MPACUK - Genocide in Gaza: Your Comments & Updates From Around The Globe **updated(7)**

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Genocide in Gaza: Your Comments & Updates From Around The Globe **updated(7)**

Monday, 29 December 2008

Click here to read the latest read news and comment on Palestine from sources the BBC and CNN dare not show.

08/01/2009

12:00 Israel Condemns Vatican’s ‘Concentration Camp’ Remarks [NY Times]

11:20 Ex US President Jimmy Carter calls it a completely unnecessary war [Washington Post]

07/01/2009

22:55 Vatican justice minister calls Gaza Strip a 'big concentration camp' [Telegraph]

21:00 Curtis Doebbler: The inconvenient truth about Gaza [UNObservor.com]

18:16 France retracts truce deal claim [Al Jazeerah]

16:03 Saudi rejects call for oil embargo over Israel [Reuters]

14:18 UNRWA 3hr pause not enough [Press TV]

14:18 Hamas stop rocket attacks too [Al Arabiya]

11:29 Nasrallah to UN: Our eyes are on you [Press TV]

10:24 UN: Gaza school attack only hit civilians [Press TV]

08:16 Denmark summons Israeli ambassador [Press TV]

06/01/2009

23:00 Israel founded on ethic cleansing [Counter Punch]

22:19 Turkish Fans End Basketball Match Between Turkish & Israeli Teams [Haaretz]

22:00 The Israel Rules [Common Dreams]

21:00 Separating the Truth from the Hype [InformationClearingHouse]

19:49 We are coming [Free Gaza Movement]

18:39 Arab students arrested for demonstrating against Israel [Haaretz]

16:40 Venezuela expels Israel envoy over Gaza attacks [Reuters]

16:00 Canadian union wants ban on Israeli academics [globeandmail.com]

13:46 Egypt bars doctors from entering Gaza Strip [Haaretz]

11:00 Israeli offensive continues, over 577 killed and 2,700 wounded [Uruk.net]

05/01/2009

21:01 Leave me and save my children [Boston.com]

18:27 Israeli troops and Hamas fighters clash in streets of Gaza City [The Guardian]

14:02 In Pictures: the slaughter of Gazan children [Uruk.net]

10:15 Report: Saudi Recommendation to Weaken Hizbullah and Hamas [Naharnet]

05:33 Israelis watch bombardment of Gaza town [KansasCity.com]

05:20 Demonstrations continue worldwide over Gaza violence [Ynet News]

04/01/2009

16:00 Mother and four children among latest dead [uruknet]

15:30 UN must set up tribunal to prosecute Israeli war criminals [Criminalise War Blog]

13:16 Depleted uranium found in Gaza victims [Press TV]

13:00 Dowing Street gets shoed [Daily Mail]

03/01/2009

21:00 Israelis march against war [Al Jazeerah]

18:00 Israel has plenty of tactics for war, but none for peace [The Guardian]

17:00 World's Muslims protest in solidarity with Gazans [France24]

15:00 Thousands March For Gaza [The Guardian]

11:20 "There are no Palestinian civilian men" [ABC Australia]

11:20 As War Sentiment Grows, Israeli Arabs Increasingly Seen as 'Traitors' [AntiWar.com]

11:20 Gaza Becomes a Chessboard for Israeli Leaders [AntiWar.com]

11:20 Who Wins What in Gaza... Israel and the Silent Partner [Counterpunch]

11:20 Robert Fisk: The rotten state of Egypt is too powerless and corrupt to act [The Independent]

02/01/2009

13:00 Muslims must unite with the majority to resist the violence done to Gaza [comment is free]

11:00 Inheriting Bush's blinkers [comment is free]

09:00 Hello.... This is the IDF [CounterPunch]

01/01/2009 - What a way to start the new year?

21:00 What If Hamas Didn't Exist? [Counter Punch]

18:00 US blocks UN Security Council action on Gaza [Middle East Online]

17:01 This is not about rockets [Dissident Voice]

15:00 Gazans fight cold and hunger as supplies run dry [The Times]

11:00 Israeli cowards glorify the killing of eight civilians by parading video footage [The Guardian]

11:00 Toothless Abbas threatens to end talks with Israel - Does nothing [ARY]

11:00 Egypt Seen as Complicit in Gaza Assault [Antiwar.com]

11:00 Dead Palestinians Have Names Too! [Desert Peace]

11:00 We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas [The Times]

11:00 The Palestinian Holocaust [Information Clearing House]

11:00 Israel's onslaught on Gaza is a crime that cannot succeed The US-backed attempt to bring Hamas to heel by overwhelming force is in fact more likely to boost the movement's appeal [The Guardian]

10:00 Torah-true Jews Condemn israeli actions in Gaza [Press TV]

10:00 Israel’s warped self-justification for murder [Redress]

09:00 Israel Targets Gaza Mosques [Islam Online]

09:00 Donít fall for Israeli propaganda [Online Journal]

09:00 24 Things you won't hear on the BBC [LENIN'S TOMB]

09:00 Israel stifles free press covering Gaza [macon.com]

08:29 Hamas gaining sympathy as onslaught continues [Desert Peace Blog]

08:00 Lights Out in Gaza, News Blackout in US [Common Dreams]

08:00 Memo Reveals Truth Behind Egyptian Lies about Gaza‏ [iEngage]

08:00 Gaza bombing protest held in Birmingham Well done Brummies! [Birmingham Mail]

08:00 Thousands take to the streets to denounce Israeli violence [Al Arabiya]

08:00 Israeli security cabinet rejects Gaza truce bids [Al Arabiya]

01:24 The truth about those Hamas rockets [Online Journal]

31/12/2008

23:33 Ahmedinejad highlights Arab impotence [Al Jazeerah]

23:32Obama complicit in Israel's massacre? [Al Jazeerah]

23:31Lip service condemnation of Israel from the Arab world [Topix]

23:30 PM's daughter protests Gaza killings [Ynetnews]

22:00 More pictures of the bloodshed [Palestinian Mothers]

21:00 US military aid underpins Gaza offensive [Al Jazeerah]

17:30 Israeli students support war, destructruction and racism [Ynetnews]

17:00 Iran to Arabs: time to act over Gaza attacks [Al Arabiya]

16:00 The IAF- Bullies of the sky [Haaretz]

15:32 Turkish PM in Syria over Israeli attacks on Gaza [Al Arabiya]

11.30 How we like our leaders [Haaretz]

11:00 Israelís lie machine working flat out to dodge …killerî question [Redress]

10:00 From the horse's mouth- Israel broke the truce! [Haaretz]

09:01 Pakistani View: Israeli attacks on Hamas to continue, says US [Dawn]

09:01 Kiwis View: World leaders call for Mideast truce [New Zealand Herald]

09:01 Indian View: From Mideast to Europe, protests swell [Times of India]

09:01 Dutch View: Israeli aircraft pound Gaza for fourth day [Radio Netherlands]

09:00 Tariq Ali: From the ashes of Gaza In the face of Israel's latest onslaught, the only option for Palestinian nationalism is to embrace a one-state solution [The Guardian]

09:00 The First Victim of Israel's War Was The Truth [The Times]

09:00 Rabbis: Killing Civilians is OK [Artuz Sheva]

08:10 EXCLUSIVE Gaza Massacre Pictures** WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT ** See what Israel is doing! [Bubbleshare]
BubbleShare: Share photos - Easy Photo Sharing

08:10 How Israeli Leaders Kill for their People's Votes [Palestine Think Tank]

08:00 At least 30 children killed in Gaza Strip, Israeli quoted as saying "they are legitimate target" [PNN]

30/12/2008

23:41 Eye witness: 'The injured were lying there asking God to let them die' [Guardian]

23:40 Violence and Lies: What, Exactly, is Israel's Mission? [Counter Punch]

23:25 Israeli women says: "What's been happening in Gaza is fantastic." [BBC]

23:00 Nowhere to run for those trapped in Gaza [Al Jazeerah]

22:00 Israeli human rights groups contest IDF accounts [Al Jazeerah]

21:00 Bush Thanks Egypt for their support [China View]

20:00 Obama and Bush are in agreement - Give Israel Missiles [Jewish Post]

19: 30 McKinney to Obama: "Say Something" About Gaza Humanitarian Crisis [Black Agenda Report]

18:21 Hollywood stars shun pro-Israeli diamond store [Al Arabiya]

18:01 Gaza children die as Israel rejects truce [Al Arabiya]

18:00 http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/12/30/63089.html [Al Arabiya]

17:20 The New York Times Justifies the Bombing of a Palestinain University [NYT]

17:00Today Israel takes down an entire apt building of civilians to kill the family of one man. In Canada, we call that terrorism. [Reddit]

16:00 MEP Chris Davis Condemns Israel [youtube]

15:20 [Video] Israel: All out war on Palestine [Channel 4]

13:45 Some interesting facts about Palestine [Palestine Campaign]

13:00 The world gives Israel a free hand The initial response to the crisis in Gaza from countries including Britain has comprised only routine expressions of dismay [The Guardian]

11:30 At least 30 children killed in Gaza Strip, Israeli spokesperson says they are legitimate target [uruknet]

11:15 A list of Rally's all around the world [atheo news]

11:10 Violent Protests In West Bank After Israeli Raids and Airstrikes Killing HUNDREDS of INNOCENT Muslims

11:00 Israeli strikes spark protests across world [Telegraph]

10:50 Israel is doomed! [IndyBay]

10:45 View From a Palestinian Leader: Palestine's Guernica and the Myths of Israeli Victimhood [Washington Note]

10:20 Israel seals off Gaza to journalists [REUTERS]

10:00 We have no words left Palestinians are at a loss to describe this latest catastrophe. International civil society must act now [The Guardian]

08:54 Abbas: Serves Hamas right, they could have prevented 'massacre' [JPost]

08:10 Anti-Defamation League claims Israel has a right to massacre innocent children, as long as they are palestinian [ADL]

01:04 Remember: It was Israel that broke the ceasefire [Maan News Agency]

00:58 Middle East Peace Envoy Tony Blair to travel to Palestine NEXT WEEK Yes, unbelievable, next week! [The Independent]

00:38 Robert Fisk: We've got so used to the carnage of the Middle East that we don't care any more – providing we don't offend the Israelis [The Independent]

00:36 In pictures: Gaza Massacre (Graphic! possibly NSFW) [uruknet]

00:32 Today I end my support of Israel Like davidminzer, I'm Jewish and descendant of holocaust survivors. Moreover, I've been a Zionist all of my life. I went to a Zionist school, I was active in Zionist youth groups. I've always been a fervent supporter of Israel...today I finally and publicly end my support for the state of Israel. [Daily Kos]

00:21 Not Arabs the problem... not Jews the problem...not Judaism, not Muslim...only Zionism. [youtube]

00:15 Gaza: the logic of colonial power As so often, the term 'terrorism' has proved a rhetorical smokescreen under cover of which the strong crush the weak [The Guardian]

29/12/2008

23:50 Israeli politics lies behind Gaza attacks[The Telegraph]

23:59 Father mourns loss of five children in Gaza strike [The Telegraph]

23:56 GMT Gaza Massacre - Slideshow [sabah.biz]

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Readers have left 178 comments.

saj:

To understand a little bit more about how and why this cancer called Israel was injected into the heart of the Muslim world and the export of European Nazi Fascist ideology i.e. ZIO-NAZISM. I urge everyone to watch the BBC2 Documentary “Clash or Worlds” Part 3 Palestine, it is very educational and open your eyes to the Crusaders and will make clear who are, were and always will be the true enemies of Islam a must see documentary found on Google videos!

(1) 2008-12-30 01:56:25

iprotect:

LONDON

Tuesday 30 December, 2 - 4pm outside Israeli Embassy, Kensington High Street, London, W4. Nearest tube Kensingston High Street (turn right out of tube station and walk along the main road.

Wednesday 31 December, 2 - 4pm outside Israeli Embassy

Thursday 1 January 2 - 4pm outside Israeli Embassy

Friday 2 January 2 - 4 pm. Outside the Egyptian Embassy, . 26 South Street, London, W1K 1DW. Call for Egypt to open the border immediately.

SATURDAY 3 JANUARY. DEMONSTRATION AND RALLY. Assemble 2pm Parliament Square, W1. Nearest tube Westminster

(2) 2008-12-30 02:35:07

abu:

— iprotect

yes, I will be there!

make sure your face is covered, MI5 will have cameras all around.

(3) 2008-12-30 10:48:21

Optimus Prime:

yes, I will be there!
make sure your face is covered, MI5 will have cameras all around.

— abu

And?!!! If you're that scared why turn up? If they were watching you - they already know what you look like, who you are and what colour pants you got on! Like covering your face will stop them from getting you if they wanted you...

I dunno - what is wrong with our lot these days....

(4) 2008-12-30 11:15:10

slickafoe:

This Friday,don't let your maulana's/Imams lead the prayer without even a mention of the current doom & destruction on our wider families in Palestine

(5) 2008-12-30 11:24:49

jack:

"The Egyptian newspaper al-Ahram also hinted that Hamas was at least partly to blame for invoking the wrath of Israel with its constant rocket attacks, which appear to serve no strategic purpose. “If you can’t kill the wolf, don’t pull its tail,” it commented.

I understand from the Times that 70 rockets were fired by Hamas on last Wednesday alone.

No country on earth would allow that to happen without reacting strongly. Perhaps the armchair jihadis hereabouts might like to wonder if jaw-jaw could indeed be better than war-war?

(6) 2008-12-30 12:05:05

shan:

jack by your standards then the palestinians have every right to resist by all means,since they are under occupation, no people on the face of the earth will endure endless occupation.
I just hope you will be so understanding when the boot is on the other foot.

(7) 2008-12-30 14:42:18

ahmed:

uslims seem to come out in force when non muslims have a problem with them when muslims kill muslims not a peep, there is somthing very fishy about that dont you think, eg black september, Darfur, all the 12400+ terror atacks since 911 not a peep from muslims when Isreal defends world wide demonstrations but its nithing to do with religion they say.

(8) 2008-12-30 14:48:23

abu:

I advise everyone going to these demos to cover their faces. Anyone advising you otherwise is probably working for MI5 and WANTS you to show your face.

(9) 2008-12-30 15:17:24

jack:

Shan - 60 years ago the United Nations authorised the creation of Israel within much smaller borders than is now has.

In 1948 all the arab nations attacked, and lost. It was the same in 1967. Every time Israel won and got bigger. No attacks have been effective.

Now Israel is never going to negotiate with an outfit that wants it utterly destroyed and keeps firing rockets at it, is it?

So al-Ahram is correct to say that the rocket attacks served no strategic purpose. They served the tactical purpose for Hamas of ensuring that Israel attacked and people like you went on demos to keep the "palestinian issue" in the public eye.

A side effect of this is that you give Israel the excuse to treat the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza even more disgracefully and get away with it.

The Palestinians are certainly guilty of one thing - stupidity.

If the Palestinians do not want permanent war, and permanent defeat, they will have to come to terms with Israel and negotiate the best deal possible.

Its that simple.

As for no people on earth enduring endless occupation, what nonsense. How about the Native Americans, the Australian Aboriginals, the Berbers of North Africa, or the native English, occupied in turn by romans, saxons, danes, normans and pakistanis?

(10) 2008-12-30 16:12:53

Optimus Prime:

I advise everyone going to these demos to cover their faces. Anyone advising you otherwise is probably working for MI5 and WANTS you to show your face.

— abu

You have a N.I. no, you may have an oyster card which has monitored your travel movements, your internet usage is probably being monitored too, you've also been caught on CCTV a stupid no of times today aleady.

Now do you see how stupid your advice of hiding your face sounds?

Oh I'm now MI5 am I?!! That is just a typical example of how stupid some Muslims have become. What is the point of a demo and even attending if you're going to hide your face?

Anyhoo back to MI5 business for me...

(11) 2008-12-30 16:33:34

Oliver:

Dear Friends,

You may have heard on the news today the accusation made by the Egyptians that Hamas are stopping seriously wounded people from leaving Gaza to get medical treatment in Egypt. This is not true. For the past two days I have been in regular contact with the senior Hamas people in Gaza responsible for the Rafah Crossing and with officials at the highest level of the Turkish and Swiss Governments to ensure that the seriously wounded in Gaza are given the medical attention they need. Over two hundred people are in danger of death unless they are treated. Both governments are anxious to help but were wrongly informed by the Egyptian authorities that Hamas officials would not co-operate. On the contrary the officials at Rafah have repeatedly asked the Egyptian authorities to send ambulances to collect the most seriously wounded and they refused. Yesterday they allowed a few ambulances supplied by the Turkish and Qatari governments to cross but permission was refused to allow any of their own ambulances that were queuing on the Egyptian side to cross and to assist evacuate the wounded despite repeated requests from those responsible for the crossing. The Turkish Government told me that they prepared a plane especially equipped to evacuate the wounded. It would fly to El Arish, the nearest Egyptian airport to Gaza, but The Egyptians refused permission on the grounds that the airport was closed for safety reasons. The Swiss are ready to fly in medical supplies but also require Egyptian permission.

May I ask you to take immediate action to help the wounded by:

Writing to or calling Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, demanding the UK put pressure on the Egyptians to co-operate and that we help to evacuate the wounded.

Writing to or calling the Egyptian Ambassador demanding that they stop playing games with peoples’ lives and to send ambulances to evacuate the wounded and to open El Arish immediately to receive air ambulances and medical aid.

Please get as many people to act immediately as the longer the delay the more lives are at risk!!!

Thanks
Oliver

(12) 2008-12-30 17:25:43

SilverLJ:

— saj

One wonders what world you live in.

One might as well talk about the cancer of Iran being injected into the heart of the Muslim world exporting Islamic fascism and if you read Saudi sponsored literature you will know that 'all shia are liars'.

If there are enemies of Islam then they are within it not outside it. Muslims lock themselves away in some forgotten land and only listen to themselves.

You talk about a documentary - where was it made? Go and find out how many books were published by lets call it 'the Islamic world last' year?

(13) 2008-12-30 17:25:48

Mohammed Fatah:

Open Letter to the Prime Minister on Gaza

As Printed in The Guardian Tomorrow Insha’Allah 31st December 2008

Dear Prime Minister,

The illegal and inhumane bombardment of the Gaza Strip by Israeli forces has shocked us all. The images beamed around the globe show the horror of death and destruction unleashed against an Occupied People, contrary to all humanitarian standards. The mass outrage expressed on the streets of Britain is yet to be reflected in the actions of our government, and this is unacceptable.

While Gaza mourns its dead the deafening silence of our Prime Minister and government is a source of great bewilderment. Is it not time for a firm intervention that brings relief to the thousands of injured? We can only imagine conditions in the beleaguered hospitals where the most basic medicines were exhausted before the attacks, because of the inhumane blockade imposed on the million and a half inhabitants of the strip.

Since 2006, humanitarian conditions have deteriorated to unprecedented levels. Parents who have watched babies die; 600,000 children now suffer from post traumatic disorder as a result of Israeli state terror and international sanctions. It is time to stop this brutality and allow the Palestinian people to live in peace and dignity.

A few weeks ago, it was notable how you rightly rushed to Islamabad and New Delhi in the wake of the Mumbai attacks in order to calm all parties, avert escalation and further bloodshed. One wonders if you intend to visit Tel Aviv and make clear to the Israeli leadership that nothing can excuse nor justify targeting charities, hospitals, medical stores and pharmacies, mosques and universities, causing maximum casualties. Will you then proceed to Gaza and console the orphans and widows of this brutal campaign?

Prime Minister, this is your hour with history and we urge you to take the first step. We expect nothing less of our government than an unequivocal condemnation of Israel's actions, as it has condemned similar brutalities committed by various states around the world. We urge you to ensure:

· An immediate end to Israel's military assault on Gaza
· An immediate end to the blockade and siege on Gaza
· An end to Israel's violation of International Law
· An end to Israeli Occupation

Signatories:
Muslim Council of Britain • British Muslim Forum • Al-Khoei Foundation • British Muslim Initiative • Council of European Jama'ats • Friends of Al-Aqsa • Federation of Student Islamic Societies • Dawat ul Islam • Islamic Human Rights Commission • Islamic Forum Europe • Islamic Society of Britain • Muslim Association of Britain • Muslim Directory • Palestinian Forum in Britain • Palestinian Return Centre • Palestinian Solidarity Campaign • Sri Lanka Islamic Forum UK • Stop the War Coalition • Respect • UK Islamic Mission • World Ahlul-Bayt Islamic League

End Israel's barbarity: Free Palestine
National Demonstration on Saturday 3rd January '09 in Central London. Assembly at 12.30pm at Embankment

For further information visit:
www.stopwar.org.uk • www.bminitiative.net • www.palestinecampaign.org • www.prc.org.uk

(14) 2008-12-30 17:25:49

shan:

jack i think you need to understand what endless occupation means,all the people you mentioned have been over the centuries assimilated or overtaken by demographics.
what we have in palestine is 60 years of constant occupation and oppression of the natives,in 1948 which arab nations are you talking about jordan under occupation-iraq under occuaption-syria unde occuaption, the only arab nation who made a tokenist attempt was egypt,that is why today it is paid 3 billion dollars to refrain from liberating palestine.
So as i said i hope you will quite understanding when the boot is on the other foot and it surely will be in the near future.

(15) 2008-12-30 17:27:18

jack:

shan - obviously you see no need to change a losing strategy.

nearly all of history is to do with the movement of peoples, often driven out of their homelands by invaders who in turn have been driven out of theirs. Every one includes thousands of private tragedies. This is no different.

I merely reiterate that the strategy adopted has not only failed for 60 years, every attempt to implement it has simply made matters worse.

Why would this time be different?

(16) 2008-12-30 19:46:06

Colin the Athiest:

Give Hamas its due. It is honest about its genocidal intentions towards Jews.

Here is a link to the Hamas "covenant."

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Some snippets:

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious."

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

"Allah is its [Hamas'] target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."

The Palestinians voted for a party that plainly stated its intention to commit genocide against Jews. It is a party that has done all in its power to give substance to its stated intentions.

Now the Palestinians have a war in which Palestinians are dying.

For the life of me I cannot see how the Palestinians could have expected any other outcome.

(17) 2008-12-30 21:33:14

Saj:

The BBC Have Your Say Forum have removed one of the highest recommended Pro palestinian comments from their board, I did ask them the following:

I would like to know in the HYS debate asking if Israeli actions are justified why the only comment in support of the Palestinians was removed even though it has received recommendation in excess of 1750? I will be taking up this is issues with local groups and demand a valid reason. If it was deemed unsuitable then we want to know why and was the person given the option to remove whatever was deemed offensive? Would that not have been fairer that removing the entire comment?

It's disgusting, there are all sorts of comments allowed that degrade muslims, they should not be allowed to get away with this.

(18) 2008-12-30 22:33:35

Henry:

.

Now Israel is never going to negotiate with an outfit that wants it utterly destroyed and keeps firing rockets at it, is it?

Why should Palestinians negotiatiate with a Terrorist state like Israel, that
*Illegally occupies their country
*Bulldozes and takes over their homes, property and businesses o
*Committs terror to try and ethinically cleanse a race of
people
*Builds settlements on stolen land
*Violates numerous UN resolutions
*Allows settler zionists to commit murder
*Assasinates PLO and Hamas poltical leaders
*Lobbys the US and UK for moral, military, financial support, and recieving it
*Deliberatly kills civilians including children
*Cuts off Gaza from the rest of the world
*Starves Gazans and the Palestinian people by denying access to water, food, and shelter

A side effect of this is that you give Israel the excuse to treat the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza even more disgracefully and get away with it.

As if Palestinians were treated fairly and equally before!

The Palestinians are certainly guilty of one thing - stupidity.

Hamas has done more for Palestinians than the previously inept Fatah could not do for decades. Hamas stands up to Israel unlike those puppeta Fatah and you. You are guilty of ignorance, hate, and having a colonial mindset.

If the Palestinians do not want permanent war, and permanent defeat, they will have to come to terms with Israel and negotiate the best deal possible.

Palestnians have been at war since 67, and they are still there today, standing, and will be there till kingdom come! Does the best deal mean giving up your land, homes and being exiled, because that is what the Zionist's want. Never!

As for no people on earth enduring endless occupation, what nonsense. How about the Native Americans, the Australian Aboriginals, the Berbers of North Africa, or the native English, occupied in turn by romans, saxons, danes, normans and pakistanis?

— jack

Are the native English really occupied by the Pakistani's? You are really stupid. There are only 1.3% Pakistanis in England, that has a population over 55 million, roughly about 800,000. There are more Indians in England than Pakistani. And I did not know the Prime Minister, Defence Secretary, Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary et al were all Pakistanis?

Jack you are the most dumbest person on this forum. Goodbye

(19) 2008-12-31 03:44:32

Henry:

— Colin the Athiest

Colin the Atheist, aren't you very clever to realise the Palistinian-Israeli conflict is a serious and very grave situation? It has only taken you 41 years, or 60 years!
Well, I don't want to be accused of agesim.

I am glad you are an atheist, because I would be very embarrased and angry if a muslim tried to explain the context of a hadith, in your fashion.

Is this verse a literal meaning, or a metaphor. When is the Day of Judgement? Many people have said the countdown to the Day of Judgement begun 100 years ago. Has it begun now? How long is the Countdown for, 50 years, 500 years, 1000 years? Does the verse accurately and precisely talk about the Palestninian/Israeli conflict going on right now? Could it be a previous conflict, or a future one? There are millions of Muslim that are not Palestinian, and there are numerous Jews living outside of Palestine.

Stones and Trees talking? Is this is a metaphor for something else?

How sound is this hadith. Is it 100% authentic, semi-authentic, or weak, which in that case, means it is not taken serious. Maybe muslims should start to change, distort, and twist revelations to be all things to all people. I am sure the Christians could offer some experience in that exercise.

Jihad has many meanings, one which is war against those who persecute and murder you indiscrminantly, something the state of Israel has been doing since 1967. I am sure you would do Jihad if someone attacked you and your family Colin, or are you a coward, and will carpet bomb an entire village.

You are not an expert on Islamic Sciences, so do not copy-paste a hadith from a website, run by amateurs and offer your own flimsy, pathetic interpretation.

You have added credence to the rumour that atheist's are retarded. Are you also a member of the flat earth society?

Hamas has not stated that it want's to committ genocide sgainst Israel. It has stated it wants to retrieve all the land the Israel's have stolen and are still stealing since 1967, despite a thousandth UN resolution asking it to stop. And since Israel has been committing state terror since 1967, and allowing settlers to committ terror, and ethincally cleansing a race of people, Hamas, has said it will fight fire with fire. Nothing wrong with that!

And more recently, it was Israel that broke the ceasfire, despite what your BBC, CNN, or Fox news say, and renegaded on its promise to lift the Gaza embargo.

Palestinians have been experiencing these difficulties before, and will survive this massacre, and will rise again. Just go and ask your Israeli friends on that one. Freedom one day will arrive!!

(20) 2008-12-31 04:29:36

Henry:

— Colin the Athiest

Colin the Atheist, aren't you very clever to realise the Palistinian-Israeli conflict is a serious and very grave situation? It has only taken you 41 years, or 60 years!
Well, I don't want to be accused of agesim.

I am glad you are an atheist, because I would be very embarrased and angry if a muslim tried to explain the context of a hadith, in your fashion.

Is this verse a literal meaning, or a metaphor. When is the Day of Judgement? Many people have said the countdown to the Day of Judgement begun 100 years ago. Has it begun now? How long is the Countdown for, 50 years, 500 years, 1000 years? Does the verse accurately and precisely talk about the Palestninian/Israeli conflict going on right now? Could it be a previous conflict, or a future one? There are millions of Muslim that are not Palestinian, and there are numerous Jews living outside of Palestine.

Stones and Trees talking? Is this is a metaphor for something else?

How sound is this hadith. Is it 100% authentic, semi-authentic, or weak, which in that case, means it is not taken serious. Maybe Muslims should start to change, distort, and twist revelations, to be all things to all people. I am sure the Christians could offer some experience in that exercise.

Jihad has many meanings, one which is war against those who persecute and murder you indiscriminately, something the state of Israel has been doing since 1967. I am sure you would do Jihad if someone attacked you and your family Colin, or are you a coward, and will carpet bomb an entire village.

You are not an expert on Islamic Sciences, so do not copy-paste a hadith from a website, run by amateurs and offer your own flimsy, pathetic interpretation.

You have added credence to the rumour that atheist's are retarded. Are you also a member of the flat earth society?

Hamas has not stated that it want's to commit genocide against Israel. It has stated it wants to retrieve all the land the Israel's have stolen and are still stealing since 1967, despite a thousandth UN resolution asking it to stop. And since Israel has been committing state terror since 1967, and allowing settlers to commit terror, and ethnically cleansing a race of people, Hamas, has said it will fight fire with fire. Nothing wrong with that!

And more recently, it was Israel that broke the ceasefire, despite what your BBC, CNN, or Fox news say, and renegaded on its promise to lift the Gaza embargo.

Palestinians have been experiencing these difficulties before, and will survive this massacre, and will rise again. Just go and ask your Israeli friends on that one. Freedom one day will arrive!!

(21) 2008-12-31 04:33:16

Frank:

"How sound is this hadith. Is it 100% authentic, semi-authentic, or weak, which in that case, means it is not taken serious. Maybe Muslims should start to change, distort, and twist revelations, to be all things to all people. I am sure the Christians could offer some experience in that exercise."

Well it is in the Hamas Covenant, so they think it is authentic.

Obviously, it isn't authentic. If it were, it wouldn't be Hamas members dying in droves, as Israeli missiles smoke them out.

I don't usually favour supernatural and religious explanations for military and political events, but you guys do. In which case, has it occurred to you that God might not be with the Palestinians?

(22) 2008-12-31 08:49:23

shan:

The occuaption of palestine and the daily murder and oppression is a basic matter of right and wrong.
involving religions is secondary issue, the matter at hand is occupation and resistance, kuwait was occupied by iraq it was liberated we are informed becasue it is wrong to occupy other people homes and lands,so we are awaiting the liberation of palestine,the last time it lasted for 90 odd years.
This time around palestine will be liberated in a similar time frame.

(23) 2008-12-31 10:45:45

The informer:

ALL MUSLIMS (SHIA+SUNNI) must unite and fight our enemy. First we must counter their agenda. Israel mobilises their global Students and diaspora in advance to support its agenda of killings and counter any antu-israeli articles, views in the media. It even has an automated "Megaphone" software http://giyus.org/ gives out to its activists to vote supporting Israel.

Surely there are many Muslim software experts that can write a slimilar software programe that can seek relevant polls, articles on the web and cordinate global Muslim opinions.

Half of the war is influencing and controlling Global hearts and minds. ISrael does this very effectively using tools such as Megaphone software. I know for instance there are world class hackers in Pakistan and Bangladesh, India who can write something like this in a jot.

Please. Have alook at http://giyus.org/ to get some ideas of how they do this.

(24) 2008-12-31 13:48:24

RSD:

The taking someone else's property and life was central to the 1947 war aims in Palestine as promulgated by the Muslim dominated Palestinian leadership. They determined that all Jews regardless of political affiliation, period of residency, place of birth had no rights of life or property. It was notable that the primary targets of the Palestinian Muslim violence were traditional Jewish communities that had existed for centuries and far from being "Zionist".
But this is all irrelevant because Hamas and its backers & supporters want to create a Khalifat in which there are no Jews at all and other non-Muslims must live as sub-humans. Paradise On Earth!

(25) 2008-12-31 14:40:06

Timothy:

The sad fact is that many human rights activists and groups are silent when the victims are palestinians because they don't actually believe that palestinians are human and these same groups and individuals that hide behind the guise of jewish human rights are even willing israel to carry out the genoicde by clearing gaza and the west bank of palestinain life so that israel can be expanded as they believe that jews suffered the holocaust all those years and must once again take their place as the chosen race.

(26) 2008-12-31 14:50:25

jack:

henry is a bit too anal to realise that my comment about pakistanis was a joke.

however the BNP and Hamas would both claim that "their" people are being driven out by newcomers.

one bunch of loonies is much the same as the other.

(27) 2008-12-31 15:36:34

meep:

thsi outrage against humanity cannot be allowed to carry on! the sanctity of human life has been ripped to shreds by the zionists israeli terrorist state. the world swallows the presposterous lies that spew out of the israeli government. gaza is another warsaw ghetto, its shameful that those who have been through the holocaust are implementing the same strategy on the people of Gaza. mankind must stand against such disregard for palestinian lives.the media propaganda machine cannot hold up much longer- the blogosphere is accessible to everyone who wnats to know the truth. israel does not want peace. they have rejected calls for a truce, even though hamas have stated they are willing to stop ther fighting for a cease fire. israel wants everything on their terms. remember it was actually israel who broke the cease fire on nov 4th.

(28) 2008-12-31 17:08:28

Henry:

RSD, you are clearly talking out of your rear-end again. The state of Israel was created on murderous foundation, have you forgotten who bombed the British in Palestine? The Zionist Jews, the self-styled children of God (I wonder how God will react to their muderous activities) want an Israel free from Palestinians. Hamas, democratically elected, put's to death the notion, that Israel is the only democracy in the region, is resisting the occupation and those who support them! If the elected Hamas want to reclaim all the land that the Zionist's have stolen from the Palestinian's, then what is wrong with claiming what is rightfully your's and wanting to fulfill the wish of the very people that elected you? And if Hamas want to create a Khalifate, a wish of the people who voted them in, what an earth has got it to do with you? If the Palestinian people do not like the Khalifate, they can vote them out, and vote in the secular PLO. That is how democracy works! I suppose you only support the concept of democracy when it pleases you?

Hamas, have stated on many occasions, the Jews that were living in Palestine, prior to 1948, can stay there as they are part of the indigenous population. It is Jews that have emigrated there, after from allover the world, that should go back to their country of birth. French Jews should go back to France, Russian Jews should go back to Russia, American Jews should go back to the USA. Sorry, there really is no room in the Inn.

It is precisely this reason why the allied nations such as Britain, refused to take in large number of Jews- 'swamped' was the buzzword then, and of course re-used again by that dragon Margaret Thatcher

Zionist' even and designs on Uganda and Argentina as a place to occupy.

Jack, good to hear your a racist and member of the BNP. Leave your banal racist 'jokes' for the Bernand Manning/Chubby Brown generation.

Do you seriously believe, the Palestinian people are not been driven out their country, even a 16 yr old can dispute that. Why do people like you deny the facts?

After the Balfour Declaration scores and scores of Jews from allover the world had the mandate to settle there, whilst over the years millions of indigenous Palestninians have been shifted out to refugee camps, or forced to flea to Jordan, and Egypt. And still cannot return to their country of origin because the Zionist state of Israel will not allow them. A fact, supported by the UN and several humanatarian organisations.

Israel believes the country is a homeland for ALL Jewish people and they plan to maintain a demographic Jewish majority. In 1950, the government instituted a fundamental piece of legislation, the Law of Return, which grants every Jew the automatic right to immigrate to Israel and become a citizen of the state. Israel's Law of Return granted Israeli citizenship to anyone with a maternal or paternal Jewish grandparent.

Goodbye, Jack, and get out from your slumber of ignorance and xenophobia.

(29) 2008-12-31 17:22:59

Henry:

(30) 2008-12-31 17:24:31

timothy:

I mean we had to go into iraq on the pretence that saddam was murdering his own people so we went into iraq in an illegal invasion and murdered a few more thousand iraqis.

when the palestinians are being murdered the human rights activists and human rights groups who wanted to go into an ilegal war and kill more iraqis don't do anything because they can't really go and kill more palestinians as the job is already being done for them.... that's why israel was created to wipe palestinains off the face the of the earth and to recreate the chosen race in muslim lands.

(31) 2008-12-31 17:50:33

Liberty:

Israel is provoked, threatened and under attack every day from Hamas. Surrounded by neighbours intent on its annihilation, what other course of action could it follow? Should it just sit back and accept the daily bombardment from Gaza? Accept that on a regular basis it must treat the wounded, bury the dead and rebuild the homes of the civilians that were specifically targetted?

I do not condone violence from either side but neither can I accept the hypocrisy of those who revel in sensational headlines and tragic images hoping to further their anti-semitic agenda.

Where are the images of death and destruction perpretrated by Muslims? Where is the outrage when Muslim kills Muslim? But who then would be the victim?

(32) 2008-12-31 20:02:32

muhammad:

why do you allow imbeciles like jack to post on this website when mainstream media like the bbc or times censor comments not friendly to Israel.

(33) 2008-12-31 22:44:43

Henry:

Liberty, you are not fitting to hold such a name. You have no idea what it is like to live under occupation, colonisation, being stopped at checkpoints, strip searched, denied access to water, food, shelter, education and health. The Israelis killed a 4yr old girl today. For God sake she was only 4yrs old. Like many before her, and no doubt the Israel war machine will kill more alike in the future. I demand you immadiatley withdraw from using the name Liberty again. You are disgrace to all those people who have been fighting in the name of freedom both Palestinian and non-Palestinian.

And which neighbours actually want to anihilate Israel. Jordon and Egypt have signed peace treaties with Israel. Lebanon is hostile to Israel, because Israelis invaded Lebanon in the 1980's and occupied, yet again, another country. Kuwait, Oman, UAE do not utter a single word against Israel. Yes, Syria and Saudi Arabia are hostile to Israel, but does hostility equal annihilation. China is hostile to the US, and Britain, does that mean China wants to annhilate these countries? France is hostile to the US, do the French want to annhilate the US?

You are a dim-wit, who has to knowledge of history, geo-politics and the dynamics of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Do not stupidly look at this conflict as if it started last weekend, or that it is about firing rockets into Israel. This conflict goes back to 1967, and before to 1948.

Israel should not sit back and accept the Qassams, it should withdraw from the Palestinian terrorities, allow 2 million Palestinian refugees who live squalor, the right to return to their homeland, and end the racist, apartheid state it operates.

Israel could end this war, but it wont because it his hell-bent on systematically wiping out a race of people from the region. Israel wants all of Palestine, without Palestnians.

Sensational Headlines? You insensitive moron. If the killing of innocents is sensationlised, I welcome it, as it will demolish the Zionist case brick-by-brick and prove they are a bunch of murderous liars. And frankly, the press reporting of the conflict in the West has been censored and imbalance. Thank God for Al-Jazeera and the internet.

Why does any criticism of Israel and Zionism lead to accusations of anti-semitism? Are they above the law? Shall we not condemn them when they should be condemned? I am not afraid of them or anyone and will speak out against brutality. The old-mantra, about anti-semitism does not wash now, and people can see right through it. We. defenders and fighter of freedom, will attack Israel and the Zionists every day, every week, every month of every year to reveal their racist barbaric policy towards the Palestinians no matter how mant times, people like you accuse us of anti-semitism.

Israel is guilty of anti-semitism, towards the Palestinians, if you do not understand what I mean, get off you back-side and do some research.

(34) 2009-01-01 07:24:43

Timothy:

Liberty if your rationality were to be followed we should have just let hitler invade us and for that matter any invasion whether legal or illegal should not be fought off. Yes we fought back but because we did were we terrorists. Of course not we were defending ourselves against occupation and to keep what was rightfully ours.

For the media to try and twist things around by making it seem that freedom fighters fighting against occupation are terrorists is sickeningly obscene and an insult to anyone with an ounce of intelligence..... but then our politically motivated media do try to dumb things down for us and manipulate what we should think.

The victims here are the palestinians whose land has been taken from them, not the israelis who are the invading force...... to try and make out that rockets supposedly fired from palestinain terrority is the fault of all palestinains justifies that this is a struggle being fought by a whole nation of refugees against occupation and atempts to take more of their land.

Cats, dogs and foxes are treated better and have more rights in our coutry than the palestians have under israelis rule and yet we call ourselves civilised after we took away the land from the palestinains in the first place and created a nation of sqaulor dwellers.

(35) 2009-01-01 11:44:42

RSD:

Hamas proposes, and via the democratic election the Palestinian people support, the application of a system of law throughout "palestine" based upon that of pre-1856 "Palestine". This would deny non-Muslims equal rights and assign them to a subordinate position. Hamas explicitly believes itself to be engaged in a global existential conflict against "International Jewry" and it certainly does not accept the 1964 PLO revision of the definition of a Palestinian that would allow some "Palestinian" Jews rights. As can be seen from the victimisation of Christians in Gaza in the last 2 years it is self-evident that Christians would be subject to horrific oppression if Hamas were ever to win. The Baha'i community in "Palestine" would also be at risk as Hamas deny them any opportunity for basic human rights unless they were to convert to Islam. There are also other religious groups that would also be a risk.
If anyone considers the desmantling of Israel as desirable and legitimate in accordance with Hamas' objectives, they should put forward realistic proposals how this could be achieved. These proposals should not include condemning the Palestinians to becoming martyrs on the altar of sectarian vanity.
I personally have no problem with the 7 million Israelis being evacuated by Britain, the former Mandate Power and author of the Balfour Declaration, to the UK together with the Zionist industrial enterprises that have been forced upon Palestine. It would be of enourous benefit to UK to have such hi-tech industries located here.

(36) 2009-01-01 12:21:21

Muddy Waters:

I keep seeing headlines that Israel rejects a ceasefire.

Can anyone tell us what Hamas response to a ceasefire is?

This is important because in any conflcit it is the agressive stimulator for a response who can decide to call off their attack and offer terms for a ceasefire.

That side is Hamas who have continued to fire rockets at Israel. So, when are they going to offer ceasefire terms?

(37) 2009-01-01 12:50:11

Muddy Waters:

I offer you this in support of the ceasefire logic:

"A draft UN resolution put forward by Egypt and Libya failed after the US and UK complained that it called on Israel to ends its air assaults but made no mention of Hamas rocket attacks against Israel, which they say started the latest hostilities. "

BBC

Thus demonstrating that a call for a ceasefire cannot be one-sided.

(38) 2009-01-01 12:56:10

Tomthy:

Muddy waters you are indicative of the sick logic that exists amongst those that support the killing of innocent civilians.

Killing innocent civilians demands a ceasefire.... anything less and you cease to be worthy of the name civilised and should be termed barbarian but even that would be being unfair to barbarians....... MURDER IS WRONG IN ANY COUNTRY ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD... comprende.

Everyone knows what is really going on here and that is attempt to clear gaza and the west bank of all signs of palestinian lives, it make take many years but that is what the aim is of israel and their supporters is.

(39) 2009-01-01 14:34:48

Muddy Waters:

— Tomthy

(I hope MPAC UK will permit a reply, even if you won't like it. Open debate is healthy.)

Civilian casualties are of course a tragedy and we can all grieve for the loss but there are always civilian casualties in war. What is taking place is NOT murder since murder requires a malice and plan to kill. There are no plans to kill innocent Palestinians and no plan to wipe out a Palestinian population. Israel could do this quite easily with its fire power. This is just rhetoric and hyperbole that can't be substantiated by facts. The target is obviously Hamas and borne out by 80% of deaths being recorded as Hamas militants.

Study the Geneva Conventions on War and you will find it perfectly legitimate for Israel to attack Hamas as enemy combatants - and equally legal for Hamas to attack the IDF.

Hamas firing rockets at Israeli towns IS attempted murder because they are deliberately targetting civilians with the aim to kill. You cannot hide behind the number actually killed being a low number. Remember what you said "MURDER IS WRONG IN ANY COUNTRY ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD". You either believe that is acceptable for both sides or you don't genuinely mean it.

I am not making any apology for Israel's responses but realise its a RESPONSE to Hamas attacks by rocket.

This idea of clearing Palestinian from West Bank and Gaza doesn't reflect well on anyone who states this untruth because there is absolutely no evidence in action or policy. This would not pass the Conventions on what constitutes Genocide.

(40) 2009-01-01 16:57:43

Timothy:

"Civilian casualties are of course a tragedy and we can all grieve for the loss but there are always civilian casualties in war".

Muddy-water if you read the geneva convention you will note that civilian casualties have to be minimised which is what clearly has not happended. I do not accept innocent casualities as being an inevitability of war (as this seems to be only the case when they are palestinian) but civilian casualties are murdered if there are no attempts to minise their death.

Israel with its murderous alquaeda style policy is not willing to allow a ceasefire even for humanitarian aid......I call that murder and barbarism.

You are obviouly not impartial as you call Isreali Offensive Force -IDF. You cannot invade someone elses home then say that you are defending your own home (un convention on freedom fighters) as it is clearly not yours. You cannot try to defend to land you have stolen but only go on the offensive and try to steal more land by murdering its inhabitants.

"Hamas firing rockets at Israeli towns IS attempted murder because they are deliberately targetting civilians with the aim to kill".

Obviously you seem to want to make people think that hamas or whoever is responsible for firing rockets to defend their homeland is aiming at a visible target which is clearly not the case as israel has built a wall around palestnian homes. The israeli air offensive is cleraly able to see their targets.

The idea that Isreal can kill so many innocent people makes Israeli policy akin to the alquaeda ideology whereby innocent civilians are murdered. It is called collective punishment and being murdered simply for being a palestinain or even because you may have voted for hamas.

....and by the way you have absolutely no evidence of proof for anything you are claiming.

(41) 2009-01-01 18:32:52

Zion must be defeated.:

What can I say; I have no more decent words of condemnation. The Arab world needs to synthesize into one coordinated voice but their leader’s remains an obstacle. We will see many more deaths before we see the light of day. There can be no peace as long as Zionist remain in that region of Palestinian territory.

(42) 2009-01-01 23:16:56

Henry:

RSD, Why do you not start talking from your mouth, instead of the hole between your buttocks!

Palestinians do not even have the rights of a subordinate. Do you accept that?

Hamas views it's conflict with International Zionism, not International Jewry, because it created, and supports the occupation and the brutality of the current Israeli state terror machine.

Hamas, contrary to what, Zionist media whores report, peddle and publish are not anti-Jewish, or anti-semitic.

The Zionist psycho-polotico dogs even prevent Jews who are against the occupation, and there are many of them, from appearing in the media in fear of criticism. And when, these voices do manage to navigate around the Zionist labyrinthine- like corridors, they are often accused of being an anti-semite. But this excuse is heading towards paralysis as global opinion slowly turns. Hamas, we, are anti-zionist, and against the foreign colonial forces that occupy Palestine. Surely you must understand the distinction between Judaism and Zionsim!

Past and current evidence also reveal the Zionist/Ultra-Orthdox two-dimensial rabbinal aggression, extends to Messianic Jews as well. Orthodox jews burning christian holy books has become a favourite past-time in Israel. Followers of Abyssinian strands of Jewry have also suffered prejudice. And considering the self-styled Children of Israel, subscribe to the delusional dreamy idea of being the 'chosen people' to be affirmed later by THEIR messiah, I think every religion in the world, ancient or new age are at risk from these orthodox thugs.

Zio-pshycho terror has also affected Palestinian Christians, where Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, has become a place of eerie disquite and horror. This adds further weight to the argument, that the state of Israel is racist, apartheidic, islamophobic and christianomic.

RSD, you should try not to add honour, respectability, and legitimacy to the Zionist killing spree by justifiying the need for it to exist unilateraly, fuelled by past experience at the hand of the Nazis.

Your attempts are very pitiful.

The Palestinians, PLO, or Hamas, were not responsibile for the holocaust! You need to put aside you emotive outbursts, and accept the fact, the Israeli-Zio terror structure cannot, and will not survive as a colonial occupying force.

Muddy Water, you need to wash that Zionist odor coming from your carcass. When will you realise this conflict did not begin last weekend, or last month, or when you want it to start. It goes back decades, and is not about Hamas firng rockers inot Israel. You really need to broaden you horizons and not be fooled by the powerful Zionist media lobby.

This particlur attack WAS planned by Israel 6 months, and is partly about blatant electioneering by rival fractions seeking to attract the Zionist/Orthodox vote
in the Febuary elections. Had Hamas not fired any rockets into Israel, the state of Israel would have had a military adventure in Gaza anway, under the old chestnut excuse 'Defensive Operations'. And when Palestinians defend themselves it is deemed as terror

Hamas are responding to years and years of Israeli terror and occupation. And are you are really stupid enough to believe Israel follows the Geneva Convention. The state of Israel has flouted International law and countless UN resolutions for an eternity. And if Zionism does not have a systematic plan to wipe all trace of Palestinians from Palestine, study the map of Palestine before 1948, and the map of Palestine NOW. If you are too lazy to do that, study the map on the top of the MPAC homepage!

(43) 2009-01-02 05:20:18

Henry:

(44) 2009-01-02 05:23:09

SilverLJ:

— Zion must be defeated.

What can I say; I have no more decent words of condemnation. The Western world needs to synthesize into one coordinated voice but their leader’s remains an obstacle. We will see many more deaths before we see the light of day. There can be no peace as long as HAMAS remain in that region of Palestinian territory.

(45) 2009-01-02 10:37:29

SilverLJ:

— Zion must be defeated.

(46) 2009-01-02 10:40:01

shan:

There shall be no peace or justice for the people of palestine until the occupation is ended.
Until then we can come up with as many solutions as we want, peace shall only prevail once the occuption is ended.
As for RSD he is a committed zionist who always blames the victims or goes back centuries to placate israeli crimes of here and now.

(47) 2009-01-02 11:36:10

RSD:

I recall the halcyon days when Muslims, Jews and Christians crossed back and forth over the green lines to work, hospitals, airport, shops etc without checkpoints and walls.
I sat next to a Palestinian young man on the plane who was returning to get married. Between us we accomodated the wedding dress that he had bought in Paris for his bride. In front of us were Hassidic Jews bearing Torah scrolls. No one cared if you were Jewish, Christian or Muslim. We were just people travelling to the same destination and trying to make it as comfortable for each other as possible.
I remember getting the bus from Jewish Jerusalem to Muslim Jericho for a day out. saw the IDF only once as 4 of them passed by in a jeep. Got lost and asked a Palestinian policemen for help. Had coffee and watched the men play sheshbesh in the afternoon. Fell into conversation with a Palestinian man at the bus stop who could speak German and shared our experiences of being Gastarbeiters in Germany.
All of this normality happened during the bloody occupation in the mid-1980's.
What I see today is a disaster for everyone. None of the stupidity of Fatah or Hamas has saved the good parts for the Palestinians and has wasted the what good-will the Irsaelis had for the Palestinians. Clearly these calls for war and revenge can produce only misery for everyone. And what for? So some alleged Muslims can sate their own sense of inadequacy.

(48) 2009-01-02 12:48:15

slickafoe:

Zionism will be defeated by Gods permission,the banner of Truth will rise again.I pray that I am around to share in the rejoicing.InsahAllah

(49) 2009-01-02 15:30:21

Timothy:

RSD I think you live in a world where you wish that the jewish people of Israel wanted peace and if this were to happen then all of what you have said would be part of everyday life.

Unfortunately the jewish people of Israel do not want peace but want more and more of palestinian land and are even prepared to support their government in murdering palestinians to achieve their aim as they see themselves as god's chosen race and have therefore more rights than everyone else.... we all know what thinking like this did for hitler and the nazis.

(50) 2009-01-02 17:13:45

seb:

— Zion must be defeated.

How's this for starters : zionazis, ziofascists, ziokillers, ziomurder, zio****ers. Further contributions welcome.

(51) 2009-01-02 20:58:50

Henry:

Is is possible for the Israeli-Judea followers to put aside their Zionist leanings and exercise judgment on moralistic level???

(52) 2009-01-03 07:12:38

Henry:

— SilverLJ

— Zion must be defeated.

You have a very short memory when it suits you. Hamas originated from the indigenous people of Palestine. They BELONG to that region. And seen as they are democrati- cally elected, are you going to sustain the bloodshed by erasing the whole Hamas political structure. Well, I have a very long memory- The blood thirsty Loshon HaRah speaking, Zio-Politico dogs are already doing that.

The Torah I read certainly doesn't allow this behavior

(53) 2009-01-03 07:30:51

shan:

What we are seeing is good old dark ages seige and attack warefare, the people of gaza have been under a very tight seige for the last 18 months,the attackers think the people have lost the will to resist so they attack.
To say israelis do not terrorise and kill civillians is a sick joke, what do you think happens when you drop a 1000lb bomb on the most densely populated place on earth.
For those who say the government of palestine is firing missiles indiscriminatly i am sure they will be more than willig to accept guided misiles-attack planes-helicopters-tanks and ships.
so how about letting the palestinians arm themselves so that we have a level playing field to judge them both, if that is too much for those israel supporters then do not lecture the victims.

(54) 2009-01-03 10:36:06

markuk:

— shan

Why would Israel want to let palestine arm themselves you IDIOT.
Are you a bit simple in the head shan? if Israel really wanted to wipe out civilliand then the would have killed every person in palestine by now.
Why is it ok for you that muslims use muslims as human sheilds.
Why is it ok for you for muslims to send rockets into a country to try and kill non muslims.
If palestinians dont turn on hamas then what do they expect.

(55) 2009-01-03 12:18:31

Joachim Walpepper:

"Muddy-water if you read the geneva convention you will note that

civilian casualties have to be minimised which is what clearly has

not happended. I do not accept innocent casualities as being an

inevitability of war (as this seems to be only the case when they

are palestinian) but civilian casualties are murdered if there are

no attempts to minise their death."

The placing of military infrastructure amongst the civilian

population, especially missile dumps and weapons stores is ALSO

against the Geneva Convention. There is a right to attack enemy

combatants (Hamas) hwrever they are and Israel has employed text

messaging and leaflets to warn the civilians of an impending

attack.

Hamas have ONLY fired rockets at civilians and yet you ignore this

as a war crime.

Are MPAC UK so blinded by something they can't even acknowledge

some very basic logic.

"This was planned six months ago" - so what? You imply that six

months ago Israel had decided to make this attack regardless of the

situation on the ground? How were they to predict that as soon as

the ceasefire was declared over then Hamas would launch 80 rockets

a day. In fact it was close that Egypt would persuade Hamas not to

do that and extend the ceasefire. WHat Israel planned was a

contingency.

(Do MPAC UK ever publish reasonably argued responses that

contradict the overwhelming theme here - or are MPAC UK scared of

debate with people who don't scream back with absurdities?)

(56) 2009-01-03 12:30:14

Billy Pilgrim:

— shan

Good point, well made.

(57) 2009-01-03 13:42:59

SilverLJ:

— Billy Pilgrim

Good point, well made.

— shan

Sadly, this is not a good point because if I re-write it we get an entirely different and equally valid point of view so who is right?

"What we are seeing is good old dark ages siege and attack warfare, the people of Israel have been under a very tight siege for the last 18 months, the attackers think the people have lost the will to resist so they attack. To say Palestinians do not terrorise and kill civilians is a sick joke, what do you think happens when you drop a rocket on the most densely populated place on earth.
For those who say the government of Israel is bombing in a focused way I am sure they will be more than willing to accept mortars and rockets. So how about letting the Israelis arm themselves so that we have a level playing field to judge them both, if that is too much for those Palestinian supporters then do not lecture the victims.

(58) 2009-01-03 15:25:50

shan:

markuk the racist bigot rears his head from the gutter of filth in support of mass murdering israelis just about says it all.
I know people like you wish to beat on unarmed people,so you supporting israelis in their actions shows the cowardice of racists and bigots.
What is the matter does fighting on a equal level scare you.

(59) 2009-01-03 15:29:31

SilverLJ:

— Henry

— SilverLJ

You have a very short memory when it suits you. Hamas originated from the indigenous people of Palestine. They BELONG to that region. And seen as they are democratically elected, are you going to sustain the bloodshed by erasing the whole Hamas political structure. Well, I have a very long memory- The blood thirsty Loshon HaRah speaking, Zio-Politico dogs are already doing that.

The Torah I read certainly doesn't allow this behavior

— Zion must be defeated.

I may have a short memory but you have a selective one. The Jews have lived in this area for millennia and so have many other peoples but they were driven out or exiled or oppressed by Muslim invaders after the time of Mohammed. So who has a right to this land?

Just because HAMAS arose out of the Palestinian people or because they were elected do not absolve it from crimes against humanity it has committed in just the same way the Israeli parties arose out of the people cannot free them from blame either.

(60) 2009-01-03 15:37:00

Johnathan Abdullah:

"The placing of military infrastructure amongst the civilian population, especially missile dumps and weapons stores is ALSO against the Geneva Convention. There is a right to attack enemy".

Are you out of your tiny trash filled mind Joachim walnut where is your proof. Since when did children become the enemy expect to savage rogue criminal states that have no respect for international law and yet expect others to abide by the same law.

The people of the world will speak and be heard down with war criminals!!! Down with Israels al'qaeda.

(61) 2009-01-03 16:46:27

shan:

silverlj we know deceit is your main weapon of p.r but when using such deceit make sure its on your own website.
the muslim invaders drove out or exiled jews, at least have some shame when using such lies or does the word shame have no meaning to you.
The evil that the palestinians have endured for 60 years shows who the land belongs to, the sephardi jews have lived in palestine and do so today, it is mass murdering zionist ashkenazis who have invaded and occupied palestine.
until the occupation is not ended peace will not prevail, the slaughter in palestine only beckons the days when justice shall be done.

(62) 2009-01-03 17:05:26

Mick:

“The Arab states succeeded in scattering the Palestinian
people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as
a unified people until the states of the world did so, and this is regrettable.”
-- Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas), from the official journal of
the PLO, Falastin el-Thawra (“What We Have Learned and What We
Should Do”), Beirut, March 1976.

(63) 2009-01-03 17:09:49

Mick:

Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) wrote an article in March 1976 in
Falastin al-Thawra, the official journal of the PLO in Beirut: “The
Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the
Zionist tyranny, but instead they abandoned them, forced them to
emigrate and to leave their homeland, imposed upon them a political
and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the
ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe.”
As Abu Mazen alluded, it was in large part due to threats and fearmongering
from Arab leaders that some 700,000 Arabs fled Israel in
1948 when the new state was invaded by Arab armies. Ever since, the
growing refugee population, now around 4 million by UN estimates,
has been corralled into squalid camps scattered across the Middle East
- in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Gaza, and the West Bank.
In 1950, the UN set up the United Nations Relief and Works
Agency as a temporary relief effort for Palestinian refugees. Former
UNRWA director Ralph Galloway stated eight years later that, “the
Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to
keep it as an open sore, as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders do
not give a damn whether Arab refugees live or die. The only thing that
has changed since [1949] is the number of Palestinians cooped up in
these prison camps.”

(64) 2009-01-03 17:14:35

Billy Pilgrim:

Sadly, this is not a good point because if I re-write it we get an entirely different and equally valid point of view so who is right?

What we are seeing is good old dark ages siege and attack warfare, the people of Israel have been under a very tight siege for the last 18 months, the attackers think the people have lost the will to resist so they attack. To say Palestinians do not terrorise and kill civilians is a sick joke, what do you think happens when you drop a rocket on the most densely populated place on earth.
For those who say the government of Israel is bombing in a focused way I am sure they will be more than willing to accept mortars and rockets. So how about letting the Israelis arm themselves so that we have a level playing field to judge them both, if that is too much for those Palestinian supporters then do not lecture the victims.

— SilverLJ

Sorry don't understand your logic - for example:

1.As Shan says if HAMAS had the mechanisms to target military targets - i.e. satellite guided bombs and/or F16 planes no doubt they would - but they have to make do with crappy rockets some of which are made out of lamposts.

2. HAMAS are not firing on the most densely populated place on earth as the casualty rates show.

3.The Israelis are armed with cutting edge military hardware.

4. The best analogy I can think of is if in response to the Birmingham and Guildford bombings in the 70's the UK government decided to shell Catholic areas of Belfast - would you consider that proportionate.

5. This is an attempt to change the realpolitic before Obama comes to power.

6. I am no fan of the HAMAS ideology but as Shan states dropping massive bombs on an area more densely populated than Mexico City is hardly in the spirit or indeed the letter of the Geneva Convention.

7. What's with your name - are you a judge of the Court of Appeal?

(65) 2009-01-03 17:34:52

madness:

The Israeli's are attacking mosques and killing worshippers. Does that mean that Synangogues are legitamate targets

(66) 2009-01-03 18:54:56

penelope:

if the pakistanis are going to try and adopt british names such as timothy and henry, they need to improve their colloquial english somewhat.

perhaps they should have the courage of their convictions and rush out to Gaza?

on the other hand, they may not get a good signal there on their mobiles and there may be zionists about..

ok, forget it.

(67) 2009-01-03 23:26:37

A Supplication:

O Rabil A'lameen, O Akramal Akrameen, Owner of the Heavens and the Earth, O Majestic Soverign, those who believe in your Oneness, those that have sincere marks of prostration on their foreheads and dedicate their purpose, their living and their dying to you, your worship and submission are being slaughtered, oppressed and murdered for no other reason but that they rose the flag of Shahadah over the Prophetic Land and were chosen and trusted because of their Emaan, by the believers in Gaza to lead, protect and guide them to dignity, honour, freedom and justice.

Oh Rab, with tears in our eyes and heavy hearts we implore and beg you to guard them in their hour of need, to aid those who stand firm in faith against the aggressors, to fill their hearts with strength, courage and tawakul and to bestow martyrdom on those that give their today for our Ummah's tommorrow. O Lord of the Worlds, Master of the Universe shake the land beneath the feet and the sky above the enemy, fill their souls with fear and depression and cause them to fail in the mischief and transgression that they perpetuate on your Earth. O Lord in your Grace and by Your Will when our brothers in Gaza raise their hands and put their faith in you and beg your assistance, accept their du'as and fulfill the promise as You did for our predeccessors in the Battle of Badr, when You state in Surah Al-Anfal;

'Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: “I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks. Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts, (in any case) there is no help except from Allah: and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.' (Al-Qu'an 8: 9-10)

Ameen! Please say Ameen.

(68) 2009-01-03 23:51:39

Muhamed Yaqub:

The following is a letter delivered to the mosque imams:

Re: Gaza Crisis

Assalmu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu,

Dear respected Imam’s,

May this message reach you while you are in the best state of health and Iman and may Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala preserve you. We write to you as your brothers in this blessed Deen and members of Hizb ut-Tahrir in this time of crisis that has befallen our brothers and sisters in Palestine. As we both witness the murder and carnage brought upon our Ummah by the Israeli aggressors we share heartache and anger felt by the Ummah around the globe. People in this time of crisis will be looking for direction and guidance from Imam’s and community leaders of how to respond to the situation. In this light we would like to share some of our views for you to consider in your Khutba this coming week. We hope it is a useful source of thought and reflection and will add to the efforts you are already making.

• The Muslim Ummah is one body and when one parts of it aches, the rest responds as Nu’man bin Bashir reported Allah’s Messenger (saw) saying, “The similitude of believers in regard to mutual love, affection, fellow-feeling is that of one body, when any limb of it aches, the whole body aches, because of sleeplessness and fever.”
• Although these attacks are unbearable, the Muslims must not resort to any violence as this will give more reasons for the media to attack Islam and Muslims as they have been doing so.
• At this time of need the Muslims of Gaza are desperate for our aid and we must help them in this regard – but let us hold no illusion that aid will ever stop the slaughter, aggression and occupation.
• It is a mistake to appeal to the enemy and their British and US sponsors hoping they will ease their hostility; rather it is the duty of our Muslim rulers to defend Muslims.
• It is critical that we lay the blame squarely at the right doorstep as Muslims. Israel’s first line of defence has always been and continues to be our treacherous rulers.
• They have all the means and capability to immediately stop the Israeli aggressors but they refuse to do so. They can stop the oil, withhold the billions lent to bailing western banks or most importantly release the armies.
• They do not fear the account with Allah (swt), but we must make them fear that WE, the Ummah of Rasulullah, will bring them to account – ‘the best Jihad is the word of truth to the tyrant ruler…’

Hizb ut-Tahrir is mobilising the voices of the Ummah globally and locally hoping to unify the message and bring to account those who have failed the Muslims even though they have the full capability to stop the aggressors, their murder and occupation. With this in mind we will be holding a Demonstration titled: Call on the Arab Armies to Defend Gaza, on Sunday 4th January 2009 2pm, marching from Paddington Green (nearest underground – Edgware Road Station) to Marble Arch. We believe it is a duty on us all to raise this voice as loud as possible and unify our call as an Ummah.

These are some of our thoughts; we hope that this will be an opportunity for us to sit and discuss and increase our brotherhood. May Allah subhanahu wata’ala accept our efforts and make our foothold firm, whilst showering those suffering with His Mercy Insha’Allah. Ameen.

Members of Hizb ut-Tahrir Tower Hamlets

(69) 2009-01-04 03:19:23

Henry:

Markuk, you clearly have zero knowledge on Israeli military operations and lack an historical and religious perspective. If the Israeli's wiped out the whole of Palestine only through army adventures, they would almost certainly feel the wrath of the EU, Russian, China, and the Arab nations. So it has put in a long-term strategy to achieve this through a combination of military action and domestic legislation, such as the Law of Return passed in 1950, and the expansion of settlements. Cunningly, Israel fulfills it objective of ridding Palestinians from Palestine through a cloak of legitimacy, whilst not facing further isolation and near-certain sanctions from the global community. The zio-ortho-rabbi thugs who have a significant majority in the Knesset believe and continue to spread in their political manifesto the fantasy, that as God's chosen people, God has bewstowed the land Israel exclusively unto them. And has long as they hold to this absurd ideaology, and recieve American support, Israeli state terror will continue.

Muslim using muslim as human shields? You know nothing about history and the Israel PR machine. The mantra of an 'armed man hiding behind a civilian' is a classic cliche used by many powers to carry out their brutality. The Nazis used this expression when they carried out their killing sprees, as did the Americans in Vietnam and later Milosevic in Serbia.

Do you honestly think Hamas, would endanger the lives of the very people who voted for them. Or are you insulting the intelligence of millions of Palestinians by claiming they asked for it when they elected Hamas? Something, which Adolf Hitler said about the Germanic people!

Penelope, (or are you Monstrous Melanie Philips during daylight), I am not a Pakistani, and would be proud if I were a Pakistani and I do not differentiate on the grounds of race, like Zionist-licking xenophobes like you.

And, seen as you cannot put a telling contribtion on this forum, why don't your crawl back under that rock you came from, and take with you those murderous, vulgar, Talmud-reading tosspot, zio-fascist wolves with you.

If we went to Gaza, to help Palistnians, the Zio terror killing machine will slay us all, like they murdered four United Nations Observers in July 26, 2006, like they killed Rachel Corrie, and Tom Hundall who was killed whilst protecting children from artillery.

Why don't we have a contest where a Palistinian is allowed to fight a zionist, one-on-one, hand-by-hand, then we will see who has the courage of his/her conviction. You know very well, the Zionist will lose. The state of Israel know that, that's why they rely on American military. Very brave?

The biggest cowards in the world are the Zion-Israeli thugs!

Can you muster enough intelligentsia to answer the following questions?

1. Do you condone the murder of civilan's including children by the state of Israel and where does the Torah allow this?

2. Does the Torah allow the suffering, oppression, and persecution of another group of people?

3. Do you accept the fact that State of Israel was established on a terror mandate by your pin-ups, Zvi Leumi Irgun? Betar? Stern? Haganah? The racist bantering of Golda Meir, Ben Gurion, Netanyahu, Ashkenazi,Barak? The butchers,Begin,Dayan,Sharon,Harel?

(70) 2009-01-04 03:34:28

Henry:

(71) 2009-01-04 03:42:48

shlemazl:

Henry,

Can anyone "muster enough intelligentsia" to answer you questions in the way that you can understand? I don't think so.

(72) 2009-01-04 04:12:20

penelope:

what henry - not out there yet fighting the zionist foe with your state-of-the-art pay-as-you-go nokia with cheap weekend messaging? shame on you!

I do understand that you are terrified of Melanie Philips - and with good reason. Flee while you can!!

(73) 2009-01-04 12:23:54

Liberty:

And may all those who support Hizb ut-Tahrir attend their demonstration today in order that they may be filmed and identified.

(74) 2009-01-04 13:17:36

Timothy:

— penelope

Why does someones nationality have to be an issue pen? Do you have a problem with racism? I think so just like israelis do.

Sure I'll be a pakistani if you want me to as I feel no shame in saying so.

So as a zionist you now want to have a go at killing pakistanis as well by encouraging them to go to palestine. Is there no end to war hungry and blood thirsty israelis like you.

This is a free coutnry and if pakistanis want to adopt british names then they are free to do so just as we allow you to say what you would like and take any name you would like.

(75) 2009-01-04 13:25:12

RSD:

Where was the contrition when Palestinians and their allies gunned down Jews at prayer? Yes it's awful that people at prayer should be killed and injured but sadly the Israelis do not have monopoly on this.
Hamas wanted war and by electing them to government it was inevitable. Any organisation that bases its aims on the most extreme interpretation of the Quran and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (a publication banned in UK) has nowhere else to go.
So where were the Friends of Palestine when they needed advice about the consequences of voting for Hamas?
Where have been the demonstrations in Gaza calling upon Hamas to work for peace and a 2 state solution?
Absent in both cases!

(76) 2009-01-04 16:05:21

AL:

If all of london was taken over by a foreign people and all londeners were kicked out of their homes and shoved into camps near the river thames what would the majority do. Would they just say we'll have to spend the rest of our lvies camping by the river thames or would they fight back?

There is no country in the world today that would allow a foreign people to come into their country and take over their land and their homes. What would they do when this foreign people then tried stop them from receiving medicine and food and water and electricity for them their families and their children. Would they then allow this foreign occupation to lvie in peace. This is no people in any country that would let them live in peace.

Why should muslims in palestine be different???

andswer because the supporters of israel in the media think that they should and yet they would fight back to the hilt if they and their families were threatened by a foreign invading force.

That is what happened against hitler.

(77) 2009-01-04 18:45:49

markuk:

No to 1 and 3. Cant answer 2 seeing as i havent read the torah.

(78) 2009-01-04 18:55:24

saeedabasi:

Wounded and blood riddled Gaza is a slap in the face of our present global civilization. Israel can be stopped in a day if the entire Muslim Ummah decides to spark its collective and strong practical rage on the tinny Israeli region. I appeal all of you to help the helpless Palestinians; this is time to set up international think tank for Muslims so we can fight our war on social, diplomatic and global fronts too. ANYBODY HELP AND COOPERATE ME TO SET UP AN INTERNATIONAL MUSLIM THINK TANK? Please save Gaza, save the Palestine and save all of the Muslim Ummah.

(79) 2009-01-04 19:38:26

John2:

Just a question foir information here.

Why dont the Egyptians just open their border with Gaza, evacuate the Palistinians and then close the border again?

John

(80) 2009-01-04 20:14:00

peaceful74:

Henri,
please try to participate on the discussions going on YouTube when you try to watch clips about Gaza; there is a ferocious attack on Islam and palestine. there are few knowledgeable people like you participating.

(81) 2009-01-04 21:07:22

Anon:

You should add a link to this report of a mass protest against the Israeli government's assault on Gaza:

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/1231029668

(82) 2009-01-04 22:38:58

Henry:

Penelope, the scum bag who has the intelligent span of a celery. I sense a visceral anger on your behalf. Truth hurts does it! Why dont you have your pain soothed by an orange-faced zio-con twit from Hollywood. Or a colorless, sweaty, sinat chinam-chanting zionist from Golders Green. You really should adopt another name.

Rats like you are not even worthy of being the dust under one's shoes. Sitting 10 hours a day studying Yeshivas, whilst all the time speaking wih an empahsis on the second syllabul, making you sound like you have a wind pipe stuffed up your backside, propagating racist, islamophobic, and aparthedic filth.

The trouble with zionists such as yourself, you simply cannot survive without your lapdog Americans friend. "Hey Mr Bush, come and clean out my anal cavities"

"Hey Jew, if you want 50 F16 jets to kill some children in Palestine, I want you to do to me, what that Jew Monica Lewinsky did to Bill Clinton."

"Thats ok Mr. President, that is part of my night job"

Yes, I am terrified of Melanie Philips. I mean, that look can kill anyone.

She proves, the saying "If Looks could kill" actually carries meaning. Since you are her coward cheerleader, you have to inform her, that she has taken her fascination with Lord of the Rings a bit too serious, and the make-up has to go. I mean she is even frightening children on the street.

Doh, How stupid of me! That is her real face. Don't worry, tell her that we at MPACUK will have a whip-around for her to have a face-lift, and a brain transplant for YOU.

Liberty, every time you post a comment, you ignorance shines brighter, and makes Penelope look clever. Hizb-Tahrir, are NOT a banned organisation in this country. And if you went to a HT rally, you would notice members don't hide their face's

peaceful74. I have added numerous postings on zionist-owned youtube, sadly, they never get published because for reasons I have mentioned before.

But, the Palestinians will survive this onslaught, like many before them, and one day, I repeat, one day, they will get their Freedom!

(83) 2009-01-05 04:13:03

Henry:

(84) 2009-01-05 04:14:11

Henry:

Penelope the banal celery, still waiting for your answers to my questions

(85) 2009-01-05 04:23:27

Henry:

Just a question foir information here.

Why don't the Egyptians just open their border with Gaza, evacuate the Palistinians and then close the border again?

John

— John2

That is exactly what Israel wants. A Palestine without Palestinians. Currently, there are already over 2 million homeless indigenous Palestinians living in ram shackle refugee camps outisde the border area of Palestine, either exiled, or forced to leave. They are refused to return to their homeland by the Zio-Israeli state, who fear this will affect the majority Jewish demographics, which they aspire to sustain.

(86) 2009-01-05 04:43:17

Daniel:

What is happening in Gaza is tragic, truly sad and undoubtedly many innocent civilians are dying. However what is happening in Gaza is not a Genocide. The reason for this is as follows - the term Genocide has a very specific definition. This is “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group”. Although calling the Israeli military action a Genocide may seem a clever tactic in the short term, in the long term using the term genocide for every conflict (where the conflict does not meet the criteria set out in the definition) desensitises the word. This means that when a real Genocide takes place, for example in Kosovo, the word will no longer carry the same meaning and as a result does a disservice to the victims of such a Genocide, irrespective of their national, racial, political, or cultural group.

(87) 2009-01-05 11:27:52

SilverLJ:

Penelope, the scum bag who has the intelligent span of a celery. I sense a visceral anger on your behalf. Truth hurts does it! Why don't you have your pain soothed by an orange-faced zio-con twit from Hollywood. Or a colorless, sweaty, sinat chinam-chanting zionist from Golders Green. You really should adopt another name.

Rats like you are not even worthy of being the dust under one's shoes. Sitting 10 hours a day studying Yeshivas, whilst all the time speaking wih an empahsis on the second syllabul, making you sound like you have a wind pipe stuffed up your backside, propagating racist, islamophobic, and aparthedic filth.

— Henry

Thank you Henry, this tells me and the world all we want to know about Muslims like you: hate-filled, bigoted, shallow in thinking, brainwashed, ignorant and your only answer to anything you don't like is to use abuse. Perhaps you should read Qu'ran 5.7 where we read "do not let your hatred of other men to turn you away from justice. Deal justly, that is nearer to true piety"

You have shown no piety and no kindness only hate.

(88) 2009-01-05 12:34:34

Liberty:

'Henry'; your abusive rantings are indicative of a religious bigot incapable of reasoned discussion and, although bordering on mania, your hate-filled diatribe is derisory.

(89) 2009-01-05 12:58:05

Shamsur:

I have said time and again that the only reason for Israeli might in the region is because of the support from America.

With the size of the Muslim world Israel should not have lasted more than five minutes let alone 60 years.

Corrupt regimes in the middle east are to blame as they are a*** lickers of the USA.

many arab representatives have come on air to speak about the israeli atrocities, but notice how they all give you the feeling they enjoy hamas taking a battering. This is because they fear if similar parties came to power in their own countries, they would almost certainly have their heads chopped off.

I think these hypocrites could all do with a Hamas in their governments.

Going back to the American suport of Israel, that will continue since the American government is surrounded by zionists and dual nationality Isreali/Americans. Eg. Richard Perle the zionist swine.

(90) 2009-01-05 13:02:59

LethalNite:

All Muslims should support and do support Hamas in this holocaust on the innocents of Gaza as perpetrated by the evil Zionists. Oh Muslims look how they twist words and justify the murder of innocent children. They carry out the killing intentionally and willingly and then blame Hamas.

(91) 2009-01-05 15:54:53

Sultan (in Oxford):

Assalaam alaikum and Greetings

How convenient, that the israeli supporters are blaming HAMAS for all the troubles in the Israeli/Gazan borders.

Conveniently forgetting that Israel was supporting and funding HAMAS as an alternative to the PLO, in the 1970s, to actively de-stabilise the Palestinian region.

Didn't seem to worry the Israeli's in supporting a "terrorist organisation" then, when it served the Israeli interests against the PLO.

Now the same organisation (HAMAS) is seen as Israeli's enemy, because the Israelis no longer have any use for them anymore and they (HAMAS) are actually threatening Israel's existance.

And what with ?. "Kassam Rockets" which are no more than unguided fireworks in comparison to the laser guided-missiles loaded on F16 fighter planes, or unmanned drones.

Seems to me that the USA and Israel have a lot in common with their tactics.

USA Then: actively supporting and funding the taliban regime against the soviets. Taliban : the good guys.

Israel Then: actively supporting and funding Hamas regime against the PLO, to de-stabalise the region. Hamas : the good guys.

USA now : At war with the Taliban "terrorists"
Israel now : At war with the HAMAS "terrorists".

You have to acknowledge their double standards.

NOTE how Israel and the USA are making statements that these kassam ("jihadi") rockets are being supplied by IRAN. Effectively setting up IRAN into the front picture, so that they have an excuse to invade IRAN later on.

You know, in the present situation, all Muslim Leaders have to do is to make a 'simple' statement that they will mass their Muslim armies near the region if Israel does not stop its aggression in GAZA. And that they are not afraid of the consequences. We ordinary Muslims will support them.

Israel and the USA will go ballistic.

Such a statement from Muslim nations (with the potential of igniting 3rd world war as Israel, being a rouge state, will seek to use nuclear weapons) will immediately force the world leaders to come together and FORCE Israel to stop its alleged 'defensive' action in GAZA.

It will put solving the Palestine issue as the number one priority on the World Leaders list.

But will any Muslim countries do this ? No.

Not while our leaders sit in their comfy seats, and amass monies. Or support the Palestinians with gestures of funds here and there. Certainly, not while Muslim nations are too dependent upon the USA (and the West) for food, medicines, technology, stocks, shares, etc, etc. because we Muslims have been concentrating on perfecting our 5-pillars and neglecting our other duties to progress in medicine, technology, education, etc for the benefit of mankind (unlike our predecessors who excelled in these fields in the "Golden Age" of Islam)

So, nothing will get done apart from a few angry words from Muslims. Words which will eventually fade way within a few months time.

Ordinary Muslims know that each Muslim Country will be 'sent back to the stone ages' one by one, for daring to speak up against USA or Israel under the pretext of "war on terror".

Certainly IRAN, PAKISTAN, SYRIA, SAUDIA ARABIA are on the list.

What I fear is that when the time finally comes when Muslims do decide to get together (owing to their miserable condition), it will be too late. We will have no means to fight back and are too poor/weak to do so, as we will be econimically bankrupt.

Perhaps, that beating is what is required to wake us all up. When the only thing we have left is our dignity, and our Islamic beliefs and nothing else.

A bit like the Palestinians.

Wasalaams

(92) 2009-01-05 16:08:25

slickafoe:

'Henry'; your abusive rantings are indicative of a religious bigot incapable of reasoned discussion and, although bordering on mania, your hate-filled diatribe is derisory.

— Liberty

when the truth hits home it is no wonder that you zionist supporters start seething,quite rightly so,for you do not have the intellect to counter such valliant and truthful fact based statements made by the Muslims on here.

You want to brush the truth under the carpet,the tactics that many evil hearted IsraHell supporters use.

The normal method would be to reason with you.Do you not see the innocent civillian deaths of women and children taking place,do you not pain (like us)when you see the the totally disproportionate massacres taking place, Hamas were firing rockets at Israel as a protest at the evil blockade and human rights abusesby IsraHell,no other country in the world has violated more UN resolutions and the geneva conventions, I urge you to start supporting the palestinians or get ready for the WRATH of the ONE TRUE LORD.ALLAH(swt)

(93) 2009-01-05 16:11:35

Henry:

SilverLJ, it is blindingly obvious you have not paid an iota of attention to any of the posts I have delivered here. If you looked beyond your myopic vision, you would realise I am against the zio-israeli-terror machine that is occuppying and murdering civilians in the name of their God. Hence I am anti-zionist, not anti-Jewish, or not anti-semitic. And something I asked RSD, I will ask you, do you know the differene between Judaism and Zionsim?

And seen as Penelope 'The Banal' Celery, failed to provide any evidence of her rants, whilst evading to answer the questions I put to her/him, and then resorting to cheap insults. Well, she got her just deserts, with a nice big cherry on top!

Liberty, definitely the most inappropriately named person on the forum. Thankfully, I do not want reasonable discussion with someone, who believes the conflict is only about Qassams going into Israel and the conflict only started last weekend, and the occupation, persection of another people is fine, and so is the murder of children (another 5 were murdered today by the zio-neo-con-fascists), that all of Israel's neighbours want to annihilate the country, strange when Egypt and Jordan have signed peace treaties. Who also thought Hizb-Tahrir was a banned terrorist organisation. Before you can even dare to challenge me on the Palestinian/Israel conflict you should analyse the issue beyond your Zionist lens.

If the zionist fascist wolves are so righteous about what they are doing in Gaza, why have they banned foreign journalist from Gaza, overruling their own Israeli Supreme Court, whilst allowing in their own pro-zionist media???

Answers to this and the questions I put to Penelope 'The Banal' Celery will be greatly appreciated.

(94) 2009-01-05 16:46:58

Timothy:

The reason why journalist have been banned from entering gaza is so that the israeli propaganda machine can continue to fool the world into deep slumber by feeding them the lie that there is no humanitarian crisis whilst murdering even more palistinian children and depriving the palistinian people of food, water, electricity, dignity and freedom. According to the Israeli lie machine aid is getting through but nobody knows from where. Anyone that murders does not ofcourse wnat witnesses.

Secondly by controlling where the media can and can't go means that even more journalists clamber over themselves to support Israel as it means they get favours and exclusives fed to them by the israeli propaganda machine on the israeli sude of the border etc... anyone controlling the media is never a good thing and is a sign of dicatorhsip and censorship.

(95) 2009-01-05 17:47:43

Paul M:

It's very simple. The Palestinians could have used the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza to start building a state. With a tenth of the dedication and energy shown by the early Zionists they would have soon been in a position to insist that the Israelis withdraw from the West Bank. And the Israelis would have gladly done so. Indeed, Kadima won the last election on the basis that it would withdraw from 90%+ of the West Bank unilaterally. The rest could be negotiated.

Or they could elect and support a genocidal movement dedicated to impose an Islamic State in all of Palestine in which the few remaining Jews - if any - would revert to dhimmi status. And meanwhile, they could daily provoke Israel into returning to Gaza on the basis that any square inch of 'liberated' Palestine will be used a base from which to launch rockets against Israeli civilians.

The Palestinians chose the second option. We see the results today.

Nothing terrifies Hamas or MPAC more than the end of the occupation and the establishment of a Palestinian state. For Hamas it would mean the need to engage in the difficult business of creating rather than destroying. For MPAC it would be the end of a great whipping boy, an attempt to use the issue of Palestine as a rallying call around which to create a sense of Islamic identity among the deracinated Pakistani youth of Britain.

(96) 2009-01-05 18:48:47

Osman Ghazi:

US troops 'monitoring Rafah crossing'

US troops are helping Egypt prevent "arms smuggling" from tunnels in the Rafah border-crossing, as Israel continues its attacks on Gaza.

NBC anchorwoman and chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell said Sunday that US military officers from the Corps of Engineers had been stationed on the Egyptian side of the Rafah crossing in order to prevent "arms smuggling from illegal tunnels" by Palestinian fighters.

“ And there are US Army Corps of Engineer personnel on the ground right now on the Egypt side looking at the tunnels to see how Egypt could be reassured that there won't be continued smuggling through on that," she said on Meet the Press.

The US and Israel say the tunnels are used for smuggling arms into the Gaza Strip. Israeli warplanes have bombing the Rafah border to destroy the tunnels.

Tunnels between the two sides of the Rafah border crossing have been almost the only way for Gazans to obtain food and medicine after Israel besieged the costal strip in mid-2007, after Hamas took control of the region.

Meanwhile, Israel pushes forward with its offensive on the Gaza Strip.

At least 551 Palestinians have lost their lives, and some 2,790 others are reported wounded -- most of whom are civilians.

Despite international calls for an immediate halt to the ongoing crisis in Gaza, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said earlier Monday that the ground incursion would be continued until the objectives are reached.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80725&sectionid=351020202

(97) 2009-01-05 19:47:30

Penelope:

"Rats like you are not even worthy of being the dust under one's shoes. "

Henry also seems to think that "celery" is an insult.

Tell me, Henry, do you find that your sales technique works often? Are you perhaps not a very popular boy?

You really are going to have to learn that behaving as you do has a completely negative effect on people. Its not funny and its not clever.

Thats enough lectures, now go and clean your room.

(98) 2009-01-05 20:14:16

Al Anon:

At a time when the innocence of the children of palestine is being stolen from them we should be thankful of gods angels who are watching over the children of gaza.

Although it means little, these angels include those such as Dr Mads Gilbert who is probably risking his own life by treating these children and by staying in gaza and all the angels who are also called Mads Gilbert in everything but name such as doctors, the nurseds, the callers for peace and the givers of aid and all the angels who call themselves journalist who are doing their best to make the world aware of satans attempts to snatch way these children from us by making us aware of their suffering.

Suffering that they as xchildren do not understand but only feel. Their short traumatic horror filled lives should make us ask why and say never again?

(99) 2009-01-05 22:27:49

SilverLJ:

— Henry

The reason perhaps people don't read most of what you write is because you call people names and its obvious you are biased and harsh in almost everything you say. I suspect everyone knows that Zionism implies those who believe in a Jewish homeland/state and it cannot be doubted Jews have a claim to the land they occupy but as you know they were often invaded by Babylonians, Persians, Romans and we must not forget the Islamic Imperialistic Arabs.

If there is a lasting solution here it can only come ultimately by peaceful means and a shared but common humanity. Sadly, you are not of that mind as one can see from your accusatory and vulgar tone

(100) 2009-01-05 23:54:21

Penelope:

well said SilverLJ

fancy some celery?

(101) 2009-01-06 00:16:10

Henry:

tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, still, waiting, for Penelope 'The Banal' Celery to answer my questions. Well, what can I say, another self-defeated argument.

And I cannot clean my bedroom because a Zionist under the guise of an electrician came to fix the electrical socket. Then in a sudden fit of rage, decided it belonged to him, and then revealed a AK-47, held it to my forehead, called in reinforcements through his radio, which included an American Chinook helicopter hovering over the roof, and a tank menacingly moving through my neighbourhood, heading to my house to occupy my bedroom and the entire house. This was chillingly repeated to colonise the whole community. Goodbye, you are the weakest link.

Shalom, Shalom, SilverLJ, quote, 'Jews have a claim to the land they occupy unquote'. Result! Result! A Zionist-licking cheerleader, admitting Palestine is under occupation!

I get immense satisfaction from irritating people such as yourself and your zionistical primate, Penelope 'The Banal' Celery, because you are so uncomfortable and in denial about the facts. If I can't get past the huge wall you have erected around Golders Green Shalom!

(102) 2009-01-06 07:20:02

SilverLJ:

— Henry

Henry, its not irritation we feel for you; its more a feeling of sadness that what might be a good mind is twisted and blighted forever by arrogance and hate.

(103) 2009-01-06 09:52:35

shan:

Having watched the news from gaza that western media is hiding from joe public, i can truly say that there shall never be peace until justice is not done.
The man whose 3 children were killed by israeli bombs as they slept, will never forget.
The more the israelis kill the more they bring their own days of reckoning closer.
I hope i live to see justice being done.

(104) 2009-01-06 11:02:58

Shamsur:

Mad Mel at it again........

Yesterday in her Daily mail column, zionist melanie philips the journalist and future Israeli prime minister fired her venom once again.

This evil zionist women made every excuse for the Isreali onslaught the same way the gestapo used to in the 1940's.

The thing which shocked me the most about ehr comments were that israel had made the most concessions, scroficing its OWN land giving it away to Palestinian Mulsims when its was Jews who rightfully own it hundreds of years before even in her view Muhammed PBUH ws born.

What cheek and what blatant false propaganda. How on earth can she claim such rubbish.

maybe i can also claim as a south asian to trace my lineage back to yemen where my ancestors probably came from, and go and invade it with a hundred thousand just like me, and than kill yemenis, destroy their homes, and claim that land as my own. Maybe America will support my superficial claim? maybe they will give me weapons and planes and anything else i want in return for nothing.

well if Melanie wasn't in line for the zionist throne i would ignor this statement, but we have come to learn that zionists are capable of using the media to justify just about anything.

(105) 2009-01-06 11:11:35

omar:

I am struck by the reactions of our kids.

Last night my kids volunteered half their savings to Ghaza charity yet the same kids refused to pay a share to buy their Dad a new computer as a gift just recently.

Speaking to young muslim kids in this country, you can sense the sense of injustice they feel when they see wots happening and the media silence and the goverments response - I will not be able to convince them about any morality that I see in the west no more.

(106) 2009-01-06 13:15:41

Acky boodle:

As someone reading comments on this website I am so impressed by the comments from henry and cannot stop laughing at the obvious comments from supporters of Israel who seem more concerned with stopping henry rather than taking note of what he is saying or even offering some form of meaningful response.

They don't want to answer any questions henry they don't even read most comments as their intellect only extends to spreading lies and propoganda. Something you seem not to be letting them do.

Everyone knows that Israel wants to make life as difficult for palestinians as possible so they have to resort to firing their pathetic home made miniscule rockets and so giving an excuse to israel to continue their ethnic cleansing which they started over 50 years ago.

The average age of the palestinian population is getting younger and younger. A sign that Israel is achieving its target of comming into even more land by clearing the west bank and gaza strip of all signs of palestinian life.

(107) 2009-01-06 15:40:23

Sultan (in Oxford):

Assalaam alaikum and Greetings

To the Israeli Supporters, apologetics.

The Israeli IDF Soldiers, taking "defensive action" in GAZA, have just hit an UN School for Children, killing many children.

Are you barbarians ?, that do not value life and you think you can hit any targets even if it has UN, RED CROSS, AMBULANCE all over it.

Oh, HAMAS militants were probably hiding within that School, or the school was stock-piled with missiles to be used against Israel.

The IDF soldiers are nothing but thugs, and none of you can claim the moral highground when you target Schools, Ambulances, UN Institutions, and target/shoot stone-throwing children in the head.

It amazes me no end that Political Leaders are blaming HAMAS for all this, and the conditions set out for ceasefire are for HAMAS to stop smuggling arms from Egypt, via tunnels.

It's okay for Israel to be armed to the hilt with the latest weaponary (F16s, Lockheed tanks, unmanned drones, nuclear weapons) but hey, those "Palestinian terrorists" who we control via airpsace, land and sea, are not supposed to smuggle in ammunition, even primitive rockets.

Talk about open Double Standards.

If you wish for Hamas to stop arming itself, perhaps, you would do the decent thing and tell the USA you don't need weapons.

But you won't, because Zionists and their supporters are nothing more than cowards hiding behind artillary, protection of other nations, and words.

For all your talk of being the "chosen ones" and Israel being the "promised land of GOD", (and duping the Christian Fundamentalists to support you and Israel along religious lines at all costs) you actually fear death. Unlike Muslims.

Which is the reason why you wish to arm yourselves to the hilt, but prevent others from doing so. So that you can control their livelihood, and get them to do as you say.

You people want "peace", but peace has to be on your terms, while engaging in illegal land confiscation, illegal development, while depriving the Palestians of their basic needs.

If I, as a normally moderate person has been moved to say these things, then GOD help you against those you label as Muslim "fundamentalists" or "extremists".

This "war on terror" is certainly winning.

Telling moderate Muslims like me that when it comes to Israel, anything goes and Palestinian Muslims and Christians are not worth a finger-nail.

Wasalaams

##################

BBC

At least 40 people have been killed in an Israeli air strike on a United Nations-run school in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medical sources have said.

A number of children were among those who died when the al-Falluj school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

(108) 2009-01-06 16:22:31

NY PALI:

Israel is the one desperate for the lull, that is why today they bombed a school run by the UN, to apply pressure on the international community to push for a ceasefire, so Israel and the IDF did not look like the cowards they really are who turned away from the fighting as soon as things got tough. COWARDS!!!!!!!
They try and lie saying IDF deaths are from friendly fire so public opinion doesn't turn on them. ALL LIES

(109) 2009-01-06 16:31:56

Penelope:

I would be more impressed by Muslim outrage at Israel's actions if Muslim terrorism - 9/11, 7/7, Bali, Madrid or the bombing of Shia pilgrims a couple of days ago were greeted with equally vociferous dismay.

He who lives by the sword will often die by it.

By relying on violence to achieve their own ends they have lost the moral high-ground that they might have had.

Thus Israel can get away with things that should bring condemnation from the rest of the world. 60 years of fruitless violence have failed the Palestinians and made their situation worse. So the solution is to send in non-existant Islamic armies?

Thank God that I live in a secular society.

(110) 2009-01-06 17:34:14

UK Lad:

So what's a Zionazi???

(111) 2009-01-06 18:09:27

SilverLJ:

I am struck by the reactions of our kids. Last night my kids volunteered half their savings to Ghaza charity yet the same kids refused to pay a share to buy their Dad a new computer as a gift just recently.

Speaking to young muslim kids in this country, you can sense the sense of injustice they feel when they see wots happening and the media silence and the goverments response - I will not be able to convince them about any morality that I see in the west no more.

— omar

Maybe its because you don't have an unbiased view of morality. Tell your kids about the killing in Darfur by Muslims, tell your kids about Muslims killing indiscriminately other Muslims in Iraq daily in number that make the killings in Gaza look like a school outing.

I hardly know what to say about your charge of media silence as its on my news channels continually and everyday in my newspapers there are pages of detailed descriptions and pictures, papers carry adverts for money to help the victims, the web is full of it - what world are you living in?

You talk about morality in the West, but what about Muslim countries - I don't see them rushing to do much and its no secret and never has been that Middle Eastern countries do not want a Palestinian state.

Don't teach your children that the West is bad and East is good, teach them about humanity and care for everyone otherwise you are teaching them to hate and Gaza sadly is a terrible example of mutual hatred with no end in sight.

(112) 2009-01-07 01:19:15

SilverLJ:

— shan

I see your point and yes we must have justice and truth that is the only way to live. But I get the feeling justice for you means punishing Israel but can you also accept that children killed by a rocket in Israel must have justice also. If you cannot agree to that then you are talking about vengeance not justice.

(113) 2009-01-07 01:26:37

seb:

to SiverLJ - only a zionazi lover like yourself could come up with such apologetic manure. you fool no one. perhaps you're already booking your ticket to Isreal so you can get stuck in.

(114) 2009-01-07 01:36:44

shan:

I beleive in justice for all, for me there is no bar for justice, if you have been wronged then you deserve justice
No occupation of paestine means no resistance period.

(115) 2009-01-07 10:48:21

Osman Ghazi:

Aparently the BNP is supporting Israel in their killing of Palestinians.

(116) 2009-01-07 11:29:21

omar:

Silver, like any other Muslim parent, I teach my kids to respect to all people just as God says in Quran … 'we have dignity to all the children of Adam (not just muslims)…' ; to seek the truth even if it is against their own interest and about that great modern principle in Islam about individual responsibility and accountability. Hate is evil. Hate the action not the person. Love thy neighbour etc.

However to hold on the above values is not to the exclusion of recognising the truth about current events or bending backwards to accommodate a white master simply because he is educated in Oxford and comes on the TV with a well thought out argument. Truth is truth and all peoples no matter their eloquence can recognise a lie.

While there in no truth in claims that Israel can be beaten on the battlefield as many muslims are want to claim, equally the land of Palestine remains gotten by theft and terror, that Iraq like has been raped for its resourses. Nothing can justify any terror, Muslim or not but pirates hijacking one ship is not in the same league as stealing all the resourses of Iraq.

(117) 2009-01-07 12:33:31

SilverLJ:

— omar

May I ask like for you 'what is truth', can you define it? For example, I have a book published officially is Saudi Arabia called 'The religion of truth' but almost on the first page it says 'all Shia's are liars'.

Here for example, you avoided my question in my posting about Muslims killing in 1000s other Muslims and instead talked about stealing resources, though who is doing that I don't know. Even then truth seems to elude you are you say stealing A is not as bad as stealing B.

(118) 2009-01-07 13:28:03

omar:

I have no interest as to who the Saudis think are liars or not. Like Malcolm X said ' I am a man' so does mess with me .. don’t lie to me. Truth is simple even my 5 kids understand that, that’s why they understand being lied to in the current climate, not sure what your difficulty with the truth is. If someone does something wrong it’s a wrong no matter the colour of the person or religion. Muslims killed in Darfur. I have to face God and he has no bias.

Gaza is a concentration camp. Israel is an apartheid state. The West doesn’t give a monkeys - all they are interested in is not offending Israel. Israeli lobbies run riot in the west. Period.

Muslims welcomed Jews as cousins for centuries while Christian Europe hatred and persecuted them but Muslims now risk wholesale adoption of that hatred because of the injustices to the Palestinians. Any attack on an innocent Jew or anyone else especially in the UK is unacceptable and you will be held to account if not in this world then by God in the next. To be a muslim is to fight clean even in the face of provocation. To do the right thing, to pray for Gods intervention and to allow him to his thing. It’s the journey, the travelling that is important, you don’t have to get to the destination - that’s in Gods hands. We win either way - martyrdom or victory.

(119) 2009-01-07 14:50:59

Henry:

SilverLJ, SilverLJ, do you teach your children, Jewish on Jewish violence, Ashekenazi and ortho-rabbi Jews against Messianic Jews, or how about, Christendom versus Christendon, Catholic againts Protestant in Northern Ireland vice-versa, Evangelical Christians against Jehova's Witnesses and The Church of the Latter Day Saints in America?

Do you teach your children, Nationalist Hindus killing thousands of other Hindus in India, The Untouchables?

Didn't think so!

(120) 2009-01-07 15:46:10

SilverLJ:

— omar

You seem to me to be stating the truth is what YOU think it is. Two examples.

I stated that a book published by the centre of the Muslim world says "all shia's are liars" you are not interested if this is true of false.

Secondly in the Holy Qu,ran 6:13 we read "If God afflicts you with an evil, none can remove it but He, and if He blesses you with good fortune, know that he alone has power over all things" Is that true? If so and you read more of these posts you will see that other contributors suggest that God may be afflicting those at Gaza - is that true if not and God has power over all things why is He letting this happen to Muslims?

(121) 2009-01-07 16:20:06

SilverLJ:

— Henry

Do you teach all the above to your children and why is it you selectively left out Muslim killing Muslim - is it because you know such killings far, far exceed in numbers anything going on in Gaza. Does that make Gaza ok? No of course it does not but it does call into question your biased morality. But I guess we have all come to expect that from you.

(122) 2009-01-07 16:26:59

URGENT NOTICE:

LBC 97.3 Radio is holding a phone in to discuss Gazis propagating Israeli government views. Phoia/Palestine. The presenter is pro-Israel and is propagating Israeli government views. Phone in put Palestinian views forward Now

7 Jan 16:52

(123) 2009-01-07 16:54:23

shan:

silverlj so your logic is that since person A has killed person B, then it is ok for you to kill person C, the levels that you stoop to justify the killings by jews of palestinians is truly sickening.
Since europeans have killed hundreds of millions of their own people in two world wars, does that mean anyone can slauughter hundreds of millions and justify it by saying well you killed hundreds of millions, so what if i am killing hundreds of millions.
since a jew killed the president of israel, can tha be used as excuse by others to kill the leaders of israel.
since 6 million jews were supposedly killed by europeans can others kill millions of jews because the europeans did so.
BTW more muslims have been killed by israel and its vassal then anyone else in the history of islam.

(124) 2009-01-07 16:58:08

Abdel hakim:

Secondly in the Holy Qu,ran 6:13 we read "If God afflicts you with an evil, none can remove it but He, and if He blesses you with good fortune, know that he alone has power over all things" Is that true? If so and you read more of these posts you will see that other contributors suggest that God may be afflicting those at Gaza - is that true if not and God has power over all things why is He letting this happen to Muslims?

Sliver J, my my my reading out of context again. Are you trying to twist these words into meaning what you want them to mean or perhaps you are applying your understanding of some other religious book such as the torah to them. Are you really saying that god is on your side whilst you are comitting some of the most evils crimes that civilisation has ever seen this century?

Are you really saying that god was on hitler's side and on the side of all evil dictators, religious zealots, fundamental extremists.

I think that you have just proved that the israelis are the real fundamental extremists. Religous zealots who have an evil vision of being the supreme race.

Yes god has certainly given the israelis the right to choose between right and wrong and good and evil. Unfortuntaely for palestininans god has also armed them but only perhaps to test their evil resolve. The evil afflicted on the gazan people is being inflicted by the evil and savagery of the israelis who everyone knows are war hungry and blood thirsty especially for every last drop of palestinian blood and will do anything to intimidate the palestines into doing things which means that excuses and justication can be made for killing even more palestinins.

The whole world is watching the evil israeli regime and its evil supporters being ready and willing to sacrifice the blood of the children of gaza for their own evil ends.

Even though your evil and dictatorial regime is trying their best to stop journalists from bringing in the pictures of their evil genocidal attacks on civilisation including unarmed children and women.... even though your evil regime is trying to justify killing and preventing aid from reaching the human wave of suffering that has now become palestine and why because of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth the only difference being that for every single israeli eye or every single israeli tooth hundreds and thousands of palestininan eyes and hundreds of thousands of palestinian teeth and lives must be sacrificed to quench the thirst for blood that the israeli population has.

Why because someone dared to take action against your inhumanity and non-civilisation by firing home made rockets against the inhumanity and non-civilisation that seeks to prevent them from living free and prevents them from receiving food and prevents them from receiving water and prevents them from receiving electricity and prevents them from building their homes and prevents from from moving about freely on their own land and prevents them from being able to bring up their children, and prevents them from living to a ripe old age and prevents them living in peace and why?

Just because the land that they are living on is being eyed up by israeli land investors so they can build more jewish settlements and homes and so make mega bucks.

Inhumanity lives in israel, a land that doesn't have diplomats but war mongers.

Long live hugo chavez!

(125) 2009-01-07 19:20:14

SAJ:

Why do innocent Muslim children have to pay the prices for crimes committed by the Europeans and Nazis in another time on another continent? The Zionist lies are an embarrassment but not surprising as all thieves have to lie to cover up their crime of theft! The Zionists should go back to Europe where they came from! A best selling book in Israel written by an Israeli historian (see link) has exposed the Zionist lies it claims the Jews were never expelled from Jerusalem and the reason they didn’t live there was due to their own Jewish religious beliefs the Zionist have really harmed Judaism it about time all Jews exposed Zionism and left Palestine for the sake of world peace!

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=13569

(126) 2009-01-08 12:13:43

SilverLJ:

Sliver J, my my my reading out of context again. Are you trying to twist these words into meaning what you want them to mean or perhaps you are applying your understanding of some other religious book such as the torah to them.

— Abdel hakim

Abdel hakim, my my my reading out of context again. If you you followed my posts you would see that I was just illustrating that TRUTH is not always as simple an idea as one might think and in many cases we cannot for sure know the truth. You talk about context, so should I take just the verse in question, several of the surrounding verses, the whole chapter, should I check if its been abrogated - where does one stop?

Your posts if I may say so just further illustrates my point, truth is what you say it is. So HAMAS is not evil but Israel is, a Palestinian child murdered is evil but Jewish child murdered is retribution.

You talk about land investors but conveniently forget that the Muslim conquests which stole the land in the first place have fought each other over it ever since and then extracted all they could to their own ends and the fact that Arab states now have billions and billions of dollars but I don't see them rushing to help anyone and it is likely to be true the Western help far exceeds anything from the Muslim world.

Long live truth but you will never find it

(127) 2009-01-08 13:50:42

Abdel Hakim:

Silver J there you go again about truth but the truth is what you and all pro-israelis including the israeli government and its citizens would like to hide and you have started this by preventing journalists going into gaza as you are so afraid of the truth but you want them to see something that is your lies and propaganda which you want the journalists to call the truth.

I used to have a totally different view of Israelis as I thought many of them had suffered but now I just think they're sick and full of hate and contempt for humanity as they even try to justify killing children and yet want the whole world to feel their pain at the expense of everyone else..... now that is the truth.

And finally if you really want the turth then israelis must face war crime charges for the totally unjustfiable deliberate targetting of children inclduing women, the sick and disabled taking shelter in a UN school but then you and the israelis have never liked abiding by international law but only expect others to do so... now that is another truth.

(128) 2009-01-08 16:57:35

Informer:

Starbucks and McDonalds to donate ALL their takings up to next Saturday to Israel.

Boycott and pass the message on please.

(129) 2009-01-08 18:29:44

jules:

The genocidal, totalitarian, racial-supremacist, fascistic, and medieavalist organisation, HAMAS, will be destroyed by the superior technology and intelligence, and the superior morale and self-belief, of a secular, democratic, modern, open, society.

What is it you don't get?

(130) 2009-01-08 20:50:58

May Gods Angels Prevail Against:

If the children of the holocaust survived their trauma by being able to escape into countries that welcomed them with open arms, then what hope for the children of Gaza who are today facing their own holocaust and yet they do not understand the cruel barbaric world around them. They do not know why their mom will not wake up or why mom will not look after them their every need.

They aren't even allowed to leave their land and escape into countries that will welcome them with open arms. they will just go through childhood life traumatised, shocked, saddened and unable to understand the cruel world that they have been born in to.

(131) 2009-01-08 21:17:28

SilverLJ:

— Abdel Hakim

This is not for me about taking sides, that is why we have problem. You are right that so far Journalist have not been let in but there are plenty in Gaza already. I have spent hours in front of my TV watching the most disturbing of scenes and I have given money already to help needy families in Gaza get food at least.

To hate all Israelis is not a way to solve anything and all that does is to turn you into an aggressor. I might as well hate all Muslims because of the Janjaween in Darfur or because a Sunni Muslim in Iraq blows up a Shia Mosque - such an action is illogical and does nothing to bring peace to anyone.

For example, I know there are many Israeli organisations that are doing what they can: Rabbi's for Peace, The Bible Society in Israel and the Arab-Israeli Bible Society for example have all been accepting gifts that go directly to the people of Gaza.

This is the truth just as much as anything you see on TV. I am just sorry that you don't want to hear it and hate has blighted and will blight your humanity.

(132) 2009-01-08 23:42:39

omar:

Jules for u its all about being the superior animal

For me as muslim its all about being a moral human being.

Therein lies all the difference.

(133) 2009-01-09 09:48:34

SilverLJ:

Jules for u its all about being the superior animal. For me as muslim its all about being a moral human being.
Therein lies all the difference.

— omar

I might nor agree with Jules but are you saying by implication that therefore HAMAS is an organisation with high moral values - is that the difference you are talking about?

(134) 2009-01-09 11:03:25

omar:

Silver I am not responsible for what Hamas does or does not do, only for what I am responsible for. I am not a Palestinian not even an Arab.

The West its losing moral standing by not recognising the events in the Gaza for what they are. If you look at the coverage you would swear that it is an equal fight. Its all in the language that is being used. No talk of state terrorism, no mention of flouting of international law, of ignoring the UN, no mention of the C word - concentration camp, no mention of civilian massacre, ethnic cleansing, apartheid state. All that is mentioned is about the fighting on both sides as if they were of equal strength.

This in contrast to how quickly the west is want to pass judgement in other conflicts using the above labels. This in addition to Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, illegal invasion of Iraq, presence to Afghanistan to secure a pipeline, denial of democratic institutions in muslim countries especially when the populace chooses a party with an Islamic flavour.

Selling off rubbish (toxic loans) in the form of AAA rated products to the rest of the world further diminishes America's reputation.

Muslims and the West need to not be at odds. All we need is an equal playing field in which there is mutual respect. talk of superior intelligence and might if ofcourse not just racist but deeply immoral.

Hope you can see the point

(135) 2009-01-09 11:22:14

Rukhsana:

Please see this petition on the prime mininster's offical site calling for sanctions against israel.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Israel-sanctitions/ We need 40 thousand to sign to reach the top of the list and have so far 12,158 and deadline is the 27 January 2009. Pls consider signing and circulating to your contacts.

Thank you.

(136) 2009-01-09 16:35:35

SilverLJ:

— omar

I see your point but in the coverage of Gaza I have seen nothing seems to have been hidden and as far as I can tell the facts are plain to see.

The media usually will not take sides but just report the facts, that is how it works and should work, the media are not judge and jury.

You say the West is quick to pass judgement although I am not quite sure who the West body is that does that. TV and papers here can within the law say what they wish just as you can.

Sadly, in Islamic countries that is almost never true with media tightly controlled and although I spend a good deal of time in the middle east, one does not see much condemnation of say Sunni bombers in Iraq.

Its a very odd idea to say Muslims and the West as if Muslims where not part of the West and are entirely free to worship as they wish within the law - which unlike Sharia is the same for everyone.

I agree we want harmony and equality and mutual respect and that is available in the West but its not available in many places in the East. You have to be aware that under Muslim law there is no equality of status between Muslim and non-Muslim and as you must know the holy Qu'ran practically forbids friendship muslim to non-Muslim so it is that a level playing field.
Having said that although I am non-Muslim I would say I have a very large number of Muslim friends so I know that we need no be at odds with each other.

(137) 2009-01-09 18:58:44

Abdel Hakim:

Silver J- so this is your truth. Everything anti-muslim you think is the truth pah... pity you for being blinded by your prejudice...

"I have seen nothing seems to have been hidden and as far as I can tell the facts are plain to see".

Need I say more about the "truth" that you have never seen and which you will never see because your anti-muslim prejudice makes you blind.

(138) 2009-01-09 19:31:36

omar:

Silver I find this forum too cumbersome to discuss as you will appreciate

Suffice to say that if you think we have anbiased media you are living in cuckooland. Zionist influence is all pervasive.

The Quraan does not forbid relations with non muslims, neither does it advocate compulsion in religion. Read muslim history and you cannot but escape that conclusion.

As for muslim lands in todays times, they are so much under the hegemony of the West who will not allow islamic expression of its peoples.

We are muslims. We want to be muslims. We exist and always will.There is nothing inherently evil about us just as you would swear from inpressions given of us in the media and by politicians - refer to the disgraceful episode a year or so ago when one minister after the next attacked the nikaab.

Ofcourse the idea of thinking a group of people are by their nature evil is nothing new. It happenned in the Europe of the 1930,s and is happening again.

(139) 2009-01-10 10:11:47

SilverLJ:

Silver I find this forum too cumbersome to discuss as you will appreciate

Suffice to say that if you think we have anbiased media you are living in cuckooland. Zionist influence is all pervasive.

The Quraan does not forbid relations with non muslims, neither does it advocate compulsion in religion. Read muslim history and you cannot but escape that conclusion.

As for muslim lands in todays times, they are so much under the hegemony of the West who will not allow islamic expression of its peoples.

We are muslims. We want to be muslims. We exist and always will.There is nothing inherently evil about us just as you would swear from inpressions given of us in the media and by politicians - refer to the disgraceful episode a year or so ago when one minister after the next attacked the nikaab.

Of course the idea of thinking a group of people are by their nature evil is nothing new. It happenned in the Europe of the 1930,s and is happening again.

— omar

I agree it is not an ideal forum but may I point you to for example Q:3:118 or Q:5:51 and even if we take in the context the words seem clear. I am not sure if you deliberately said "relations" as being distinct from the word "friends" which is the word used in the Qu'ran in which case I agree with you. Muslim history is full of references to 'relations' with non-Muslims but never in the sense of equality and that I think was my point.

You talk of Muslim lands but these lands for the most part were stolen from the indigenous peoples my Muslim imperialist armies and if the West has had an Hegemony its has always been a complicit one. In the West any Muslim is free to practice Islam, indeed one might say more freely than they could in Muslim lands unless you insist on Sharia but that would mean you approve of slavery for example and oppose equality among all people.

The media everywhere has biased and in Muslim lands they are the most biased of all and if you don't acknowledge that it you who are in cloud cuckoo land.

The West allows you to be Muslims, I know of no law that forbids it. But Muslim law forbids YOU for example becoming a Christian or Hindu or whatever so the West is not oppressing you Islam is what is doing that.

One final point, in the West we are free to have opinions of our own and discuss them freely. If I think the nikaab is an absurdity I can say so and it's only a narrow mind would take that as a disgrace and that is why Islam and the Ummah are often seen as backward, they simply cannot face up to any criticism of their faith or history and whenever it does arise it's racist, or a disgrace or etc etc but never could be anything but perfection. I am not aware of a general feeling that all Muslims are bad or evil people and I think that is a paranoia.

(140) 2009-01-11 16:44:41

Shazadkashmir:

Another Zionist member in disguise Silver LJ.

Mate you dont know anything about Sharia, just what you hear on FOX News. I encourage you to get your facts right before degrading Muslims in your aggorant and cocky style.

One final point, while we are tolerated By western society we are not accepted.
In order for us to be accepted we have to 'become one of them', e.g. support Israel, support right wing views.

Im glad we have resistance against this system, whether that be in Palestine, or elsewhere

(141) 2009-01-11 20:48:31

Shazadkashmir:

Whilst am not an expert in current affairs, or western history, Ive got one phrase for you Silver LJ

' One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'.

(142) 2009-01-11 20:50:35

SilverLJ:

Whilst am not an expert in current affairs, or western history, Ive got one phrase for you Silver LJ

' One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'.

— Shazadkashmir

Ah, so you agree that Israelis are freedom fighters!

(143) 2009-01-11 22:36:42

SilverLJ:

Another Zionist member in disguise Silver LJ. Mate you dont know anything about Sharia, just what you hear on FOX News. I encourage you to get your facts right before degrading Muslims in your aggorant and cocky style.

One final point, while we are tolerated By western society we are not accepted.
In order for us to be accepted we have to 'become one of them', e.g. support Israel, support right wing views.

Im glad we have resistance against this system, whether that be in Palestine, or elsewhere

— Shazadkashmir

This is just typical - when anyone asks a Muslim a critical question they are abused with name calling - Zionist, ignorant, don't have the facts, are out to degrade Muslims, cocky style etc.

You have resistance against what system - a system where people are free to speak their mind, free to make their own choices. No you want a system which suffocates all independent thinking and self-criticism as is commonly found in many if not most Muslim countries where Sharia is the norm

(144) 2009-01-11 22:49:58

shan:

silverlj if anyone has to answer questions it is people like you who support the mass murdering-evil and mentally deranged people who suffer from the chosen ones syndrome.
What is being done in palestine is pure evil by the zionists, herding people into the gaza ghetto and then using every type of weapon to weaken and kill them, this is what the nazis did to the jews in the ghettos.
So i guess the nazis were right in what they did as rabbis hold the whole people responsible for resistance then by the same logic hilter held the jews responsible.

(145) 2009-01-12 11:04:03

SilverLJ:

— shan

I consider your words deeply insulting in the extreme but it's typical of people who cannot think for themselves and as soon as another opinion is voiced they are named as: supporters of mass murder, evil, mentally deranged, chosen one syndrome - Edward De Bono once said "Argument is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it."

If you want to be open handed about this just take a look at Muslim History itself from the Prophet (pbuh) himself approving the slaughtering 600 Jews in Medina to the present day atrocities committed in the name of Islam.

I know as well as you do that many many millions have been murdered in the name of religions of all persuasions and in the name of almost any other ideology.

All anyone is asking you to do is admit that violence and genocide is unforgivable or is your humanity so blighted by hate that you would be happy to see Israel totally destroyed?

We have had middle Eastern violence in the modern world for a 100 years but what has it achieved - nothing. Do you want peace or just advance the Arab/Muslim imperialist dream?

(146) 2009-01-12 20:01:28

Shazadkashmir:

— SilverLJ

Like I said Silver study what the Sharia and Islamic law really says about freedom of speech.
Every human is given free will, they can do what they want, albeit with limits. If I was to commit a crime then I would be expected to be punished fairly, snd vice versa with you. Where the lines get blurred is the type of justice handed out, as in Sharia it acts more of a deterrent than ACTUAL punishment. You seem to be going off topic anyway, this post is about Gaza, not Sharia. This is a critical situation, and you seem to be meandering towards how other Muslims judicial systems are wrong, and how Western judicials are right.

(147) 2009-01-12 22:16:39

Shazadkashmir:

Let me ask you what if the people of Wales decided to relocate forcibly in Lincolnshire, and started to 'evacuate' the local population. Would there or wouldnt there be any resistance?
You are quite wide off the mark, and no I dont think everyone is a Zionist, as that is ignorance.

(148) 2009-01-12 22:19:02

SilverLJ:

— Shazadkashmir

— SilverLJ

It might seem to be going off topic but the point that was being made was that in this board one sees a one-way view of Gaza and indeed history. How you view Gaza is conditioned by what you see today and lets called it your world view. So Muslim's tend to see it as an attach on the whole Ummah with only one protagonist. But others try at least to see it in more rational and open minded terms as between two aggressors.

Bluntly, its ok to destroy Israel but not Gaza and vice versa. HAMAS is good Israel is bad etc.

This is very like Sharia because it is NOT and never has been law which enshrines the notion of equality and I think that is how the debate on Sharia entered our debate.

(149) 2009-01-12 22:28:08

SilverLJ:

— Shazadkashmir

I see I think your point but Israel through several relatively recent wars in the region took huge amounts of land as Arab armies disintegrated before them. Since then and through various treaties much or most was given back or taken by other countries and it was hoped that would eventually lead to peace and statehood for the Palestinians.

Now, the central point here is that Israel rightly it seems to me have an historic and unquestionable right to live in that area. So I turn your question on its head and ask have not the Israeli's a right to resist being driven from their ancient homeland?

(150) 2009-01-12 22:40:13

seb:

The Nazis had their collaborators and apologists. The Zionazis have their own versions in a variety of guises - one such example being this SILVERLJ character - though he does come across as a bit of an amateur.

(151) 2009-01-13 01:41:47

Shazadkashmir:

You see Silver this is where the difference is, the Holy Land has only ever been for the Jews in Moses' days, you can look and compare your history, it will say a similar thing. Inn the Cruasades, Jews were living UNDER Muslim rule.
Whilst am not condoning violence by any side, whether that be Hamas or Israel, one side does have the right to defend, and how can you call 'defence' when 850 people are dead?

(152) 2009-01-13 10:05:13

JSmith:

This is how Israeli supporters are spreading their propaganda:

http://www.giyus.org

I urge you to download the "Megaphone Desktop Tool" and each time you receive an "Action alert" let the world know the truth.

(153) 2009-01-13 10:36:03

shan:

silverlj the mentally deranged killers are there for all to see here and now, right as i type now children-women and men are being hunted down in gaza.
yet everytime a zionist comes up with oh the prophet ordered 600 jews o be killed 1400 years ago, give us the evidence that 600 jews were killed by the prophet for being jews, as it is easy to slander without evidence and it is a favourite zionist trick when their ugly and vicious charade of democracy and human rights is shown up.
I do not believe in he said she said, i belive in hard evidence and that hard evidence is shown everyday of the slaughter in palestine, what is it other than the chosen ones syndrome which makes you so arrogant to think you can rob-steal-occupy-torture and murder yet you are not to blame.

(154) 2009-01-13 10:53:01

omar:

Silver in post 146 u say pbuh after the name of the prophet. U not an MPAC moderator stimulating discussion are u?

Talk of media manipulation - lol. if they can do, we can too hey.

(155) 2009-01-13 12:55:21

Shazadkashmir:

Hes probable Hamas!!!

(156) 2009-01-13 14:06:00

silverLJ:

— shan

Shan, what evidence would you like but I can tell you that the Medina genocide was attested in considerable detail by no less a luminary that Ibn Ishaq as well as many others - go and look at the sources.

If you are going to ignore Ibn Ishaq then there are many hundreds of other incidents involving the Prophet (pbuh) that you will have to questions as well as he, as you no doubt know, was the earliest and probably best biographer of the prophet.

It is no secret and never has been than many genocidal incidents right up to the present day have been committed by Muslims - just ask the Armenian's or Kurd's. It is also true that Biblical characters like Moses slaughtered 1,000s.

The difference perhaps is that no Jew or Christian would cite Moses' action as an example of conduct but one nevertheless finds all the time Muslims citing the prophet's example of conduct as one to follow and I guess that is why you don't like to see the evidence.

In my view examples like Moses and that in Medina should be 'shut up' and we simply admit it happened but don't see it as an example of conduct to be followed.

My fiends Omar and Shaz - I am not HAMAS or a moderator and my involvement in this board is to share points of view and information as I see that as the only rational way forward

If those who kill children or anyone are mentally deranged then by you own definition HAMAS is mentally deranged.

(157) 2009-01-13 16:22:46

SilverLJ:

— shan

Shan, what evidence would you like but I can tell you that the Medina genocide was attested in considerable detail by no less a luminary that Ibn Ishaq as well as many others - go and look at the sources.

If you are going to ignore Ibn Ishaq then there are many hundreds of other incidents involving the Prophet (pbuh) that you will have to questions as well, because he, as you no doubt know, was the earliest and probably best biographer of the prophet.

If those who kill children or anyone are mentally deranged then by you own definition HAMAS is mentally deranged as well.

It is no secret and never has been than many genocidal incidents right up to the present day have been committed by Muslims - just ask the Armenian's or Kurd's. It is also true that Biblical characters like Moses slaughtered 1,000s.

The difference perhaps is that no Jew or Christian would cite Moses' action as an example of conduct in this case but one nevertheless finds all the time Muslims citing the prophet's example of conduct as one to follow and I guess that is why you don't like to see the evidence.

In my view that examples like Moses and that in Medina should be 'shut up'and we simply admit it happened but don't see it as an example of conduct to be followed.

My fiends Omar and Shaz - I am not HAMAS or a moderator and my involvement in this board is to share points of view and information as I see that as the only rational way forward

(158) 2009-01-13 16:31:03

SilverLJ:

You see Silver this is where the difference is, the Holy Land has only ever been for the Jews in Moses' days, you can look and compare your history, it will say a similar thing. In the Cruasades, Jews were living UNDER Muslim rule.
Whilst am not condoning violence by any side, whether that be Hamas or Israel, one side does have the right to defend, and how can you call 'defence' when 850 people are dead?

— Shazadkashmir

Just want to be accurate here, Moses NEVER entered what we now call the Holy Land he was forbidden to do so because he at one place equated himself with God.

Entry to the Holy Land was let by Joshua and occurred over a periods of years. Later the Jews were conquered themselves by Babylonians, Persians, Syrians, Romans and Arabs in the name of Islam. So long before the crusades it was a Jewish homeland so by extension of your argument they have a right to defend it. Whether you regard what is happening now as proportional defence is a serious question but it does hinge perhaps on whether you think Israli's have a right to a state there or not.

(159) 2009-01-13 16:41:47

SilverLJ:

to SiverLJ - only a zionazi lover like yourself could come up with such apologetic manure. you fool no one. perhaps you're already booking your ticket to Isreal so you can get stuck in.

— seb

As I have pointed out many times in the Board, Seb, people like you have nothing to say except abuse: Zionist lover, manure, booking my ticket etc. You are ignorant of every fact unless it's one you like, supports your point of view otherwise you substitute abuse for argument.

I wonder if you care at all about people dying or want a permanent and Just end to this war for both sides because then you would have nothing to rant about.

I watch every day and long for an end to this utter madness - one child killed on either side is one too many and that is not counting the misery it brings to families.

Is that what you want, to create generation after generation who are taught to hate each other. Is that the kind of world you want to live in is this the kind of hate you want to teach your children?

Did you know that 400,000 Palestinians were expelled from Kuwait and large numbers of them had lived there all their lives - did you protest?

Did you know that Nasser as soon as he was elected oppressed Christians, particularly the Cops and the day after he was elected every Jewish home was visited by the police and each house marked. If you had been there would you have protested?

Did you know how Nasser as well as Saddam Hussain used the Palestinians to their own ends. Would you have protested?

Do you know where almost all the most virulent anti-Jewish literature comes from and almost certainly all the facts that are in your tiny mind? If you don't then it's time you found out.

No you don't know any of this because you don't know what oppression is.

(160) 2009-01-13 22:37:21

seb:

As I said before- SILVERLJ - you're a mere amateur. As an apologist and collaborator of Zionazi killers you really must try harder when bleating out your verbal diarrhoea.

(161) 2009-01-14 00:08:44

seb:

As I said before- SILVERLJ - you're a mere amateur. As an apologist and collaborator of Zionazi killers you really must try harder when bleating out your verbal diarrhoea.

(162) 2009-01-14 00:09:09

shan:

silverlj typical response he said she said, give ,me the evidence that 600 jews were killed for just being jews.
as for kuwait it is not called palestine, palestine is the homeland of palestinians, the palestinians in kuwait were not kuwaiti nationals, i am sure you know why they were kicked out under the noses of your american vassals.
so your logic and excuse is basically because others have mistreated palestinians you can slaughter them, did it ever occur in your mind that if jews had not occupied palestine and ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of palestinains then today the palestinians would not be living as exiles over the world.
since you give the examples you does that mean since hitler killed 6 million,then other people should do the same.
60 years of constant murder-torture-opression and daily humiliation you are blind to, does that have anything to do with goyims and chosen ones syndrome.
As for murder the israelis are experts as palestine attests to this.

(163) 2009-01-14 10:32:40

SilverLJ:

Shan, History is exactly 'he said she said that is what evidence' Two points and if you want more detail,write to me at warrarq@gmail.com

Prophet Mohamed went to Medina but his home was Mecca. Several Jewish tribes live in an around Medina, for example, the Qaynuqa and the Banu Qurayzah and had does so for a very long time - its was unquestionably their land.

Dealing with your point they did not accept Mohamed as a prophet and is true of millions today. There are report that they insulted him and tried to kill him so one supposes he took revenge and expelled some tribes and in the case of the Banu killed all them men and if vwe are to take as fact Muslim tradition that on that decision to kill 600 'the very throne of Allah shook.

Was that just? Clearly Jewish Land and property was stolen.

So I don't know for sure but I assume you were saying these 600 were killed and their land stolen justly? Has uncomfortable parallels I guess for you. If the Jews are experts at killing perhaps we should ask where they learned the tactic?

One other point, you say 60 years but in terms of war, and there have been many, who usually started the fighting and always ending in Israel getting more land?

(164) 2009-01-14 17:39:13

SilverLJ:

As I said before- SILVERLJ - you're a mere amateur. As an apologist and collaborator of Zionazi killers you really must try harder when bleating out your verbal diarrhoea.

— seb

My dear Seb, as is common with those with no argument and empty minds all you can do is use abuse.

(165) 2009-01-14 17:42:17

shan:

so silverlj you were warraqa/olson as well, why do you keep changing names but give same comments.
As to who you learnt to kill from,can be seen by the methods employed, the killing orgy being carried out in palestine is the same as what the nazis did to jews, so todays jews are the new nazis are they, i do not think so as i think zionists are the real enemies of jews and palestinians.
Once the slaughter and occuaption of palestine is ended we shall talk about what happened 1400 years ago and what rights ashkenazi non semitic jews have in relation to palestine.
How about condemning the mentally deranged killers from spilling goyim blood here and now or is that too much to ask of your humnanity.
I say once more show me evidence that jews were killed for being jews.

(166) 2009-01-14 18:16:15

seb:

[quote=seb]As I said before- SILVERLJ - you're a mere amateur. As an apologist and collaborator of Zionazi killers you really must try harder when bleating out your verbal diarrhoea.

— SilverLJ

Abuse is what Zionazis do to their victims. I am merely exposing you as a collaborator and apologist of Zionazis which is a label you seem to be wearing with pride.

(167) 2009-01-14 22:47:10

omar:

Silver you are funny - now u wanna claim Madina for the Jews and have Muhammad pbuh a foreigner in Madina. You know somehow I can relate toave not fared w that. Afterall as a Londoner I do feel like a foreigner in Birmingham

You distort history Silver. When the prophet came to Madina on the invitation of the tribes of Madina he established what can still be considered a modern is a city state with a bill of rights and was at pains to accomodate the jewish community.

History records the constant treachery of the jewish tribes and the cancer that they were in Madina. Yes they were ruthlessly slaughtered, but only the fighting men and only after they themselves chose the arbiter.

Yes women have not fared well in muslim history but compared to their history in europe apart from the 100 years they fared so much better. Women did however fare a lot better in the quraan then at the hands of muslims.

As for the prophet pbuh, we know about him then we know of Tony Blair or George Bush. What do u want from us mate? I cant convince anyone to believe in God's existence neither can anyone convince me of his non-existence, but I trust the prophet completely, and believe in God on his account.

We are muslims mate. The prophet will always be our point of reference. If you think he is flawed, then so be it. I trust him completely. enuf said.

Muslims may have a long way to go in terms of our intellectual development in our current state. We are simply way behind and some of the discussions and solutions we come up with are simply laughable. But this is due to many things not least the lack of effort know and many things you will rightly accuse us of.

But we are capable of finding progressive solutions within the framework of the religion and produce great free thinkers just as we did in the first say 3 centuries or so.

Muslims and the west need not be at odds. Indeed intellectually the west is extension of an islamic tradition. Even in terms of our values there is much common ground. Ofcourse in the real world of politics there are issues like with Israel where the west simply abandons positive values.

I have said much without elaboration but such is the nature of this forum

(168) 2009-01-14 23:08:40

yakubu:

fellow citizes of Nigeria
Beinformd that " MAIZUBE FARMS" is wholly owned and operated by Nigerians. It has no foreig partners whatsoever. please pass this message on

(169) 2009-01-15 08:07:52

Shazadkashmir:

Silver you are speaking as though you are a scholar on Middle East history. I mean at least get your facts right, you are confusing defence with attack. Could I ask from what your source is?

(170) 2009-01-15 10:07:45

SilverLJ:

[quote=seb]As I said before- SILVERLJ - you're a mere amateur. As an apologist and collaborator of Zionazi killers you really must try harder when bleating out your verbal diarrhoea.

— seb

Abuse is what Zionazis do to their victims. I am merely exposing you as a collaborator and apologist of Zionazis which is a label you seem to be wearing with pride.

— SilverLJ

Abuse is what empty headed Muslims do to those who question them. I am merely exposing you as a collaborator and apologist for Islam which is a label you seem to be wearing with pride.

(171) 2009-01-19 16:17:28

SilverLJ:

Omar: I enjoyed reading you post may I just add a few comments

"You distort history Silver. When the prophet came to Madina on the invitation of the tribes of Madina he established what can still be considered a modern is a city state with a bill of rights and was at pains to accommodate the Jewish community.

History records the constant treachery of the jewish tribes and the cancer that they were in Madina. Yes they were ruthlessly slaughtered, but only the fighting men and only after they themselves chose the arbiter."

Comment - One can find excuses if you like and it was 1400 years ago but if you drive out everyone and kill many hundreds when we know that only a few actively struggled against the Prophet or are you saying every single Jew deserved what they got?

"As for the prophet pbuh, we know [more?]about him then we know of Tony Blair or George Bush. What do u want from us mate? I cant convince anyone to believe in God's existence neither can anyone convince me of his non-existence, but I trust the prophet completely, and believe in God on his account."

This cannot be true but I accept that is your view. But the earliest biographer was Ibn Ishaq (a long time after) and we do not have a copy of that. We only know about it because it's quoted in other places.

"We are muslims mate. The prophet will always be our point of reference. If you think he is flawed, then so be it. I trust him completely. enuf said. "

That is a matter for you but it is problematic if you say his every act is t be followed. Take the Medina Massacre, the Prophet approved so does that mean if any one disagrees or attacks us we must drive them out or slaughter them? Moses told us not to kill but he himself oversaw the slaughter of 3,000 at one time but no Jew or Christian would take that as an example follow.

"Muslims may have a long way to go in terms of our intellectual development in our current state. We are simply way behind and ...."

I don't think think this is true in the sense that brain power or knowledge has nothing to do with being a Muslim or Christian or whatever. However, I do think Muslims can stunt their intellectual growth by being afraid to question their own faith and that fear spills over into many other things and stops development.

The prophet was asked "are you allowed to doubt" and his answer was "yes because it can bring you to the truth". Al Gazali one of Islam's best thinkers was forever plagued by doubt.

(172) 2009-01-19 16:38:04

SilverLJ:

Silver you are speaking as though you are a scholar on Middle East history. I mean at least get your facts right, you are confusing defence with attack. Could I ask from what your source is?

— Shazadkashmir

I am not sure what facts I quoted that you are referring to but I am not aware that anything I said was not a well-attested. There are many books covering the middle east and one of the shortest but most comprehensive is "Islamic Imperialism" by Efraim Karsh published by Yale University. I think this a good source because every single fact is backed up with one or more references so every fact can be authenticated.

(173) 2009-01-19 16:46:34

seb:

SilverLJ - you exceed yourself in your arrogance and ignorance as most Zionazi collaborators and apologists do. Your pseudo-intellectualism is such a poor front for that rather rabied Zionazi tendency you try ever so hard to conceal.

(174) 2009-01-20 01:42:00

deen:

You hate Muslims, Unfortunately you have that luxury, and on the other hand the civilian population in Gaza don’t have that luxury, their daily concern is to find means to heat up babies’ milk, elder’s daily meals and this is a direct result of to the economical persecution by American leaders and its HORS. What the Hell the Israelis complaining about, now you got it too easy. Israeli keep justifying murder of their neighbours in the name of security, naturally you will never feel secure as long you try to dictate your rules on your neighbours. All you are doing is leaving your kids a life full of war and insecurity with their neighbours. They will not talk to HAMAS, So they should get rid of this crazy corrupt prime minister and elect someone who can.

Apparently Israeli gets billions of US tax dollars to inject democratic in middle-east, and all they can manage is “I will not talk to Hamas”, both need to talk to UN if you have noting to hide, well for that amount of money you can even bring democracy to almost anywhere except the Zionist with their neighbours. Unfortunately this Hollywood democracy has taken a turn for the worst, it’s been torn down by killing of innocent civilians all over the world since the end of the Cold-war, ones dear to me are Bosnia, Iraq and now Gaza.

Israel is a member of UN but didn’t proved any evidence to UN why Israel needed to invaded GAZA borders on Nov 04th 2008, as it’s only natural a country will resist it’s borders which it did.

(175) 2009-01-20 04:17:56

SilverLJ:

— seb

Insult is not a form of argument it is simply a way of displaying for all the world to see you abject ignoprmnace

(176) 2009-01-20 16:11:29

seb:

— SilverLJ

I'm just revealing to all the Zionazi collaborator and apologist that you are. If you find the concept insulting then perhaps its progress - but i'll keep watching to make sure....

Insult is not a form of argument it is simply a way of displaying for all the world to see you abject ignoprmnace

— seb

(177) 2009-01-20 23:50:06

seb:

— SilverLJ

— seb

(178) 2009-01-20 23:50:23

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