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| Blair admits he is shocked by discrimination on the West Bank |
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| Monday, 15 October 2007 | |
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Why, Mr Blair wanted to know from his host, an Israeli general in civvies, couldn't goods also be moved directly across the border from the nearby Palestinian industrial park that he is pressing Israel to approve? "Why can't they go straight through?" Ah, that would be difficult, the general explained, requiring a whole new expensive security apparatus to check goods going into the park. We are a long from way from No 10. At Tarqumia to be precise, just inside the West Bank and one of those crossing points – a forbidding grey antenna and camera-studded complex of checkpoints still under construction. Mr Blair is on the road, grappling with the mind-numbing complexities of how the physical security infrastructure of the occupation has squeezed the Palestinian economy. It is a theme reinforced for him in Hebron, the Palestinian city whose core was once the thriving commercial hub of the southern West Bank. Its mayor, Khaled Osaily, briefs him extensively about how much of its old city is boarded up, stripped of Palestinian life because of the presence of some 800 Jewish settlers, and their military protectors. As Mr Blair's convoy threads out of the city through the afternoon Ramadan traffic afterwards, Mr Osaily compliments Mr Blair on his thirst for facts. No, they had not talked much about the prospects for the forthcoming US-convened Annapolis conference on which hopes of any revival of a peace process have no been vested by the international community and in the preparations for which Mr Blair is intimately involved. "He is a practical man," said Mr Osaily. "He asked many questions about daily life here. We talked about the economy, about movement, about security. He wanted to know details." Mr Blair gave the Israeli daily Yedhiot Ahronot his stock answer yesterday to questions about what he has learnt since taking the job. "I have learnt the depth of Israel's concern for security, and I have learnt the depth of the Palestinians' distress caused by the occupation." Certainly he accepts Israel's view that Palestinians should not have a state until it can reasonably guarantee its neighbour's security. Hence the importance he attaches to the efforts that US General Keith Dayton is making to beef up Palestinian security forces. Indeed he has been telling diplomats and others that the emergency Palestinian Prime Minister, Salam Fayad, does not enter Nablus because he will not make the deal with the militias needed to guarantee his security. He was shocked by what he was told about conditions in Hebron and diplomats say he was genuinely taken aback by his trip to the West Bank sector of the Jordan Valley – where Palestinians are allowed to dig wells only a third as deep as Israelis – at the exploitation of resources by the rich Jewish agricultural settlements at the expense of closed in Palestinian farmers. And he has been privately dismissive – rather more so perhaps than he was as Prime Minister – of the argument by some Israelis that security comes first, with economics and a political deal well behind it. "All three have to happen together" he has told diplomats – which is what he sees Annapolis as being about. This week he has been concentrating on the economics and is pressing Israel to permit job growth in the West Bank's Area C, where it has direct as well as total control – including a Japanese government plan for an "agro-industrial" park in the Jordan Valley. A key purpose of all this, of course, is to try to give the Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, something tangible to show for the outline political accord that he and the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, are under pressure to reach before Annapolis and which Mr Blair sees as a " stepping stone" to full negotiations for a final resolution. Some of the possible contours are beginning to clarify: a land swap to preserve the big West Bank Jewish settlements and, possibly, Israeli agreement in principle to East Jerusalem as a future Palestinian capital. But the obstacles could hardly be more potentially terminal. Mr Abbas, at least as much as Mr Olmert, will have to make concessions without yet having a final deal in return. And this at a time when a totally excluded Hamas will have every opportunity to sabotage any process. Yet none of this seems to dent Mr Blair's almost heroic optimism that it is " do-able." He accepts in private that settlement expansion will soon make a Palestinian state unrealisable, increasing the urgency of a solution. But he is said to believe that Mr Olmert sees a two-state solution as necessary in Israel's interests and accepts time is short. He thinks the similarities with Northern Ireland are as great as the differences but since it irritates Israelis for him to say so, he doesn't. But that doesn't stop him recalling how Ian Paisley told him early in his premiership there would never be an agreement in Northern Ireland. Source: The Independent Readers have left 29 comments.
Paul M:
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Those saying there will never be an agreement are Hamas, who are determined to end the Jewish state and impose dhimmi status on the few Jews likely to remain which of course can only be achieved through armed struggle.
Is MPAC suggesting we compare Hamas to Ian Paisley? Paisley may be something of a religious fanatic but at least he has never publicly endorsed attacks of physical violence on the 'enemy community' nor called for an ending to their equality before the law.
(1)
2007-10-15 09:48:23
JWD:
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Donch just love the Antisemitic Independent?
"at the exploitation of resources by the rich Jewish agricultural settlements at the expense of closed in Palestinian farmers" Why "RICH Jewish" when simply "Israeli agricultural settlements" would have conveyed the same message? I attach no blame to MPAC UK but I feel The Independent is going to come under scrutiny. Of course we can be shocked at the difference between a hi-tec and well-funded Israeli agricultural development and an underfunded, low-tec Palestinian effort. I happen to believe that a vibrant Palestinian economy would be a great seal of peace. But I fear some will try and keep the Palestinians poor by wrecking the peace to achieve the greater agenda of destroying Israel and turning the land back to Islam.
(2)
2007-10-15 12:53:17
George:
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JWD
The Independent truly is a repulsive rag encapsulating all that is wrong with the corrupt liberal West. The ideas expressed in it will eventually lead to the West's downfall I fear. There needs to be a cultural revolution in Britiain. Commonsense must prevail before White Van Man gets down from his van and starts knocking heads together at the behest of rabble-rousers.
(3)
2007-10-15 13:37:03
JWD:
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Well Done MPAC UK for recognising that large cut & paste propaganda is no substitute for debate (or getting one's own website).
Reference to some deleted comments.
(4)
2007-10-15 13:53:42
Taz:
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The Editor of The Independent is Jewish and besides how on earth is the Independent anti-Semitic? Oh! I see because it doesn't support Israel's murderous human-rights abuses against the Palestinians therefore it is anti-Semitic, because of course, all Jews support Israel and Israel speaks for all Jews. Hmmm maybe it is "JWD" who is the anti-Semite?
(5)
2007-10-15 14:45:08
Salim:
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JWD and Paul M, why don't you go an see how the isreal is oppressing the palestinian muslims. What do you expect when some forign power supported by the west forcefully take over your land, your homes and leave your community in destituion. Sadly the moment you criticise isrealy actions against the palestinian people you are labelled anti-semetic. The Jews or is it the zionist don;t even allow the freedom of speach. Well let me tell isreal will never have peace until they stop OPPRESSING the palestinians, they are resisting the isreali occupation of their land and good on them. You guys have a go at MPAC well theres enough pro isreali media out there already, its occasionally nice to see that the palestinians plight is been highlighted and the world leaders are finding out for themselves how oppresed they are under isreali occupation.
(6)
2007-10-15 15:45:20
George:
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Salim:
I take your points. You said: "Israel will never have peace until they stop OPPRESSING the palestinians." Will they really have peace once they have stopped? I don't think so. Do you really think Arafat wanted a Land for Peace deal? Do you really think that is what Hamas wants or the Jihadis?
(7)
2007-10-15 17:05:25
Rob:
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Tony blair mentioning ian paisley is relevant in this regard.
the reason why it is relevant is because after nearly 700 years of occupation on their own doorstep britain had to leave the majority of ireland to the irish. those settlers who did not wish to leave or those irish who considered themselves british only were put into one corner of ireland and told to live there. paisly knew one day the irish catholics would become the majority so it was wise to cool down and share power. that is relevant to palestine,the zionists will realise whether the easy way or the hard way that palestinians shall one day become masters of their own destiny. it will be for them to chose to live in peace by recognising their crimes now and settling for a one state, one man one vote or do it the hard way. zionists can boast all day long but the clock is ticking for the new dawn of palestinian freedom and liberation.
(8)
2007-10-15 17:22:49
Abdul Hakim:
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There will only ever be peace in middle East when the illegasl state of Israel no longer exists.
This is a view of many including the much respected Rabbi Aharon Cohen. We muslims must start conferences in our towns and cities inviting Rabbi Cohen to communicate his message to the masses in order to help bring peace.
(9)
2007-10-15 17:47:21
Syed:
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There will only ever be peace in middle East when the illegasl state of Israel no longer exists. — Abdul HakimLet's be pragmatic; if Israel was abolished, where would her current citizens go? You have to remember that there are now 3rd, 4th and 5th generation Israelis living in Israel. To those that were born and raised there, that is their home; it's the only home they've known. Thus, to force them to leave would be equally as unjust as when Palestinians were forced to evacuate their villages. In my opinion, a two-state solution is the only way forward, and in time, possibly a unified single state, but lets walk before we run ;)
(10)
2007-10-15 19:43:40
JWD:
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The Editor of The Independent is Jewish and besides how on earth is the Independent anti-Semitic? Oh! I see because it doesn't support Israel's murderous human-rights abuses against the Palestinians therefore it is anti-Semitic, because of course, all Jews support Israel and Israel speaks for all Jews. Hmmm maybe it is "JWD" who is the anti-Semite? — TazSo, did the editor of The Independent write the article? Independent Jewish Voice is full of Jews who like to apologise for their existence and use the "hey guys, we are really nice people" by criticising Israel. Nothing wrong with that but it proves that Jews can have the capacity for self-hate and self-pity. THe Independent, presumably, supports the murderous human rights abuses by Palestinians against Palestinians, as recently stated by Palestinian Human Rights group concerning the carnage of Hamas vs Fatah in Gaza.
(11)
2007-10-15 20:21:37
JWD:
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JWD and Paul M, why don't you go an see how the isreal is oppressing the palestinian muslims. What do you expect when some forign power supported by the west forcefully take over your land, your homes and leave your community in destituion. Sadly the moment you criticise isrealy actions against the palestinian people you are labelled anti-semetic. The Jews or is it the zionist don;t even allow the freedom of speach. Well let me tell isreal will never have peace until they stop OPPRESSING the palestinians, they are resisting the isreali occupation of their land and good on them. You guys have a go at MPAC well theres enough pro isreali media out there already, its occasionally nice to see that the palestinians plight is been highlighted and the world leaders are finding out for themselves how oppresed they are under isreali occupation. — SalimWhy are the Palestinians 'resisting occupation' and creating death and carnage for themselves when they can have a State by peace talks? You'd have to be pretty stupid to kill when you don't have to. What "Foreign Power"? Jews have been in Palestine since the Old Testament days in The Land Of Israel several thousand years before Islam was founded. Do you agree?
(12)
2007-10-15 20:24:32
JWD:
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Tony blair mentioning ian paisley is relevant in this regard. — Robthe reason why it is relevant is because after nearly 700 years of occupation on their own doorstep britain had to leave the majority of ireland to the irish. those settlers who did not wish to leave or those irish who considered themselves british only were put into one corner of ireland and told to live there. paisly knew one day the irish catholics would become the majority so it was wise to cool down and share power. that is relevant to palestine,the zionists will realise whether the easy way or the hard way that palestinians shall one day become masters of their own destiny. it will be for them to chose to live in peace by recognising their crimes now and settling for a one state, one man one vote or do it the hard way. zionists can boast all day long but the clock is ticking for the new dawn of palestinian freedom and liberation. "Palestinians will have their freedom". No brainer. Of course they will have a State. Everyone wants them to have a State. Israel wants it. USA wants it. The Quartet wants it. One day it will happen when Palestinians renounce terrorism and incitement. Which are the first actions recorded in The Roadmap. Why do people perpetuate some myth that Palestinians have to free themselves from Occupation when everyone knows it will ONLY come about by a negotiated settlement and not military means. Palestinians can't defeat Israel so they had better get used to living alongside.
(13)
2007-10-15 20:27:53
RSD:
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The Rev Paisley did not change his ideas in isolation. His apparent about turn was prefaced by massive changes in the republic of Ireland. First of all the Catholic Church was chased out of politics after decades of struggle to free politics from religion. Secondly the RoI revisited its own history and began owning up to its own crimes. Finally the IRA's funds were progressively choked off by effective UK lobbying in the USA.
If there is a lesson for the Israelis in the experience of Ireland, it is to hold your ground, refuse to negotiate on key issues, demand that the other side puts away its weapons and finally wait for the opposition to mature politically. Like the Irish still, the Palestinians are in denial about their own past and their culpability. As with the Irish the myth the Palestinians have created imprisons them and denies them the opportunity for a reasonable future. For those who have heard of the Irish Famines of the early to mid 19th C should perhaps consider that the "English" troops that drove the Irish peasants from the land were in fact Irishmen to a man, and Irish landowners who benefitted from the expulsions. The myth arose out of ignorance, confusion and guile, and the fact that most people do not know that "English" in the Irish context refered to people that spoke English rather than Gaelic. You may have noticed that few Irish people are actually functionally literate in Gaelic, and most cannot hold a simple conversation in it. But then again the myth is some much prettier than the truth. Echoes of Palestine?
(14)
2007-10-15 20:33:42
Taz:
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I'm sure Tony Blair will be put right by his friend Lord Levy who kept him informed of the suffering of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis I'm sure.
(15)
2007-10-15 22:04:47
Taz:
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....Independent Jewish Voice is full of Jews who like to apologise for their existence and use the "hey guys, we are really nice people" by criticising Israel. Nothing wrong with that but it proves that Jews can have the capacity for self-hate and self-pity. THe Independent, presumably, supports the murderous human rights abuses by Palestinians against Palestinians, as recently stated by Palestinian Human Rights group concerning the carnage of Hamas vs Fatah in Gaza. Oh dear it really doesn't take long for Zionists such as JWD to slip into anti-Semitism (when he isn't being Islamophobic of course). Why do you hate your co-religonists so much JWD? Are you so anti-Semitic? Just because a Jewish person chooses to criticise some of Israel's policies it doesn't make them "self-hating" since "Israel" and "Jewishness" are two different things but the truth is very inconvenient for the Zionists like JWD.
(16)
2007-10-15 22:12:12
JWD:
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....Independent Jewish Voice is full of Jews who like to apologise for their existence and use the "hey guys, we are really nice people" by criticising Israel. Nothing wrong with that but it proves that Jews can have the capacity for self-hate and self-pity. THe Independent, presumably, supports the murderous human rights abuses by Palestinians against Palestinians, as recently stated by Palestinian Human Rights group concerning the carnage of Hamas vs Fatah in Gaza. Oh dear it really doesn't take long for Zionists such as JWD to slip into anti-Semitism (when he isn't being Islamophobic of course). Why do you hate your co-religonists so much JWD? Are you so anti-Semitic? Just because a Jewish person chooses to criticise some of Israel's policies it doesn't make them "self-hating" since "Israel" and "Jewishness" are two different things but the truth is very inconvenient for the Zionists like JWD. Its true that criticising Israel does not define you as a 'self-hating' Jew. Instead its the way in which you go about it and the words you use. For example, Finklestein is a Holocaust minimiser. Jews and Israelis are some of the biggest critics of Israel. Look at Haaretz, its like the Guardian of Israel. You are correct that we should be discussing Israel and NOT Jews. Hence, I want to know why Israel's 1.2 million Arabs are treating the Palestinians so badly and occupying them. Have they no heart for their brothers? As Israeli citizens in a democracy where they voted then they share the same responsibilities as all Israel. They fight for Israel in the IDF, for example. Surely THEY are also killing Palestinians. Unless, of course, you ONLY mean Jews. In that case you would be Antisemitic by identifying ONLY the Jews of Israel for the crimes you try to stick on Israel.
(17)
2007-10-16 07:32:16
Paul M:
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If Israelis are to be distinguished according to their ethnicity, it is worth noting that the largely Arab border guard has a much tougher reputation when it comes to dealing with the Palestinians than either the police or the army. But then when you see how neighbouring Arab countries deal and have dealt with the Palestinians (e.g. the recent clearing out of a camp in Lebanon, black September in Jordan) a pattern begins to emerge.
Of course if it were really the plight of the Palestinians which concerned the Tazes and Salims of this world, rather than the existence of a single, tiny Jewish state in a sea of large Muslim states, they would not be silent and indifferent when Palestinians suffer at the hands of other Muslims (and, often, other Palestinians). I observed on the post to another article that MPAC's coverage of Palestinian casualties at the hands of Israel at least 16,000 times as intense as its coverage on Muslim-on-Muslim casualties in conflict. I based this on a report suggesting that 0.3% of Muslim deaths in conflict in the last 50 years have been at the hands of Israel, 90% at the hands of other Muslims. So again, is MPAC really interested in the plight of Muslims or just in bashing Israel?
(18)
2007-10-16 09:43:36
Rob:
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The land of canaan was invaded and occupied by the tribes of israel,even at that time the people who call themselves jews stole and murdered to take the lands of the people of canaan.
today they steal and murder the people of palestine nothing changes,history will repeat itself and the people of palestine shall be free. there is a old saying give a inch and they will take a feet,the palestinians have have been giving in for tool long,a theif shall never give back what he has stolen unless forced to do so.
(19)
2007-10-16 10:12:20
Taz:
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JWD playing dumb again. Stop whining about anti-Semitism. This is about Zionists not Arabs or Jews.
(20)
2007-10-16 10:51:22
Rob:
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The balkans were taken by force of arms and they were taken back by force arms.
so paulm you will agree that palestine shall be taken back by force as talking has not done much in the last 60 years. hundreds of thousands of palestinians ethnically cleansed did not sell the lands they lived on or thier homes,at least have some honesty in your comments. the balkans are populated by natives of the area,tell us which one country in the balkans that is 80 per cent turkish even after 500 years of rule,maybe when the reverse is done to the occupiers you shall agree with me that what will happen to them will be like bread and milk. i have read history it is people like you who need to read history. muslim ruled india for a thousand years today 80 per cent of indians are hindu,mulsims ruled the balkans for 500 years today 80 pr cent of balkans is christian. palestine 80 or 90 years ago was 90 per cent non jewish today it is 65 per cent jewish,the figures speak for themselves. palestinians have more rights to palestine than anyone else,they have lived in palestine for the last 2000 years,by any method they have a more valid claim than anyone else to be called natives of the land. there can only be justice and peace when a criminal admits his crime and then gives back what he has stolen.
(21)
2007-10-16 11:59:27
Paul M:
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There are many parts of the Balkans, many many times larger than Israel, from which non-Muslims were cleansed (e.g most of central Albania, most of eastern Thrace), non-Muslims were also cleansed from Anatolia. Non-Muslims have been cleansed from most of Pakistan. The number of Jews in every Arab country is today less than 1% of what it was in 1948. While a large Muslim community remained in Israel after 1948, every single Jew was cleansed from areas 'liberated' by the Muslims, including ancient Jewish parts of Hebron and Jersulem, where Jews had been living for centuries before Islam was born.
By contrast there have never been more Palestinians in Palestine. So who are the real ethnic cleansers? However, laying history aside, you Rob clearly believe not in a two state solution but in a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea. What would you do those Jews who survived? Would you allow them to live as dhimmis or would you expel them? What if nowhere else would take them - have you any handy methods of genocide in mind? And if a single, tiny Jewish state is Nazi and racist, what justice is there for the continued existence of Pakistan, insisted on by the Muslims of the subcontinent, its creation causing murder and mayhem on a scale unimaginable in Israel / Palestine, and with no excuse, as in the case of Israel, of the need for a refuge for a persecuted minority?
(22)
2007-10-16 14:00:03
Rob:
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paulm like a good trained zionist you shift from one point to another.
first of all answer the points put by me,why after 1000 years of muslim rule india is 80 per cent hindu and why after 500 years of muslim rule the balkans are 80 per cent christian. on the opposite hand 80 or so years ago palestine was 90 per cent non jewish today it is 65 per cent jewish,why the question is simple. when you mention pakistan you forget one thing the people of pakistan were natives of the lands and they were muslims,they did not travel from thousands of miles away and say this is my country. i beleive in democracy for all and the best solution is one man one vote for all the people of palestine be they jews-muslims or christians. why do you find that hard to accept do you not beleive in democcary equality and the rule of law.
(23)
2007-10-16 16:12:52
you muppet:
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why is that these world leaders are always shocked after they leave office?
incredible. I think he deserve a smack in the mouth.
(24)
2007-10-16 16:14:44
Paul M:
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The problem you hit, Rob, in justifying Pakistan, is your definition of 'native'.
Why is it fine and dandy to purge millions of Hindus and Sikhs from Lahore and import Muslims from what is now Andhra Pradesh? Whereas many of the Jews who fled to Israel came from 'Dar al Islam', places which had until recently been in the same state as Palestine (namely the Ottoman Empire) and which were a lot closer to Jerusalem (Baghadad, Cairo) than Madras or Banaglore are to Islamabad. You use the word 'native' in a very peculiar (racist?) way to fit your scheme of things, so a Jew from Yemen or Damascus is not a 'native' to the Middle East, but a Muslim from Calicut is a 'native' of the Punjab or NWFP. Nonsense. The most important differences between the foundation of Israel and Pakistan are threefold (i) there was no need for Pakistan - the Muslims were not being persecuted in India, and had they been, they would have had many other Muslim countries to flee to, it was not a life line (ii)a peaceful partition was on offer from the UN and unilaterally turned down by the Arabs which could have avoided any refugees and (iii) Pakistan was on an immensely larger scale, resulting in at least 100 times more Muslim deaths than the creation of Israel. Fortunately India absorbed her refugees, did not leave the moldering in refugee camps and moved on. When will the Arab world do the same? Or will it still be whining on and stuck in the middle ages in another sixty years, while Israel's economic and scientific base continues to forge ahead? The use of the anti Zionist cause as a campaign to rally otherwise disparate and warring Muslims is so reminiscent of the use of anti Semitism to unite the Germans. The end result was damaging for the Jews but (take it from someone who spends half his time in Germany) far more damaging for their persecutors. The Muslims really do not need to go down this road. If only the Muslims could free themselves of this obsession over a tiny piece of land and realise how much they have to offer, with their vast lands and populations, their oil wealth and the great tradition and culture of Islam, how much better a place the world would be.
(25)
2007-10-16 17:02:11
Rob:
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Paulm i am still waiting for answers to the above points to you and until you answer them.
i shall not be expounding on any other matter,its about time you zionists answered some questions instead of shifting from point to another like the shifty characters that you are.
(26)
2007-10-16 18:11:15
shan:
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PAULM your hatred of muslims blinds you to the fact that,when pakistan was created it was created on land that was settled by the natives of those areas,the governments of pakistan and india did not force millions to leave their areas but people chose to do that.
your hatred of muslims can be judged from your statement sikhs and hindus were purged and then muslims imported what a pathetic attempt to make a comparison. there are 165 million pakistanis and the number of mohajirs is 6 million people,so 6 million out of 165 million pakistanis does not bode well for your argument. since around 80 per cent of israelis are ahskenazi jews,even your assertion of jews migrating from the arab world does not hold water,as they would never become the majority in palestine. you are trying to justify the unjustifiable,stelaing and killing is wrong period.
(27)
2007-10-16 18:28:59
RSD:
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Despite all the argument, claims and counterclaims, the fact is that in late 1947 the AHC defined a Palestinian as any non-Jew who had resided in the Mandate territory of Palestine for more than two years. Thus anyone who had arrived from the end of WW2 and was not Jewish was a Palestinian. This is a very strange definition by international norms and does not suggest a nation composed of people who had resided in the territory for a long period of time or having a close association with the region.
This definition stripped Jews who had Ottoman citizenship of their basic rights and made no attempt whatsoever to distinguish between Zionist and non-Zionist which was very clear at the time. As for the Zionists being accused of being thieves, well as it was the stated war aims of the AHC to strip Jews of their property it seems that it is a case of the kettle calling the pot black. BTW Ashkenazis are not 80% of the Israeli or even Jewish population. Some Ashkenazim are natives to the region. Ashkenazi refers to liturgy and not ethnicity or place of birth. The oldest Jewish communities in UK are Sephardi not Ashkenazi. The ethnic cleansing of Jews from the areas occupied by the Palestinians at the end of the 1948/9 war included Samaritans, who are not Jews, but may be regarded as Hebrews and were never Zionists. May I suggest to everyone that both sides sinned against the other in largely equal measure.
(28)
2007-10-16 20:19:45
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While his aides munched tuna bagels thoughtfully provided by the Israeli military, a shirt-sleeved Tony Blair peered intently at a map showing the two main cargo crossing-points that will function between the West Bank and Israel once the 450-mile separation barrier between them is complete.










