Im not sure how your going to convince Muslims to vote and use the ballot when the non-muslim community is unconvinced. Clearly only 60% turn out for a general election. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/constituencies/default.stm

Finally, the fact that a million people marching in protest against the War in Iraq didn't do stop the Government is proof that democracy doesn't exist.

Sounds clever, complaining that young people are not allowed elections - in mosques!? - and turning the discussion into one of what is the way forward. The way forward to what, Asghar?

MPACUK are jst leading people up the garden path, voting will not change foreign policy, nation interest will always come first.

Also why would you want to get involved in a system that is inherintly corrupt, where politicians act in accordance to the wishes of lobby groups rather the the wishes of the people who elected them.

One of the problems of living in a democracy for a minority group is that the majority dominate through the ballot box. And the problem for the self-appointed leaders of these minority groups is that secret ballots allow everyone to express their views without intimidation or coercion.
This issue affects everyone in a democracy to a greater or lesser extent.
In addition MP's are elected to do what they consider fit and right on behalf of the electorate, they do not act as directed by the electorate.
A way to end this and ensure that government does what the majority of people want on every issue would be to adopt a system like Switzerland where there are frequent referenda. On the surface it sounds good, but it results in some pretty intolerant and racist policies. Voters in Switzerland react to every issue rather than considering the interests of society as a whole and protecting minority interests. Switzerland doesn't have an issue with Muslim rights in relation to religious observance etc simply because, despite there being many Muslim residents there, almost none have the vote because they are denied the opportunity to become Swiss nationals.
Democracy is not perfect, but it is a lot better than anything else.

Aftab

Marching isn't Democracy. But, voting and participating in the major political parties is.

Muslim causes deserve better than YOUR defeatist attitudes or the useless marching methods of the extreme left.

You only have to look at the Zionist lobby to see how effective smart political participation is.

The only people who benefit from your attitude are the oppressors.

Bukhari appears to be deluded with Voting and the so called Democratic system which has shoen to be a complete and utter failure. Attacking Muslim Leaders may get you brownie points with the system but it is this system which would like to see you abandon Islam and become a democratic secularist, exactly what Bukhari seems to be encouraging. When is he and MPac going to learn that they will never accept you unless to leave Islam. This is what Allah swt tells us.
The solution is to cling on to Islamic values and show what Islam really is

AS you have probally noticed by know the terrorist attack that occured yesterday in glasgow has not been reported back to back on sky news or bb news and neither have mpac dedicated a article on the issue.

terrorists using vehicle borne petrol bombs attacked a local store were they knew asians would be,they attempted mass murder but fortunatly there were no casualties.

the fact that the actions of these terrorists have not been splashed accross the media shows that it is ok to kill or attempt to kill in mass people who are not white christians,so much so for democracy and human rights.

I used to have a lot of respect for MPAC, I used to support their work, but Asghar is just too arrogant. He said that the typical muslim kids on the street don't know what democracy is, sorry I think a majority of the propulation regardless of race or religion know about democracy.....he is a joker. I have noticed how MPAC is starting to lose a lot of it's supporters........including myself......you are not uniting the ummah you just dividing it more...

"If there is injustice in society, every citizen will go to politics except 2 types, the selfish and the dimmed" - Aristotle

Assalamualaikum,
I have noticed that my previous post has been deleted so I thought that I should write it again as I am sure MPACUK would never stoop to censorship!
I wrote enquiring about what MPACUK's stance was on Hassan Butt as I was shocked with what he said on Newsnight a few days ago as well as in his newspaper articles in the Daily Mail and Guardian. Would you be able to tell me if MPACUK agrees or disagrees with his stance.
By the way, for those who don't know who he is, there is a good post about him on ummahpulse.co.uk
Please don't delete this post.
Wassalam
Sr Saffiyah.

<b>MPACUK Mod: We do not allow links in the comments sections as they are long and effect the website layout.

You are more than welcome to submit the article via the submissions links which is located at the top.</b>

To Kamrul:

Just knowing what democracy is not good enough. It's how do we use it to influence real change, which is what I believe Asghar is alluding to.

I live in a area where the majority of constituents are Muslim and yet the local MP (Labour) voted for the war in Iraq. If Muslims were smart and understood the power of bloc-voting, that MP would never have dared supported the war for fear of losing his position in the next elections.

The same pattern could be repeated right around the country if only ALL Muslims - and not just you and your friends - understood how to vote strategically as a community.

what if some of the Sahabahs (companians of the Prophet pbuh), were to come back into the world today. After surveying the whole situation of the Ummah, would they then declare that the Ummah's solution lies in following 'western democracy'? I think not.

Both Aftab and Ghazi both offer fallacious arguments.

If such a small proportion of the general population bothers to vote, then a block vote of say a million adults must plenty of potential clout.

Voting does influence the content of foreign policy. Exhibit A 'The Israeli Lobby' in the USA.

Also sorry, but Ashgar does come over as 'I am right, you are wrong' in the interview.

Tp Syed

No doubt brother I agree with you. The point that I was making was Asghar just made a judgment that muslims dont know about the democratic process. I assure you, our uncles know more then they let up. take for example the Bangla community, when the election in bangladesh come about they go in a frenzy and all they talk is about politics..........so I assure you brother Asghar is wrong. Look how George Galloway got elected in our borough...

Assalamualaikum MPACUK Mod,
Terribly sorry about posting the link - rather new to this whole blogging business I'm afraid!
Anyway it is rather easy to find the article that I am referring to as it is the latest one up on ummahpulse.co.uk.
Would you be able to answer my query about Hassan Butt. What is MPACUK's stance on his opinions?
As far as submitting the [URL DELETED] article - is that allowed if I am not part of ummahpulse?
Wassalam
Sr Saffiyah.

Are we so naive in the West as to believe that recent jihadi activity is provoked solely by British foreign policy mistakes?

A corrupted liberal society and its corrupt politicians and elections will never have more appeal for a potential jihadist/suicide bomber/martyrdom operator than the Qur'an. Or am I wrong?

Give up Jihad and vote Lib Dem!!
Mmmh. Not sure if that's gonna work.

To Abu Haadiya:

To state we are "following" western democracy indicates that you've misunderstood the situation... We are "using" it to our advantage.

None of the man-made secular western laws prevent me from praying, fasting or worshiping Allah in any shape or form. Nor to they force me to go to the pub, have a girlfriend or commit any other sins.

However, if enough of us vote we CAN change Britain's foriegn policy to be more ethical and prevent the oppression of millions of Muslim brothers and sisters on both a local and international level.

In these circumstances, if the Sahaba *did* return, would they not ask why didn't YOU assist in helping the oppressed?

I'm sorry but Democracy is ot "un-islamic" only a fooled and HT would argue that.

We are part of this country. One cannot "follow" democracy as it is not a message it is a system. All people in the world "use a system" no one follows it - its not a person!

So get your Al Mahajaroun/ HT/ Crazy Saudi Salafi backside back to school.

very funny danny very funny give up jihad and vote for lib dems.

I thought you were having a serious debate.

You see how ludicrous it is to propose that someone with deeply-held religious beliefs/faith would transfer his/her hopes and aspirations to Ming Campbell or the drunken Charles Kennedy. Some other form of weaning is needed, but I fear it would mean the abrogation/re-interpretation of certain verses of the Qur'an, but that is not likely to happen.
yours etc etc.

Danny looks like you do not want people to get involved in Democracy? - why are you so anti-western deep within you?

It seems here Muslims are trying to get involved and all you are doing is being negative and borderline racist? -why?

Whatsamatta Boo-Boo??

You misunderstand,and I fail to see how I'm being borderline racist. I'm only trying to tiptoe around some sensitive issues. The full on debate is about whether religion can truly co-exist in a democracy without having to compromise its beliefs (whatever the religion - take the highly-emotive subject of abortion in the US for example). I'm all in favour of democracy - secular democracy, where religion plays a part in people's private lives and does not become the busines of the state. Europe has had a centuries-long struggle to separate church from state with many revolutions and much blood shed. It would be disastrous to see the two conjoined again.
Democracy is one thing - Theocracy another.
I resent having to be so mindful of another's deeply-held religious beliefs to the point where my own secular ones are comromised and I have to keep my mouth shut. But such are the times we live in.

The article above was about how to encourage dissenters to take part in democratic processes rather than blowing themselves up. That will always be impossible if the beliefs of the individual are incompatible with the principles of democracy.

PS The 'West' is corrupt, and so is liberalism. People will continue to seek other belief systems (Islam and evangelical Christianity, for example) until we get out house in order, re-establish some moral values discarded over the last thirty years and remember our history.
Long live the memory of Oliver Cromwell.

Brother Syed - name an instance where you've mangaed to 'use' western democracy for the advantage of the Ummah? Take American democracy where ALL the candidates who will potentially fight the next election have already sworn blind allegiance to Israel. Likewise, check the MPACUK forum from a few days back, and you will see how both Brown and Cameron have both declared their unswerving loyalty to Israel. In effect, candidates who are likely to ever follow an ethical foreign policy, are weeded out long before they can even become junior ministers, never mind primeministers! PS If the Sahaba did come back, they may ask you why you vote, and hence give legitimacy to and endorse a ruling party which is responsible for more innocent deaths then a thousand Osama's? At least i can say i totally dissaciate myself from all such injustices, and strive so that people may think outside of the box and realise there is an alternative to the current way the world is ruled! The Almighty in Surah Bakarah, Verse 11 & 12, Holy Quran states: 'And when it is said to them "make not mischief on the earth", they say:"We are only peace-makers." Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they percieve not.' I think this describes our current crop of leaders to a tee. I would love to change them if i really thought their was a choice, but as i've said before 'the players may change but the game remains the same'.

I agree with those who say democracy is only a system. You can have a secular democracy, christian democracy, islamic democracy etc. it all depends on the underlying principles.

Britain is mostly a secular democracy but also with elements of an aristocracy and theocracy (in the House of Lords and the Monarch being head of the Church of England).

Machiavelli said that the most stable state is a combination of democracy, aristocracy and principality and I think I'm inclined to agree with him. The USA has no entrenched aristocracy like the UK and yet this has led to their democracy being hijacked by the far-right (Bush-Cheney etc).

Ok Danny, but i cant follow your argument. There is no need to tip toe, be honest and up front.

I do not really follow your current argument that those who represent Democracy are not good enough to be elected so lets not vote. Perhaps that may be the case, but then surely we should join ourselves and make the Government and its policies better?

if mpac used its undeniable energy in more objective, visionary way, it would realise that other communitys or interest groups did not formualte their agendas based upon democratic processes such as election.
They merely may have when suited, only exploited it, whilst relying on their main thrust of an independent prime agenda.

The main thrust of a a muslim agenda should integrate and network various muslim groups into pulling the muslim comminty up by its OWN bootstraps

A while ago I saw Anjum Choudhry in a live TV discussion with Iqbal Sacranie and a Mufti from Pakistan.

As usual Anjum Choudhry was outrageous and annoying. What I fail to understand is that first it were Abu Hamzah and Bakri whom the British Government gave an open license to misguide the youngsters and engage in criminal acts of inciting hatred against other communities. Despite repeated requests by the Muslims of Islington, Hamzah was allowed to carry on misusing the Finsbury Park Mosque. Then this role was given to Izzadin and Anjum Chaoudhry is doing this job. One wonders why does it take the Government so long to take any action? Why Anjum Chaoudhry has been left free to carryon his venom spreading mission?

Brother Abu Haadiya, in the 2003 Brent East by-elections, Sarah Teather (Lib Dems), a pro-Palestinian MP, was elected over the pro-Israeli Labour and Tory candidates.

The seat had previously belonged to Labour, but it was the Muslim vote that swung the majority to Lib Dems from 3rd place.

If this is repeated in every constituency where the majority of residents are Muslim then we'd have enough power to influence foreign policy to be advantageous to the Ummah.

Asghar is clearly losing the plot, these two guys who are usually intelligen look very silly.
Does asghar have anything to say other than 'its the mosques what dunnit'
the terrorists in this case were foreigners and asghar still blames local mosques............sommeone change the record and why is he always coming on? is it cuz zulfi botched up his interview last time?????

bloomsbury - it is the mosques what done it dopey!

They didn't teach Muslims how to tackle foreign policy here so they became radicalized over there. Then they didn't help reform the backward community there so they were able to protect themselves without terrorism.

Now get a brain and come back with a serious comment. So i can demolish that too.

Brother Syed, i accept that there are some decent people in all the three parties, including a few pro-palestinian ones. Unfortunatley they face two choices i) Be true to their conscience and speak/vote against the injustices committed by the government; or ii)Toe the party line on all major issues; which is normally the case for any aspiring politician. The former choice would bring a few years on the backbenches, whilst only the compliant and obedient MPs would rise to any positions of real power where they could have an impact on foreign policy. It is simply a facade that fools joe public into thinking that they've made the choice. Looks to me like the example of a condemded man who is given a choice as to whether he wants to be put into a pit of snakes or scorpions.

Asghar needs to calm down in these TV interviews - Im a huge fan of MPACUK but Asghar was way out of order in the way he firmly placed responsibility with others for educating youngster on democratic values.If its that easy why dont you educate every one. Dont shift responsibilty and dont make the Muslims look silly on National TV.

Salaam

AA

No doubt their is alot of "anger" and "frustration" amongst the Muslim community.

We need to address our anger and frustrations via the Political Platform and exercise intellect.

Equally we need to develop a nationwide platform to facilitate inter-faith dialogues.

We also need a comprehensive platform,which educates the non muslims about Islam.

We need to Educate non muslims about Islam. By only educating the non muslims about Islam, we can address their knowledge gaps. We need to find an effective medium that reaches out to the non muslims.

We are failing because we have failed to plan, we are failing, because their is no central strategy that addresses our issues.

What are our main issues ? who is driving these issues ? what are the potential remedies for these solutions ? How do we attain the solutions in the context of resources.

MB