| Will the burqa be banned in France? Where are the Muslims? |
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| Saturday, 20 June 2009 | |
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MPACUK comment: It wouldn't be surprising if the veil is banned in France. After all they very successfully banned the headscarf. Hardly any Muslims stood up in defence of the headscarf then and no Muslim seems to have stood up in defence of the veil now. Why is this happening? The problem is that Muslims refuse to get involved in politics hence laws against Muslims are easily passed through. The veil is being vilified again and the perpetrators will get away with it again because Muslims are still not going to learn and be bothered to stand up and fight for their rights. This makes those who seek to snatch away our rights bolder. You do not see the same laws forbidding Jewish or Christian practices so why Muslims? It is because its easy to kick a sleeping dog. And if you think it will never happen in the UK, you are dead wrong. Secularism is the religion of contemporary France. And the enforcers of that faith have a new target. "Today ... we are confronted by certain Muslim women wearing the burqa, which covers and fully envelops the body and the head like a moving prison," said Andre Gerin, a Communist Party legislator who joined 57 others on Wednesday in signing a motion for a parliamentary committee to study possible legislation to ban the wearing of the traditional costume in public. Despite the fervor of Gerin and his allies, however, the burqa remains sufficiently rare in France that even the legislators railing against it are unable to say how many Muslim women in the country actually wear one. All Gerin would say was, "There are more and more of them, not only in big cities, but in rural settings as well ... We have to break the silence of this country's political leaders on the matter." Silence is hardly the word to characterize the matter of France and professions of religious piety. Last year the country's highest administrative court denied the naturalization request of an otherwise irreproachable Moroccan woman on the grounds that her wearing a burqa was incompatible with French secularist statutes. On Tuesday, French Scientologists raised complaints of religious intolerance when state prosecutors wrapped up their arguments against the church on charges of organized swindling by requesting that the organization be disbanded and barred in France. (Read an argument against the veil by Azadeh Moaveni.) The champions of French secularism note that the Scientology trial is based on fraud accusations, not religious practice. Meanwhile, the burqa offensive is aimed at protecting the rights of women forced to efface themselves by covering their bodies entirely. "The rights of women isn't an issue of a few centimeters of cloth, but the burqa is the symbol of the oppression women suffer, so this debate should be encouraged," says Siham Habchi, president of the Neither Whores Nor Submissive women's movement, referring to the parliamentary initiative. (Check out a story about Europe's "veil wars.") But what about the rights of Muslim women who honestly feel faith-bound to voluntarily don a burka? Or those prohibited by law from attending public school with the headscarves they wear everywhere else? Why is no one ranting about nuns' habits being "degrading" (as Gerin called the burqa), just as no one lashed out at creeping extremism when then–First Lady Bernadette Chirac covered her head during Vatican visits? Probably because Catholicism has deep roots in French history and culture and is not viewed as a foreign faith the way Islam is, which, with about 6 million practitioners, is the second largest religion in France. Its practitioners are also growing at a faster rate than Catholics. Indeed, the expanding size of Islam and fears about spreading extremism seem to have emboldened pundits and policy-makers to wade in and legislate aspects of Muslim observance and life in ways that they would be wary of doing with Catholics, Protestants or Jews. At this point, no Muslim defenders of the rare French burqa have emerged. Indeed, Dounia Bouzar, a specialist on Muslim affairs, notes that while she and many fellow Muslims opposed the headscarf ban as meddling in private matters of choice, she is relieved at action taken on the burqa. "Imposition of this garment on women is one manner Salafists get individuals to renounce their individuality and submit to the extremist cult thinking that masquerades as Islam — but which is an abomination of it," Bouzar says. "That Salafist influence and activity is spreading, and if it takes political action to prevent their cult from leading Muslims astray of Islam, so be it." France isn't the first nation to consider a burqa ban. In 2006, Dutch officials caused a storm of protest from its Muslim populace by proposing a burqa interdiction. A law imposing a ban may soon be passed. France is not that far yet. The parliamentary motion to form an investigating committee must be approved before that body can be formed. If it is, it must study the burqa and reasons why those women who wear it do so, and consider recommendations whether to ban it. Drafting and voting legislation to that end would take months. Before then, public debate would rage on whether the move is merited — or another example of intolerance toward Islam. "Tolerance of the burqa requires a colonial view of Islam as so backwards that forcing a woman to erase herself that way seems natural," Bouzar argues. "The burqa debate isn't secularity vs. Islam, but manipulation and oppression vs. dignity." Source: Time Readers have left 33 comments.
Get your facts right, MPAC:
The sheer ignorance of your commentary is breath-taking. The French did *not* 'ban the veil'. In fact, the French state enforced an existing ban on the overt display of religious symbols in state institutions (and that includes state schools).
"You do not see the same laws forbidding Jewish or Christian practices." Untrue - both Jewish and Christian religious symbols in state institutions also fall under this ban - and the French state has moved against those who would breach this ban from any and all religious communities in France. You are morons, MPAC.
(1)
2009-06-21 14:42:53
Get your eyesight right:
The sheer ignorance of your commentary is breath-taking. The French did *not* 'ban the veil'. In fact, the French state enforced an existing ban on the overt display of religious symbols in state institutions (and that includes state schools). — Get your facts right, MPAC"You do not see the same laws forbidding Jewish or Christian practices." Untrue - both Jewish and Christian religious symbols in state institutions also fall under this ban - and the French state has moved against those who would breach this ban from any and all religious communities in France. You are morons, MPAC. what an idiot...no where does it state in the article that the veil has been banned.... And Hijaab and veil are not religious symbols, they are a form of dress....try telling Jewish and Christian women what they can or cannot wear you ignoramus.
(2)
2009-06-21 17:41:49
mark uk:
The sheer ignorance of your commentary is breath-taking. The French did *not* 'ban the veil'. In fact, the French state enforced an existing ban on the overt display of religious symbols in state institutions (and that includes state schools). — Get your eyesight right"You do not see the same laws forbidding Jewish or Christian practices." Untrue - both Jewish and Christian religious symbols in state institutions also fall under this ban - and the French state has moved against those who would breach this ban from any and all religious communities in France. You are morons, MPAC. what an idiot...no where does it state in the article that the veil has been banned.... And Hijaab and veil are not religious symbols, they are a form of dress....try telling Jewish and Christian women what they can or cannot wear you ignoramus. Thats funny ive never seen anyone else but muslims wearing a hajib or burka. Its is strange that when a muslim is told they cant wear this in a job they cry islamophobia. But when its mentioned that all religous symbols are banned. they know this argument wont work so they say its not relious its just someones culture.
(3)
2009-06-21 18:13:59
Mujaahid:
Muslims in France should defy this ban, and all Muslim women should wear the burka as a mark of solidarity. Let the authorities then attempt to force removal and deal with the subsequent mess. It's time Muslims stood up for themselves because no one else is going to do it for them.
(4)
2009-06-21 18:28:00
TruthWillOut:
Good for the French is they pass this law. Such a shame we have no similar law planned here for the UK.
Why do I say this? Because whilst I know you muppets say that it's a free choice for women, but we all know it isn't. We all know that there is a lot of thuggery and bullying taking place where men and older women force younger women into wearing the ghastly outfit that make a row of them look like pints of guiness all lined up. The sooner we copy the French in first banning religious symbols from our public buildings like schools etc, then banning this hideous and sexist outfit from public totally, the better.
(5)
2009-06-21 18:36:31
Libetarian:
'And Hijaab and veil are not religious symbols, they are a form of dress....'
So therefore you should have no problem in it being banned in public/work places as it is not a religious symbol. Just as it is innapropriatefor someone to go in to a mosque in a bikini it is also innapropraite to wear this symbol of female oppression in a liberal culture. Morroco, also presominantly, has also banned it. Why? Because they think it is backward and has nothing to do with their culture nor their religious practice. So please save the unthinking sheep arguements that you peddle here. What you do in your own homes is your own affair. In public in the UK we don't wan't to see evidence of your patriarchal oppression thank you very much, certainly not in the workplace. As you freely admit it is a cultural NOT a religious thing so you should have no problem with this.
(6)
2009-06-21 19:40:16
Playing with words::
Why did you say "and no Muslim seems to have stood up in defence of the veil now."?
The Hijaab and veil are forms of dress adopted by Muslim women and quite rightly are seen as symbols of their religious beliefs.
(7)
2009-06-21 19:56:16
Optimus Prime:
TruthWillOut - whereas its completely acceptable to swamp young girls with images of what's considered beautiful and treat them as sexual objects - wow what a freedom of choice.
(8)
2009-06-22 10:43:40
Shan:
So much for freedom of expression and freedom to practise your faith.
Since women in europe by large have been turned into symbols of sexual exploitation, it is hard for you to comprehend modesty-pride-shame and dignity.
(9)
2009-06-22 15:30:39
Darth Lady:
Muslims in France should defy this ban, and all Muslim women should wear the burka as a mark of solidarity. Let the authorities then attempt to force removal and deal with the subsequent mess. It's time Muslims stood up for themselves because no one else is going to do it for them. — MujaahidThat's right ladies. Wear it as a mark of solidarity, like Mr MPAC West Britain tells you. Nothing to do with your own personal choice of course. You are just women after all.
(10)
2009-06-22 15:57:49
morons?:
The sheer ignorance of your commentary is breath-taking. The French did *not* 'ban the veil'. In fact, the French state enforced an existing ban on the overt display of religious symbols in state institutions (and that includes state schools). — Get your facts right, MPAC"You do not see the same laws forbidding Jewish or Christian practices." Untrue - both Jewish and Christian religious symbols in state institutions also fall under this ban - and the French state has moved against those who would breach this ban from any and all religious communities in France. You are morons, MPAC. You sure you got your facts right? LOL. You just made a right moron of yourself. Where in the commentary it said French banned veil? Read the article again. Jeesh...morons.
(11)
2009-06-23 04:29:06
Cough Medicine:
Get your eyesight right - there is nothing more well designed to make one look like a complete idiot than launching into someone with a stream of ill-spelled and ill-constructed sentences full of abuse, when one has not bothered to actually read what your perceived opponent has written in the first place.
If your level of poor comprehension, grasp of English and plain aggressive, pig-ignorant rudeness is characteristic of the Muslim community in the UK, no wonder you are all so roundly detested in that country. All the best.
(12)
2009-06-23 05:34:38
chauvinist:
It should be law that fat women cover up as i shouldnt have to see them
(13)
2009-06-23 10:45:27
Get your eyesight right:
'And Hijaab and veil are not religious symbols, they are a form of dress....' — LibetarianSo therefore you should have no problem in it being banned in public/work places as it is not a religious symbol. Just as it is innapropriatefor someone to go in to a mosque in a bikini it is also innapropraite to wear this symbol of female oppression in a liberal culture. Morroco, also presominantly, has also banned it. Why? Because they think it is backward and has nothing to do with their culture nor their religious practice. So please save the unthinking sheep arguements that you peddle here. What you do in your own homes is your own affair. In public in the UK we don't wan't to see evidence of your patriarchal oppression thank you very much, certainly not in the workplace. As you freely admit it is a cultural NOT a religious thing so you should have no problem with this. Yes I will have a problem in it banned....do not presume to tell me what to do. I do not care what you want...I live in this country and will dress how I like thank you very much and you and other bigoted fools are not going to stop me. If you dont like it then thats your problem. Do not try to pass the 'liberal' culture argument off on me...you know nothing about liberty and you presume to tell people how to dress. Forget Muslim women, you exploit non-Muslim women by telling them how to dress...you arent satisfied till they are wearing as little as possible...when women prance around naked with lustful eyes on them, you label them liberal. Stop pretending Britain is a liberal society when it comes to women. Its about as liberal as any other society. People like yourself are the oppressors who force women to adhere to dress that pleases you by making a mockery of ones you do not like. Countries like France and others that follow suit are the oppressors. Dont presume to tell me what you want or do not want. I do not take orders from you, you patriarchal twit neither it is my job to make a saddo like you happy.
(14)
2009-06-23 11:58:43
Get your eyesight right:
Get your eyesight right - there is nothing more well designed to make one look like a complete idiot than launching into someone with a stream of ill-spelled and ill-constructed sentences full of abuse, when one has not bothered to actually read what your perceived opponent has written in the first place. — Cough MedicineIf your level of poor comprehension, grasp of English and plain aggressive, pig-ignorant rudeness is characteristic of the Muslim community in the UK, no wonder you are all so roundly detested in that country. All the best. ah here is a pompous windbag who is going to presume to teach me manners and perfect English in what he deems 'civility' when inside he is full of prejudice, ignorance and ill will but isn't that just typical of his kind. All the best.
(15)
2009-06-23 12:07:53
Mustaq:
All Muslim women are our sisters and as such subordinate by natural order. Any woman must recognise that the forces outside of the security of the familial environment are a potent and real threat to her well-being and status in Islam. The burqa is a liberating means by which a woman may procede is safety from the boundaries of the familial environment. Women who move from the family even on a temporary basis place themselves at risk from temptation into sinfulness and exploitation and abuse from predatory persons.
Western "liberals" are mistaken believing that the burqa is a product of backward society. In the liberal west there men and women who will target, exploit and abuse vulnerable Muslim women drawing them into a downward spiral of hedonistic activity and eventually leading to their abasement. Equally there are men and women who will take fragile and pure Muslim women and subject them to appalling instances of violence and humiliation such as the gang rapes that are reported in the press.
(16)
2009-06-23 12:27:37
Templar:
'And Hijaab and veil are not religious symbols, they are a form of dress....' — Get your eyesight rightSo therefore you should have no problem in it being banned in public/work places as it is not a religious symbol. Just as it is innapropriatefor someone to go in to a mosque in a bikini it is also innapropraite to wear this symbol of female oppression in a liberal culture. Morroco, also presominantly, has also banned it. Why? Because they think it is backward and has nothing to do with their culture nor their religious practice. So please save the unthinking sheep arguements that you peddle here. What you do in your own homes is your own affair. In public in the UK we don't wan't to see evidence of your patriarchal oppression thank you very much, certainly not in the workplace. As you freely admit it is a cultural NOT a religious thing so you should have no problem with this. Yes I will have a problem in it banned....do not presume to tell me what to do. I do not care what you want...I live in this country and will dress how I like thank you very much and you and other bigoted fools are not going to stop me. If you dont like it then thats your problem. Do not try to pass the 'liberal' culture argument off on me...you know nothing about liberty and you presume to tell people how to dress. Forget Muslim women, you exploit non-Muslim women by telling them how to dress...you arent satisfied till they are wearing as little as possible...when women prance around naked with lustful eyes on them, you label them liberal. Stop pretending Britain is a liberal society when it comes to women. Its about as liberal as any other society. People like yourself are the oppressors who force women to adhere to dress that pleases you by making a mockery of ones you do not like. Countries like France and others that follow suit are the oppressors. Dont presume to tell me what you want or do not want. I do not take orders from you, you patriarchal twit neither it is my job to make a saddo like you happy.
(17)
2009-06-23 18:28:24
MK:
This is what could be expected from the husband of a nude model. If he could he would take his wife around without any piece of cloth on her and she would be happy about this.
(18)
2009-06-23 18:50:37
Acuracy:
You show your characteristically islamic accuracy by speaking of "the burqa" and showing a woman wearing a niqab.
(19)
2009-06-23 21:52:54
extremist:
The French should make it illegal for Muslim women to wear any clothes. Muslim women should be naked. Only then will the 10% of the French population who are Muslim, will open their eyes to political participation. All those Muslims who say "no politics" will only learn when their mothers, sisters and daughters are forced to go out naked. All this "inshaAllah", "maaShaAllah", "alHamdulillah" and "my beard is longer than yours last I checked at the dawa stall" will not be helping you then.
(20)
2009-06-23 23:07:24
slickafoe:
The western idea is so flawed that it is coming apart at the seams.The fact is that there is high rate of rape in all the western countries that do not forbid their women from adhering to a modest form of clothes in particular America where the statistics say there is a rape approximately every two minutes..Put that in your pipe and smoke it.Islam has all the solutions for humanity!
(21)
2009-06-24 12:02:12
H.de payne:
The western idea is so flawed that it is coming apart at the seams.The fact is that there is high rate of rape in all the western countries that do not forbid their women from adhering to a modest form of clothes in particular America where the statistics say there is a rape approximately every two minutes..Put that in your pipe and smoke it.Islam has all the solutions for humanity! — slickafoe
(22)
2009-06-24 18:23:26
Mubashir:
If Burqa is meant not to attract attention, it has miserably failed. A niqab even goes further and people think a bank is soon going to be robbed. Where in the Qur'an it says dress up like that? Modesty is sought and it can be achieved in other apparel than a Black Burqa which makes one look out of this world!!
(23)
2009-06-24 21:37:54
markuk:
The western idea is so flawed that it is coming apart at the seams.The fact is that there is high rate of rape in all the western countries that do not forbid their women from adhering to a modest form of clothes in particular America where the statistics say there is a rape approximately every two minutes..Put that in your pipe and smoke it.Islam has all the solutions for humanity! — slickafoeWives are tilths: sow in them in whatever manner you like...2:223 Muhammad granted permission for contract/temporary marriage with women-8.3246, 3247, 3248 Men are protectors and maintainers of women; women must be devoutly obedient, if not then beat them... 4: 34 A woman who complains about the beatings she receives from her husband is not the best woman...11.2141 Sex with captive women and slave women is permitted-23:5-6
(24)
2009-06-24 23:15:54
AK:
Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet earth. Whether you like it or not it is spreading like a cancer and as you know cancer has no cure. Forget about France and its Models husband, the whole world collectively can not do anything to stop Islam. This is the only religon which freed women from slavery and given them the highest honour.What sort of nonsense is this if you show your body you are liberal and civilized, if you cover you are backword. For God's sake stop your double standard. Why don't you stick to your so called freedom and let muslims and non muslims choose what to wear.
(25)
2009-06-25 06:59:15
Beverley:
Muslim women are sick and tired of groups of perverted men and women doing their utmost to FORCE them to remove their clothing. Western women have always been FORCED to remove their clothing as a sign of free choice in order to be successful.Welcome to the Taliban of the west. If it's ok for 10 year old girls to remove the crutch from their jeans as a fashion statement, then EQUALLY,Muslim females are free to add pieces of cloth to the body anywhere that they choose. This is Hypocrisy not democracy fight it all the way, you know this is the European version of the Jim Crow laws, so fight it!!! Don't become Muslim house negroes.
(26)
2009-06-25 10:13:32
Shan:
h.d payne since we do not need 4 male witnesses in the christian western world why is rape so widespread yet conviction for rapes is around 10 to 20%,it seems christian men have a license to rape by these figures.
As usual you gove halrf truths, the evidence required for rape is 2-4 witnesses-confession or physical evidence semen or dna,so lets keep your hatred of muslims in check, telling porkies will not get you far. Before shedding crocodile tears for muslim women at least have the decency to help your own victims of rape get justice.
(27)
2009-06-25 10:49:00
Shan:
markuk the racist bigot is now a expert on islam, first of all could you answer the question that has been asked of you for the last 2 years now, will you condemn the racist and bigoted attacks in quenchwell-belper and manchester by racist bigots.
Until then none of your remarks will be responded to.
(28)
2009-06-25 10:54:47
Braveheart:
Templar you moron how many under age Muslim Girls do you see on those day time chat shows with one or more children? Answer - None
While non-muslim under age mothers' numbers are soaring in britain! So maybe covering up a little and being a little more modest would reduce underage parenthood! Jackass!
(29)
2009-06-25 12:11:04
Guy Macher:
Masks are not acceptable in Western society. They have always been the trappings of the outlaw. This has been the case for thousands of years before Islam was concocted.
(30)
2009-06-25 12:26:19
Mubashir:
MARKUK
[quote=slickafoe]The western idea is so flawed that it is — markukWives are tilths: sow in them in whatever manner you like...2:223 Muhammad granted permission for contract/temporary marriage with women-8.3246, 3247, 3248 Men are protectors and maintainers of women; women must be devoutly obedient, if not then beat them... 4: 34 A woman who complains about the beatings she receives from her husband is not the best woman...11.2141 Sex with captive women and slave women is permitted-23:5-6 Just quote from the Qur'an please, and not historical fabrications that do not match The Qur'an that calls itself The Criterion. Were you listening personlly to what Muhammad said? 4:34 Men are the protectors and supporters of women. They shall take full care of women with what they spend of their wealth. God has made men to excel in some areas and women to excel in some areas. Men should ensure that women are able to stand at their feet in the society. So, righteous women are obedient to God’s Ordinances and guard the moral values even in privacy, the values that God has commanded to be guarded. If you experience ill-treatment from them, apprise them of possible consequences. Next, leave them in their resting places, but keep admonishing them with examples. If they pay heed to you, do not seek a way against them. God is Most High, Great. 23:6Holding off their desire except for their spouses whom they each other rightfully possess. They are then, free of all blame. [4:3, 24, 25. 24:32] [The very common rendition of this verse is extremely misleading. The ancient and modern scholars, to my knowledge, with the solitary exception of Allama Muhammad Asad in his ‘The Message Of The Qur’an, think that slave girls are being mentioned here. But, Ma Malakat Ayemaanahum is common gender. Could the translators have said for a moment that it was alright for a bondman to have sex with his ‘owner’ woman and that too when she was married! The translators and exponents confined it to the females alone since in the second century after the exalted Prophet, Muslims, under the influence of corrupted Kings and Imams, had begun reverting to the old Ways of Jaahilyah. Some verses foretell these conspiracies: 6:112-113, 22:52-55, 25:31, 42:13-14, 45:16-18. The word AW in 23:6 is explanatory. AW = Or - That is - Namely - Call it - In other words. AW appears in this format instead of ‘or’ in many places in the Qur’an such as 23:5-7, 24:3, 25:62. Please also see 70:30. Ma malakat ayimaanukum = Literally, those whom your right hands possess = Those who are rightfully yours through wedlock] 11.2141 Not found in the Qur'an. Not applicable. Same goes for 8.3246, 3247, 3248. Better luck next time! [Qawwam = Protector = Maintainer = One who helps others to stand at their feet. Nushooz = Ill-treatment = Rebellion = To stand up (2:259, 58:11) = To stand up against virtue = Mental abuse = Domestic violence = To rebel against the permanent moral values. Wa’az = Admonishment = To apprise of consequences (2:231, 3:66). Dharb = Example (13:17, 16:74, 36:13) = To stop or prevent (8:11, 43:5) = To embark upon a journey = Strike the road or begin to travel (4:101) = To give examples (4:34, 13:17, 16:74, 36:13, 43:58) = To withdraw (43:5)] Here are correct quotes, please stand corrected: 2:223Remember that women in the society are the guardians of your future generations, just as a garden keeps the seeds and turns them into flowering plants. So, whenever you meet with women socially, treat them with respect, keeping the aforementioned principle in mind. This conduct will go a long way to insure the betterment of the future generations. Send forth good today for the sake of tomorrow. Be mindful of God and know that you will, one day, face Him. O Messenger! Give good news to the believers.
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2009-06-25 17:23:22
markuk:
markuk the racist bigot is now a expert on islam, first of all could you answer the question that has been asked of you for the last 2 years now, will you condemn the racist and bigoted attacks in quenchwell-belper and manchester by racist bigots. — ShanUntil then none of your remarks will be responded to. I doubt anyone can be an expert on a 1400 year old book that is full to the brim with superstition and zero evidence of it being the word of god. I am no expert all i done is paste what words are printed in your belovered quran. Also i will condemn any racist attack but until you show me that quenchwell-belper was anything at all to do with race. then im afraid i cant. I dont post anything at all to get a respose from you, but you seem to respond to every single one of my posts with ****.
(32)
2009-06-25 19:26:49
JAB:
If women really want to wear the burqa, fine - just as long as they do so in countries where it is the custom. I really don't care where people are from originally, or what colour they are, but I do believe societies are most content when they are monocultural. In other words, if you're originally from, say, Afghanistan, that's OK - just adhere to British norms and and a British way of life. Leave your burqas and ultra-conservative attitudes in Afghanistan. Don't import ways and customs that are totally alien to us. Equally, I would fully expect - or even demand - that Brits living in other countries adhere to the local norms. I did when I lived abroad - it's a matter of respect for one's hosts. People here quite reasonably want to see each other's faces - ogling at women has nothing to do with it. Burqas have no place on European streets - they are not welcome, even if their wearers are.
(33)
2009-06-30 11:09:10
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