Lets also be clear that Biblical Christianity will always stnd with & support Israel against anyone going against her.

He sounds like George Bush [edited by MPACUK Mod]

Its time to stop hoping that every 4 years some great new hope will arrive at the white house. Nothing will ever change!!!

Let their be no doubt, it was the Muslims who defeated the Roman Empire, in Egypt, Syria,etc.

Let their be no doubt, Military warfare or political warfare or intellectual warfare, the Muslim civilisations are the greatest of all, and history proves that.

With a Weak dollar, Weak economy, Obama its better if your all talk but no action.

Clifford ishii you better stop calling yourself a christian then because your father jesus was against israel and her people.

Clifford you have just revealed what right-wing, fundamental, zionist Christians are like. Are you suggesting it is fine for Israel to whatever it does for the sake of their God? Are you condoning the murder of Palestinian children? If you trully believe that, then I am glad I am not one of YOU! I despair at the very thought of people like you who kill innocents in the name of GOD, which is a sin, and you will not be going through the pearly gates for that. That is a FACT. The very people who you support are the very people that according to Biblical Chritianity tortured and murdered Jesus. The irony, is in private, Zionist Jews, revel and celebrate the crucification of Jesus by their forefathers. You really need to WAKE UP, as it is abundantly clear you have been snoozing for a very long time.

There are two interesting and spurious assertions made here. 1. Jesus was against Israel & her people. 2. Zionist Jews revel and celebrate that Jesus was executed.

Careful reading of the New Testament shows very clearly that the early Christians and presumably Jewus himself were very supportive of the notion of an independent Israel, free of Roman occupation. The Gospels assert repeatedly that Jesus has a strong claim as a successor to King David, even though historical evidence would counter some of the narrative used. Clearly Jesus treads a very fine line between asserting the rights of the Jews as a nation and posing a threat to the Roman Occupation Forces.

There are certainly a number of Jews who feel very uncomfortable with Jesus on the Crucifix, and that is quite understandable given the historical relationship between the Churches and Jews. However to claim that Zionists, as a collective, privately revel and celebrate the execution of Jesus is a monumental slur which cannot be substantiated nor justified.

There are enough problems with factual events and attitudes without inventing new ones to pile on top and further polarise the situation.

Obama, should utmost definately seek a crash course about Islamic history and Muslim Civilisations. To understand, before thinks its all going to be "easy" supporting Israel with his ultimatiums.

Bibical Christanity ? For 1000 years nobody could defeat the Roman Empire ???,. Who defeated the Byzatinee Empire ? Who defeated Constantinople empire ? Who defeated the crusaders ?

From ARABIA to SPAIN.

Incase one becomes complacent in the confidence of their Military strikes.

Have no doubt about it. Whoever replaces Bush as the next president of the United States,plus the next but one, and ad infinitum, will all and always be reviled both by the political left, and the Islamic right, simply because they are leaders of the people, by the people and for the people. Wait for the brickbats to come as come that will.

RSD,

Thank you very much for your lesson in Religious History. However, I am very comfortable with my historical knowledge. You seem to legitimise Zionsim. Are you a proud Zionist? Zionism and Jewry are to seperate entities. A true Jew that follows the scripture truly, is and cannot be a zionist. And a Zionist ideaology does, and cannot complement the spirit of the Torah. Zionism is a right-wing, racist, phenomena, developed in the late 19th century whose primary goal was to occupy a country at the expense of the indigenious people. And to this day, it is zionism that is persecuting the Palestnian people. Zionists enjoy the occupation and the daily humilation of the Palestinian people. I have met and conversed with many Zionists in the UK and in Palestine who condone the crucification of Jesus, accusing Jesus of being an imposter and blasmpherous. This is not an invention as you claim but a commonly-held belief amongst zionists (note, not the true believers of the Torah who do not persecute, loot, pillage, and murder another group of people in the name of the Torah)

The Israelis seem to have the U.S. wrapped nicely around their little fingers

Henry, the fundamental question surely is whether Judaism as a faith is at all relevant to Zionism as a modern political movement. What cannot be questionned is that the Books of Moses do provide a clear structure for a Jewish state. As far as understand it, & I am not a rabbinical scholar, the dispute amongst Jews is based on whether or not the arrival of the Messiah is required to legitimise the current state of Israel. A minority of religious Jews assert that Israel is not legitimate because the Messiah has not arrived, but were the Messiah to turn up then the subsequent state would be legitimate. This remains an internal Jewish argument which is solely their business to resolve and contributes nothing to the resolution of the Israel / Palestine conflict.
As far as I understand the "trial" and subsequent execution of Jesus contravene Jewish religious law, and the reason that Jesus was cut down from the cross, together one assumes with the others, was that on the eve of Passover it was likley to cause massive civil disturbance. Whether individual Zionists allegedly revel in Jesus's execution is largely here nor there and merely reflects their individual attitudes.
To dismiss Zionism as merely a racist / right wing colonialist movement is misplaced and denies the internal Jewish paradigm. I think it can be easily argued that Zionism was an entirely rational response to historic oppression and denial of basic human rights for the majority of Jews East & West. It cannot be denied that historically Jews have sought to return to the "Holy Land" and acquire the means to determine their futures as an automous entity. That this was not feasible until the late 19th C does not in itself diminish the ambition. Denial of the Mizrachi Jewish experience in Muslims lands guarantees continual polarisation. The tendency to award credibility to Muslim accounts of the experience of Jews in Muslim lands is akin to affording the White majority in the sotuhern US states credibility in relation to the experiences of Afro-Americans.

Rsd as usual comes up with a lot of hot air to try and excuse,the occupation-murder-torture-humiliation-oppression and theft of palestinian lands and rights by coming with arguments to defend zionism and show jews as victims.
wakey wakey RSD you are no longer victms you the oppressors and killers,the people of palestine are the victims of zionist actions.
Your euqation of jews living in muslims lands to the evil visted by slave masters,who killed-tortured and raped at will is a insult to muslims and the black people who lost tens of millions in the slave trade.

So, if you want a fighting chance and lots of applause, then say, as much as you can on how you love Isreal, how you stand by their crimes and say it's their freedom to fight against terrisom (a ghost created by more ghosts to incite fear) AND you'll be ok.

The man is a sell out. He knew he needed more votes, he needed the zionists backing, he also feared that if he doesn't beg, kiss their butt, and say, as much as he can on the issue number 1 which is is, "we love you isreal" then he may not win or even get close.

Check out every speech he does. He either defends Isreal and the zionists, or has to say something about Isreal and now he chats about the isreali soldiers.

Jeeesh, why doesn't that not surprise me.

RSD,

There are number of your contentions I dispute. A major stumbling block to resolving the Israeli/Palestinian issue is the zionist belief that Israel belongs exclusively to Jews. They believe they have a divine right to the Holy land, and this has elongated into a political movement, with a vast media lobby, which has a tangible policy to isolate and remove contrary faiths from the Holy Land. The Zionist political leadership, state Israel is a home for ALL Jews around the world who are fleeing persecution elsewhere. But scratching away the veneer, one can see the real motive behind this, is many Jews believe Israel to be their promised land and the Palestinian Cristsians, Palestinian Muslims and the Orthodox Christians an unecessary obstacle that is preventing their ambitions coming to fruition. Hence the title of 'Children of God.' Have you wondered where the Christians of Bethlehem have dissappered to? So, for you to dismiss this aspect of geopolitics as an internal jewish matter when it has had profound implications on the global arena, is an over-simplification of the issue. And, my assertions on zionism are not misplaced. Many members of the Zionist movement view Judaism on the basis of race and not faith. Furthermore, Zionist treatment of Messianic Jews of Ethiopian descent is nothing short of contempt and the element of race is one of many influences in this factor. How many black Jews have occupied or occupy positions of power in the state of Israel?

RSD, how can you believe Zionsim to be accepted as a rational movement due to the suffering experienced by many Jews. Two wrongs do not make a right? Are you condoning the Zionist terror bombing of the King David Hotel where over 90 people died on the basis of Nazi oppression? The brutal bombing was ordered by no less than Menachem Begin, who one day would be Israel’s Prime Minister. So do not tell me Zionism is not racist, right-wing, or terror free. Finally, contrary to your opinions, historicaly, before zionsim revealed it's ugly head, Muslims treated Jews with respect. Have you conveniently forgotten how muslims worked and lived peacefully together in Andalous, under muslim rule. And, muslims and jews were both victims of the barbaric Spanish inquisition. It was the muslims who gave the Jews religious freedom in the Holy Land to practice their faith, after the brutality of the Cristian crusade. Did you know there are over 20,000 Jews in Iran that practice and live their faith acordingly. If you are pleading ignorance, there are large communities of Jewish people in muslim countries throughout the world, that live, work and socialise with their muslim neightbours (Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen) who do not want to go back to the state of Israel, beacuse of Zionist policy and rule.

Are you a text book bore, spending endless hours reading, and then thinking you have become an expert in international issues?? If yes, my advice, to you is to interact with people from other faihs, and preferable travel.

RSD,
There are number of your contentions I dispute. A major stumbling block to resolving the Israeli/Palestinian issue is the zionist belief that Israel belongs exclusively to Jews. They believe they have a divine right to the Holy land, and this has elongated into a political movement, with a vast media lobby, which has a tangible policy to isolate and remove contrary faiths from the Holy Land. The Zionist political leadership state Israel is a home for ALL Jews around the world. Many Jews believe Israel to be their promised land and the Palestinian Cristsians, Palestinian Muslims and the Orthodox Christians an unecessary obstacle that is preventing their ambitions coming to fruition. Hence the title of 'Children of God.' Have you wondered where the Christians of Bethlehem have dissappered to. So, for you to dismiss this aspect of geopolitics as an internal jewish matter when it has had profound implications on the global arena, is an over-simplification of the reality. And, my assertions on zionism are not misplaced. Many members of the Zionist movement view Judaism on the basis of race and not faith. Furthermore, Zionist treatment of Messianic Jews of Ethiopian descent is nothing short of contempt and race is one of many influences in this factor. How many black Jews have occupied or occupy positions of power in the state of Israel? How can you believe Zionsim to be accepted as a rational movement due to the suffering experienced by many Jews. Two wrongs do not make a right? Are you condoning the Zionist terror bombing of the King David Hotel where over 90 people died on the basis of Nazi oppression? The brutal bombing was ordered by no less than Menachem Begin, who one day would be Israel’s Prime Minister. So do not tell me Zionism is not racist, right-wing, or terror free. Contrary to your opinions, historicaly, before zionsim revealed it's ugly head, Muslims treated Jews with respect. Have you conveniently forgotten how muslims worked and lived peacefully together in Andalous, under muslim rule. And, muslims and jews were both victims of the barbaric Spanish inquisition. It was the muslims who gave the Jews religious freedom in the Holy Land to practice their faith, after the brutality of the Cristian crusade. Did you know there are over 20,000 Jews in Iran that practice and live their faith acordingly. If you are pleading ignorance, there are large communities of Jewish people in muslim countries throughout the world, that live, work and socialise with their muslim neightbours (Morocco, Tunisia, Egyot, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen) who do not want to go back to the state of Israel, because of Zionist policy and rule.

It is interesting that before even the American people can have a say on who should be the next president, it is AIPAC who must approve the candidates first. How humiliating that Obama should go to AIPAC beg to be allowed through! 'American Israeli'? Excuse me! American-Jewish, yes. But American -Israeli, no! Just shows that the zionists do divided loyalties, and do not support USA 100% In short they are the fifth column.

Such is the Zionist noose around Liberty!

This has not gone un-noticed by the American people.

How long will it be before the American people rid themselves of the zionist beast? It is as though, in a cruel 'rodeo' the American stallion is being ridden by the zionist beast. Time the horse threw off its rider. And the global audience will cheers louder than ever it has done!

Time to give the zionists the stark choice: you're either American, or you are Israeli. You fool us no more.

Henry

Jews were treated as second class citizens in all Islamic lands and had less rights than Israeli arabs have today.

as for 'true jews' not being Zionist you are very wrong. The very few 'anti-zionist' Jews dissaprove of Isrzel's secular nature and lack of messianic redemption. Be under no missaprehension that should the messiah apprear they will be the first to return to the land and remove all non-Jewish inhabitants.

Zionism and judaism are deeply interlinked and most Jews today support the state of israel in some way. Not all Zionists however share the same view about the relationhip with the Palstinans and many advocate the need to share the land between them.

By the way, not sure where the revelling in Jesus' death comes from - did you just make that up? Im mean if Zionists do that in private how do you about it?

Onlooker I am sure you would be happy if muslims had treated jews the way they were treated during the inquisition-crusades and world war two.
The way the palestinians are daily killed-tortured-humiliated and oppressed if muslims had done that to jews for 1300 years ther would be no jews left in the middleast.
since israels occupation of palestine all the palestianians have known is evil and sadistic occupation.

onlooker, you need to look beyond your bushy beard and yamulka

Every line of your post speaks of ignorance and xenophobia. The more I read your thread, your ignorance shines even more. Palestinians today, are not even treated as second class citizens, they are treated WORSE. And, that is an undeniable fact! How you zionists can justify this mal-treatment is beyond the pale. And if Jews are mis-treated in muslim countries, where is the evidence? Are the Jews living and working in Morocco, Yemen, Egypt, Tunisia, Malaysia, Syria oppressed? Do they live amongst a huge wall, whilst negotiating every 500 yards at a checkpoint?Are these Jews under occupation? Do these jews suffer the humilation of strip and search on a daily basis? The answer is an emphatic NO? Furthermore, Genocides committed against jewry was done by non-muslims (Spanish Inquisition, Holocaust), in case you forgot. If the muslim countries were zionist, similar to the state of Israel, then every Jew living under their rule would be expelled right now, something the Zionsits in Israel are doing to this day.

Your view on zionism and Judaism being inter-linked, gives me the impression, you are claiming the Torah, advocates violence against non-Jews, oppression, ethnic cleansing, and murder. Because, any individual with degree of intellect understands, that is what Zionism stand for. The few right-wing fanatics like yourself live in a state of denial and glory, thinking you are going to heaven. Well, guess what, you are going to be in for one Hell(literally) of a rude awakening. Because, GOD, if it is the Jewish, Christian, or Muslim one, never accepts cruelty, oppression and the murder of innocent Palestinian men, women, and children.

And when the messiah does appear, he will end the occupation, slavery and murder and will bring justice and equality for ALL. And zionists and their cheerleaders will be banished.

And for you to believe all zionists and Jews actually saw Jesus as their saviour and messiah shows how deluded and closeted you really are, see attached link, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7413134.

Still wearing your yamulka and your facial furniture?

onlooker, you need to look beyond your bushy beard and yamulka

Every line of your post speaks of ignorance and xenophobia. The more I read your thread, your ignorance shines even more. Palestinians today, are not even treated as second class citizens, they are treated WORSE. And, that is an undeniable fact! How you zionists can justify this mal-treatment is beyond the pale. And if Jews are mis-treated in muslim countries, where is the evidence? Are the Jews living and working in Morocco, Yemen, Egypt, Tunisia, Malaysia, Syria oppressed? Do they live amongst a huge wall, whilst negotiating every 500 yards at a checkpoint?Are these Jews under occupation? Do these jews suffer the humilation of strip and search on a daily basis? The answer is an emphatic NO? Furthermore, Genocides committed against jewry was done by non-muslims (Spanish Inquisition, Holocaust), in case you forgot. If the muslim countries were zionist, similar to the state of Israel, then every Jew living under their rule would be expelled right now, something the Zionsits in Israel are doing to this day.

Your view on zionism and Judaism being inter-linked, gives me the impression, you are claiming the Torah, advocates violence against non-Jews, oppression, ethnic cleansing, and murder. Because, any individual with degree of intellect understands, that is what Zionism stand for. The few right-wing fanatics like yourself live in a state of denial and glory, thinking you are going to heaven. Well, guess what, you are going to be in for one Hell(literally) of a rude awakening. Because, GOD, if it is the Jewish, Christian, or Muslim one, never accepts cruelty, oppression and the murder of innocent Palestinian men, women, and children.

And when the messiah does appear, he will end the occupation, slavery and murder and will bring justice and equality for ALL. And zionists and their cheerleaders will be banished.

And for you to believe all zionists and Jews actually saw Jesus as their saviour and messiah shows how deluded and closeted you really are. I have met numerous of these type. See also attached link, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7413134.

Still wearing your yamulka and your facial furniture?

Henry,

for the record I wear nothing on either my head nor my face and am very far from being an advocate of the occupation of the west bank and gaza region.Im not sure what references you are making to religious garb and appearances but it seems unnecessary.

I do take exception to your view that somehow you are able to determine the definition and status of 'true Jews' and base this on a simplistic interpretation that to support a modern Jewish state goes against jewish belief - this is far from the truth. My comments simply reflected the fact that your so called 'true jews' probably share views that are much more extreme than that of regular modern Jews and Israelis. Indeed the return to the biblical Jewish homeland has been a well established element of Jewish prayer and theological belief for more than 2000 years and the debate around awaiting redemption has always been hotly contested.

Nothing can justify the ongoing violence that is currently being subjected to Palestians by Israel and to israeli civilians by the Palestinians. I share the views of manay Israels that at some point an amicable solution will be agreed that allows both sides to prosper.

Henry, you confuse "Jews", "Israelis" and "Zionists" to such a perfect extent that it is clear you sometimes mean "Jews" when you write "Zionist".

When you say "I have met and conversed with many Zionists in the UK and in Palestine who condone the crucification of Jesus, accusing Jesus of being an imposter and blasmpherous" then you obviously mean "Jews".

And you forget that 80m Zionists asre actually Christians who certainbly believe everything about Jesus.

You're caught out!

WMR) -- One of the over 120 Israeli "art students" who cased federal office buildings and military bases during a year and a half before the 9/11 attacks has revealed details of her "assignment" in the United States to a WMR source.

The former art student, who is now assigned to work with a non-governmental organization (NGO) in South Africa on research on violent crime against South African whites by blacks, said she was first assigned to work at an Israeli-owned shopping mall kiosk in Orange County, California, in early 2001 to "brush up on her American English language skills."

From California the young Israeli woman was transferred to Chicago and then to Houston, where she worked in an office close to the sprawling port facility. Her "cover" was as an accountant for an Israeli intelligence front company involved in the shipping business. It should be noted that former CIA Southeast Region Station Chief Roland V. Carnaby, shot to death on April 29 by two Houston police officers, was known to have been concerned about the lack of security at the port of Houston, was monitoring the activities of Israeli intelligence in the greater Houston area, and was known to have clashed with the Department of Homeland Security over its lack of interest in providing security for the Port of Houston.

After her stint in Houston, the Israeli art student was transferred to New York City for a two-week "holiday." However, she and her group were ordered by their superiors to be "out of the city" on September 11, 2001.

The Israeli woman was granted access to the United States on a student visa and she was identified as an "art student" in her visa application. It was later discovered that none of the Israeli "art students" were, in fact, art students. Those detained as a result of a joint investigation by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), the Marshal's Service, and other federal law enforcement agencies were simply deported to Israel without facing a trial for wrongly stating their purpose for coming to the United States.

The Israeli "art student" also claimed that while working at mall kiosks in California she was "working on other things."

Previously published in the Wayne Madsen Report.

Copyright © 2008 WayneMadenReport.com

Henry,
Zionism was, as perhaps still is, a rational response by Jews in the late 19th C through to the mid-late 20thC. However prior to the Holocaust Assimilationism and Ghettoisation still held sway for most. The events of the 19th & 20th C demonstrated to the Jews that neither Assimilationism nor Ghettoisation could offer meaningful security. For both the Askenazi and Sephardi/Mizrachi Jews there proved to be little alternative than to flock to the Zionist option. In neither Christian nor Muslim lands was there any evidence that their neighbours would stand by the Jews in any significant number when there was a threat of violence or oppression. What also was certain was that the Christian & Muslim were countries weren't willing to accept and absorb displaced and threatened Jews in significant numbers. Had the Muslim lands opened their doors to Jews in 1933 and enabled them to find refuge, then perhaps Israel would not have come into being as a distinct Jewish state. But they did not, any more than did Christian lands open their doors to provide refuge for the Jews that needed it. The excuses that are handed out in response to this today are just that feeble excuses. Following the establishment of Israel successive Middle Eastern Jewish communities were stripped of their rights and property and driven out in revenge for the "loss of Palestine". The mass punishment of the Middle Eastern Jews for the failures of the Arab League forces is equal to anything that the Palestinians experienced, and equally unjust.