant masses in mosques up and down the country.
(13)
2009-04-28 09:55:03
kaysan:
Hargey does not have a doctorate from oxford university they wont touch the chap with a barge pole, he is an intellectual dimwit. He received his doctorate in South Africa and claims to be linked with university. HE IS NOT.
Secondly Hargey is a hadith denier which I am afraid at the very least takes him out of the orthodoxy which the vast majority of believers hold dear to. He seems to be just a continium of the modernist school characterised by an inferiority complex and a malleability to western aims.
(14)
2009-04-28 11:54:50
Salahudin:
'Dr Hargey has a doctorate from Oxford University and is a leading scholar in Islamic Studies.'
Don't make me laugh...is his scholarship so advanced that he is post-hadith and more knowledgeable than God Almighty, his Messenger, the Messengers Companions and the thosands of mainstream scholars and Ulema that this Ummah has been blessed with in the last 1400 years. No I don't think so, this Sunnah rejector is an astronomical charlaton and deciever. astronomical degree. and shame on MPAC the knowledgeless mavericks for promoting him and his cause.
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2009-04-28 13:24:46
Kaysan, not the dimwit:
It seems that Kaysan has no information or first hand knowledge about DR HARGEY. He has a doctorate from Oxford University (which can be ascertained from the Bodlein Library where his doctoral dissertation is kept) unlike the mullah-minded imbeciles who criticises him. Dr Hargey is not a Hadith-denier but someone who openly says that the hundreds of hadith that contradicts the Holy Qur'an are clearly manufactured and not authentic. What is the harm in arguing that these man-collected compilations of prophetic sayings are not ALL true and that some of them are pure fiction? How does that compromise his belief in the one true God and in the authentic message of Muhammad (saw)? O you people who have been forced fed the unfactual rubbish about Dr Hargey (which comes from the MCB and other disreputable sources), simply examine your own minds, and think for yourselves instead of letting the mullahs do so. It is this theological self-empowerment that is at the heart of MECO's mission. Peace LOL
(16)
2009-04-28 13:50:35
Commando:
you would not know freedom of speech if it punched you in the face and said,hello,my names freedom of speech!commando prick,stay of off ANY subject that involves having to use facts and brains,you are lacking in both! — TemplarWow, what I said must really have hit a nerve. Perhaps that could be because the nation finding process lasted for nearly 100 years in the 1800s before they concluded at The Levante. And theres no need to swear, just because your dad didnt bring you up with any manners doesnt mean it is alright to swear in a forum which promotes and advocates human rights, and democracy, and misabuses of the system by both ISLAMIC and JEWISH politics/politicians. Let me ask you then, is it on one hand alright to fight for Isreal whicg under law you may, but not alright to fight for Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Kashmir etc. which under law its illegal. Open your eyes child.
(17)
2009-04-28 14:09:04
Ihtisham:
Dr Hargey is not a Hadith-denier but someone who openly says that the hundreds of hadith that contradicts the Holy Qur'an are clearly manufactured and not authentic. What is the harm in arguing that these man-collected compilations of prophetic sayings are not ALL true and that some of them are pure fiction? — Kaysan, not the dimwitYou nasty little scum bag...we are meant to deny the lucid and authenticated hadith found in Bukhari & Muslim just because Dr Heretic says he doesn't like them because they impede his style and western outlook on life...give me abreak I don't need the MCB to tell me thats aload of farm yard quality b***sh**!
(18)
2009-04-28 15:17:13
Ihtisham the mindless idiot:
So, Ihthisham thinks that everything in Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud and all the other compilers of Hadith (who collected their reports over 200 years after the Prophet's death) must be accepted as true and authentic, particularly when there are innumerable hadith that not only defy but also distort the Qur'an's teachings? What craziness.
No wonder people of other faiths ridicule us. Why should there be uncritical acceptance of such obviously nonsensical hadith that violate the divine scripture? For those who don't know there are literally thousands of hadith that were invented and given the veneer of prophetic legitimacy. Remember, my brothers in faith, the hadith are not holy, they are of men, by men and (largely) for men. As a devout Muslimah, I am appalled by the anti-female bigotry that is found in the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim (but not in the Qur'an) and am convinced that our beloved Prophet would never have uttered such nonsensical things about half the human race. Only sexist male narrators and the equally prejudiced male compilers of hadith would have dared to say such awful things about women to justify their patriarchal misogyny and traditional control over women. Get a grip, you hadith worshippers, You cannot believe ALL of them to be the exact words of the Nabi when so many clearly violate the Qur'an's concept of justice and equity. Thankfully there are fearless scholars and independent thinkers like Dr Hargey who is prepared to say in public that the hadith is not beyond question and that all hadith must conform to the Qur'an before they can be regarded as authentic. Why is that so difficult to comprehend, unless the young men of today believe all the rubbish that comes out of the barely literate Mullahs, who are so keen to justify their sexist biases purely on the basis of suspect hadith. People like Ihtisham should say whether they are Muslims or Muhammadans. The former regard the divine Qur'an as their supreme text while the latter says the man-made hadith is more important. I am proud to be a Qur'anic Muslimah and not some robotic individual who follow each and every hadith without question. It is time to wake up and smell the coffee and realise that not all the hadith is authentic. And when someone says this, this does not mean you reject hadith, only that you test the authenticity of each hadith against the divine yardstick contained in the Qur'an.
(19)
2009-04-28 23:14:03
sab:
I find it remarkable that the Qur'an itself makes reference to 'false hadith' & declares that it is the 'best hadith' and says 'after this what will you accept?.'I would rather be wise and not challenge Allah(S.W.T.).What else was the Prophet Muhammad's(P.B.U.H) sunnah other than the Qur'an? Was not his example and purpose to demonstate to mankind that Quranic(i.e.Allah's)guidance can be put into practice ,is self-empowering and results in eventual outstanding success?I doubt very much that on the Day of Judgement I would be cross-examined on whether I was obedient to Bukhari/Tirmidhi/Hurairah etc.Islam is often ridiculed on the basis of alleged Hadith's such as the '70 virgins in paradise reward'.I am not surprised.I would never take the responsibility of believing such a claim could be attributed to the most sensible and modest of personalities the world has been witness to.The Qur'an has proved itself to be the 'rock' of Islam despite political differences.The hadith remains it 'Achilles heel'until Muslims take it upon themselves to remove what is contradictory,often derogatory & cannot be conclusively verified.
(20)
2009-04-29 09:34:07
missed the point:
The issue is that the Zionist scum bags who are willing to shout about the right to freedom of speach are all to happy to shut it down when it comes to criticizing Israel.
I am shocked and cannot understand why Muslims are happy to be tarred with that brush by Zionists but unhappy or unable to challenge the hypocritical Zionist.
(21)
2009-04-29 09:59:59
Q:
This is a quote from the revered rabbi.
“There is no question that there was a Holocaust and gas chambers. There are too many eyewitnesses. However, our approach is that when one suffers, the one who perpetrates the suffering is obviously guilty but he will never succeed if the victim did not deserve it in one way or another. We have to look within to improve and try to better ourselves and remove those characteristics or actions that may have been the cause of the success of the Holocaust.” taken from a Times interview with him. He clearly holds the view that the Jews were deserving of the Holocaust, suggesting that God would have prevented it otherwise. Given that this intelligent man is awarded credibility here, it must be by extension that he believes that the Palestinians are also deserving of the Nakhba and all that has subsequently happened to them. The exception can only exist if he believes that the Jews, as the still Chosen People, are subject to different treatment and obligation by God. I am not qualified to determine if this accords with Judaic thought but it is an extermely troubling stance whichever applies.
(22)
2009-04-29 14:07:31
Aziz:
...for the anti-ahadith brigade:
where do u get the number of Raka'ah and how to perform Salaah, from? The details of how to carry out Hajj? The duas and manner to carry out the Sawm? When a Muslim says: "Salallahu 'Alayhi Was Salaam" after the Prophet's (SAAW) mention, where is this derived from. Get the picture?
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2009-04-29 17:01:04
Imran Karim:
Its totally wrong to claim the hadith books of Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud and the others aim to present their content as facts. Only uneducated lay people would take such a view.
They are merely collections of reported stories. The hadith within each collection states its source and chain of narration. Only a qualified scholar can then decipher the authenticity of the hadith based on the source, narrators and using other evidential techniques such as corroboration. The science of studying the hadith is a subject which takes years, if not decades, of supervised specialist study. The original sources, the chain of narrators, their character, trustworthiness and their reliability are analysed in depth and the stringent tests that are applied to grade the authenticity of each and every hadith is of the highest standard of proof - the levels of evidence required to grade a hadith as authentic is so high, it would put most Western courts to shame. Some hadith are graded as weak. The Quran and the hadith of the Prophet PBUH are the primary sources of Islam and go hand in hand. The hadith of the Prophet, his noble Companions and their pious descendents put the teachings of the Quran in practice, and without that we would not know the context and purpose of many Quranic verses.
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2009-04-29 19:31:19
Sultan(in OXFORD):
[quote=Thankfully there are fearless scholars and independent thinkers like Dr Hargey who is prepared to say in public that the hadith is not beyond question and that all hadith must conform to the Qur'an before they can be regarded as authentic. [/quote]
Assalaam alaikum and Greetings Sorry to bust your feelings Sister, but in the eyes of the majority of the Islamic Scholars of the world, and the Muslim masses, the views of Dr Taj and all those so-called Muslims who claim that QURAN is the ONLY guidance to follow, and that authentic Hadiths are suspect, are considered not to be "true" Muslims. Because, you accept the words of the Prophet (PBUH)when he rehearsed the QURAN, despite the QURAN being compiled in the form of a book AFTER the passing away of the Prophet, and yet you reject the words of the SAME Prophet when they form authentic HADITHS. In both cases, MEN collected the verses and sayings AFTER the Prophet. This physical BOOK that you hold in your hand (the QURAN) was compiled AFTER the Prophet. The verses are NOT in the order that they were first revealed. So, why would you accept the QURAN but not the Authentic HADITHs, when the manner of collection was the same ? By MEN. Dr Taj and his ilk, are a small minority of muslims who RELY on controversal subjects to bring his MECO organisation to the front of the newspapers. There is nothing progressive about him for allowing a Woman to lead a mixed congregational-prayer, soley because it is not forbidden in the QURAN. Lesbianism is also not explicitly forbidden in the QURAN (talks only about males practicising lusts with other males), so would his progressive attitude allow him to accept lesbianism. The so-called anti-female bigotry found in HADITHS are designed to help women understand what it is that can lead them to the wrong path. Just as HADITHS tell men to correct their paths. There is nothing about Male Dominance anywhere. And only a muslimah with a narrow minded view (or one who aspires to 'womens lib' and has a grudge against men) would consider these hadiths as anti-women. Ask any Muslimah who accepts the QURAN and sunnah. She does not feel threatened in anyway by these verses and actually understands why certain things are said about them. You really need to wakeup if you truly think hundred and hundreds of generations of Scholars before us have got it wrong in terms of authentic HADITHs, and then all of a sudden (past 50 years) the QURANITES feel they truly understand the religion better than our predecessors. As it is, you accept only those things which you feel need accepting. Rejecting others, because you feel uncomfortable with them. Wasalaams
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2009-04-29 22:58:13
DEVOUT MUSLIMAH:
It is men like Sultan who cannot see the woods for the trees. He makes the ridiculous claim of comparing the compilation of the Qur'an with the hadith. Any elementary student of history knows that the Qur'an as we have it today as set down as a text at the death of the Prophet in 632 CE and a codified copy was then circulated throughout Muslim lands a mere dozen years later. The hadith of Bukhari, Muslim etc which Sultan obviously worhsips was not written down until around 250 years after the Prophet' death, To equate the divine text with human compilations is nonsensical. Moreover, the hadith are FULL of contradictions and forgery. Sultan and other blind believers in hadith cannot adequately explain away. Only an imbecile whose brains have been fried by mullahs and like minded writers, will assert that the hadith is not anti-women. All you have to do is to look at the hundreds of hadith that discriminates against women in terms marraige, divorce, custody of children, women's intellect, women's propensity to go to hell, etc to realise that they anti-women views come not from the Holy Qur'an but from man-made hadith with an inherent agenda against women. As far as Dr Taj is concerned, more power to thinking Muslims like him. This bold man is villified by the likes of Sultan who cannot use his limited mental capacity to understand that there are hundreds if not thousands of hadith that conflicts with the Qur'an. Since when are tales, stories and legends that are transmitted orally over ten generations the absolute and exact words of the prophet, when some hadith are several pages long. If Sultan;s hadith lovers want to believe in such fairy tales, he is free to prove himself an idiot. For myself, I examine each hadith and see if they agree or disagree with the Qur'an. Then I subject them to another test: does this hadith violate commonsense (because our beloved prophet would not say stupid nonsense). Only when the hadith passes these two tests, am I prepared to consider it. So, Sultan, if you would like to remain a zombie and believe in each and every hadith, even where they conflict with the Qur'an, go ahead and show us all what a fool you are. Like many other thinking Muslim women today, I am sick and tired of these young Muslim men who pretend to be for equal rights but in reality are even more sexist and discriminatory towards women than their grandfathers. More power to bold intellectual like Dr Taj I say.
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2009-04-30 07:30:34
Imran Karim:
Totally agreed with Sultan (Oxford).
To re-inforce the point, the Noble Quran at 4:34 is commonly translated as: "As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds (and last) beat them. But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)" Has anyone ever come across a hadith - authentic, weak, disputed or otherwise - of the Prophet PBUH ever beating a woman? Of course not. And it demonstrates again that the Quran and Hadith go hand in hand - the latter explaining the context, purpose and practical application of the former. The likes of Taj Hargey seek to appease Islamophobes rather than maintain and promote the beauty of Islam.
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2009-04-30 09:11:14
Muhammed:
Indeed it is a sad day for our community when the Sahih hadith. Sunnah, tradition and example of our beloved is doubted and discredited as fabrication. You will have a lot to answer for MPAC, you instigated this worthless and irreligious debate!
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2009-04-30 10:29:19
Sultan(in OXFORD):
Devout Muslimah.
Assalaam alaikum You make many allegations and unfortunately, you are digging yourself into a bigger hole. First, Muslims like me do not 'worship' HADITHS. We see authentic HADITHS for what they are : Sayings of the Prophet (PBUH). I have the intellect to understand my religion. I am not illiterate, as you claim. We do not deem HADITH to be fabricated or manmade just because we may not like what we hear. BUT Some are classed as AUTHENTIC, WEAK and FALSE to help us understand how much we should trust them. Your claim that hadiths were written down 250 years after the passing away of the Prophet is FALSE. You should really stop relying upon QURAN-only and SUBMITTER websites, and such Muslims. HADITHS were already in circulation at the time of the Prophet. When the Prophet spoke or performed an action, people wrote it down. Just like they wrote down verses of the QURAN. HADITHS were also practiced, just like the QURAN. So, there is no danger of authentic hadiths being 'lost' through generations or subject to 'chinese-whispers' (unlike the claims of the anti-hadith brigade). What the likes of Imam Bukhari, etc, did was to remove the FALSE and weak hadiths circulating after the passing of the Prophet. Some hadiths were FALSELY attributed to the Prophet for political and power reasons. But the likes of Imam Bukhari sifted through them all and determined what was authentic or not. He was rigourous in his criteria. The authentic HADIThs were not created by him, and thus man-made. They already existed long before this Imam was born, and were traced back to the Prophet. All he did in his compilation was to add the authentic ones. Discarding the false ones. INTERESTINGLY, isn't what you are doing the same thing that Imam Bukhari did (but you reject). You state that "For myself, I examine each hadith and see if they agree or disagree with the Qur'an. Then I subject them to another test: does this hadith violate commonsense (because our beloved prophet would not say stupid nonsense). Only when the hadith passes these two tests, am I prepared to consider it." Tell me. Do you have more Islamic Knowledge 1400 years after the Prophet than Imam Bukhari?, who existed some 200 years after. And was thus closer to the truth than you will ever be. Are you comparing yourself to Imam Bukhari, who spent most of his time in devotion to his religion and the Prophet. More than you and I will ever do. Do you think Imam Bukhari sifted truthood and falsehood based on his whims, like you are doing. You prefer your test to validate the HADITHS, but you reject the more rigourous test by Imam Bukhari to validate the same HADITHS. The hadiths which you dislike have passed the test of time, until the quran-only group arose last 50 years. So, are you suggesting generations and generations of Muslims have been duped into falsehood. Even the 1st generation who were more closer to the truth than you and I. Are you somehow suggesting that 1440 years later, Muslims now understand that HADITHS are fabricated. Could it be that it is you who are misguided in your beliefs, some 1400 years after Islam was given. The passage of time corrupts people. The behaviour of illiterate Mullahs, Imams and the discrimination of Muslim women by men have nothing to do with the anti-women HADITHS you keep refering to. They are everything to do with the conduct of the men themselves, who see women as lower class. Something which the QURAN AND THE HADITHS forbid. Please don't blame hadiths for this. There is an explanation for everything. Nothing is black and white. If you think Dr Taj promotes progressive Islam, then you are unwittingly helping him to create his version of Islam. An Islam not recognised by the majority of Muslims, and Inshallah, never will. An Islam based upon his views. Like I said, if there is nothing in the QURAN to forbid an action (the means by which Dr Taj justifies his Islamic Criteria) then Dr Taj might as well allow Lesbians to speak at his Organisation, as they are not forbidden in the QURAN either. Wasalaams
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2009-04-30 12:51:55
G MAN:
MUSLIMAH ( or should I call you Faiza Ahmed?, thats MECO staff by the way)
You seem to have a very narrow binary view in this whole debate it very much shows your intellectual shallowness and inferiority complex ( characteristics shared by your " brave " but slightly paranoid " academic" leader. The hadith collection are a vast and immensely complex corpus remember there are upto three hundred collections, this attitude that they all must be wholesale be falsified is silly and extrremely facile. The methodolgy invloved in hadoth criticism employed the early muhaddiths was a paradigm shift in intellectual traditions, the meticulous nature with which they were sourced and verified is absolutely astounding and for you to denigrate a colossal before unmatched intellectual feat in such derisory terms betrays your ignorance. Now I take a centre ground here I accept that the likes of Imam Bukhari etc were human and fallible and mistakes may have crept into the collections, but an objective look at the methods and results proves on the whole they are reliable. I accept there are instances where hadths contradict the Quran and perhaps those need to be analysed and believ in the 1400 years of Islamic traditional scholarship they have been re examined. For example the age of HJazrat Aishah has been falsified by seerah and hadith scholars and shown to be not nine years old, but this fact is still accepted by the majority, the reason it is accepted is psychological rather than based in reason, a siege mentality which draws people inward. Now I think most people can accpet that the hadith collections are not on par with revelation and hadith criticism is not a dead science in Islamic tradition. That said I would have more respect for Dr Hargey and yourself if you took a academic and truthful approcah to this and tried to maintain the integrity if our community instead of actiing like a subversive attention seeker. By sharing platforms with people who have nothing but contempt for our heritage, and going along and cheerleading in attempts to neteur our faith along with its avowed opponents. Until he stops allying himself with pepole who have been shown to have nefarious intentions then he will constantly be laballed as a stooge and a instrument of imperial domination, and he can carry on whinging about a faux McCarthyism against him.
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2009-04-30 13:20:45
Rifatullah Orakzai:
I wish i could be in Oxford to see my MECO's courageous efforts. Dr. Taj must be appreciated for his great efforts.
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2009-04-30 18:22:38
karim:
Thankyou MPACUK for showcasing that Islam certainly is robust enough to withstand debate.The hadith is perhaps on the level of 'anecdotal evidence'.This is the weakest form of evidence in scientific trials.None of the authors of the the collective body of hadith ever spoke to Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) directly or even to the Companions who had known him closely.Their sources were people from across the entire Mid-East who were alive 200-250 years after Prophet Muhammad's(P.B.U.H) death.I don't even know of any written accounts of Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) sayings by his closest Companions.A popular or widely-held statement attributed to someone is not absolute proof that it is 'sahih'.At best,it remains a likelihood.Why would I want to incur the charge or being incompetent in faith before Allah(S.W.T) ,in believing,for example that a pilgrimmage to Mecca would absolve me of all my sins(according to the Hadith) when Allah(S.W.T.)makes no such declaration by His own Word in the Qur'an?
It is a prime objective of Islam for us not to remain slaves to superstitous 'tradition',to be not like the 'jahil' chieftains of Mecca who mocked Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) for asking them to question and turn away from the self-serving practices of their forefathers.Islam is about permanent and not traditional(habits of man) principles.
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2009-04-30 20:31:34
Imran Karim:
The hadith is perhaps on the level of 'anecdotal evidence'. This is the weakest form of evidence in scientific trials.None of the authors of the the collective body of hadith ever spoke to Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) directly or even to the Companions who had known him closely.Their sources were people from across the entire Mid-East who were alive 200-250 years after Prophet Muhammad's(P.B.U.H) death. — karimFirstly, no person who has ever lived on earth - ruler, scientist, sportsman, philosopher, king or commander - has his personal qualities mimicked 1400 years after his death by billions of people as they do towards the Prophet Mohammad. Such was the devotion and intense following of the Prophet PBUH that his every act or word was captured and passed on - how he (PBUH) walked, how he spoke, how he dressed, how he ate and drank, how he slept, how he treated his wives and every other act he performed, in public and private. Secondly, the studying of hadith is a science that takes years if not decades of study and uses the most advanced techniques and highest standards of proof for evidential analysis, identifying sources, chains of narrators and corroborators. The standards of evidence required and the stringent criteria applied by scholars to grade a hadith as authentic exceed any criminal court of the 21st century. Is Hergey, the guy who pickets on behalf of the BNP and invites Christian clergy to give Friday khutbas to his few dozen followers, to be regarded as superior to generations of billions of Muslims?
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2009-05-01 20:57:10
Oxford Muslims:
Assalamualaikum my brothers and sisters,
It is terribly sad to see the Sahih Hadith treated in this casual manner and disregarded out of hand. There is no doubt that the Quran obliges us as muslims to love and follow the Prophet (saw), and the only way to do this is through the Hadith. As many contributors have stated, the position that "we have finally got it right now" and the assumption that over one thousand years of scholarly tradition, devotion and piety should be disregarded is untenable. I would also add that bantering insults and names to eachother, even in the context of such an immotive debate, is firmly against what is taught in the Quran: "And do not find fault with one another or insult each other with derogatory nicknames" (49:11). After all, we are brothers and sisters in faith and turn our faces the same way to pray to Allah Almighty. May Allah (swt) guide us all.
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2009-05-02 00:59:31
Bilal Patel:
The level of opposition shows that the pro-Israel people really are very worried about the level of attacks on Israel and that they will now escalate.
This is a very good thing indeed. I don't like Taj Hargey but if even Hargey is against zionism then it really shows that they have absolutely no standing. The state of Israel is finished down the line anyway; it's only a matter of time and demographics.
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2009-05-02 12:23:34
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