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| UK terror detention limit is longest of any democracy |
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| Monday, 12 November 2007 | |
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The survey, by the human rights organisation Liberty, was carried out by lawyers and academics in 15 countries. It shows that the four-week maximum in Britain outstrips limits in countries that have also suffered al-Qaida inspired terrorist attacks in recent years, including the United States, Spain and Turkey. Although police in these countries also face increasingly complex terror plots with growing international dimensions, their maximum periods for pre-charge detention remain as short as 48 hours in the US, five days in Spain and seven and a half days in Turkey. The findings are released as MPs await the publication of a new counter-terrorism bill that will propose extending detention without charge beyond 28 days. Police chiefs have argued that complex investigations, including trawling computers and telephones for evidence of terrorist plots, mean they need the option of holding suspects for longer. But critics have expressed concern that police have failed to bring forward compelling evidence to show the need for an extension. The home secretary, Jacqui Smith, is determined to avoid a repeat of the humiliating Commons defeat suffered by Tony Blair two years ago when he proposed a 90-day limit and saw 49 Labour MPs rebel. Ministers have indicated they would favour a maximum of up to 56 days, but no government position has been made clear. There is evidence that Gordon Brown has not yet formed any strong personal opinion and he is said to remain "genuinely open-minded" on his preferred option. Liberty's experts around the world found that in comparable democracies the closest equivalent to a charge for those who have been detained in connection with terrorist activities must happen within days and not the months or even the years claimed by those who want to double the British limit to eight weeks. The absence of a final decision has been reflected in a slippage of the publication date of the counter-terror bill. It was expected to appear by the end of this month but has now been pencilled in for December-January, with Smith only saying publicly that she hopes it will happen by Christmas. The home secretary has claimed that carrying out international comparisons of pre-charge detention limits are so complex that they are on a level with doing a PhD thesis, while the Metropolitan police commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, has claimed that in countries such as France and Germany judicial oversight allows people to be detained for years. Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, said any extension of pre-charge detention would put Britain even further out of line with comparable democracies around the world: "The new prime minister is neither Tony nor Ian Blair. I have every hope that this new, damning evidence, alongside proportionate alternatives to lengthy pre-charge detention, will persuade him to think again." She said the Liberty study "explodes self-serving assertions about extended detention in inquisitorial Europe and other western democracies. It makes embarrassing reading for all of us in the land that gave Magna Carta to the world." The human rights organisation acknowledged that comparisons with other common law systems such as in Canada, New Zealand and Australia were more straightforward than those with inquisitorial civil law systems such as France and Germany, but said it had asked legal experts in each country to identify the closest equivalent to pre-charge detention. "We found that the closest equivalent to a charge must happen within a matter of days, not months or years as Sir Ian Blair and others have suggested," the Liberty study concludes. It also warns that any extension of pre-charge detention in Britain could have broader implications around the world and give the green light to other governments such as Robert Mugabe's in Zimbabwe to pass more draconian anti-terror laws: "Some states, and some individuals seeking to radicalise Muslim youths also might use the disparity to undermine the UK's claim to civility and moral authority." Source: The Guardian Readers have left 24 comments.
Zesto:
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As Melanie Phillips pointed-out in her Spectator Blog, Shami is wrong.
After the recent murder in Italy the police said that teh suspects could be held for up to a year. What does this means:- ""Some states, and some individuals seeking to radicalise Muslim youths also might use the disparity to undermine the UK's claim to civility and moral authority." I know. Its a veiled threat again. I don't see sikhs and Hindus protesting that anti-terror laws will have much affect on them. I don't see Jehovah's Witnesses complaining, or the YMCA or the Church of England etc. The laws are designed to catch and jail "radicalised Muslim youths" who are planning terrorism. A move you must all welcome.
(1)
2007-11-13 07:40:52
Syed:
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The laws are designed to catch and jail "radicalised Muslim youths" who are planning terrorism. A move you must all welcome. — Zesto
(2)
2007-11-13 09:42:50
Zesto:
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The laws are designed to catch and jail "radicalised Muslim youths" who are planning terrorism. A move you must all welcome. — SyedDr Bari (and his supporters) don't seem to know the difference between Nazi Germany and the UK today! According to an item on 5Live last week the police have identified 200 people who were 'radicalised' and who are now in prison. Doesn't seem to be much of a problem.
(3)
2007-11-13 10:19:10
Anti-zionist:
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Zesto I agree with you entirely, if only the government made the same laws for brainwashed Zionists than the world really would be a safer place.
Wouldn't you agree?
(4)
2007-11-13 10:53:49
Syed:
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According to an item on 5Live last week the police have identified 200 people who were 'radicalised' and who are now in prison. — ZestoDoesn't seem to be much of a problem.
(5)
2007-11-13 10:55:49
Zesto:
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Zesto I agree with you entirely, if only the government made the same laws for brainwashed Zionists than the world really would be a safer place. — Anti-zionistWouldn't you agree? Absolutely! All people in the UK should be treated equally. WHen a minority group receives attention beyond its position and importance in society, referencing their number, then there is something wrong. Its a bit like a collective Munchausens Syndrome by Proxy. Some of us do hanker for saying "Do shut up!" quite often.
(6)
2007-11-13 14:21:14
Zesto:
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According to an item on 5Live last week the police have identified 200 people who were 'radicalised' and who are now in prison. — SyedDoesn't seem to be much of a problem. Yes. I believe that the Muslim spokesperson (sorry I can't remember their name) made these ad nauseum points. However, the more important fact was the success against terrorists and we all look forward to some pending trials in the pipeline.
(7)
2007-11-13 14:23:31
Anti-Zionist:
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Zesto,
Were finally on the same ball here. I agree its a bit like Cable Street all over again
(8)
2007-11-13 15:26:28
Syed:
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To summarise for readers that have only just seen this article, I'll paraphrase:
Zesto: Everyone must welcome laws designed to jail young radical Muslims. Me: We do. However, it's not just the radicals that these laws effect, as the Police don't seem to know the difference between a radicalised and non-radicalised Muslim. Zesto: They must do, as Five Live stated that 200 have been arrested. Me: For everyone of those 200 a disproportionate number of innocent Muslims (in the thousands) have been arrested and detained, and in some cases even put under house arrest without trial. Zesto: All that matters is that the radicals have been caught. Amazing! So it seems Zesto believes that concepts of human rights and civil liberties goes out the window when it comes to terrorism cases; deliberately ignoring the fact that for the vast majority of cases it's the rights of INNOCENT people that are being suspended. How long before ALL Muslims need to carry special ID badges and register their movements with a central office? After all we're ALL potential terrorists, right?
(9)
2007-11-13 15:35:05
Zesto:
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To summarise for readers that have only just seen this article, I'll paraphrase: — SyedZesto: Everyone must welcome laws designed to jail young radical Muslims. Me: We do. However, it's not just the radicals that these laws effect, as the Police don't seem to know the difference between a radicalised and non-radicalised Muslim. Zesto: They must do, as Five Live stated that 200 have been arrested. Me: For everyone of those 200 a disproportionate number of innocent Muslims (in the thousands) have been arrested and detained, and in some cases even put under house arrest without trial. Zesto: All that matters is that the radicals have been caught. Amazing! So it seems Zesto believes that concepts of human rights and civil liberties goes out the window when it comes to terrorism cases; deliberately ignoring the fact that for the vast majority of cases it's the rights of INNOCENT people that are being suspended. How long before ALL Muslims need to carry special ID badges and register their movements with a central office? After all we're ALL potential terrorists, right? Syed, I'll say that's a fair summary. Let me tell you why its important to do everything in our power to capture all potential terrorist - even if we have to have a few draconian laws for a small while. If there were to be another terrorist outrage like 7/7 and carried-iout by Muslim Terrorists then we may be into the Rivers of Blood scenario predicted by Enoch Powell. There may well be race riots with Muslims the victims. Innocent, every-day, peaceful Muslims may suffer bloodshed. We MUST avoid that at all costs because it would be a bloodbath. Surely, you can agree we must avoid such a tragedy?
(10)
2007-11-13 16:20:16
Colin:
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To summmarise for Syed and Zesto: if you detained all the Jehovah's Witnesses in the UK, you'd be very unlikely to net a single would-be suicide bomber, whereas if you detained every Muslim in the UK, you'd be likely to net most if not all of them. Ths scope for action lies somewhere in the commonsensical between, but the police should not be fooling around detaining Jehovah's Witnesses. Up against suicide bombers, you look for them where common sense and experience tells you are they most likely to be found.
God protect us from people of Shami's ilk.
(11)
2007-11-13 16:35:23
shamsur:
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To summmarise for Syed and Zesto: if you detained all the Jehovah's Witnesses in the UK, you'd be very unlikely to net a single would-be suicide bomber, whereas if you detained every Muslim in the UK, you'd be likely to net most if not all of them. Ths scope for action lies somewhere in the commonsensical between, but the police should not be fooling around detaining Jehovah's Witnesses. Up against suicide bombers, you look for them where common sense and experience tells you are they most likely to be found. — ColinGod protect us from people of Shami's ilk. I think Bible bashers/crusaders in the USA, UK and France should stop warmongering and killing Muslims, than Muslims may stop harmng thwem in their own countries. Ironic it is when millions are killed in the name of the cross (please save me all other rubbish excuses George Bush confirmed it as a crusade) there are Christaians out there who will support zionists in the beleif that all muslims shpuld be locked up to cure the problem. The problem will never dissapear. If it were to dissapear than there would not be any conflict in the world. Every nation or people would just sit there and take the beating.
(12)
2007-11-13 16:59:26
Zesto:
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To summmarise for Syed and Zesto: if you detained all the Jehovah's Witnesses in the UK, you'd be very unlikely to net a single would-be suicide bomber, whereas if you detained every Muslim in the UK, you'd be likely to net most if not all of them. Ths scope for action lies somewhere in the commonsensical between, but the police should not be fooling around detaining Jehovah's Witnesses. Up against suicide bombers, you look for them where common sense and experience tells you are they most likely to be found. — shamsurGod protect us from people of Shami's ilk. I think Bible bashers/crusaders in the USA, UK and France should stop warmongering and killing Muslims, than Muslims may stop harmng thwem in their own countries. Ironic it is when millions are killed in the name of the cross (please save me all other rubbish excuses George Bush confirmed it as a crusade) there are Christaians out there who will support zionists in the beleif that all muslims shpuld be locked up to cure the problem. The problem will never dissapear. If it were to dissapear than there would not be any conflict in the world. Every nation or people would just sit there and take the beating. Islamic fundamentalist terrorism pre-dates this nonsense you call a Crusade. In fact Muslim/Arabs started the conflict in the Middle East which resulted in the original Crusades. Its just a selective quote for self-victimisation. Why aren't you protesting that the Daily Express carries a Crusader on its coat of arms and is known as a Crusading newspaper. Why aren't we talking about the Islamic aim to re-take Al Andalus and re-invade Europe as it did at one time until defeated at the Battle of Tours? YOU have cast this as a war between religions. What "war against Islam" was it when we saved the Bosnians? This spurious "We are under attack by Christians" are the words of people who's true desire is to support terrorism. I am utterly appaled with someone who can make a war on terror into a war under a Cross. Shame on you!
(13)
2007-11-13 18:49:58
Zubair:
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As Melanie Phillips pointed-out in her Spectator Blog, Shami is wrong. — ZestoWell if Melanie Phillips says so then it must be true, she's the voice of impartiality isn't she!? I don't think you could find a more opinionated biased columnist if you tried!
(14)
2007-11-13 19:31:59
RSD:
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Let us all be clear and end this silliness once and for all. If Pres. Bush was intent on waging a "Crusade" against Muslims in Iraq in medieval conotation, then we should reasonably expect to witness events similar to those of that period. Despite the brutality that we are witnessing there has been no massacre of Muslims in Basra, Baghdad or elsewhere by the US or UK forces. Muslims haven't been disarmed to be massacred by Christians and others. US & UK forces haven't waded knee deep in the blood of infidels.
The use of this interpretation of the term Crusade serves only to polarise the communities and divert attention away from the criminal activities of Iraqi groups in Iraq in which they are killing Iraqis. It serves also to deflect people's attention away from the fact that Syria and Iran are set about to destabilise Iraq to ensure that it does not develop into a stable egalitarian and possibly democratic state. The last thing that eithe the Syrian or Iranian regimes want is an open tolerant democracy on their borders because democracy is like poison to fascist dictatorships.
(15)
2007-11-13 19:48:27
Syed:
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If there were to be another terrorist outrage like 7/7 and carried-iout by Muslim Terrorists then we may be into the Rivers of Blood scenario predicted by Enoch Powell. There may well be race riots with Muslims the victims. Innocent, every-day, peaceful Muslims may suffer bloodshed. — ZestoWe MUST avoid that at all costs because it would be a bloodbath. Surely, you can agree we must avoid such a tragedy?
(16)
2007-11-13 22:20:16
Colin:
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I must say that I admire Zesto for his patience in trying to sort out what - the to me incomprehensible - Shamsur is actually saying.
(17)
2007-11-13 23:33:58
Zesto:
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As Melanie Phillips pointed-out in her Spectator Blog, Shami is wrong. — ZubairWell if Melanie Phillips says so then it must be true, she's the voice of impartiality isn't she!? I don't think you could find a more opinionated biased columnist if you tried! Its true because its true. It doesn't become false because you don't like the observer. Melanie is a brilliant exposer of Islamism's designs on the World. Someone brave enough to articulate it.
(18)
2007-11-14 07:44:37
shamsur:
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I think anyone with half a brain who knows history and the crusades knows very well what they are even if you guys don't.
Please don't mention Bosnia when the killing was almost Complete when you guys showed the world that you are actually rescuing Muslims at the last minute. ( what if Jews were being massacered?) And if you think that innocent people in Iraq and Afganistan are not being killed by USA or UK troops than you must be deaf ,dumb and blind. If it is not a crusade than simply answer this. Why are almost 50 million Christians in the USA in partnership with Jewish groups hell bent on influencing American foreign Policy in the Muslim World? There is no conspiracy, you just have to ask the church leaders in the USA and they will tell you the truth, they see it as their biblical duty. At least their more honest than Zionists when it comes to the truth. Anyway isn't it Mossads slogan which is up on there front wall in Israel "by deception we shall prevail" it doesn't take a genious to work out the zionist agenda is to lie in order to rule. This crusade will again fail as previous crusades did. Because not everyone who goes to church to get married and burried is a christian these days. The faith has lost it's zest. And about melanie Phillips she is just a Zionist Calendar girl.
(19)
2007-11-14 09:55:33
Zesto:
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Let's now deal with some facts from Home Office data (As presented by the BBC today)
"According to the most up-to-date figures from the Home Office, between 11 September 2001 and 30 September 2006, police made 1,113 arrests under the Terrorism Act 2000. Of those, 104 were charged with specific anti-terrorism offences and a further 100 were charged under the act and other laws. Another 182 were charged under other criminal legislation. But two elements remain unclear - how many people have been successfully prosecuted - and how many of these are Muslims. A number of major terrorism-related trials with a large number of defendants are taking place during 2007, after which the numbers may become clearer." 104+100+182=386 charged. 1,113 arrests. Without using a calculator that's about 36% charged. That is extraordinarily high compared with charges against arrest. I belive the average is about 14% (please correct me as I'm doing it from memory). Hence, our anti-Terrorism laws are a success.
(20)
2007-11-14 10:48:12
Zesto:
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"And about melanie Phillips she is just a Zionist Calendar girl."
And who are the Islamist pin-up's? Inayat and Asghar. Come on!!!
(21)
2007-11-14 10:50:12
Pir:
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Zesto
Pls don't try to mislead. The figures for terrorism convictions are increasing because most of these trials are for possession of books...nothing to do with plots to cause death etc.
(22)
2007-11-14 12:10:23
Zesto:
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I think anyone with half a brain who knows history and the crusades knows very well what they are even if you guys don't. — shamsurPlease don't mention Bosnia when the killing was almost Complete when you guys showed the world that you are actually rescuing Muslims at the last minute. ( what if Jews were being massacered?) And if you think that innocent people in Iraq and Afganistan are not being killed by USA or UK troops than you must be deaf ,dumb and blind. If it is not a crusade than simply answer this. Why are almost 50 million Christians in the USA in partnership with Jewish groups hell bent on influencing American foreign Policy in the Muslim World? There is no conspiracy, you just have to ask the church leaders in the USA and they will tell you the truth, they see it as their biblical duty. At least their more honest than Zionists when it comes to the truth. Anyway isn't it Mossads slogan which is up on there front wall in Israel "by deception we shall prevail" it doesn't take a genious to work out the zionist agenda is to lie in order to rule. This crusade will again fail as previous crusades did. Because not everyone who goes to church to get married and burried is a christian these days. The faith has lost it's zest. And about melanie Phillips she is just a Zionist Calendar girl. Not very subtle! Your comments mean:- Jews lie! Jews manipulate the World! 50m US Christians are more powerful than the other 450m! And yet the Messainic predictions of the Christian Church are also echoed by the "Last Day" prophecies of Islam. Well, you have been reading too many of those Saudi pamphlets at the mosque. You are welcome to argue with me but accept defeat gracefully.
(23)
2007-11-14 14:32:46
shamsur:
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Zesto,
What Muslims don't tell you and i will is that its not saudi pamphlets you need to worry about to find your ultimate doom. Its the Qur'an where it is repeated that you will fail. You may escape the Islamists as you call them, but your journey to the truth will begin when you reach your grave. So please don't talk about defeat. Muslims argue and put forward the truth to poeple of other beleifs to wake them up to the truth which is in the Qur'an. "The antichrist as you call it in English and we call the Dajjal will definately lead an army of Jews, as stated in the Qur'an, no pamplet from Saudi Arabia or Japan can ever dispute that fact as it is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an. Jesus will than come down and destro the dajjal and tell the Cristian that he is a Muslim. Than as you can probably imagine what will happen than.... You mention defeat but let me clarify to you one thing, we never fail. Yes we may fail to convince you but that is not our loss, indeed the loss is yours. Get ready for the final hour as it is sure to come very soon. And just for your funny bones Inayet and Asghar are very far from becoming poster boys for islam. If anything i don't think ill even bother to mention the name of this years poster boy/man if you catch my drift.
(24)
2007-11-14 15:02:00
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Britain's existing 28-day limit on holding terror suspects without charge is already far longer than that for any comparable democracy, according to a study to be published today.










