| Sick of these Mosques |
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| Wednesday, 03 September 2008 | |
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I will not use the word ‘extreme’ because I believe it’s a propaganda word used to demonise the Muslim community, but if I could replace that word with a slap across some of their faces I would do.
It’s only when you get off your backside and start teaching relevant, sane, urgent and a prioritised version of Islam will they and more importantly the rest of us be able to stop this type of vilification. Readers have left 51 comments.
Clifford Ishii:
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Everytime Muslims spew there hateful message you make my duty as a Biblical Christian that much easier. Thanks, keep it up.
(1)
2008-09-03 05:36:12
Somal:
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I didn't see anything shocking or wrong at all at what was being said at all.
They didn't need to change what they were teaching because it was perfectly fine. Nothing they said distorted Islam whatsoever, not according to Qur'an and Sunnah. But, MPACUK don't follow Sunnah do you. I was more concerned about the Mulsimah spying! It was narrated by Abdullah Ibn Umar that the Prophet, Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said, "Because a Muslim is a brother to other Muslims, he should neither oppress them, nor hand them over to the enemies of the Muslims. Whoever helps his brother, then Allah will help him; whoever saves his brother from distress, Allah will save from distress, and whoever shields his brother, Allah will shield him." - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 43, Number 622
(2)
2008-09-03 08:01:50
Olson:
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And it was going so well until you said
"I say this because anyone who attends a Christian Zionist church or Jewish Zionist synagogue will learn far more hatred that is far more dangerous." I've never heard of a Zionist Jewish synagogue. I've heard of synagogues. Have you been to one and what hatred do they preach? It seems to me that is an unfounded attempt to demonise another group of people. Or did you just mean 'synagogues'?
(3)
2008-09-03 08:56:29
kermit:
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well said, its true these mosque baboons are full of hatred. its time they were exposed and their power stripped.
I just wonder where are all the mosque defenders now? proves its not mpac that hates mosques, its the media and those people who have defended the mosques against change and accountability.
(4)
2008-09-03 09:26:49
Akbar:
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I hope people will watch what views they air in a masjid from now on in case they're being filmed/monitored!
(5)
2008-09-03 09:32:41
Talmud Exposed:
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And it was going so well until you said — Olson"I say this because anyone who attends a Christian Zionist church or Jewish Zionist synagogue will learn far more hatred that is far more dangerous." I've never heard of a Zionist Jewish synagogue. I've heard of synagogues. Have you been to one and what hatred do they preach? It seems to me that is an unfounded attempt to demonise another group of people. Or did you just mean 'synagogues'? Lol its all coming out now! - in another articles posting ou claimed you were not Jewish - in which case you seem very upset about any attack on zionism and particularly obsessed (as a non jew) with the judaism? Hmmmmmm ..... Me thinks your lying - do zonists always lie to those who they think they can decieve? Anyway - A synagogue that teaches the TALMUD (a book with pretty extreme views) and sends its children off to kill in far away lands is pretty extreme to me? no documentary film maker would ever make that .... one wonders why?
(6)
2008-09-03 13:48:21
Paul M:
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Please provide a single piece of evidence of 'hate' being preached at a synagogue in the UK.
If you can, let us know and report it to the police. If not, you should be reported to the police for incitement.
(7)
2008-09-03 14:01:03
krister:
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It feels that channel 4 is being selective with regards to showing the minority rogue elements within any religious institution. I would like to see documentaries of a balance with regards to rogue elements within the Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and even Atheist communities. If I am not viewing this balance, then I will accuse channel 4 of being biased, and possibly participating in contributing to a specific form of racial hatred.
(8)
2008-09-03 14:38:37
Light upon Light:
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I've never heard of a Zionist Jewish synagogue — OlsonThere are people of religious affiliations that believe in the political ideology of Zionism. And the Zionist ideology is pushed and taught in certain places of worship. In the same way a Mosque or Imam who believs in the political ideology of a Khilafa state. Don't be so delirious as to question whether hatred is taught in some places. Or are you too lazy to do any research?
(9)
2008-09-03 14:52:24
Light upon Light:
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I didn't see anything shocking or wrong at all at what was being said at all. — Somal
(10)
2008-09-03 14:55:31
Anon:
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"I hope people will watch what views they air in a masjid from now on in case they're being filmed/monitored"
So you think that as long as a preacher is not being filmed, then it's ok for him to preach whatever he wants? I think the main issue is to stop these people from preaching such extreme views - not because they might be being filmed or monitored but because it is wrong and breeds hatred.
(11)
2008-09-03 15:46:47
Reginald:
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It feels that channel 4 is being selective with regards to showing the minority rogue elements within any religious institution. I would like to see documentaries of a balance with regards to rogue elements within the Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and even Atheist communities. If I am not viewing this balance, then I will accuse channel 4 of being biased, and possibly participating in contributing to a specific form of racial hatred. — kristerWell put - one wonders why Hindu fanatics and Sikh extremists are not equally exposed. I wont even mention Jewish murderers who go to Israel in their thousands to serve in the IDF. The company behind it seems to have targetted Muslims in a number of Islamaphobic programs.
(12)
2008-09-03 16:02:25
Olson:
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"Anyway - A synagogue that teaches the TALMUD (a book with pretty extreme views) and sends its children off to kill in far away lands is pretty extreme to me?
no documentary film maker would ever make that .... one wonders why?" Yes, why? If the same types of things are being said in synagogues then why aren't they exposed?
(13)
2008-09-03 16:12:46
Light upon Light:
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It feels that channel 4 is being selective with regards to showing the minority rogue elements within any religious institution. I would like to see documentaries of a balance with regards to rogue elements within the Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and even Atheist communities. If I am not viewing this balance, then I will accuse channel 4 of being biased, and possibly participating in contributing to a specific form of racial hatred. — kristerHaving said that, Muslims do need to wake up, the programme, although very biased and draconian in many instances, did expose the rubbish that is being taught amongst Muslims. But I suppose there are many unacceptable things being taught in every community, so good comment Krister.
(14)
2008-09-03 16:48:12
Colin the Athiest:
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It feels that channel 4 is being selective with regards to showing the minority rogue elements within any religious institution. I would like to see documentaries of a balance with regards to rogue elements within the Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and even Atheist communities. If I am not viewing this balance, then I will accuse channel 4 of being biased, and possibly participating in contributing to a specific form of racial hatred. — krister
(15)
2008-09-03 19:39:42
Somal:
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I didn't see anything shocking or wrong at all at what was being said at all. — Light upon LightWhatever the question, I would always turn to Qur'an or Sunnah for the answer. Apply this, as you should, and find your answer. http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=12614
(16)
2008-09-03 20:09:54
F. Ewell:
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Clifford Ishii says ''thanks, keep it up''.
Take a chill pill Clifford.
(17)
2008-09-03 23:14:53
Nadeemio:
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Hello MPACUK
Can you please tell everyone what is an 'acceptable' form of Islam to you? Is it that you dont like Islam being stongly against homosexuality? Is it that you dont like that Islamic teachings say explicitly that those who reject Allaah, His final prophet and Islam will go to Hell? Is it that you dont like the agreed upon opinions, by many Islamic schools of thought, on issues like how muslims should transact with non muslims? Can you please just tell everyone what your version of Islam is because I for one am starting to get the impression that its some version that accords with secularist and non-muslim values, beliefs and norms. I hope I'm wrong. Thanks
(18)
2008-09-03 23:30:55
Nadeemio:
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And one more thing MPACUK,
I attended your Media Workshop recently. Can you please confirm. Do you just want Muslims to complain and act against the Media when it only attacks Muslims and Muslim Organisation that MPACUK approves of? Is every other Muslim and Muslim organisation fair game? So you dont like the various Muslims scholars and teachers that were demonised in Channel 4 Dispatches, even though they are well respected and valued in the communities they serve. So MPACUK can you please list the names of the Muslims and Muslim Organisations that you approve of. Somehow, if you really did your homework I dont think you will be able to put many on your list. Also can you please give the name of the person who has written this article so I might complain to the MPACK management.
(19)
2008-09-03 23:37:44
JH:
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"Anyway - A synagogue that teaches the TALMUD (a book with pretty extreme views) and sends its children off to kill in far away lands is pretty extreme to me? — Olsonno documentary film maker would ever make that .... one wonders why?" Yes, why? If the same types of things are being said in synagogues then why aren't they exposed? Presumably one of you can name a synagogue where such things are said.
(20)
2008-09-04 07:51:36
Olson:
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Somali
Where I agree with the sisters was when they said a real believer shouldn't live in a non-Muslim country. Do you agree with that and if you live in the UK when are you leaving?
(21)
2008-09-04 10:07:28
Olson:
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Wrong comments section - apologoes. Should have been on the C4 documentary thread - where, incidentally, there was some support for what the sisters said.
(22)
2008-09-04 10:08:40
zayba:
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nadeemio your posts dont make much sense and your ignorance of mpacuk is quite astounding they have no separate version of Islam why dont you read there about us section and why didnt you question them at the workshop were you even listening there? i was and was impresssed by the examples they gave of their robust defence of Islam and many Muslim orgs and persons for example MCB, Interpal. Why dont you just search action alert on this site i have always valued the actions alerts they have sent many out over the years. You want to complain about this comment you seem to think the author is condoning homosexuality when in fact he or she is saying they dont want to chuck anyone over a cliff and this sort of teaching will not help situation of Muslim i agree completely. If you do wish to throw a homosexual over a cliff go and say so at your nearest police station!
(23)
2008-09-04 11:46:14
Light upon Light:
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'The difference is that their students are the ones entering the Media to make this type of documentary – ours are being taught to spend their time debating with each other about the exact height of their trouser length above the ankle.'
If you don't understand this point nadeemio, then it's you who has his Islamic priorities mixed up.
(24)
2008-09-04 11:58:04
Laila:
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Nadeemio
To volunteer an answer to your question, I've visited Turkey, and what I saw there convinced me that it should be part of the EU. It is unquestionably a European country. And yet it is also without doubt a Muslim country. You should have seen the people (not a village dress/pirate beard in sight)literally hurrying to the mosques as soon as the Azaan was heard. Only minutes earlier non-Muslims were visiting the mosques: evryone was required to take off their shoes, and women were provided with shawls (blue/green, not black). Every Muslim was minding his/her own business. Some men had beards which were smartly trimmed, and not wild looking; their trousers were well-cut and smart, and not in the silly region of 'is it trousers, or is it shorts?'. Some women wore jilbaabs, but they were not crow-costumes, all black and stupid; no, they were in all sorts of colours and very clean and smart. These men and women were proud of their faith, and had self-respect. By contrast what we have in the UK is a tendency for village idiots with pirate beards howling up and down the high streets giving 'Dawa' (don't you know); they oppress 'their' women, and make their tiny daughters wear hijaabs making them a laughing stock in their primary schools. My understanding of MPAC is that it is unquestionably Muslim, but it is NOT Arab. I assume that you are a fan of 7th Century Arab culture/dress etc., and that is more important to you than the essence of Islam? Please remember that Islam means 'peace', it does NOT mean 'dress'.
(25)
2008-09-04 19:02:44
Nadeemio:
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Hello Leila,
you said "....By contrast what we have in the UK is a tendency for village idiots with pirate beards howling up and down the high streets giving 'Dawa' (don't you know); they oppress 'their' women, and make their tiny daughters wear hijaabs making them a laughing stock in their primary schools...." Well you are perfectly entitled to your view. I hope though for MPACUK's sake you are not one of their 'activists' or staff. Your attitute to 'other' muslims demonstrates the 'holier than thou' attitude which manifests itself like a cancer in the Muslim Ummah. The muslim ummah is full of sects, divided into groups, divided into sub-group, divided into cliques - so many of whom pointing thier fingers at others with disdain. We need to stop pointing accusitive fingers at other muslims and calling them the 'bad guy', 'you're wrong and I'm right' You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution. And part of the solution means not jumping on the media bandwagon when they demonise other Muslims. If you have a problem with scholars like Khalid Yaseen, then go speak to them directly, they are always free and open to answer your questions. It's easy to take one line from one of thier talks and completely take it out of context. MPACUK need to be more smart and tactful. The Media Workshop I attended was basically empty, just a pitiful handful of people - I was quite sad about that, because I would like MPACUK to do better. But MPACUK have a serious PR problem in the Muslim Community - they are not really taken seriously, respected or valued. One of the reasons for this is that they dont do themselves any favours by attacking other muslim groups which have rather big followings in themselves. These all add up to a large part, perhaps even majority of the active Muslim community. MPACUK please listen - you can walk down this path of joining the media in attaching respecteed Muslim sholars like the ones demonised in Channel 4 Dispatches - but all you will succeed in doing is maintain your status as some fringe political activist group - that most muslims just have no time for. Worse still you will just create more and more enemies within the Muslim community - what goes around comes around. Alternativly you can defend all muslims as you set out to do, so long as thier opinions fall within legitimate Islamic opinion. That way its Win-win. regards.
(26)
2008-09-05 00:31:23
nadeemio:
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to zayba
you said "....You want to complain about this comment you seem to think the author is condoning homosexuality when in fact he or she is saying they dont want to chuck anyone over a cliff and this sort of teaching will not help situation of Muslim i agree completely...." I'm sure you will find that the majority Islamic opinion for men who engage in homosexual sex is death. Now if MPACUK is going to jump on the media bandwagon when it attacks muslims who inform/teach what the Islamic opinion is on punnishments to do with homosexuality then it should just be clear and let the Muslim community know what its stance is regarding this matter. Then after that perhaps MPACUK can tell everyone what its stance is on the Islamic punnishments to do with fornication, and adultary and drinking alcohol. Will MPACUK deem a Muslim scholar who says 'the Islamic punnishment for fornication is whipping' as a nutjob? Where these teachers/scholars on Dispatches telling muslims to run into the streets of the UK to find homosexual to throw off of tall buildings?? No
(27)
2008-09-05 00:45:01
Olson:
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laila
The etymology of the word 'Islam': it derives from the rot word 'aslama' meaning [he] submitted , resigned, surrenderd [to god's will]. It is not derived from 'salaam', which is itself derived from the hebrew 'shalom'; amen, from the hebrew a-m-n (umein), 'Jehanam' from heb. 'gehenna' etc etc
(28)
2008-09-05 08:58:01
Laila:
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"Olson: Quote
laila The etymology of the word 'Islam': it derives from the rot word 'aslama' meaning [he] submitted , resigned, surrenderd [to god's will]. It is not derived from 'salaam'" Olson, in either case, it does NOT mean 'dress'. That's the point I'm making.
(29)
2008-09-05 10:09:29
Laila:
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Nadeemio,
"Your attitute to 'other' muslims demonstrates the 'holier than thou' attitude which manifests itself like a cancer in the Muslim Ummah. The muslim ummah is full of sects, divided into groups, divided into sub-group, divided into cliques - so many of whom pointing thier fingers at others with disdain. We need to stop pointing accusitive fingers at other muslims and calling them the 'bad guy', 'you're wrong and I'm right' You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution" How interesting that you should say that. Can you spot the irony in your statement(s). And I thought there you were having a go at MPAC. Was not your attitude 'holier than thou'? Now have another read of what I said ("Every Muslim was minding his/her own business"). As for these so-called 'scholars', many of them need to avail themselves of what all professions call 'continuing education'. Have you ever heard any of the 'respected' scholars condemn the presidents/prime ministers/generals of any of the Muslim countries? Have any of them spoken out (loudly, not whispering from the mimbar)against male brutality that is daily inflicted upon women? Has any 'scholar' condemned hereditary 'kingship'(not acceptable in Islam, due to the Quraanic laws on inheritance), when there have been whole dynasties of kings/sultans galore in Muslim countries. The principle of Islam - individual responsibility - means that you cannot follow blindly what another (fallible) human being (however scholarly) says. He/she may be wrong and you won't be able to excuse your transgression on that basis on the Day of Judgement.
(30)
2008-09-05 10:24:14
nadeemio:
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Nadeemio, — Laila"Your attitute to 'other' muslims demonstrates the 'holier than thou' attitude which manifests itself like a cancer in the Muslim Ummah. The muslim ummah is full of sects, divided into groups, divided into sub-group, divided into cliques - so many of whom pointing thier fingers at others with disdain. We need to stop pointing accusitive fingers at other muslims and calling them the 'bad guy', 'you're wrong and I'm right' You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution" How interesting that you should say that. Can you spot the irony in your statement(s). And I thought there you were having a go at MPAC. Was not your attitude 'holier than thou'? Now have another read of what I said ("Every Muslim was minding his/her own business"). As for these so-called 'scholars', many of them need to avail themselves of what all professions call 'continuing education'. Have you ever heard any of the 'respected' scholars condemn the presidents/prime ministers/generals of any of the Muslim countries? Have any of them spoken out (loudly, not whispering from the mimbar)against male brutality that is daily inflicted upon women? Has any 'scholar' condemned hereditary 'kingship'(not acceptable in Islam, due to the Quraanic laws on inheritance), when there have been whole dynasties of kings/sultans galore in Muslim countries. The principle of Islam - individual responsibility - means that you cannot follow blindly what another (fallible) human being (however scholarly) says. He/she may be wrong and you won't be able to excuse your transgression on that basis on the Day of Judgement. Excuse me, but I think you need to realise there is a massive difference between constructive critisism and just insulting and ridiculing other muslims by making fun of their beards and how they dress - especially when they do them to honour the Prophet of Islam and please Allaah. Let me reiterate my point. MPACUK on thier 'about us' section say "MPACUK is a non-profit making organisation working with the community, helping Muslims to help themselves. We are not a charity but a unique Empowerment System; the first of it's kind for Muslims in Europe and it is our aim to defend Muslim interests and Islam throughout Britain and the world." Now in the light of the above MPACUK need to stay true to thier word. They need to defend ALL muslims, not just ones that conform to some notion of Islam they have i.e. one that does not find acceptable Sharia punnishments as defined since the arrival of Islam. I want MPACUK to succeed and I am willing to work with them (and I have in the past), which is something I presume you have not judging from your tone with which you disdained UK Muslims your post.
(31)
2008-09-05 12:26:34
zayba:
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"Where these teachers/scholars on Dispatches telling muslims to run into the streets of the UK to find homosexual to throw off of tall buildings??" But that is what she was doing she was giving them a ruling on what to do with a honmosexual this comment asks what are we to do with that? we do not live in Islamic state we do not have obligation to carry out these punishments, mpacuk are not scholars for them to justify and give you fatawa on punishments you seem to be obsessed with punishing others mpacuk want to make a difference and improve lot of Muslims, combat pro-Israeli lobby/Islamophobia you clearly dont care about these issues, you are the one attacking other Muslims and sarcastically belittling their faith and efforts. Mpacuk have supported and defended Muslims i regularly lobbby my Mp with help from them, they always support scholars/ imams that have been victims of witch hunts seriously do a search on this website. I respect mpacuk i like that they spoke to every single shop in my high street last year and as a result this year i havent seen any Israeli dates on sale that is being proactive and doing some good, if you think simply suppporting the lashing of people or throwing people off cliffs is what the Ummah needs then i dont know what else to say to you, you really dont understand what the Ummah needs.
(32)
2008-09-05 12:48:15
Zahra Jibril:
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By contrast what we have in the UK is a tendency for village idiots with pirate beards howling up and down the high streets giving 'Dawa' (don't you know); they oppress 'their' women, and make their tiny daughters wear hijaabs making them a laughing stock in their primary schools...." — LailaAre you for real?? Are you having a laugh? Lets ignore the insults for time, and lets ignore what you think of "giving dacwa" and just for the sake of it, lets even ignore the oppression of so called women (I don't want to go into the obvious contradiction between culture and religion and your mass generalization you can research that yourself) Then you make the comment about the daughters, and right there you sound like (filling the words here.....) Please check what ISLAM says about all three things you've commented on before you open your mouth again in this month of Ramadan, for your own sake. As you said it is your individual responsibility. Aside form that, you just SOUND like “presentation” is most important to you, and you will make fun of the Sunnah and Quran to elevate it and emphasis its importance. If I am wrong than my apologies, but if I am right then you need a crash course with the profession called "Islamic education". Take this in the nicest possible way and don’t get offended. As for the article; It advocates for learning of Islam only that which you are going to use, it missed the whole concept of general Islamic education, and it purposely takes things out of contexts. I must have missed the part where the teachers/scholars told the students to practice sharia law in Britain, I must have also missed the part where they told them to run into the streets, find homosexual and then throw them off of a buildings. There is a clear difference between application and knowledge. So as usual just an emotional rant misdirected. I don’t expect MPAC to defend them, for the simple reason that these scholars advocate for the complete opposite of what MPAC advocates for; pleasing the western society, appearing liberal, moderate and compliant was never their aim or intention. Therefore I expect MPAC will just add to the fire.
(33)
2008-09-05 15:31:37
Nadeemio:
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Dear MPACUK,
My local Masjid - Masjid al Taweed in Leyton was one of the first few Masjids that opened its doors to you and supported your work. Some of the Muslims who were demonised in that channel 4 Dispatches program have good relations with Majid Al Tawheed and they are valued and well respected. In fact we could say they belong to a simimar kind of 'group' of Muslim - that is - salafi/ahle hadith/ahle sunna wal jammah. When we want to defend Muslims in the UK and around the world, there is no point in cherry picking who we actually want to defend. If we choose to defend only those muslims who we like and agree with we wont find many to defend. And If we do that then our intentions seem rather disingenuous and our work may even prove counter productive and create more division in enmity amongst muslims. Please remove this divisive and troublemaking article. 'sick of these mosques' - and lets try to be a proper ummah. Thanks
(34)
2008-09-05 15:35:50
nadeemio:
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"Where these teachers/scholars on Dispatches telling muslims to run into the streets of the UK to find homosexual to throw off of tall buildings??" But that is what she was doing she was giving them a ruling on what to do with a honmosexual this comment asks what are we to do with that? we do not live in Islamic state we do not have obligation to carry out these punishments, — zaybaNo one, certainly not anyone in that diabolical channel 4 dispatches program is/was telling muslim to go and carry out sharia punnishments on homosexual in the UK, rather they were giving the Islamic sharia teaching on the presribed punnishment for such evil. The punnishment according to various Islamic schools of thought is that those who carrry out homosexual sex are to be punnished with death. Islamic sharia punnishments are enforced under an islamic state. No one is making this up - that's the teaching. Shall we just hide it away and pretend it doesnt exist? Shall we just call anyone who teaches this as a 'nutjob', 'extremist'? Well you can do that if you want but many many muslims will not disdain Divinely insprired islamic teaching as the secularist and enemies of Islam what muslims to do.
(35)
2008-09-05 15:45:33
Fuzzy:
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Nadeemio, — nadeemio"Your attitute to 'other' muslims demonstrates the 'holier than thou' attitude which manifests itself like a cancer in the Muslim Ummah. The muslim ummah is full of sects, divided into groups, divided into sub-group, divided into cliques - so many of whom pointing thier fingers at others with disdain. We need to stop pointing accusitive fingers at other muslims and calling them the 'bad guy', 'you're wrong and I'm right' You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution" How interesting that you should say that. Can you spot the irony in your statement(s). And I thought there you were having a go at MPAC. Was not your attitude 'holier than thou'? Now have another read of what I said ("Every Muslim was minding his/her own business"). As for these so-called 'scholars', many of them need to avail themselves of what all professions call 'continuing education'. Have you ever heard any of the 'respected' scholars condemn the presidents/prime ministers/generals of any of the Muslim countries? Have any of them spoken out (loudly, not whispering from the mimbar)against male brutality that is daily inflicted upon women? Has any 'scholar' condemned hereditary 'kingship'(not acceptable in Islam, due to the Quraanic laws on inheritance), when there have been whole dynasties of kings/sultans galore in Muslim countries. The principle of Islam - individual responsibility - means that you cannot follow blindly what another (fallible) human being (however scholarly) says. He/she may be wrong and you won't be able to excuse your transgression on that basis on the Day of Judgement. Excuse me, but I think you need to realise there is a massive difference between constructive critisism and just insulting and ridiculing other muslims by making fun of their beards and how they dress - especially when they do them to honour the Prophet of Islam and please Allaah. Let me reiterate my point. MPACUK on thier 'about us' section say "MPACUK is a non-profit making organisation working with the community, helping Muslims to help themselves. We are not a charity but a unique Empowerment System; the first of it's kind for Muslims in Europe and it is our aim to defend Muslim interests and Islam throughout Britain and the world." Now in the light of the above MPACUK need to stay true to thier word. They need to defend ALL muslims, not just ones that conform to some notion of Islam they have i.e. one that does not find acceptable Sharia punnishments as defined since the arrival of Islam. I want MPACUK to succeed and I am willing to work with them (and I have in the past), which is something I presume you have not judging from your tone with which you disdained UK Muslims your post. Nadeem, Defending the Ummah is one thing. But Muslims who spread lies about Islam are attacking the Ummah itself. If you are a Sunni (orthodox Muslim), then the scripture we derive our guidance on is based on the Quran and the hadith of Bukhari and Muslim. Using these scriptures, please find me a quote saying gays should be thrown off a cliff. These 'demonised' scholars you seem to respect were spreading this sort of mis-information. If you do agree with these scholars, then perhaps you should follow their advice and leave for the next Muslim-friendly country.
(36)
2008-09-05 17:01:16
Krister:
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It feels that channel 4 is being selective with regards to showing the minority rogue elements within any religious institution. I would like to see documentaries of a balance with regards to rogue elements within the Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and even Atheist communities. If I am not viewing this balance, then I will accuse channel 4 of being biased, and possibly participating in contributing to a specific form of racial hatred. — Colin the Athiest
(37)
2008-09-05 17:08:36
krister9000:
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TO: COLIN THE ATHEIST, you should note: Charles Darwin’s social Darwinism was a catalyst for the slave trade, the holocaust (as Hitler was an admirer of Charles Darwin's works) and many other racist atrocities. As an Atheist you should note I’m a biologist. Modern biochemistry, DNA, and Embryology are all pointing towards a ‘designer’. The essence of nonsensical belief in 'chance' violates both science and reason. In fact, any rational mind is quite able to conceive that no complex entity can come into being spontaneously, by chance, but absolutely must be the product of a conscious plan. P.S I’m open for an intellectual debate. Hopefully you will be accepting Islam once I’ve finished with you.
(38)
2008-09-05 17:12:17
laila:
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No, Nadeemio, please excuse ME.
What most of these, essentially (i.e. in essence)Whabis (rather than 'Muslims'), do is to adhere to appearances (thus the beard, the trouser, jilbaab etc.). Next time you see one, ask him/her if he/she is honouring the Prophet (pbuh) and pleasing Allah in his/her heart. Will you see compassion? I doubt it. Will you see tolerance? Don't hold your breath. Will you detect a thirst for scientific knowledge? I think you will hear only madrassah-speak (you know: 'ulema', 'bida', 'sahabah' or similar words). One thing is quite certain, you won't have the words 'rahmaan', and 'raheem' come to mind, as you hear them speak. With their worship of appearance, they think they are being more 'Islamic'. But they risk fooling only themselves and the illiterate.
(39)
2008-09-05 17:52:26
nadeemio:
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Nadeem, Defending the Ummah is one thing. But Muslims who spread lies about Islam are attacking the Ummah itself. If you are a Sunni (orthodox Muslim), then the scripture we derive our guidance on is based on the Quran and the hadith of Bukhari and Muslim. Using these scriptures, please find me a quote saying gays should be thrown off a cliff. These 'demonised' scholars you seem to respect were spreading this sort of mis-information. If you do agree with these scholars, then perhaps you should follow their advice and leave for the next Muslim-friendly country. You know to accuse another muslim of lying is a pretty serious accusation. If you want to spread such accusations then perhaps you should first clarify with these teachers/scholars shown on this Dispatches program where they got this teaching from. I wounder if you are qualified to say they are lying? Perhaps you are I dont know, perhaps you are a faqee. I also wounder whether you have an underlying issues about 'gays being thrown off cliffs'. Is it that you just dont accept that the punnishment under sharia for those who commit gay sex is death OR is it that you just disagree with the method of execution? I really dont think Muslim teachers/scholars just make things up. The fact is their is difference of opinion of many issues and I wouldnt be surprised if the punnishment of gays in a sharia state will be another one. I know one opinion is to crush gays based on what happend to the gays in Prophet Lot's time (peace be on upon him). just telling you the opinion. Dont take my word for it - see an aalim or faqee. Anyways, the bottom line is I dont think it is good Islamic mannners or etiqutte to vilify other muslims because you dont agree with thier opinion on something. We have too much of this going on. We need to change other wise things will stay the same.
(40)
2008-09-05 22:36:45
nadeemion:
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No, Nadeemio, please excuse ME. — lailaWhat most of these, essentially (i.e. in essence)Whabis (rather than 'Muslims'), do is to adhere to appearances (thus the beard, the trouser, jilbaab etc.). Next time you see one, ask him/her if he/she is honouring the Prophet (pbuh) and pleasing Allah in his/her heart. Will you see compassion? I doubt it. Will you see tolerance? Don't hold your breath. Will you detect a thirst for scientific knowledge? I think you will hear only madrassah-speak (you know: 'ulema', 'bida', 'sahabah' or similar words). One thing is quite certain, you won't have the words 'rahmaan', and 'raheem' come to mind, as you hear them speak. With their worship of appearance, they think they are being more 'Islamic'. But they risk fooling only themselves and the illiterate. You know its so easy for one muslim to pour scorn on another muslim with the kind of rhetoric you use in your post. It's so easy to find some reason to call another muslim a 'muslim' (aka kaafir -if you were honest). This is just same old same old... Muslims will always be up for slaughter and downtroden whilst they are divided, this is why Islam puts so much emphasis on the need to be united. Division and infighting in the Muslim ummah is all about the individual attitude. We should ask ourselves if our attitudes are part of the problem or part of the solution. I hope MPAC read your post. Because they will see exactly the kind of attitude which if they espoused would totally finish them off as a legitimate and effective servant for the WHOLE Muslim community.
(41)
2008-09-05 22:47:30
Somal:
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I like it the way the refer to the usage of Saudi brand called Wahhabism, in reality what they characterise as extremist intepretation is broadly the position of the four madhaabs and scholars as far as history can remember.
(42)
2008-09-06 07:40:50
Somal:
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Somali — OlsonWhere I agree with the sisters was when they said a real believer shouldn't live in a non-Muslim country. Do you agree with that and if you live in the UK when are you leaving? Yes, if their was a true Islamic state out their. But, their is not.
(43)
2008-09-06 07:42:13
Olson:
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Nadeemio/laila
(For what it's worth:) an interesting exchange - which goes right to the heart of matters. Your debate needs to take place on a much, much bigger stage. It is now, and will be, the most important battle of our times.
(44)
2008-09-06 09:30:45
Colin the Athiest:
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TO: COLIN THE ATHEIST, you should note: Charles Darwin’s social Darwinism was a catalyst for the slave trade, the holocaust (as Hitler was an admirer of Charles Darwin's works) and many other racist atrocities. As an Atheist you should note I’m a biologist. Modern biochemistry, DNA, and Embryology are all pointing towards a ‘designer’. The essence of nonsensical belief in 'chance' violates both science and reason. In fact, any rational mind is quite able to conceive that no complex entity can come into being spontaneously, by chance, but absolutely must be the product of a conscious plan. P.S I’m open for an intellectual debate. Hopefully you will be accepting Islam once I’ve finished with you. — krister9000
(45)
2008-09-06 09:39:20
Fuzzy:
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Nadeem,
I gave an opportunity to prove me wrong wrong and give me examples from the Quran and Sunni hadith, with respect to throwing gays of cliffs. You failed. I do know where these so called scholars get this particular information from and it's certainly not from Sunni scripture. And no I am not a Fakih but my grand father and his brothers are. And they are disgusted by such views. Yes, these scholars are liars and would say that to their face given the opportunity. How dare they deliberately misrepresent our faith. The punishment for homosexuality in Islam is very specific and as it is Quranic law, can not be modified. Further, the act of homosexuality has to be witnessed by 4 people and only if the person is non-repentant is the punishment carried out. And there is flexibility in the Quran as to what form that punishment can take. It does not have to be execution. I will give you chapter and verse of the Quran if you wish but I'm more interested in how you study the Quran. Nadeem, Defending the Ummah is one thing. But Muslims who spread lies about Islam are attacking the Ummah itself. If you are a Sunni (orthodox Muslim), then the scripture we derive our guidance on is based on the Quran and the hadith of Bukhari and Muslim. Using these scriptures, please find me a quote saying gays should be thrown off a cliff. These 'demonised' scholars you seem to respect were spreading this sort of mis-information. If you do agree with these scholars, then perhaps you should follow their advice and leave for the next Muslim-friendly country. You know to accuse another muslim of lying is a pretty serious accusation. If you want to spread such accusations then perhaps you should first clarify with these teachers/scholars shown on this Dispatches program where they got this teaching from. I wounder if you are qualified to say they are lying? Perhaps you are I dont know, perhaps you are a faqee. I also wounder whether you have an underlying issues about 'gays being thrown off cliffs'. Is it that you just dont accept that the punnishment under sharia for those who commit gay sex is death OR is it that you just disagree with the method of execution? I really dont think Muslim teachers/scholars just make things up. The fact is their is difference of opinion of many issues and I wouldnt be surprised if the punnishment of gays in a sharia state will be another one. I know one opinion is to crush gays based on what happend to the gays in Prophet Lot's time (peace be on upon him). just telling you the opinion. Dont take my word for it - see an aalim or faqee. Anyways, the bottom line is I dont think it is good Islamic mannners or etiqutte to vilify other muslims because you dont agree with thier opinion on something. We have too much of this going on. We need to change other wise things will stay the same.
(46)
2008-09-06 16:40:51
nadeemio:
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Nadeem, — FuzzyI gave an opportunity to prove me wrong wrong and give me examples from the Quran and Sunni hadith, with respect to throwing gays of cliffs. You failed. I do know where these so called scholars get this particular information from and it's certainly not from Sunni scripture. And no I am not a Fakih but my grand father and his brothers are. And they are disgusted by such views. Yes, these scholars are liars and would say that to their face given the opportunity. How dare they deliberately misrepresent our faith. The punishment for homosexuality in Islam is very specific and as it is Quranic law, can not be modified. Further, the act of homosexuality has to be witnessed by 4 people and only if the person is non-repentant is the punishment carried out. And there is flexibility in the Quran as to what form that punishment can take. It does not have to be execution. I will give you chapter and verse of the Quran if you wish but I'm more interested in how you study the Quran. Nadeem, Defending the Ummah is one thing. But Muslims who spread lies about Islam are attacking the Ummah itself. If you are a Sunni (orthodox Muslim), then the scripture we derive our guidance on is based on the Quran and the hadith of Bukhari and Muslim. Using these scriptures, please find me a quote saying gays should be thrown off a cliff. These 'demonised' scholars you seem to respect were spreading this sort of mis-information. If you do agree with these scholars, then perhaps you should follow their advice and leave for the next Muslim-friendly country. You know to accuse another muslim of lying is a pretty serious accusation. If you want to spread such accusations then perhaps you should first clarify with these teachers/scholars shown on this Dispatches program where they got this teaching from. I wounder if you are qualified to say they are lying? Perhaps you are I dont know, perhaps you are a faqee. I also wounder whether you have an underlying issues about 'gays being thrown off cliffs'. Is it that you just dont accept that the punnishment under sharia for those who commit gay sex is death OR is it that you just disagree with the method of execution? I really dont think Muslim teachers/scholars just make things up. The fact is their is difference of opinion of many issues and I wouldnt be surprised if the punnishment of gays in a sharia state will be another one. I know one opinion is to crush gays based on what happend to the gays in Prophet Lot's time (peace be on upon him). just telling you the opinion. Dont take my word for it - see an aalim or faqee. Anyways, the bottom line is I dont think it is good Islamic mannners or etiqutte to vilify other muslims because you dont agree with thier opinion on something. We have too much of this going on. We need to change other wise things will stay the same. Hi fuzzy, sorry but I think engaging in 'muppet' fiqh is pointless - you're no expert and neither am I. So i'm not going to bother finding 'evidence' to back the stance of those scholers on Dispatches. You need to approach them if you believe so pasionately that they are wrong. I think this is the proper Islamic etiqeute - not just slagging them off behind thier backs. It's easy to slag people off behind thier backs. The Muslims 'ummah' is replete with this kind of behaviour and this is one of the reasons why it is in such a mess. Attacking other muslims is a fruitless excercise. We need to stop this, especially in these times. But i'm beginning to think what i'm saying is falling on deaf ears on this site.
(47)
2008-09-08 01:14:40
nadeemio:
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I will give you chapter and verse of the Quran if you wish but I'm more interested in how you study the Quran. — Fuzzyfuzzy, dont worry about how I study the quran, on Judgement Day you wont be asked about how I (Nadeemio) studied the Quran. Come-on get a book on Conflict Resolution and Negotiation and strengthen your skills at building bridiges and getting on with others even if they have opionions you dont like.
(48)
2008-09-08 01:21:27
Fuzzy:
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Nadeem,
You are quite right, I am not an expert. But I do know that Muslims should not just listen to Islamic scholars but study the Quran for themselves and make their own mind up. Unless you are a Shia, in which case you listen to your Imam. In Sunni Islam, you have a direct path to God via the Quran. To rely on another person to take along this journey while you are completely blind is not the Sunni way. And I'm certainly not going behind anyones back. The internet is a public forum. The fact that you are unwilling to find passages in the Quran to back up these scholars, proves you are either a fool are in a state of denial. And given the opportunity, I would gladly go toe-to-toe with these so called scholars. Anyway, thank you for proving me right. You can not find a single passage to back up these scholars. Take care, Fuzzy. Ramazan Mubarak.
(49)
2008-09-08 10:35:21
Fuzzy:
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I have no interest in building bridges and getting on with those who dilberately distort the faith.
They must be either engaged in debate and should their views remain unchanged, the British Ummah should isolate them for the loonies they are. The Muslims who do not wish to engage constructively with British society should follow their own advice: Leave and live in a Muslim country. I will give you chapter and verse of the Quran if you wish but I'm more interested in how you study the Quran. — nadeemiofuzzy, dont worry about how I study the quran, on Judgement Day you wont be asked about how I (Nadeemio) studied the Quran. Come-on get a book on Conflict Resolution and Negotiation and strengthen your skills at building bridiges and getting on with others even if they have opionions you dont like.
(50)
2008-09-08 10:43:14
nadeemio:
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fuzzy,
when you accuse others of lying the burden of proof is on you. if someone muslim say the punnishment for homosexuals is to throw them off a cliff then you cant just say they are lying even if they are wrong. they might have taken that on good faith from someone they trust. as i said before to accuse someone of lying is serious accusation. lying is when you INTENTIONALLY give false information, which you know is false. And this is all same old finger pointing viz "those who dilberately distort the faith". We muslims just love pointing fingers at each other, at 'those who distort the faith' - 'you distort the faith', 'no, you distort the faith' ..ad afinitum - It acheives nothing but fitnah in these times. I bid you farewell as this will be my last post to you and i've made my points peace
(51)
2008-09-08 17:28:53
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You know I’m sick to death of these Mosques and so called Muslim educators after watching the second part of Undercover Mosque. 










