Israel and Jews are two different things. Jews existed before Israel and they can exist after Israel's demise despite the protests of Zionist who always try to conflate the two very different things.

"Alex" is a Muslim; a dishonest one at that. Most Jews know basic historic facts:

1. Britain did not "give" anything. In 1940s Britain fought against the establishment of Israel.

2. There was no "country" called "Palestine" that was destroyed by the establishment of Israel. Prior to 1917 there was an Ottoman Empire, then there was British Mandate authorized to establish future Jewish and Arab states in Palestine. Jews were called "Palestinians". Palestinian Arabs were called "Arabs".

3. There was large scale discrimination and pogroms against the Jews in the Middle East prior to the establishment of Israel. For example google for "Damascus blood libel". Jews in the Middle East were discriminated in 100s ways: there were profession bans, clothing requirements, building bans, discrimination in law, special taxes...

4. More specifically in Palestine in 1920s Arabs organized massive pogroms against the Jews, exterminating Jewish communities that existed there for generation (e.g. Hebron).

Are you saying the ASHKENAZI are not real jews,rather they are the descendants of the Khazars who are not from the 12 tribes of Israel/Jacob(unlike the sephardi's who are from the bloodline of Abraham/Jacob),who commit atrocities in the name of judaism under the banner of zionism?

Above is a Hyperthetical question to say the least!

Islam does not have the right to exist. Who said that Islam has the right to exist?.

Filthy scummy racist zionists have no right to a land which belongs to the Palestinians.

The caller to Galloway's programme (about a year ago) started off with the completely false idea that Jews were granted rights in "Palestine" because of The Holocaust by Britain. Galloway attacked that concept and asked what right had Britain to give someone else's country to Jews.

But this whole argument is on a false premise and Galloway being able to defeat the point is irrelevant.

'Palestine' was created by Britain and The Allies from the Mandate For Palestine 1922 whereby 'Palestine' was used to create The Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the residual retaining the name 'Palestine' upon which Israel, West Bank and Gaza form a part of. Palestine was equally the home of Arabs and Jews and no land was stolen and given to anyone else. Jews moved to Palestine as immigrants by buying land and expanding their existing centres of population.

Do we say that The Lebanon, Syria and Jordan were stolen from the Ottoman Empire to give to Arabs?

If you say "By what right?" then let's put Syria, The Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine back into a single unit called Palestine and make it one state.

Why does any state have the "right" to exist? I suggest that states exist because they assert the right to do so, and deploy their political social economic military resources to support that claim. Perhaps a parallel question should be "why is that the combined resources and will of the Arab nations failed to prevent Israel existing, and what does this tell us about the nature of those and other societies?"
The delegitimisation of Israel needs to be understood in the context of the general failure of the Palestine state to evolve, and by extension the dangers that the same agument for legitimisation has for other nation states. The Arab Conquest was fundamentally an imperialist / colonialist enterprise which claimed legitmisation based on the alleged prophesies as expounded by Muslims. The imposition of Islamic law etc rests solely upon such belief. What is its legitimacy?

The history of nations is fluid - names change, borders change, the ethnic make-up of the citizens changes: through wars, political movements and struggle. Who 'gives' any country the 'right' to exist? Who 'gave' Poland the right to exist? Who 'gave' the 'Ukraine' the 'right' to exist as a country independent of the USSR? Who 'gave' Pakistan the 'right' to exist?

And if you believe in a Divine Creator - then I would have to suggest that God Himself gave the Jews a right to exist in a land called Israel both 3000 years ago and again 60 years ago. It must be God's will.

cromwell can you please show us the original deeds that god gave to the askenazis that canaan belongs to them 3000 years ago and that palestine belongs to them 60 years ago, unless you think balfour was god.
the racist apartheid state will destroyed by its own hate of others.

The undeniable fact is that Israel was built upon land that has been stolen from the Muslim Arabs, just as the USA was built upon land that was stolen from the native indians and Australia was built upon the land that was stolen from the Aborigines.

When the oil runs out and the USA leaves the Middle East I believe there will be a major war and the winner will take it all.

The painful reality of the situation is that for centuries there has been intercommunal strife in the region now named Palestine. Until relatively historic recent times, Muslims have dominated the region. However the emergence of modern organised Zionism, as opposed to the aspirational & disorganised efforts that preceded it, the ability of the Jews to create an independent national state became a reality. The basic Zionist impulse exists within the Bible at the point of the Exodus, regardless of whether it is sanctioned by God or not. In essence the books of Moses are a manifesto for a nation state.
Prior to the 19th C Muslims were able to maintain and assert their hegemony in the region. With the emergence of modern Zionism they faced a choice; either ally themselves with this modernising impulse or oppose it - there was no middle ground. What happened is that the factions that opposed Zionism were dominant and thus conflict was inevitable. What the Palestinian and other Arab leadership lacked was the understanding that a largely democratic and meritocratic society is able deploy its resources more effectively than feudal societies. The Arab paradigm was rooted in having been dominant over the Jews for centuries and thus they were emotionally and intellectual ill-prepared to engage in war against the Zionist and deal with the consequences of their subsequent failure. In essence the Palestinians, Arabs and by extension Muslims have alargely been in denial about the causes of their Arab failure in 1948, and have addressed this by ever grotesque conspiracy theories and emotive outpourings. This inadequacy has led them into alliances with those who seek to exploit their anguish but provide no objective criticism or practical input to the debate that will produce an achievable solution. The uncomfortable fact is that despite various demographic trends technologically and industrially Israel is advancing at an exponential rate when compared with the neighbouring states, and as a consequence its ability to defend itself in an open existential war increases. This imbalance is so extreme that pro-Palestinians desperately celebrate every vaguely successful attack upon Israel, even though none have had any significant impact upon Israel's will or capacity to continue to exist. The only way that these factions can obtain any apparent success is to launch attacks and then run to hide behind the skirts of the UN once the Israelis retaliate. Despite more than sixty years of open conflict the Palestinians are without a state, and there is absolutely no prospect that the rejectionists can deliver up a Palestinian state without the cooperation of Israel.
The occupation can end tomorrow, but without the Israelis being willing to facilitate its establishment it would be still-born. This is a painful reality that the Palestinian administration in the West Bank acknowledge, but they have to seek cooperation from an Israel that has already been "burnt" by the actions of Arafat and his allies. It will take a vast amount of confidence building to persuade the Israelis to allow Palestinians to freely cross the border. This will never be achieved so long as idiot militias continue to fire rockets and mortars across the border.
The dream that the Palestinians will one day overcome the Israelis is not achievable in the lifetime of anyone alive today. So bite the bullet and accept the anguish and suffering if you choose that option. Rotten world isn't it!

The painful reality of the situation is that for centuries there has been intercommunal strife in the region now named Palestine. Until relatively historic recent times, Muslims have dominated the region. However the emergence of modern organised Zionism, as opposed to the aspirational & disorganised efforts that preceded it, the ability of the Jews to create an independent national state became a reality. The basic Zionist impulse exists within the Bible at the point of the Exodus, regardless of whether it is sanctioned by God or not. In essence the books of Moses are a manifesto for a nation state.
Prior to the 19th C Muslims were able to maintain and assert their hegemony in the region. With the emergence of modern Zionism they faced a choice; either ally themselves with this modernising impulse or oppose it - there was no middle ground. What happened is that the factions that opposed Zionism were dominant and thus conflict was inevitable. What the Palestinian and other Arab leadership lacked was the understanding that a largely democratic and meritocratic society is able deploy its resources more effectively than feudal societies. The Arab paradigm was rooted in having been dominant over the Jews for centuries and thus they were emotionally and intellectual ill-prepared to engage in war against the Zionist and deal with the consequences of their subsequent failure. In essence the Palestinians, Arabs and by extension Muslims have alargely been in denial about the causes of their Arab failure in 1948, and have addressed this by ever grotesque conspiracy theories and emotive outpourings. This inadequacy has led them into alliances with those who seek to exploit their anguish but provide no objective criticism or practical input to the debate that will produce an achievable solution. The uncomfortable fact is that despite various demographic trends technologically and industrially Israel is advancing at an exponential rate when compared with the neighbouring states, and as a consequence its ability to defend itself in an open existential war increases. This imbalance is so extreme that pro-Palestinians desperately celebrate every vaguely successful attack upon Israel, even though none have had any significant impact upon Israel's will or capacity to continue to exist. The only way that these factions can obtain any apparent success is to launch attacks and then run to hide behind the skirts of the UN once the Israelis retaliate. Despite more than sixty years of open conflict the Palestinians are without a state, and there is absolutely no prospect that the rejectionists can deliver up a Palestinian state without the cooperation of Israel.
The occupation can end tomorrow, but without the Israelis being willing to facilitate its establishment it would be still-born. This is a painful reality that the Palestinian administration in the West Bank acknowledge, but they have to seek cooperation from an Israel that has already been "burnt" by the actions of Arafat and his allies. It will take a vast amount of confidence building to persuade the Israelis to allow Palestinians to freely cross the border. This will never be achieved so long as idiot militias continue to fire rockets and mortars across the border.
The dream that the Palestinians will one day overcome the Israelis is not achievable in the lifetime of anyone alive today. So bite the bullet and accept the anguish and suffering if you choose that option. Rotten world isn't it!

Like I said - "if you believe in a Divine Creator" (which I don't) are you not obliged to think that everything is God's Will - particularly if you believe in pre-destination?

And as I said in my previous post - nations and borders change, countries come and go, people move around the world, there are struggles and wars over it. 180 years ago there was no such thing as 'Italy' as a unified state. Now there is - there were wars, political machinations, movements and the will of the people to achieve it. The modern state of Israel (given the 'right' to exist as such by the United Nations) is no different. And the descendants of converts to Judaism are part of the ebb and flow of humanity - as much Jews as the descendants of Hindu converts to Islam are Muslims. I guess as well that a country's existence depends on other countries' recognition of it. Most of the world recognises Israel's existence as an independent sovereign country. Some countries don't. But it does exist as a geo-political entity. You might not like how that happened, but it did happen, just as, for the first time in history, an independent soveriegn state called Palestine might happen one day. Who will confer that 'right' for those considering themselves to be 'Palestinian' to become a state? The United Nations and the recognition of other countries. Just as with Israel. (Unless you think that God has something to do with it).

Cromwell your clarification gives a better reflection of your views.
nation states is a recent concept and it is already being replaced by large groupings of nations.
there shall be a palestine in the near future for all the people of palestine.

Shan believes or seems to believe that the rights of Jews depend on (his determination of) their racial purity. Yet he is the first to accuse others of being racist.

He constantly bangs on about Jews in the Holocaust being - surprise surprise - just like any other group, some behaving badly, some behaving nobly, and who would expect otherwise of a group of people under such circumstance? Yet he thinks those who disagree with him hold to some 'chosen people' thesis (of which he has never presented any evidence).

Indeed he endlessly raises the holocuast while accusing others of raising it endlessly.

He is a truly troubled soul. He needs some therapy for his bitterness and hatred which, in the end, will do him a great deal of self-inflicted damage.

shlemazl, I know you are obviously frustrated because Alex was speechless. You are so naive to say most Jews know historical facts!! Remember Micheal appeared on The Apprentice and did not know the difference between halal and kosher let alone historical facts!!!

Even if Israel is "delegitimised" would there be any significant impact?
The Republic of China was originally recognised as the legitimate government for all of China after WW2, even though the People's Republic had control of the vast majority of the land from 1949 onward. It wasn't until 1971 that the RoC lost its hold on the UN seat for China. However Taiwan RoC has gone from strength to strength, and "delegitimisation" appears to have had very little impact on it. Israel and Taiwan are very similar in being hi-tech industrial nations heavily dependent on exports. Both have vast military expenditure, and both are liberal democracies.
This argument over legitimacy may be compelling but I suspect that even if it were attained the Palestinians, and other Muslism, would not benefit. So in fact it is probably nothing more than a silly distraction.

1. "Britain did not "give" anything...* Specious nonsense. Zionist settlement in Israel was undertaken under tacit colonialist approval. Once Zionists were settled in large enough numbers, and the end of empire was prescient, the Brits and of course huge numbers of Palestinians could then be booted out. And for decades, Zionist pretended to the world that "Israel" was empty when they arrived!

2. There was no "country" called etc... ad naseum. * So al-Nakba was instigated against "Arabs" rather than "Palestinians". That makes all the difference, then.

3. There was large scale discrimination and pogroms against the Jews in the Middle East.. * George is indeed incorrect, but this wild Zionist exageration is laughable. Yes, there was discrimination, but dhimmi and incidents of Judeophobia in the Muslim world prior to Israel do not bear comparison to European anti-Semitism, except in Zionist academic polemic. Most contemporary anti-Jewish racism in the Middle East was imported from Hitler's Europe after WWII.

4. More specifically in Palestine in 1920s Arabs organized massive pogroms against the Jews... * A complete distortion of historical fact, painting incidents like this as part of a long-term trend. The fact was, most ordinary Arabs and Jews got on quite well. But the racist Zionist leadership of pre-WWII Palestine actually discouraged mixing because they shared the anti-Arab racism typical of colonial Europeans -- which is precisely what they were.

Mr. Galloway demonstrates his ignorance of Levantine history when he claims that the region had been a place of peaceful co-existance between Muslims, Christians and Jews. Any serious student of the regional history knows this to be factually incorrect. If it were not so then what would be the purpose of Firman Khatt-i-Shariff and Firman Hamayoun? Mr. Galloway merely acts as a mouth piece of propogandists.
The young man who calls in is also factually wrong, but he is not an authority figure unlike Mr. Galloway. The serious aspect is that so long as such self-deception continues then the region will remained locked in intercommunal conflict.

Today is 16 Dec, known in Bangladesh as Independence Day, in Pakistan as the day of the fall of Dhaka ("Youm Suqoot-e-Dhaka") and in India as the moment Hindus allegedly avenged 1000 years of the Delhi Sultanate and sank the two-nation theory on which the British had created Pakistan in the Bay of Bengal.

Today is a day of mourning and accountability but hardly anyone in Pakistan is prepared to perform this national duty. Before we blame our enemies we have to look inwards ourselves too.

In the Pakistani Government's tradition of honouring traitors and villains and insulting and being ungrateful to national heroes, it may be worthwhile mentioning that no one in what remained of Pakistan after 1971 was ever brought to justice for the debacle.

The fallout of 1971, apart from the surrender of Pakistan to India and the creation of Bangladesh was the displacement of the urdu-speaking population of former East Pakistan to a stateless status in which they exist for the past 37 years in subhuman refugee camps which the Bangladesh government does not allow them to leave.

There were two main types of war-criminal responsible for the breakup of Pakistan in 1971: Civilian war-criminals in the form of Z A Bhutto , whose party manifesto "idhar hum, udhar tum" advocated the break up of Pakistan ( and whose shameful party and progeny still rule the unfortunate Pakistan ) and Military criminals who committed atrocities on East Pakistanis which were reciprocated on the Pakistan-supporting Urdu-speaking population by the Mukti Bahni. None of these criminals was ever brought to justice.

The report of the only ever independent investigation, the Justice Hamoodur Rahman Commission of 1972 was not published by the Punjabi establishment until 2002 when Pervez Musharraf published it, by which time many more 1971's had been committed by the Army in Sind, Balochistan and Karachi ( and nowadays the Tribal areas) and many of the named criminals of 1971 had died.

Today when Pakistan is being attacked both on its Eastern and Western borders the main enemy is the disunity within.

I agree that Israel was created by land the British stole from Muslims after the first world war and therefore Israel should be wiped off the map.

But the British also created a country called Pakistan and look what we have done to it ?

Pakistan has the worst leadership today that any country could expect. Even when India had violated Pakistan's air-space a few days ago , Pakistan's idiot Defence Minister ( who incidentally also happens to be the Commerce Minister) and the sluttish Information Minister became spokespeople for the Indian Air Force instead of raising the issue with Gordon Brown. The comments of the retarded goon Zardari who is Prince Regent to his son went even farther in supporting India.

If we cannot even preserve Pakistan, how can we possibly defeat any enemy India or Israel.

The Qur'an states as follows:

Sura - 17 The Children of Israel
[17:16] "If we are to annihilate any community, we let the leaders commit vast corruption therein. Once they deserve retribution, we annihilate it completely".

That is God's Law of Government and Politics and as applicable to Muslims as it is to Jews. It explains the debacles of Karbala, Granada, Baghdad, Vienna, Moscow, Istanbul, Al-Quds and Dhaka.

Pakistan and every Muslim country in the world has a right to exist but we Muslims are not willing to accord them those rights...

the zionist butt gets mullered on national radio namely a zionist by the name of ALEX,you cant take it so you call him a muslim..hahaha..you really are a scumbag lowlife!

Quite possibly there will be an independent soverign state called Palestine (for the first time in history) but what do you mean by 'for all the people of Palestine'? Do you mean the Palestine with Syria, Jordan and Lebabnon thrown in too,as it once was? What if those countries don't want it? And if you accept that they remain independent of this new Palestine - why? On what grounds? Who would give them the 'right' to stay as they are?

It's very hard to be objective when it comes to the the politics of the middle east unless one is prepared to see shades of grey. Black or white is for the hardliners.

Cromwell you pretend to be neutral but your remarks show the real you,all the people of palestine shall be muslims-jews and christians who have historical residential proof prior to the occupation of palestine.

slickafoe,

As I say this is highly dubious performance. The only people I have ever heard claiming that "Britain gave Jews Israel for Holocaust" (utter bull****) were, in your terminology, "anti-zionists".

Even his accent is WRONG. "ALEX" is a plant.

@Shan

"the people of palestine shall be muslims-jews and christians who have historical residential proof prior to the occupation of palestine."

This is not the position of any of the leading elements in the Palestinian resistance.

It is, in fact, an open call for the ethnic cleansing of the vast majority of residents in Palestine.

Fortunately, the Palestinian resistance is not led, nor influenced, by bigots such as you.

So now when illegal immigrants are deported to their home nations it is ethnic cleansing, but when hundreds of thousands of palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their lands and homes they ran away of their own choice.
when you deport illegal immigrants it is not ethnic cleansing as we do this in britain to remove those who have entered britain illegally.

I am neutral - yours sounds like the George Bush "You're either with us or against us" argument.

I repeat, Shan, your position is not that held by any of the leading players in the Palestinian resistance.

Can I take it that your support of the Palestinian cause, thereby, involves a lack of support for the organisations of the Palestinians themselves?

Not that is a strange position to be in.

Do you work for Mossad?

Cromwell If you are neutral than i am the pope.

Oh deary me,i am under the impression that the zionists have met their match in the form of "GEORGIE G"he has been whooping zionists since he's been on the radio.What a talent he really is.Or is it that they (whooped zionist numbering hundreds)were all plants?WAke up and smell the cwofee!

@Pakistan's right to exist?: Quote
Yet another ignorant dumb ijiot quoting from a concocted rendition of the Quran...trying to misquote and misguide but end up falling flat on their procreated faces

Two states, '67 borders, peace, security, prosperity for all - I'd say that was pretty neutral. Which must make you His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI.

Is there no end to your BS,since when was God an estate agent?There wasn't any country called Israel 3000 odd years ago FACT,please refrain from coming here with your Malicious lies,Israel,im sure you already know is the name for Jacob.The Sephardi(the REAL Jews)have always been in Palestine.Your fake Ashkenazim(ZIONIST) movement on the other hand have NO right!God's will?don't make me laugh,God didn't tell anyone to STEAL Palestinian land and commit genocide with it's people.Learn your history before come here spouting your Drivvle

@Slickafoe: See post 14 - which explains what I meant.

I notice from your comments that you are quite rude to those you disagree with - you'll make yourself ill one day like that - high blood pressure, risk of infarcts etc. Try also not to make the mistake of abusing those who disagree with you as 'a Zionist'. It's silly, politically very immature and will achieve nothing for those you seek to defend.

I'm not sure it is for you to decide who has the right to live in Israel or not. It's a matter for the government of that country.

Cromwell two state solution palestinians get around 18% of palestine and occupiers get 82% i am sure in your mind that is what neutral means.
but in the mind of a real neutral person, all those people whose lands and homes have been stolen, will get their lands and homes back, that is what being just and neutral means.
as stated by me before the most just solution is one nation for all.
so it seems i am not the pope after all.

Oh come off it - don't be so melodramatic! What genocide?? The Palestinian population is increasing! All this rape, millions of dead, theft, burglary, arson, shoplifting, cycling at night without lights on your bike stuff is silly.

Slickafoe, the difference between Ashkenazim and Sephardim is liturgy not ethnicity. It is the equivalent to the difference between Catholic & Orthodox Christian, but not as significants as between Sunni & Shia. The Ashkenazi community was so small in the mid 19th C because a century earlier it had been driven out and its community property destroyed due to its inability to pay jizya tax when it went bankrupt. Prior to that there had been a long standing Ashkenazi community in what became Palestine in 1917.

cromwell further proof your neutrality is being shown by you,what genocide in palestine,maybe you should read the definition of genocide or is it that only the chosen ones suffer genocide and when the chosen ones carry out the genocide then it is not really genocide.
Rsd ashkenazi is a non semitic jew, sephardic is a semitic jew, it has got nothing to do with diffrent strands of judaism, it is diffrence in genetics.
still trying to create your own facts i see.

God gave them the right to exist. It says so in the bible and that is enough.

Wayne Morris, No-one is denying Israel the right to exist, but it is existing at the expense of the legitimate native's-Palestinians.

Can I live in your house at your expense??