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Oh What A Lovely Law Print E-mail
Thursday, 07 February 2008
balance_scale.jpg The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has gone and done it.  He mentioned the “M” word.  Let’s hope he’s prepared for all the fire and brimstone he’s about to face.  The Archbishop gave a radio interview and later gave a speech where he raised the issue of sharia law (Islamic based jurisprudence) and how he thought that its adoption at least in part “seems unavoidable”.

In a considered and thoughtful speech the archbishop added "We already have in this country a number of situations in which the internal law of religious communities is recognised by the law of the land as justifying conscientious objections in certain circumstances."

Dr Williams made a number of astute points about the issue that in normal times would give everyone food for thought and perhaps initiate a considered debate on the topic of civil law.  The problem is we aren’t living in “normal times”.  Prepare for lots of ominous warnings about beheadings, limb amputations and stoning and the thin end of the wedge in the gutter press.  The argument is simply too nuanced for their Editors.

Sharia is already here in the form of products and services such as sharia-compliant mortgages and food.  Secular law has already been altered to accommodate them.  They provide additional choice to consumers and give the suppliers new opportunities - a rare win-win situation.

The Archbishop alluded to Beth Din courts that are already established in the UK allowing British Jews an option to choose religious law in certain civil law matters instead of secular common law.  In effect the Bishop was arguing why Muslims can’t have the same.  Dr Rowan has a case but there are more powerful counter arguments.

Firstly this type of debate plays into the hands of the far-right and their fellow travellers in the Zionist community who are only too willing to portray British Muslims as a dangerous fifth column alien to British values and harbouring hostility to its citizens.  Who are these Muslims demanding this law?  Well hardly anyone actually although some Muslims are more keen than others to contribute to the debate.

There is also the thorny issue of community cohesion.  There are problems with some Muslim communities in Britain living an insular existence and not integrating easily.  A separate civil legal system could make the issue of integration more difficult.  There has been a lot of talk about values lately when discussing the issue of “British identity”.  The legal system is one of the key elements of a shared value system.  It should be applied equally to everyone and without prejudice.  Exceptionalism would promote an “us and them” attitude and increase resentment to Muslims even further.

Another additional issue is one of sanction.  Although the debate focuses on civil law the practical issue of sanction still arises.  How would judgements by sharia courts be enforced if a party failed to comply?  Who would pay for those courts?  Islam has several schools of thought.  Which one should have sharia courts?

Lastly a contentious but little debated issue is that Muslims that emigrated to Britain came here in the knowledge that sharia law does not operate in Britain and they came here anyway and have managed to live their lives without the need for its establishment.  How many Muslim countries actually operate a proper system of sharia law?  How can we expect a non-Muslim country to do something Muslim countries have not managed to?

There are more pressing issues facing Britain’s Muslims.  Tabloid Editors and Archbishops take note.
Readers have left 25 comments.
Mujaahid: Quote

Archbishop Williams' comments were a recognition of the changing demographics of the UK. It's a shame that his forthrightness and courage to accept reality has met with such hostility.
(1) 2008-02-08 01:46:07
Nigel Goodhue: Quote

Christians want Biblical law if Muslims get sharia law
(2) 2008-02-08 02:29:03
Cleo: Quote

Archbishop William's comments were idiotic and reckless. He will lose his job as a result. If anything positive comes out of this, it will be that the England wakes up and realize the stench of Sharia. This is simply absurd and only increases hostilities between non-Muslims and Muslims.
(3) 2008-02-08 04:13:53
Yunus Yakoub Islam: Quote

An intelligent and measured reponse from MPACUK.
(4) 2008-02-08 08:57:33
K. Urban: Quote

The comments from the Archbishop, otherwise a decent man, are unnecessary and grossly intimely.
Muslims are strongly urged not to make any comments that could be seen in any way as a 'threat' to the British way of life, British culture or British law.

We also rapidly need to be seen to be strongly supportive of and give comfort to the Country, regardless of and despite what we have been through.

Move on.


(5) 2008-02-08 09:30:29
F Cockburn: Quote

I would like to remind Nigel Goodhue and others that Islam requires that Muslims obey the law of the country.
All Muslims that I have talked to are proud of this Country and would not be seen to abide other than British law, as Islam requires.
(6) 2008-02-08 09:45:40
M. A. Yusufzai: Quote

Nigel, Muslims would be too happy to be governed by Biblical law (we call it Shariah law) However, do not be fanatical in your reaction. Which Biblical law you are talking about? The one enshrined in ten commandments or the one changed by the church to appease the public (gay marriages, ordination of women, cohabitation of unmarried men and women etc).

By the way Archbishop's opinion is very reasonable only if sensible people want to listen to him. In India, for example, penal laws are secular, left behind by the Britishers, but in cases of inheritance, marriage and divorce, all religious communities are governed by their laws known as "Personal laws" and Muslims are governed by "Muslim Personal law". And the people who do not want to be governed by these laws have the option to opt for secular (civil) law. These alternatives were also introduced during British rule. All the law students have to study these laws.
(7) 2008-02-08 10:16:24
A A: Quote

An intelligent and measured reponse from MPACUK.
— Yunus Yakoub Islam


And unintelligent responses from some of the commenters prior to your comment.

I am apalled at this open discrimination against Muslims.

Don't they realise that Sharia law applies only to Muslims and not to them. What do they have fear?

Cleo and gang, the only stench around here seems to be eminating from your xenophobic and hateful remarks.
(8) 2008-02-08 10:37:06
shan: Quote

Its nice to see bigots show their real hatred for islam and muslims.
if a man or women want to live the lives of whores as that is what it is,sleeping with diffrent people every week or so that is their right to do so.
if a person wants to live according to islamic law which prohibits such behaviour then it is bad and wrong,some peope truly have a perverted sense of freedom of faith.
(9) 2008-02-08 10:39:55
Karl Jones: Quote

Once you lot get even a tiny element of sharia law allowed in this country you will have opened the door and will push and push for more and more. NO, NO, NO NO! The only answer is to deport the lot of you.
(10) 2008-02-08 11:23:04
Sultan (Oxford): Quote

What the 'non-Muslims' do not understand is that some Christians and Jewish members of our Society ALREADY have a faith based system running side-by-side with the British Legal System, in matters of divorce, child custody, inheritance, etc.

If they can have it, and it works, then the Bishop is merely saying that there is no reason why Muslims can't have a similar system to deal with these same issues. AND this will be ONLY for the Muslims to choose between taking the sharia line or the British Legal line. There's more to Sharia Law than mere punishments.

Alas, when "Sharia Law" conjures up images of

1) Barbaric/Backwards Punishments met out by uneducated elders...and not real Scholars

2) Victims (virtually all women, and the poor) are being punished while the perpetrators (the men, and the rich) are let off scott-free

3) When there is no consistancy between the rulings between different Islamic States

4) When innocents such as the English teacher in Somalia are punished harshly over something they had not not done.

5) When men get 'married' to 'goats'

Then, is it any wonder why Muslims and Sharia Law are looked down upon (in contempt), and/or are a laughing stock.

We Muslims have miserably failed in our duties to uphold Sharia Law as practiced by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his Companions, where true justice was given. This included sound reasoning and gathering of evidence, punishment of the real guilty party (whether rich or poor, man or woman), support and help for the victims, and forgiveness where necessary.

No, wonder some Christians and the Jewish of past centuries chose (the same) Sharia Law above their own systems because they felt that Sharia Law would give them the justice, mercy and compensation that they sought.

This is the same Sharia Law that people now object to, and this is entirely the fault of us Muslims who do not know how to apply it, as it was intended.

The non-Muslims have nothing to fear in this matter.

We are not trying to replace it with the British System which does make use of many Sharia Principles already. A system that Muslims commend in the highest terms because people are bought to justice with real evidence rather than manufactured one or by a false witnesses (as it is done in our home countries).

As a final statement, I would encourage the non-muslims to allow Sharia Law into the British System to trial those Muslims who have cheated and continue to cheat the state in terms of benefit fraud, false claims, bogus marriages, etc, etc. when they are perfectly able bodied to do some halal work but choose to sit on their backsides and make false claims and use that money to make mansions back home. When this money really needs to go to the more deserving.

Bring it on and lets deal with such Muslims, who are giving the rest of the hard-working, tax-paying Muslims a bad name and cheat the system because the British system is too soft and they get away with it.

Take-Care and Wasalaams

(11) 2008-02-08 11:40:58
Xanana: Quote

Here we go again:

Beth Din: OK.
Sharia courts/councils: NO.

Church marriage: Legally Binding
Muslim marriage: Not legally recognised.

The laws of the land should apply equally to all. Either all non-Judicial rulings are enforcable or none of them is.

Can Sharia and Gay marriages co-exist in the same land, and both be 'legal'?

What I can't understand is why those Muslims who only want to live by Sharia law, still insist on continuing to live in the land of the Kuffar?

If I find myself in a toilet, and I think it stinks, why would I insist on wanting to stay there?



(12) 2008-02-08 12:18:23
Teddy Bear Blasphemer/ Cartoons: Quote

Its nice to see bigots show their real hatred for islam and muslims.

if a man or women want to live the lives of whores as that is what it is,sleeping with diffrent people every week or so that is their right to do so.
if a person wants to live according to islamic law which prohibits such behaviour then it is bad and wrong,some peope truly have a perverted sense of freedom of faith.
— shan


Such whore-ish behaviour may well be prohibited in islam....... but of coarse there is always the temporary marriage & temporary divorce get out clause when the muslim visits the knocking shop.......

Why does the ummah get so upset when kuffr expresses revulsion and hatred for a primitive arab imperialist belief system that has global ambitions to violently impose their will on the rest of humanity?

It is not the individual muslim that is hated by kuffr, it is the mohammudean meme that traps them in the all encompasing mental straight-jacket commonly known as islam.







(13) 2008-02-08 13:48:21
Reality's Sister: Quote

Sultan (Oxford)

You make some excellent points.

Perhaps there should be 'women-only' Sharia courts. That may be the only way to educate the Bearded Beasts of Bradford.

If there is a man/woman dispute then the court should be 50/50 male/female; otherwise its rulings should be considered as void.

We haven't come thousands of miles to the UK only to turn into 'imitation Arabs'.

Give Muslim women the power and the authority.

If a man takes a second wife then then the first one should be given immediate custody of their marital home, and children + maintenance. The man should also be made to re-apply for UK citizenship.

In cases of domestic violence, the man should not be allowed to legally marry ever again, and should be chemically castrated.

In cases of kidnap and forced marriages (which are in fact both 'kidnap') the husband's immediate family should be jailed for life.

'Yes' to true Islam, and no to rule by foolish, illiterate bearded village idiots. There's no place for them in the UK.

In the guise of 'Sharia', don't dare impose your 'male' crimes on women.

And Xanana: I agree with everything you say. Indeed, if the 'Dawah Table' boys think evreything in the UK (the land of 'Kuffar' as they call it) is disgusting and filthy, then why do they hang around in the 'toilet'?

Go, I say, go and be an Arab in Arabia.

In Britain you must be British. If that's a problem for you -- well you have a choice ...
(14) 2008-02-08 14:05:49
Menachamendel: Quote

From to-day's Times:-
A few weeks ago, I was chatting to a woman who works in an advocacy role for Muslim women in an area that, quite independently of the Bishop of Rochester, she described as a 'no-go area' for non-Muslims. Her clients were women in the process of being sectioned into mental health units in the NHS. This woman, who for obvious reasons begged not to be identified, told me: 'The men get tired of their wives. Or bored. Or maybe the wife objects to her daughter being forced into a marriage she doesn't want. Or maybe she starts wearing western clothes.There can be many reasons. The women are sent for asssessment to a hospital. The GP referring them is Muslim. The psychiatrist assessing them is Muslim and male. I have sat in these assessments where the psychiatrist will not look the woman patient in the eye because she is a woman. Can you imagine! A psychiatrist refusing to look his patient in the eye? The woman speaks little or no English. She is sectioned. She is divorced. There are lots of these women in there, locked up in these hospitals. Why don't you people write about this?'

My interlocuter went very red and almost started to cry. Instead, she began shouting at me. I was a member of the press. 'You must write about this,' she begged.

'I can't,' I said. 'Not unless you become a whistle-blower. Or give me some evidence. Or something.'

She shook her head. 'I can't be identified,' she said. 'I would be killed. And so would the women.'

So there you have it. After weeks of wondering what to do, inspired by the Archbishop, I've taken her word that she is telling the truth, respected her anonymity, and written it anyway.

And this, I imagine, is what the Archbishop wants for the whole of England. As they used to say in my father's country parish: 'Heaven preserve us!' I wonder what they're saying there today. Expressions somewhat shorter and sweeter, I fear.

IS THIS WHAT SHARIA & ISLAM IS ABOUT?
If you guys don't like the Law of England & indeed the United Kingdom, go somewhere more acceptable to you, say Saudi Arabia. Sure you will enjoy & derive great pleasure from the repressive regime there. You are free to move on, we ain't stopping any of you self-pitying, ungrateful bigots. Bye!!

(15) 2008-02-08 16:25:29
Iftikhar Ahmad: Quote

Salaam

Not only Muslim communities need Sharia laws but they need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models. State schools with non-Muslim monoglot teachers could not be role models for the Muslim children during their developmental periods.
(16) 2008-02-08 17:00:50
Anjum: Quote

Iftikhar Ahmed

Salaam

I disagree with you. There are good teachers and bad teachers, whether Muslim or not.

I would rather have a good non-Muslim teacher than a bad Muslim one.

The best thing is for Muslims to train to be excellent teachers so that they can teach in any kind of school.

It would be wrong to separate Muslim children away from the general society. Also, even in State-funded Muslim schools I would insist on western style uniforms and not Mock-Arab dress code. Certainly I would NOT allow the sick hijab-wearing by 5 and 6 year old girls!
(17) 2008-02-08 22:30:09
Charles Brooks: Quote

Xanana, this is a Christian country. If you think it stinks - leave.

ta-ta.
(18) 2008-02-08 22:53:56
Cleo: Quote

When a non-Muslim (myself, and proud of it) objects to Shariah law, I am a racist. Yet, Iftikahar and his ilk have the right to assume all non-Muslim teachers are useless and bad role models for young muslims. Can someone answer me what shariah law means for homosexuals? females? Why do Muslims live among the Kuffir if you detest us? And you ask why there is tension? You break your own world into dar al Islam and dar al harb. Why on earth should I respect your law (s) when they belong in the middle ages.
(19) 2008-02-08 22:54:19
Aliyah Shakur: Quote

MCB Press Release:

We Need a Thoughtful Discourse, Not Hysterical Discord

The Muslim Council of Britain is grateful for the thoughtful intervention of the Archbishop of Canterbury on the discussion of the place of Islam and Muslims in Britain today.

The MCB observes, with some sadness, the hysterical misrepresentations of his speech which serves only to drive a wedge between British people.

"The Archbishop is not advocating implementation of the Islamic penal system in Britain. His recommendation is confined to the civil system of Shariah Law and that only in accordance with English law and agreeable to established notions of human rights", said Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, Secretary General of the MCB.

British Muslims are not calling for creation of different legal systems, nor is the Archbishop. We do not wish to see a parallel system or a separate system of judiciary for Muslims. The Archbishop sought in his speech to explore the possibilities of an accommodation between English law and some aspects of Islamic personal law.

British Muslims would wish to seek parity with other faiths in particular the followers of the Jewish faith in the United Kingdom in facilitating choices for those who wish, as Muslims, for their personal relationships to be governed by a Shariah civil code. This legitimate aspiration requires full discussion in an atmosphere of understanding and tolerance. It is worthy of note that already enshrined in English law are provisions for Islamic Shariah compliant finance which have become very popular and now enable billions of pounds of fresh investment to come into the UK.

'Our common mission to live in cohesion and harmony is better served when men of conscience and authority speak out for justice and equal opportunity. Silence is much more likely to engender prejudice, injustice and inequality. On the issue of giving individuals choice of law but only in private and personal matters, we call, as does the Archbishop, for a mature debate in an environment that reflects mutual respect.' said Dr Bari.
(20) 2008-02-09 00:10:10
shan: Quote

cleo your comments show your lack of knowledge of the matter or you are deliberatly being naive.
sharia law has got nothing to do with you,it would applicable on muslims who wish to be judged according to sharia law.
if a muslim does not wish to be dealt with sharia law he cannot be forced to do so.
so lets stop the hysterical rants and check the facts.
Btw sultan if you are a muslim as the name implies,then you must be having bad dreams about goats lately because the guy who was forced to marry the goat was either a pagan or christian from south sudan.
Anjum you said sick hijab wearing 5 or 6 year olds, so to wear a peice of cloth to cover your head is sick,so those children should dress accroding to your whims.
(21) 2008-02-09 10:49:30
M. A. Yusufzai: Quote

Oh my God! Iftikhar Ahmad come to your sense. A good teacher (as a matter any professional as long as keeps his ideology to himself) is a good teacher regardless of his background. In India I was taught by several Hindu teachers some of them so good that I will remember them all of my life. My children in the UK attend a Roman Catholic school where some of the teachers are really excellent.

I have often seen your long postings but never bothered to read them and I wonder if they are as irresponsible and as senseless as this. May God protect the Muslims from friends like you.
(22) 2008-02-09 12:02:32
Xanana: Quote

Charles Brooks

You and your fellow Evangelists (look up the well known anagram) should stop fantasising: this land stopped being a 'Christian' (whatever that means!) country when the first gun was fired in the First World War.

When it had a pretence of Christianity about it, elderly women were routinely burned in public, after being conveniently accused of witchcraft.

In any case you've comletely misread what I said: those who insist on evrything western being evil, should indeed leave.
However, Muslims are here to stay: if you don't like it, YOU leave. Go and live in the Vatican.

We are a secular country and we don't want Evangelists here.

ta-ta.
(23) 2008-02-09 23:32:23
M Khan: Quote

Most people don't know what Sharia law is.

They think it means beheadings stonings and amputations.

I would ask any Muslim brothers who will be writing letters to the press or leaving comments on websites to remind people exactly what Sharia law enshrines:-

The acts of worship, or al-ibadat, these include:
Ritual Purification (Wudu)
Prayers (Salah)
Fasts (Sawm and Ramadan)
Charities (Zakat)
Pilgrimage to Mecca (Hajj)

Human interaction, or al-mu'amalat, which includes:
Financial transactions
Endowments
Laws of inheritance
Marriage, divorce, and child care
Foods and drinks (including ritual slaughtering and hunting)
Penal punishments
Warfare and peace
Judicial matters (including witnesses and forms of evidence)
(24) 2008-02-10 13:01:01
RSD: Quote

Xanana: While the majority of UK's indigenous population may no longer be active practicing Christians, the majority nevertheless do regard Christianity as being something they believe in, in general terms. It is also undeniable that British institutions and the British values evolved out of Christianity. If you care to study the evolution of Christianity in Britain you will note that Britain developed a number of schools of Christian thought which espouse a range of values based on Christianity. These ideas transfered to the Americas and are reflected there in their "purer" form in a way that is less common here.
It is true that there were periods when extremism produced some abominable acts of violence, but these are not peculiar to Christianity. On the other hand the ideas that developed from the late 16th C onward in Britain provided the foundation for what we regard as universal human rights. These same ideals also led the British to take the first practical steps to stop international slave trading.
Whatever Britain may be in terms of faith, it is an astonishingly tolerant society where the rule of law applies and people are generally treated equally. If Britian were otherwise and other nations so much better, people would be leaving in droves, as they do in a large number of other countries, and the Muslim population would number but a few hundred.
(25) 2008-02-12 19:16:22
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