| Live Blog: Undercover Mosques - The Return |
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| Monday, 01 September 2008 | |
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If you miss the 8 o’clock showing you can catch it again on Channel 4+1. (Channel 135 on Sky).
This evening I’ll be blogging the 9 o’clock showing live, but if you’ve watched it already do post comments, I’ll try to keep up. 20:55 OK, formalities first. The name is Musab, most of you will know me as an admin on the forum and I have to apologies for missing the 8 o’clock showing. It happens when you work on a voluntary basis. Can I also say that anything I say on this blog is my opinion and not that of MPACUK. But I promise not to cause trouble. 21:00 Just to remind you guys, I'm on Channel 4 + 1 (135 sky) where the documentary is being shown again. 21:01 We start of with a recap of last years documentary. The word "Kill" has been repeated a few times now, and something about Regent Street Mosque being the most "Important and Influential" Mosque in the country. How did they work that out? Never the less this Mosque was featured heavily last time. 21:04 Sorry to show my ignorance but how come sisters wear Hijab so strictly in a women only area?
21:05 A lady teacher, Umm Meyra and some students are saying that gays are to be "killed" and someone suggests that they should be thrown of a cliff, did I hear that right? Another sister chips in that they should be stoned. 21:11 Whilst Umm Amira is away training in Saudi (?) Umm Salim is covering for her. So far she has said two possibly contentious things. Firstly "hate those who hate Allah" and also how she knows a girl who smiles at non-Muslims but scowls at her. I can think of a few explanations for those statements, but it is all about intent isn't it? 21:15 The spokesperson and public face of Regent Street Mosque is a Saudi Diplomat! So that explains why they always start Ramadan and Eid with the Saudi's.
21:19 Murtaza Khan, a teacher somewhere in the UK doesn't like women getting their own state benefits. He says that this is a deception from the Shaytan. Another Ozzie scholar, takes it to another level like only the Ozzies can, when he claims that Muslims should not mix with those who "do not prostrate in front of Allah". 21:22 None of the Muslims criticised in the documentary have actually appeared on the documentary. They've all replied in writing. I wonder why? 21:23 The first break. Let me grab some coffee, but my views so far are that whilst some pretty horrible statements have been made so far by some scholars, the documentary makers have tried to sneak in other statements which could be explained perfectly well given some context. 21:26 The undercover journalist is going to attend a "private study circle" so that sisters can come for individual fatwa's. That's a useful service I guess for those who don't want to discuss things publicly. 21:28 Fatwa: You can't go anywhere without your husband. Oh look, it's Rogue from the X-Men, sorry it's Muslim lady scholar, Dr May Yamaani. This is the first time I've heard of any of the two anti-Wahabi female Muslim scholars (including Prof Madawi al Rasheed), would love to know more about them. Most of what these two academics are saying does make sense. 21:32 So they've just picked up a book that is being sold at the front of the Mosque, by Saudi Scholar Bin Baz. Some pretty extreme stuff. Things like marrying children off before puberty. The same lady scholars I mentioned before are also experts on the Saudi Government, claiming that the Saudi Government and their Kings (very Islamic) have spent millions on saudi schools all over the world. 21:37 Come on! The Imam crying is below the belt. They say he was crying over a verse saying that all Jews should be killed. I'm not sure of the full context of the verse, but seriously. 21:39 A former teacher of King Fahd Academy says the school teaches some pretty nasty things about Jews and Christians. I'm sure this is an old story. Gordon Brown shaking hands with an Saudi king. Ah, what we have to do for cheap oil. 21:42 Islamophobe Alert! I was wondering when they were going to feature one of them. They interviewed Anthony Glees. For those of you that don't know, this is the chap that always copies and pastes the same report at the start of every school term warning how nearly all Muslim students are extremists. The media oblige, of course. 21:46 Did I hear that right? A female extremist scholar says that a women who dresses like a man should be killed. Dear oh dear. 21:49 The focus now moves to WAMY, where the reporter attends a Quran class. The reporter is obviously Pakistani as she speaks pretty good Urdu. 21:50 The producers of this documentary sure don't like Saudis. The reporter now has a friend and they both are escorted to a secret library full of books from Saudi Arabia. Some condemn terrorism, some are neutral and some (queue scary music) some are written by Bin Baz! 21:51 The Saudi goverment is shipping Quran's with their own re-mixed commentary. Something that pretty much annoys our goodie Scholar, Musa Admani. 21:53 Some more statements from the Saudi Government. *YAWN*. Can we have some more scary stuff please? 21:54 Oh yes, scary stuff. Its Denis MacShane. Previously known as Denis Matyjaszek, a Polish immigrant (if I remember right) who just hates Muslims. And he certainly doesn't like MPAC. Must be a good thing. 21:55 Ghayasuddin Siddiqui has featured a lot in this documentary deriding Saudis every chance he gets. Overall there were no mainstream Muslim scholars on the show, which is a relief. It seems that all the documentary makers managed to expose was a small group of people who I'm sure in good time Muslims will isolate. These type of extremists are far and few apart and I'm sure you will find them in Judaism, Hinduism and Christianity. Looking forward to Undercover Synagogues, even Undercover Churches. Thanks and Salaam Alaikum. I'm going to try and make Tarawih prayer. Update 1: Can I remind people, that if you register and then login your comments will show immediately. If you don't register, they will be displayed when someone on this side has time to publish them. Update 2: This article has been edited to remove typos and other grammatical errors.           Readers have left 97 comments.
Colin:
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One thing one of the women ranters said was that true Muslims should emigrate. If she meant Muslims of her kind , I agree immediately and entirely.
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2008-09-01 21:04:29
safnor:
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Love the blogging MPAC!
I cant believe Regents Park Mosque have got themselves into another mess....
(3)
2008-09-01 21:22:57
Colin the Athiest:
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MPAC, if the programme is correct, there must be a few more Mosques that are doing the same thing, indoctrinating people against the UK. As an athiest, I follow no one, but the rule of law. Muslims must come to their senses and see this madness for what it is. In my opinion, Whabbi doctrine will eventually cause a fight, that is not in the interests of anyone. Muslims must battle it. Why is it C4 has to do the unmasking? Where are the Muslims arguing against it?
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2008-09-01 21:26:30
Taz:
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The mosques have to take responsibility for who is preaching on their premises. A more professional approach to management is needed.
They also need to teach authentic Islam.
(5)
2008-09-01 21:29:26
Wahabi's again???:
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Love the blogging MPAC! — safnorI cant believe Regents Park Mosque have got themselves into another mess.... Damned Saudi twits cant do anything right. Thats the prob with these ultra wahabi type - they are all mad! Sadly all muslims will look bad because those damned fools cant think like normal human beings. Still it does by the sound of it have a fair amount of stitch up!
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2008-09-01 21:57:55
Colin:
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Here's a thought to make you laugh. 'The West Midlands police will charge some of the female "Kill, kill, kill" ranters with incitement to kill".
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2008-09-01 22:02:52
MAQ:
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Why is it that whenever segregation and lack of cohesion was mentioned, there was always a veiled woman on the screen?
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2008-09-01 22:19:12
Evil Imagery:
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Why is it that whenever segregation and lack of cohesion was mentioned, there was always a veiled woman on the screen? — MAQVery well spotted - its how they subtly put the thought in peoples head - make them hate us, and make us hate ourselves. Malcolm X did a great speech about this very thing here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zPdkKuEXFM&feature=related
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2008-09-01 22:30:25
wendy mann:
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"21:22 None of the Muslims criticised in the documentary have actually appeared on the documentary. They've all replied in writing. I wonder why?"
because they will manipulate the spoken word and clip it without actual context. if it is written it is wyswyg and generally cannot so easily be manipulated if reported in full. as far as the programme went nothing so much as a few clips without full context so cant really consider it as a reality or manipulated by ch4.
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2008-09-01 22:57:51
markuk:
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Here we go again hold on tight because the story will get completely twisted now because MAQ has decided to pick out something he sees wrong and can try to blame filthy channel 4 and not mention anything whatsoever about how evil some of his brothers can be. Now this topic will be completely diverted away from muslims being evil to channel 4 making up stories.
(11)
2008-09-01 23:02:03
Islamic Torch:
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Surprise surprise - no Cilla is not back. The irony is if you have a hidden camera your only purpose is to intice others to give an answer to something you put to them - and if you don't get the desired reply - you try a different question - Take one oops , take two oops and take three tahts the one role it. And what is it with Saudi Arabia - everytime you get some joker - who hates the Arabs and decides to show his / her face on dispatches and makes out they know better then anyone else - and the joker Cook calls himself a convert - the Arabs only mistake was they had that fool teaching kids.
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2008-09-01 23:36:50
joe:
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they put their responce in writing because its easier to lie on paper than in person anyway whats all the fuss? we know its main stream Islamic teaching nothing new about islam. what funny is all the so called moderates who say its someone else's interpretation of it, thats the lie and its only the tip of the Islamic iceberg. wait till they are up to 20% of the population and you find every one walking on egg shells not to upset the muslims or they will be killings its already happening. This Ignorant government kissing Saudi arse.
(13)
2008-09-01 23:41:27
ahmed:
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"the end time wont come until the muslims kill the jews"
so thats why you hate jews nothing to do with land its the fact it jews having control of any land amongst Islamic lands thats why there will never be any peace deal with the Arabs. They are just xenophobic brainwashed evil cretins
(14)
2008-09-01 23:49:12
Kuffar:
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I see the same hoary old excuses about "context" are being conveniently wheeled out again. Most amusing.
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2008-09-02 00:10:20
MAQ:
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Here we go again hold on tight because the story will get completely twisted now because MAQ has decided to pick out something he sees wrong and can try to blame filthy channel 4 and not mention anything whatsoever about how evil some of his brothers can be. Now this topic will be completely diverted away from muslims being evil to channel 4 making up stories. — markukActually, it was just an observation I thought others might have picked up on too. So before you go ahead in your little tangent there, Sally, I would recommend just reading whats there.
(16)
2008-09-02 00:12:01
joe:
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"Undercover church" where the charities actually help people in need including non Christians the wost you might find is water been thrown at someone been babtized and a few choir boys with a sore bum, if i may be so bold.
(17)
2008-09-02 00:18:12
kam:
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"WE MUSLIMS MUST DO BRAINWASHING"
HA HA HA YOU ALL BRAINWASHED THATS WHY YOU DONT DO WELL IN DEBATES YOU JUST END UP THROWING INSULTS YOUR REASON CLASHES WITH YOUR SET MIND AND THEN OFF YOUR GO INTO ZIONIST PIGS AND STUFF LIKE LITTLE BABIES
(19)
2008-09-02 01:23:16
mike:
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What the man in the film says about chopping off heads and arms and feet been a good way of making people behave, i agree, chop his and any one else's head off and stick them on a pole so the hate preaches will get the message.
(20)
2008-09-02 01:28:05
Akbar:
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"21:11 .... she knows a girl who smiles at non-Muslims but scowls at her."
I see this behaviour in a lot of MUSLIM girls lol !!
(21)
2008-09-02 02:02:13
Clifford Ishii:
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This kind of Muslim stupidity is why Biblical Christianity is neede in the UK and around the world to strengthen people & counter Islam.
(22)
2008-09-02 02:43:08
Ali Abdullah:
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As mosques are now crawling with undercover journalists, the mosque committees need to get a grip on what goes on!
(23)
2008-09-02 06:02:38
F Ewell:
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What Clifford Ishii t knows about true the teachings of Jesus could be written on the back of a postage stamp - probably to Guantanamo.
(24)
2008-09-02 06:24:14
K Urban:
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I agree with Colin the Atheist.
Once again our mosques shoot us all through the foot with their ineptitude, making us an easy target for stories that can be twisted. Quite frankly, the idiots amongst us mean that despite the most savage attacks against Islam we are still at square one in the political game of snakes and ladders, and have still not learnt the most basic of lessons after so many years. We need to disassociate Islam from the harsh Wahabi doctrines and their playboy kings and princes, and connect instead with the Jewish people. Almost to a man and woman the Jews are smart beyond measure.
(25)
2008-09-02 06:49:18
Colin:
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The really dreadful thng revealed here is that the programme is just a passing snapshot in the life of one or two Muslim institutes. What kind of picture would a sustained undercover job show - that we're really under attack all year and across the country! The cretinous suggestion to have undercover church and synagogue jobs should be taken up, even if only to reveal the emptiness and malice of where it comes from. Let's end the work of the Saudi fifth column in this and other Western countries, now!
(26)
2008-09-02 09:13:45
markuk:
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Clifford Ishii you are as backward as a muslim. you are just not so dangerous.
(27)
2008-09-02 09:35:26
Ralf Wied:
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I was able to watch parts of the documentary. It's important that Islam is discussed in the Media.
However I was surprised, that the reporters seemed to focus on Saudi interpretation and concluded, that only the extremist Saudis put a fundamentalist twist to the Quran. When the Islam Scholar reads the Saudi translated Quran with it's footnotes, he states, that the peaceful suras are distorted by the comments on the bottom of the page. But they are not. Every word is true - those verses are not valid any more, as verses that come later replace the once Mohammed wrote down in Mekka. I was amazed that the reporters didn't question the statement of the Islamic Scholar and pointed out, that it's not the Saudis that "made up" this rule, but that the Quran itself states that older Suras are replaced with newer ones ... Everything that the Saudis cited and put in their interpretation can be found in the Quran. Thus it's those Suras in the Quran that are the problem - not the Saudis that take the Quran as something that it's meant to be: the unalterable word of Allah. I feel betrayed and manipulated that this wasn't discussed or mentioned by the reporters which must know much better.
(28)
2008-09-02 09:52:21
shan:
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The kaffir ahmed who hides behind a muslim sounding name, states sham is quite, i am sure you are not blind as the name is shan but by implying the words you used, you have shown the level of your intellect.
As from the assorted clippings above have picked out the main points from the programme, it is nothing but people with views i or others find wrong, but since we live in nation wioth freedom of speech and expresion, they have the right to hold their views until those views break the laws of the land. As mentioned many times before if i were given the same resources and powers i wil come up with extremsits and terrorists from the christian/atheist communities week in week out. Some years ago the chief of machester police said i wish i could set up machine gun and gun down all the pakistanis who come into manchester for eid , when he was caught out they said he was thinking aloud and meant nothing by it,so no lectures as every communitiy has its own unsavoury characters but the proof of the pudding is who votes these unsavoury charactesr into power,todate it certainly is not muslims.
(29)
2008-09-02 10:13:23
Yakoub Islam:
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How many mosques in the UK are Wahhabi? Not many. Bin Baz, former top Wahhabi (now deceased) is your ultimate rent-a-quote Wahhabi red neck nutter. You should read what he has to say about masturbation - it's hilarious. What gets me is, how does anyone ever believe this twaddle? Read El Fadl's The Great Theft. It's time we told this Wahhabi fruitcakes to get the hell out of our faith! And will the media stop acting like Wahhabis exemplify us. They are to Islam as to Jehovahs Witnesses are to Christianity - it's just the Wahhabis have more oil.
(30)
2008-09-02 10:39:30
markuk:
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The kaffir ahmed who hides behind a muslim sounding name, states sham is quite, i am sure you are not blind as the name is shan but by implying the words you used, you have shown the level of your intellect. — shanAs from the assorted clippings above have picked out the main points from the programme, it is nothing but people with views i or others find wrong, but since we live in nation wioth freedom of speech and expresion, they have the right to hold their views until those views break the laws of the land. As mentioned many times before if i were given the same resources and powers i wil come up with extremsits and terrorists from the christian/atheist communities week in week out. Some years ago the chief of machester police said i wish i could set up machine gun and gun down all the pakistanis who come into manchester for eid , when he was caught out they said he was thinking aloud and meant nothing by it,so no lectures as every communitiy has its own unsavoury characters but the proof of the pudding is who votes these unsavoury charactesr into power,todate it certainly is not muslims. Shan i think you are a dangerous person and should be jailied
(31)
2008-09-02 11:02:39
Zahra Jibril:
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Salamah
I think C4 has achieved its aim and has you where it wants, fighting amongst yourself about which sect is crazy and extreme. I have an idea, let’s ban the Wahabis, and then continue to ban different sects till all Muslims are behind bars, apart from of course the liberal moderate Muslims. The truth is no one cares what sect you follow or how you distinguish yourself. It does not matter, so I SUGGEST you stop wasting your time trying to distinguish yourself, falling over each others feet to claim to be a moderate Muslim, who differs from this "crazy Saudi following, jihad declaring, gay bashing, veil wearing, evil extremist" P.s. I missed the show, so I only have the live blog to go by. But what I can say is: I don't need dispatches to tell me about Uum Salim, May allah bless her and reward her for all her hard work inshallah. Continue you as you were...
(32)
2008-09-02 11:54:58
shan:
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markuk the truth must hurt you alot but at the moment speaking the truth is not a crime.
until then i shall speak the truth if that hurts your feelings then good as a racist bigots derserve more than that.
(33)
2008-09-02 12:18:02
Zion slayer:
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Here we go again hold on tight because the story will get completely twisted now because MAQ has decided to pick out something he sees wrong and can try to blame filthy channel 4 and not mention anything whatsoever about how evil some of his brothers can be. Now this topic will be completely diverted away from muslims being evil to channel 4 making up stories. — markukshut up you zionist we are not interested in your views. This is a muslim issue - pigs need not apply.
(34)
2008-09-02 12:24:19
Bush:
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SHAM IS QUIET! — ahmedlooks like the Zio pigs are out on mpac again - i say we ban them and then let Hizbollah do the rest of the job! :)
(35)
2008-09-02 12:27:02
Liberty:
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Once again benign looking moderates are rolled out to convince us that the Koran has been misinterpreted, mistranslated or that the bad bits had been taken out of context. Perhaps the viewers should have been made aware of 'taqiyya'.
(36)
2008-09-02 12:40:32
markuk:
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Here we go again hold on tight because the story will get completely twisted now because MAQ has decided to pick out something he sees wrong and can try to blame filthy channel 4 and not mention anything whatsoever about how evil some of his brothers can be. Now this topic will be completely diverted away from muslims being evil to channel 4 making up stories. — Zion slayershut up you zionist we are not interested in your views. This is a muslim issue - pigs need not apply. This is a muslim issue in the united kingdom so im afraid is an issue that will affect everyone in the uk. Yet another muslim who seems capable of killing someone because of their views
(37)
2008-09-02 13:06:29
joe:
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"Wahhabi fruitcakes to get the hell out of our faith! And will the media stop acting like Wahhabis exemplify us. They are to Islam as to Jehovahs Witnesses are to Christianity"
Wake up call that is your faith, there is only one Isam. From what authority does anyone else speak who is apposed to saudi teachings? if you dont like it then change your religion, if you are too scared to then piont proven, plod along calling yourself a muslim pleasing your peers but know this, you are still a blade of grass in which the evil ones crawl, you provide cover amonst your communities for extremism to grow, an unconsious brick in the wall of jihad, women who were vails a political statment designed as a puplic banner of saudi loyalty by mentally ill women or pawns been used as walking Isam adverts, to the so called kuffar its a klu klux klan show of strenth after 3000 blacks just been linched eg 911 Just like an unwhitting soldier who follows orders from his sinister leaders unknowing of his true intentions thats a moderate muslim. If theses texts and teaching were written 1400 years ago then every so called grievence since is in responce to their effect. e.g. the responce to dhimmitude, a jewish state! and on and on through history. There are no recorded events in the 3000 years prior to Islam of Arabs leaving their lands and invading others, Then comes Islam bloodbath ever since.
(38)
2008-09-02 13:09:36
Rehaam:
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What a diservice these people are doing to Islam by giving their interpretation rather then Gods.....
(39)
2008-09-02 13:13:43
shan:
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Joe can you tell me who killed 6 million jews.
can you tell me who killed around 120 million of their own people during world war one two. can you tell me who killed 3 million in vietnam. can you tell me who killed 3 million in korea. can you tell me who killed 3 million in afghan. can you tell me who killed around 3 million in algeria. can you tell me who has killed around 3 millions iraqis to date. can you tell me who has been occupying and slaughtering palestinains for the last 60 years. can you tell me who killed hundreds of thousands in bosnia. the list is long and this just in the last century,for every single act of violence you attribute to muslims 100 can be attributed to non-Muslims. So do not patrionise us as we too know a bit about history.
(40)
2008-09-02 13:33:14
Light upon Light:
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Did the programme ever consult respectable Muslims about their views of the extremist elements and why/how they were unacceptable?
Or did the average joe now feel that there are such extremism in all mosques and amongst most/all Muslims?
(41)
2008-09-02 13:33:58
Roger:
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Here we go again hold on tight because the story will get completely twisted now because MAQ has decided to pick out something he sees wrong and can try to blame filthy channel 4 and not mention anything whatsoever about how evil some of his brothers can be. Now this topic will be completely diverted away from muslims being evil to channel 4 making up stories. — markukshut up you zionist we are not interested in your views. This is a muslim issue - pigs need not apply. This is a muslim issue in the united kingdom so im afraid is an issue that will affect everyone in the uk. Yet another muslim who seems capable of killing someone because of their views yes its a british issue - not one to be hijacked for israel and its zio racist followers. Your extreme views and racist leanings are a disgrace to this site.
(42)
2008-09-02 13:39:09
markuk:
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Did the programme ever consult respectable Muslims about their views of the extremist elements and why/how they were unacceptable? — Light upon LightOr did the average joe now feel that there are such extremism in all mosques and amongst most/all Muslims? Lol respectable muslims? This is the whole problem. How are the public suppose to know who is a repectble muslim and who isnt. In fact this mosque was supposedly the most moderate and respected in the uk. See heres what happens time and time again. When muslims get caught planning to kill innocent people of kidnap someone or a mosque is caught preaching its ok to kill gays of beat women, the rest of the muslims say we cant believe they were planning to do this, they were such nice people or this mosque has never had anyone do this in the past. Its the same excuse time and time and time again. So how do you expect channel 4 to interview muslims and to get a truthful answer. I believe there are muslims who will dissagree what the mosque was preaching but not many have the guts to stand up to them.
(43)
2008-09-02 13:51:25
Light upon Light:
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How are the public suppose to know who is a repectble muslim and who isnt. In fact this mosque was supposedly the most moderate and respected in the uk. — markukIts the same excuse time and time and time again. So how do you expect channel 4 to interview muslims and to get a truthful answer. I believe there are muslims who will dissagree what the mosque was preaching but not many have the guts to stand up to them.
(44)
2008-09-02 14:08:50
markuk:
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All mpacuk do when they are interviewed is blame forign policy. Just watch any interview with ashgar the loonatic bukhari and you will see.
Dont tell me that all the people who come to this site have never once been to this mosque and seen these things going on. Why arent mpac asking for this mosque to be closed down right away. after all just sacking a few women wont make any difference. because its the saudis mosque.
(45)
2008-09-02 14:19:18
shan:
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markuk the racist bigot who refuses to condemn the attacks in quenchwell and belper lectures us again.
Until you condemn the attacks in quencwell and belper you words are nothing but hot air.
(46)
2008-09-02 15:13:59
joe:
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Throughout World War II, al-Husayni worked for the Axis Powers as a broadcaster in propaganda targeting Arab public opinion. He recruited Muslim volunteers for the German armed forces operating in the Balkans. Beginning in 1941, Al-Husayni visited Bosnia, and convinced Muslim leaders that a Muslim S.S. division would be in the interest of Islam. In spite of these and other propaganda efforts, only half of the expected 20,000 to 25,000 Muslims volunteered." Al-Husayni was involved in the organization and recruitment of Bosnian Muslims into several divisions of the Waffen SS and other units. The largest was the 13th "Handschar" division of 21,065 men, which conducted operations against Communist partisans in the Balkans from February 1944 and participated in the genocide of Yugoslav Jews.[128]
On March 1, 1944, while speaking on Radio Berlin, al-Husayni said: 'Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.'
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2008-09-02 16:00:51
markuk:
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If this program was never shown do you honestly think the likes of mpacuk would have secretly filmed these people and handed it in to the police. You seen what happened when a woman in the mosque tried to challege the one telling people what the should and shouldnt do. she was quickly silenced.
(49)
2008-09-02 16:08:39
Colin:
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Markuk says Shan is dangerous and should be jailed. Dangerous yes, but please not a British PC jail where he would have free reign to warp any weak mind he came in contact with. How about a nice wahaabi-run jail in a quiet spot in the empty quarter?
(50)
2008-09-02 16:12:54
Islamic Torch:
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This kind of Muslim stupidity is why Biblical Christianity is neede in the UK and around the world to strengthen people & counter Islam. — Clifford IshiiYou are so right - go and find them - and see what they say about you and how you live today. They won't be looking at Muslims they will first put their own house in order.
(51)
2008-09-02 16:17:11
Paul:
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Shan, this is not off topic I responded to your questions for Joe as I feel a bit of history debate would help in the matters you raise. I address the main point below.
Joe can you tell me who killed 6 million jews.- The Nazi SS with some assistance from Muslim members (Christians had to renounce their religion before being admitted to the SS). can you tell me who killed around 120 million of their own people during world war one two.- No One ‘of their own’ They were global conflicts started by Germany and Japan. The ideologies were Nazism (pagan) and Communism (atheist). can you tell me who killed 3 million in vietnam.- North Vietnam, Communist China (they started it) and the US. can you tell me who killed 3 million in korea.- Again your numbers are wong, but the answer would be Communist China, North Korea and a UN response. can you tell me who killed 3 million in afghan.- Again wrong numbers, a war started by 9/11 and the Taleban. can you tell me who killed around 3 million in algeria.- Wrong figures again but the answer would be the Takfiri GIA (i.e. Muslims killing Muslims). can you tell me who has killed around 3 millions iraqis to date.- Lol again you come up with the wrong figures, but the big killers have been the Sunni Suicide bombers who target Shia and the response by Shia controlled death squads. can you tell me who has been occupying and slaughtering palestinains for the last 60 years.- Er no I can’t actually but please do actually READ a history book before telling me. Something by Robert Fisk perhaps? can you tell me who killed hundreds of thousands in bosnia.- Oh yeah the Serbs, Croats and Bosnians in a civil war the US and NATO eventually ended. the list is long and this just in the last century,for every single act of violence you attribute to muslims 100 can be attributed to non-Muslims.- Depends on who you ask doesn’t it? Shan, you debate on here and I respect you (unfortunately I have not had the time to reply to an earlier comment of yours Re Irish terrorism. However the issue of Wahabi or Salafist control of Mosques is important. Thank you channel four for displaying it. Responding to the issue with silly propaganda and distorted facts makes you look silly. You have a brain use it, don’t let the Saudis control it.
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2008-09-02 16:33:04
Colin:
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I'm waiting for the police to pick up those female "Kill, Kill" preachers.
(53)
2008-09-02 16:40:42
Aman:
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can you tell me who killed 3 million in afghan.- Again wrong numbers, a war started by 9/11 and the Taleban. — Paulcan you tell me who has killed around 3 millions iraqis to date.- Lol again you come up with the wrong figures, but the big killers have been the Sunni Suicide bombers who target Shia and the response by Shia controlled death squads. The war in Afghanistan was started by the US not the Taleban! The Taleban nor the people of Afhganistan attacked the US. The US bombed schools, weddings gathering etc. As for Iraq, did this chaos exist prior to the War? No. Over a million have died because of the War which the US launched purely for economic interests. So over a million dead for oil... Go on - defend the ideology.
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2008-09-02 18:07:21
shan:
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paul one wonders why in the world only the crimes of your enemeis are known but not your own.
so whenever christians kill each other it is nazis-facist but never christians,the odd thing is these nazis-facists were voted into power by germans and as germans are christians the conclusion is they are christian killers. Muslims during world war two helped save jews from christian murder squads,the nations name is albania,those who joined the germans were bosnians trying to get liberation from serbia. so the mufti now represents the arab world which was under british and french occupation,the mufti did what he could to try and liberate palestine from occupation and sought help from anywhere he could,he used the age old motto my enemeis enemy is my friend. As to who is silly the facts speak for themselves for the world to see, your attitude is best described by stating the master race is never guilty of terrorism its only others that are terrorists, we bring democracy and human rights nowadays by slaughtering and torturing people,previously we bought the worl of god before slaugtering and torturing humanity,somethings never change. America travelled thousands of miles to attack vietnam but it is vietnamese fualt that americans killed 3 million,vow only a person with perverted logic of master race could come out and blame the victims of criminals,it was the koreans fault that americans came to their nation and killed 3 million. 3 million killed in afghan were killed by the soviet union the taliban did not exist. 3 million dead in algeria by french occupation terroists. 3 million and counting dead in iraq by american terrorists, the perverted logic that it is shia and sunni killing does not wash as we know shia and sunni have lived in iraq for 1300 years without going on people to people massacares,but we know this much wherever chrisitans go people start dying in big numbers. For your information i was educated in a roman catholic school and thank my history teacher for encouraging me to search for the truth by looking at both sides of the argument,instead of being a brainwashed drone.
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2008-09-02 18:26:02
Barbarossa:
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Shan do not feel intimidated by the ZioNazi's on here, they seem to have targetted you - so you should be proud because it seems you must be making a difference and so they want to demoralise you.
These ZioNazi's are probably paid and work in a central location - you on the other hand are freedom fighter and I for one love your posts. Keep it up!
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2008-09-02 18:53:18
Ali:
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I'm waiting for the police to pick up those female "Kill, Kill" preachers. — ColinI'm waiting for Hamas to pick you up :)
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2008-09-02 18:54:32
Bush:
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Paul the Zio Pig and his whole gang seem to be finally show their true racist colours. Never b defeated oh Muslims and stand up against those who seek to hate and harm you!
Now post on here my brothers and stand up as one body against the Zionist pigs.
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2008-09-02 18:57:27
Jabotinski:
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Shans real name is Trevor Brooks the mad convert — AhmedYour real name is Miss Piggy but we dont go around making fun of it. Now lets talk about the vegatable man - Ariel Sharon
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2008-09-02 19:00:53
Rachel Corrie:
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Once again benign looking moderates are rolled out to convince us that the Koran has been misinterpreted, mistranslated or that the bad bits had been taken out of context. Perhaps the viewers should have been made aware of 'taqiyya'. — LibertyI agree - its just like the Talmud ..has anyone ever typed in Talmud EXPOSED into google. Its shocking how evil that book is. I say the next undercover one should be finding out what students of the Talmud are taught - no wonder they love killing Palestinians.
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2008-09-02 19:02:42
Khurram:
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markuk the racist bigot who refuses to condemn the attacks in quenchwell and belper lectures us again. — shanUntil you condemn the attacks in quencwell and belper you words are nothing but hot air. Brother can you tell me what quenchwell is ... i can see the zionists on this site hate you - thats why i support you! May Allah bless you!
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2008-09-02 19:04:46
Unbelievable:
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I don’t know why we bother to bend over backward to apologize for people who say this or that about a particular topic. The programmes main intention was to portray Muslim in a negative light and they got clips to that effect. Almost one and a half million Muslim were butchered in Afghanistan and Iraq (which still continuing even to this day) not a single person is held accountable nor an outcry from C4 documentary’s or any other western media; and these extremist liars have the Audacity to portray us as fanatics. They should all be thrown off a high cliff (that includes majority of Rupert Murdoch’s journalist + quite a few from the BBC’ that includes Andrew Neil).
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2008-09-02 19:21:26
Kuffar:
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Almost one and a half million Muslim were butchered in Afghanistan and Iraq (which still continuing even to this day) not a single person is held accountable nor an outcry from C4 documentary’s or any other western media; and these extremist liars have the Audacity to portray us as fanatics. — UnbelievableEver heard the term "non-sequitur", old chap?
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2008-09-02 19:56:04
RSD:
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Mufti Hajj Amin El-Husseini interestingly did not commence his campaign with action against the Zionist "occupiers". His initial rounds of violence were directedly exclusively towards Palestinians who hope to join with the Jews to create a united Palestine for all. His next round of violence was directed primarily towards indigenous non-Zionist Jews thus polarising the communities. In fact despite the resources to hand he did little to challenge the Zionists.
However if the truth be known he was in it for himself and his relatives. His nephew Yassir Arafat was no better. They both robbed and betrayed the Palestinian people. El-Husseini made it worse, for as a wanted war criminal in 1947 he could not go and represent the nation of which he asserted himself as the supreme leader.
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2008-09-02 20:26:34
Colin the Athiest:
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This thread, starting with the almost-live blog, started really encouragingly with Muslims and non-Muslims talking about a serious subject, i.e. the Wahabi onslaught on the UK and Islam. And then we get the usual mentalist suspects crying 'zionist pig et. al.' which is so boring and worthless. Try talking ON subject, yes I am talking to you Khurram, Bush, Ali, Shan, Islamic Torch.
The people talking last night on C4 did not make it up, they were not set-up, they spoke from the heart, with hate. If you guys have any notion of living alongside non-Muslims in peace you do not show it. And your problem (and you are making the problem bigger for Muslims that do want to live in peace with the rest of the UK non-muslims) is that people have woken up to this perceived threat of Muslims hating non-muslims.
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2008-09-02 21:27:21
Paul:
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Shan, I will respond to you with facts that have been established in history. The Nazis were pagan fact; SS members had to renounce their Christianity. But even if it was true that they were ostensibly Christian, other Christians soon put an end to them.
There was no US military intervention in Afghanistan before 9/11. The Taleban hosted Al Qaeda so the US/UK went in; this was as many Muslims celebrated 9/11. In fairness just as many Muslims condemned 9/11. Oh yeah how peaceful the Sunni and Shia were in Iraq? I mean all Saddam did was drain the marshes and kill 300 000 Shia. What you have seen since is revenge and tit for tat between Sunni and Shia. Supposing it is all the US's fault then was the US responsible for the battle of Karbala? Is the US responsible for the Shia/Sunni violence in Pakistan or Yemen? Communist China launched aggressive wars of conquest against both South Korea and South Vietnam. The west responded, sadly the Vietnamese were pawns in a clash between the west and communism. The US never started either war however. Oh Algeria and the French, right so you mentioned that whilst ignoring the recent violence there by the GIA. I will not apologise for what the French did, interestingly enough though huge numbers of Algerians now live in France, so the French can not be all bad in the eyes of Algerian Muslims. Thanks for replying, you learnt history at school? Well you still seem slightly blinkered I just wish you luck in reading more. Please do, as you go on as though you possess ultimate truth, yet your arguments lack cohesion or indeed references. However the issue at hand is about Wahabi control of UK Mosques. Funny how you go on about Christians killing, yet you never hear 'kill kill kill' in a Church is it? That is the Wahabis that say that. Now could someone explain to me how me saying this makes me a Zionazi or what a Zionazi is? Sounds like something you would hear in a playground to be honest! The reason I post this is that Shan and others are clearly intelligent yet they post the shallowest of propaganda, if Muslims could sensibly address criticisms and respond to rational arguments in this and other cases without name calling then community relationships which MPACUK works hard to establish would be easier.
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2008-09-02 21:43:28
Colin the Athiest:
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I don’t know why we bother to bend over backward to apologize for people who say this or that about a particular topic. The programmes main intention was to portray Muslim in a negative light and they got clips to that effect. Almost one and a half million Muslim were butchered in Afghanistan and Iraq (which still continuing even to this day) not a single person is held accountable nor an outcry from C4 documentary’s or any other western media; and these extremist liars have the Audacity to portray us as fanatics. They should all be thrown off a high cliff (that includes majority of Rupert Murdoch’s journalist + quite a few from the BBC’ that includes Andrew Neil). — UnbelievableWhen you make these assertions, there should be some semblance of fact. Nonetheless, I am not making light of people being killed, everyone is truly appalling, but to try and blame all those dead on 'us' is very misleading and plain wrong.
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2008-09-02 22:03:47
Colin:
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Ali, may I can bring to your attention, that I live in the UK and I want my local police to arrest female preachers in the UK who teach that adulterers should be killed. Unless they, do I don’t know what I’m paying my taxes for, and I’ll feel very afraid for myself and my neighbours. Of course, you living in Gaza can rely on your local Hamas to give medals to such preachers, but surely you’re not proposing that Hamas should have a local branch in the UK to arrest me? What for? Let’s have a compromise and have the UK police arrest Gorgons and then release them to you and Hamas in Gaza where they will be free to go round chanting ‘Kill, Kill!” to their hearts content.
(68)
2008-09-02 22:20:47
Who started the murder?:
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I don’t know why we bother to bend over backward to apologize for people who say this or that about a particular topic. The programmes main intention was to portray Muslim in a negative light and they got clips to that effect. Almost one and a half million Muslim were butchered in Afghanistan and Iraq (which still continuing even to this day) not a single person is held accountable nor an outcry from C4 documentary’s or any other western media; and these extremist liars have the Audacity to portray us as fanatics. They should all be thrown off a high cliff (that includes majority of Rupert Murdoch’s journalist + quite a few from the BBC’ that includes Andrew Neil). — Colin the AthiestWhen you make these assertions, there should be some semblance of fact. Nonetheless, I am not making light of people being killed, everyone is truly appalling, but to try and blame all those dead on 'us' is very misleading and plain wrong. According to some reports its two million dead - the zionist war has cost us more then that around the world. Lets not hide the Jewish and Christian extremists as well as other Zionists who murdered them and started this war. Oh no did I say the one thing Zionists dont want anyone to know - they are the people behind the Iraq war!!!!
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2008-09-02 23:48:03
Nadeem Qureshi:
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The above - "Live Blog: Undercover Mosques - The Return" highlights what issues I (and I think other muslims) would have with working with MPACUK at the moment.
I would like to get involved with MPACUK but the problem is they suffer from the age of affliction of partisanship that blights the Muslim Ummah in general. I attended the MPACUK Media Workshop and felt motivated to act but comments from MPACUK activists like the one below really do turn me off from MPACUK and until they sort this problem out I feel MPACUK will just stay some fringe activist group: "..It seems that all the documentary makers managed to expose was a small group of people who I'm sure in good time Muslims will isolate..." What do you mean Mr MPACUK Blogger? Who did they expose exactly? Murtaza Khan, Sheikh Khalid Yaseen?? These two are well knowne, good and respected scholars working in the heart of the Muslim community. We Muslims all need to stick and stand together - one for all and all for one!
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2008-09-03 00:04:02
alan:
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Once again islam has been found out for what it really is, an intolerant divisive women reppresive twisted faith' talk about shooting yourselves in the foot you make yourselves look like fools you dont need any help from the bnp.
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2008-09-03 00:26:36
John:
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"We Muslims all need to stick and stand together - one for all and all for one!"
True...and then get deported together.
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2008-09-03 04:59:55
Olson:
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I'm with Shan in the subject of Christianity and the massacre of innocents. The Nazis would have found it very hard to do what they did without the willing participation of the Church. Why won't the Vatican release details of the Pope's activities during the war? is it Goldhagan who wrote 'Hitler's Pope' - can't remember - but it gives details of what was preached from pulpits. Sure, the nazis wqere anti-christian (Jesus was a Jew after all, as wer abraham, Isaac and Jacob) but even they knew they'd need the church to pursue their genocidal intent. Arab countries were at best ambivalent, while Turkey was a haven for Jews - or have I been misinformed?
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2008-09-03 09:09:12
shan:
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Paul it seems you are a eager beaver trying to put words in other peoples comments,not once has the word zionazi been used to describe you by me if you wish to inform me that you are one that would not surprise me.
As for you comment about america never being militarliy involved in afghna before 911 what can you say to such blatant lies when the anericans have glorified there own financing-traning and arming of afghan mujahideen to destroy the soviet union as revege for vietnam. As for saddam he was a bathist who did not beleive in god he was financed and armed by the west to take on iran so that the iranian revolution would fail,so much for you crocodile tears for shias,saddam dealt with terrorits in the best way his goverment thougth best,for you information more than a third of all civil servants including the army were shias,saddam excuted anyone who was against him period,karbala ahppend 1400 years ago it was the state nto people to people fight. I love to see people like you excuse crimes agianst humanity by non muslims for it shows you reality which is a hatred for humanity if they are diffrent to you,you never hear kill kill in churches is a fallacy as ihave watched many programmes about churhes in which they have stated gays deserve to be killed,so less of the patrionising. As i stated earkier if i was given the same powers and resources i would bring out terrorists and hatred preacher day in day out from the christian/atheist community. I wish finally to ask you one question why the hatred for humanity why do you kill peope in the millions to rob their lands and their resources,what makes you do these things,is there something inherently wrong in your genes that makes you butcher humanity in the most vile and evil ways,when they have never done anything against you.
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2008-09-03 10:23:45
Ron Paul:
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Ali, may I can bring to your attention, that I live in the UK and I want my local police to arrest female preachers in the UK who teach that adulterers should be killed. Unless they, do I don’t know what I’m paying my taxes for, and I’ll feel very afraid for myself and my neighbours. Of course, you living in Gaza can rely on your local Hamas to give medals to such preachers, but surely you’re not proposing that Hamas should have a local branch in the UK to arrest me? What for? Let’s have a compromise and have the UK police arrest Gorgons and then release them to you and Hamas in Gaza where they will be free to go round chanting ‘Kill, Kill!” to their hearts content. — ColinColin I live and love the UK, and I want the Police to arrest you and your family when they come back from Gaza. Because Jews who fly out and shoot Muslim children in Palestine are murderers. Now in Tel Aviv you might get a medal and a 'free' demolished and stolen piece of land for killing Muslims but here in the UK, the country I love - I would like this type of hate to be criminalised.
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2008-09-03 14:16:41
Rabin:
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"We Muslims all need to stick and stand together - one for all and all for one!" — JohnTrue...and then get deported together. you mean back to Palestine? - damn you stole that country didnt you? ...whats it called now?
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2008-09-03 14:30:14
Paul:
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'something inherently wrong in your genes that makes you butcher humanity in the most vile and evil ways,when they have never done anything against you.'
Your other comments make little sense and some of them are in fact quite illegible. But as to my genes? I do not support butchering humanity or whatever it is that you are on about. You are convinced that the west is evil and Muslims never do any wrong at all. Such a view is unbalanced. The fact remains that 9/11 preceded and acted as the catalyst for the intervention in Afghanistan. As to Sunni/Shia violence, it dates back to the battle of Karbala and is rampant in Pakistan and Yemen as well as Iraq. A point you conveniently ignored. We are debating the Wahabi control of certain UK Mosques. In these Mosques Muslims are as has been demonstrated being taught hatred and incited to kill (see earlier quotes). The most you can say is the Christianity is as bad, well show me the evidence where Churches in the UK teach hatred and violence, you can not. By the way staying on topic, what is your view on the Wahabis? Do you support them, or deny they exist? Seems strange to try and blame the west for them.
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2008-09-03 18:58:02
Colin:
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Ron Paul, are you on some kind of substance? You turn up to defend Ali, who wants Hamas to arrest me here in Britain, because I don't want gorgons roaming around the local mosque chanting "Kill, hill!". Has he brought over some Hamas heavies? We don't just WANT the police to arrest the gorgons, we DEMAND that they do. And now you turn up with talk about the police arresting me and my family as we step off the plane - or is it some lunatic loud nine - from Gaza, a far-away Hamas hell-hole that we've never seen or been within a thousand miles of. MPAC, can't you do something to help people like Ron Paul and Ali?
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2008-09-03 23:43:29
shan:
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Paul nice to see your cut and paste job like it is usaually when people who are muslims are involved.
The question was is there but you quite conveneintly left that out. As stated before freedom of speech is a two way street,as long as we have freedom of speech in britain then it is for all even if we find what they say unpalatable,unless if you are one of those peope who think it is freedom of speech when villifying islam and muslims but it is hate when muslims do it. As for hate not being preached how do we know, we do not have the same resources and coverage to go undecover and find out,but from high clergy we have had plenty of hate filled views against muslims and islam as seen on tv and media outlets. as for violence between shias and sunni being rampant in pakistan do find out what the word rampant means. Muslims in palestine-iraq-afghan-kashmir and chechnya are innocents victims of kaffirs who have invaded and occupied their lands,so when muslim armies are occupying britain then you will be correct in your assertion that i think muslims do no wrong. Bu the question still remains to be answered by you is there something inherently evil in the genes that causes you to butcher humanity in the most evil way even though they have never done anything against you. 911 was a inside job as steel structure buildings do not pancake within 2hrs of being hit by planes with fuel that burns at less heat then is required to melt steel.
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2008-09-04 10:22:04
Zahra Jibril:
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I just watched it on youtube: I agree with more or less everything except the father allowed 2 give away his daughter b4 puberty (2 which da lady just utters without showing text or evidence.)
Everything they said IS in the religion, whether you want to cover it up and pretend it is not there or emphasis other parts is a different story. Everything expressed is within the limits and boundaries of Islam and if contextualized and understood with an objective mind (clearly C4 aim was to distort speeches) It is offensive to some, but Islam is not there to please the none-Muslims or anyone else for that matter. So how can C4 dictate WHAT should be acceptable to us (as Muslims) or what is extreme in our Religion. It is a sorry state of the ummah if we let the media nit pick what we can or cannot practice of our faith. What is impowering Muslims women and by Mr. Brown? What is “extreme shira”? 'Islam came as stranger and would return as stranger' There parts of Islam which will always seem extreme to this society we live in. Lastly can I point out the obvious, which is that the UK Muslim population has really transformed to when the majority was of those from the Asian sub continent. Its time the Asian community stop thinking they are the only Muslims in UK and present all Islamic Communities in regard to the different ideology followed. You and the west need to get over your Saudi obsessions. This slandering and bickering about Saudi influence ideology is stupid. I got to run now, but some serious A*ss kissing is going on here in the comment section. many of you, like Dr. Al Yamini are talking about "your" view. Who cares, that is not Islam. Peace out. P.s. Anyone interested in Sh. K. Yasin response can see it through out Ramadan on www.challengeyoursoul.com P.s.s. Muslim reporters are selling their soul to make money off the back of the Muslim community. WHat a shame. Maybe if their parents send them to learn Islam, they would not be stabbing the Muslims in the back right now.
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2008-09-04 11:37:56
markuk:
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"So how can C4 dictate WHAT should be acceptable to us (as Muslims) or what is extreme in our Religion. It is a sorry state of the ummah if we let the media nit pick what we can or cannot practice of our faith. What is impowering Muslims women and by Mr. Brown? What is “extreme shira”?"
Zahra Jibril You sound disturbed. How can you possibly think that if people are preaching to murder other people for being gay or leaving islam that this is ok. Nobody has any right to tell them they cant do this. Shan is just as bad when he thinks freedom of speech should mean freedom to insite murder. You can insult all you like if you want to enjoy this freedom but when muslims are preaching to kill none muslims or muslims who ledave islam. How can you say this is freedom of speech.
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2008-09-04 14:14:10
Olson:
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shan
Freedom of speech. The Danish Cartoons. Was that incitement to hatred or incitement to kill? The sisters in the documentary: incitement to hatred or incitement ot kill? (PS the stuff about 'in your genes' is really Nazi stuff - check out the work they did on it).
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2008-09-04 14:15:55
shan:
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olson when muslims were condemning the unwarranted attack on the prophet of islam,they were lectured its freedom of speech learn to live with it.
Even thought the same newspaper editor had refused a cartoon about jesus in case it offended christians. So much for freedom of speech,as i stated before when people villify muslims and islam it is freedom of speech but when muslims use the same freedom of speech then its hate and incitement. So decide whether freedom of speech is universal or only for certain people and beliefs. The question still needs answering is there a gene that causes certain races and beliefs to butcher humanity with with a evil lust to rob and occupy.
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2008-09-04 17:05:09
William:
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shan said- "911 was a inside job as steel structure buildings do not pancake within 2hrs of being hit by planes with fuel that burns at less heat then is required to melt steel."
Very poor effort, even for a dumb conspiracy theorist. The steel didn't have to melt, you muppet- the fire was *easily* hot enough to *soften and weaken* (NOT melt) the steel quite sufficiently to cause progressive collapse. Fire weakens steel, see? I won't link to the chapter and verse facts because you'd ignore them, if you understood them in the first place. Stay happy in your bubble of stupidity and hatred.
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2008-09-04 19:51:23
Olson:
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shan "The question still needs answering is there a gene that causes certain races and beliefs to butcher humanity with with a evil lust to rob and occupy." No, shan, there isn't. Neither in Muslims, nor in anyone else. There may be genetic defects in individuals which make them more prone to violence. But to ascribe those characterisitcs to Muslims, Islam or any other entire people or beliefs would be entirely wrong. It is only the Nazis who developed theories like this. Curiously they used the same language 'evil lust'. There may be belief systems or religions which encourage their followers to invade others to spread their message or to occupy, they may even give rules about the spoils of war and how to divide them. But I wouldn't want to sign up to that sort of belief system or religion would you? Historically, this has happened. Many religions and political ideologies have been spread by the sword - countless wars over the ages attest to this. So, to sum up. There is no gene which |
Today at 8pm, Channel 4 is showing a follow up to their previous documentary from last year where a journalist went undercover into certain Mosques in the country in order to expose extremist practices and preachers.