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| The Big Debate: Attending HMD - Should We or Shouldn't We? |
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| Thursday, 21 December 2006 | |
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In short there are two arguments being put forward. The first is by those that are boycotting the event. The boycott argument falls under two categories; the first argument is championed by the MCB, it takes the form of demanding remembrance of all people around the world who have died under a general “Genocide Day”. They argue that remembering one group of people over and above another is wrong. The second argument being made by groups including MPACUK is that a boycott should be maintained until all people who suffered because of the Holocaust are remembered and that includes the Palestinians.
Muslims knew that the Holocaust had been politicized by Zionists, however because our uneducated often backward first generation leaders did not have the articulation or understanding of how to put our case forward, Muslims had no way to argue their case. Often this resentment poorly argued and little understood by the Muslim public led to dismissal or playing down the event itself which was a stupid trap we fell into and was pounced on by the Israeli lobby as proof of anti-Semitism. It was left to brave Jews like Finklestein to do it for us, until a new generation of real and brave Muslim leaders would come forward to challenge this propaganda. Muslims were rightly resentful over the way the Holocaust has been used; now to have a memorial day that would no doubt have no mention of the Palestinians was a slap in the face too far. Then to know deep down that it would become another weapon in a propaganda war galvanized Muslim groups into action.
The second type is where Salma Yakoob comes in, sincere but in our opinion strategically flawed. She believes that one can attend the HMD and bring up the Palestinian issue from within. Now anyone who looks at who actually manages the event will see that it reads like the whose who of Zionist Muslim haters including unbelievably Louis Elman MP. She may be right, but to think the HMD is going to be allowed to become pro Palestinian without a nationwide program of Muslims actively trying to do this to the HMD is impossible and naïve. Even then to think the most powerful lobby in the world will risk its best propaganda weapon by allowing this seems far fetched. However it is an argument and maybe it is correct. She does have a strategic vision, but in our opinion it is not backed up with the necessary infrastructure to achieve her aims. All she has then done is to allow those who do oppose it to be targeted and isolated – finally to buckle under pressure. Israel -1 Palestine – Nil. However we could be wrong, and Salma and other key people who we have spoken to could be right; have MPACUK and the MCB got it wrong. At MPACUK we answer to you, so you tell us what we should do. We would like your opinion on this matter. It's time the public had their say.           Readers have left 16 comments.
Thoughtful:
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Is anyone who goes to HMD allowed to think and talk about the suffering of any other race and religion except the jewish people. If i thought the answer was yes then I would go and talk about how each and every atrocity and act of suffering is a holocaust for each and every individual and for their loved ones.
If I thought the answer was no then I would want to know why an individual jewish person can suffer and be remembered more than anybody else who has suffered. Jewish people have moved on since the holocaust and so has the world but the atrocites remain only the victims are different.
(1)
2006-12-24 19:03:30
Kathy:
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Holocaust day is something that should be there for people to remember, if they choose do so and not to be forced upon people, at times under threat. It is only one of the many atrocities that have occurred in this world's recent history and I believe that all people who have suffered at the hands of dictators and ruthless leaders both past and present, deserve the same status.
When I look at the way that the Israelis are treating the Palestinians in the 21st century, I find it hard to have any sympathy for what happened to their forefathers in the 1930's and 40's at the hands of Hitler and his henchmen. This saddens me as I am basically a humanitarian but I also see others being made to suffer at the hands of those who want us to remember their own suffering. It is wrong.
(2)
2006-12-24 19:05:45
T- RUTH:
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Don`t go , no one wants a sick faith like yours there , anyway . Why don`t you all fly off to the Iranian Holocaust Deniers Convention . Show this country your true colours . Now thats what i call a Real muslim show . Only in muslim lands could such obsurdaties take place with government sanction and be exaulted .Your god must be proud ??
(3)
2006-12-24 23:40:28
Sam:
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Anyone who visists the Holocaust Memorial Trust will see that the event recognises all faith, races and people of difference as part of the event.
There have been various articles stating "Muslims are the New Jews" and Dr Bari's jibe at "Nazi Britain" and yet Muslims cannot bring themselves to acknowledge a tragedy simply because it affected Six Million Jews. What you do by your insensitivity is to make sure that no-one has sympathy for YOUR cause. I have read MCB state it is "racially and religiously exclusive". That statement itself conveys racism and a desire to be religiously exclusive by rejecting empathy towards non-Muslims. If you keep trying to grasp onto respectability and acceptance in UK/European culture then you have to be part of that culture by respecting its memorials and institutions. Otherwise you only emphasise how distant you are from society. From my own political stance on Islamism I am happy for you to persist with your stance because I know its a highly illustrative behaviour that is being exhibited. Statements on HMD are damaging for the Muslim image in the UK. Its up to you. But you are snookered. You can't suddenly decide to attend and un-scramble the egg.
(4)
2006-12-25 12:13:17
Ali.c:
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"Anyone who visists the Holocaust Memorial Trust will see that the event recognises all faith, races and people of difference as part of the event."
does it recognise the slaughter of the Palestinians? Of course not. I am against the setting up of such memorials to ensure that the pliable British public continues to support Isreal. That is the bottom line. It is to ensure a feeling of guilt for the slaughter of a minority that had integrated and participated in european society. It is a reminder of the crime of europeans yet instead of humbling our society it ensures that this slaughter is used as an excuse to drum up support for Isreal. It is a political event disguised as a sympathetic ceremony. Until this event doesnt openly recognise the slaughter being carried out right now by those that suddenly feel guilty, its tears mean nothing. Finally to respond to the person above who has a problem with Muslims, well guess what, we are part of this society and have the right not to attend. We have the right to defend minorites and our people through peaceful political protest and a boycott is a good way forward. What colour is the blood of a palestinian child? green or red? Most zionists think its green..I believe its red.
(5)
2006-12-25 16:45:45
Thoughful:
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TR -You are a good example of everything that is wrong in our country. You think it is your right to decide exclusively that some races and religions have suffered whilst others of another race and religion have not. That is the real absurdity and sickness.
Sam - You want to accuse muslims of doing what the HMD does every year. Excluding from your history the suffering of the muslims and others in the 21st century. Saving the jews and damning the muslims in palestine is nothing to be proud of. If celebrating HMD eases your consceience about your racism which you practise in the 21st centrury then go ahead although what the significance of HMD is, is anybodies guess as the jewish people do not need saving anymore.
(6)
2006-12-25 17:56:11
Colin:
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DECEMBER 26 2006
Kathy of MPAC says, “When I look at the way that the Israelis are treating the Palestinians in the 21st century, I find it hard to have any sympathy for what happened to their forefathers in the 1930's and 40's at the hands of Hitler and his henchmen.” How can I get through to people like you? Imagine this. The Muslim population of Europe now is something like the size of the Jewish population then was in the thirties. A Zionazi Muslim-hating regime takes over say the UK or France tomorrow. In a year or two, plan A comes into operation. The regime publishes new laws re-defining all Muslims as non-citizens and enacts that they must wear yellow crescent armbands outside the house. A thousand and one ordinary things, such as attending school, feeding the ducks in the park or dating non-Muslims, become forbidden on pain of an extended visit to a concentration camp or worse. Apostasy won’t help you. Once a Muslim, always a Muslim! A couple of years on, the regime goes on a military rampage, conquering almost all the rest of Europe. When that’s done, plan B comes into operation. All Muslims are registered and sent by cattle truck to convenient (for the regime) nominated ghettoes in Eastern Europe. From there, they are sent batch by batch to specially built centres where they are gassed and burnt. The regime is well into its fifth million gassing and burning when their operations are interrupted by an unforeseen downturn in their military activities and because of this, a tiny handful of Muslims is left ungassed. Kathy – that nightmare is what happened not to Muslims but to the Jews of Europe – it’s called the Holocaust. If you can find anything remotely like it happening in any part of the world, Muslim or otherwise, either put up or shut up.
(7)
2006-12-25 23:01:56
Kathy:
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ColinI do not deny that the holocaust happened to the Jews in Europe but what I am saying is that because of their own history I would expect the Jewish people to empathise with other people instead of inflicting suffering upon them. I also would have thought that people were somewhat more civilised in this day and age than the Germans were in the 30's and 40's but as far as I can see the Israelis treat the Palestinians as some sub human or at least lower class than themselves. They cause the deaths of innocent people and are currently attempting to starve them into submission.
Death is death, no matter how it occurs Colin and no, I will not either put up or shut up. I will continue to criticise the way in which people of all races, creeds or colours are ill treated and exploited by the powerful Nations of this unfair and unequal world of ours. If I had been around in the 30's and 40's no doubt I would have also criticised Hitler for his treatment of the Jews. In fact having been born just a few years after the war, I was brought up with the stories of the holocaust and I obviously felt sorry for the Jewish people in their suffering but as I say I find it hard these days to feel that same sympathy when we hear daily of what their leaders in Israel are inflicting on the Palestinians. They stole their land and drove many out of their country and still their are some who would force the others to leave, given the power. Does that not sound vaguely familiar? Perhaps if you opened your eyes, you may see the facts as they are today.
(8)
2006-12-26 10:04:53
Sam:
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Ali:c, "does it recognise the slaughter of the Palestinians? Of course not. I am against the setting up of such memorials to ensure that the pliable British public continues to support Isreal. That is the bottom line. It is to ensure a feeling of guilt for the slaughter of a minority that had integrated and participated in european society. It is a reminder of the crime of europeans yet instead of humbling our society it ensures that this slaughter is used as an excuse to drum up support for Isreal."
WHAT SLAUGHTER OF THE PALESTINIANS??? Let's remember. The "Palestinians" are Arabs who supported several wars against Israel. That is unprovoked attacks. Acts of War! Then they suicide bomb innocent Israelis. Did the Jews of Europe do any of this to Germans? Did the Jews of Germany negotiate peace deals with the nazis that they never kept to? (Roadmap) How does this stand even a galaxy away from the mechanised slaughter of over six million people in Europe. You say its a "European Guilt Trip". In that case you don't consider yourself part of the UK since its also part of Europe and linked to its history. You are trying to convey/pretend that perhaps the growing population of the Palestinians is somehow Genocide - which it clearly is not. You say "It is a political event disguised as a sympathetic ceremony. Until this event doesnt openly recognise the slaughter being carried out right now by those that suddenly feel guilty, its tears mean nothing." It DOES it recognises ALL genocides and the racist intolerance that leads to it. In Nazi Germany it was racist intolerance to Jews and the Roma. Get it straight "There is NO Genocide or any act against Palestinians that is anything like The Holocaust". To argue that is to completely destroy the meaning of words to suit A POLITICAL IDEA ATTEMPTING TO LAUNCH ISELF AS SOMETHING ELSE! Quite frankly, please stay away from Holocaust Memorial.
(9)
2006-12-26 11:25:10
Sam:
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Thoughtless: "You want to accuse muslims of doing what the HMD does every year. Excluding from your history the suffering of the muslims and others in the 21st century.
Saving the jews and damning the muslims in palestine is nothing to be proud of. If celebrating HMD eases your consceience about your racism which you practise in the 21st centrury then go ahead although what the significance of HMD is, is anybodies guess as the jewish people do not need saving anymore." Shame you don't get it. Again I wonder if you feel you are part of teh UK and Europe. HMD is a European-wide event that recognises the European Role in The Holocaust and the fact that it happened on European soil and did so with the complicity of other Europeans. It is such a memory that led to Europe rescuing Bosnian Muslims from Milosevic. The lessons learnt from The Holocaust as to religious/racial conflict meant that Europe had to step in and stop it. I claim YOU are the racist and exclsionist by your religiously selecting "Muslims of Palestine" - do you forget the "Christians of Palestine"? Or, like Hamas are you in favour of encouraging them to leave? The argument "Nothing to do with me Guv" is precisesly what caused Ruth Kelly to distance herself from MCB in disgust. An quite right to. Holocaust Remembrance embraces ALL religions and races who were killed in The Holocaust. A visist to HMD Trust website would confirm that. But YOU won't visist because it will demonstrate you are wrong.
(10)
2006-12-26 11:34:46
Mashfiqul A:
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Dear MPAC and Bloggers,
Assalam Alaikum and Shalom to any Jewish viewers! To begin my post, I'd love to begin with this wonderful quote- "All humanity is one undivided and indivisible family, and each one of us is responsible for the misdeeds of all the others. I cannot detach myself from the wickedest soul." Mahatma Gandhi “The most precious gift we can offer others is our presence. When mindfulness embraces those we love, they will bloom like flowers.” Thich Nhat Han I compose this correspondence to respond to your assertions regarding Holocaust Memorial Day. Many will accept the analysis that the Holocaust was not only a terrible event, but those that made such an enormous contribution to European civilisation did not deserve such inhuman treatment under Nazi leadership. We must be reminded that the Haredi Jewish community made one of the greatest contributions to European civilisation, something i will feel very proud of as a human being. Therefore, I truly recognise the enormity and brutality that underpinned this horrific event in our history. It ought to never be repeated. But, it illustrates just how low humans can scoop to in this small world. However, we ought to recognise the enormous cruelty of other distinct groups- who are also human as those that were killed during the Nazi Holocaust, including Tibetan Buddhist (which is nothing to do with Palestine), Australian Aboriginees, Irish potato genocide, Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki), where the United States released its first atomic bomb. I am not interested in only Palestine, there are other groups whom have suffered far greater than Palestinians. As a Muslim and human being, we ought to respect all human life, not only Palestinian and Israeli life or those killed in the Holocaust, all human life is precious. In addition, the world has deliberately forgotten to commemorate Vietnamese victims, Indian victims throughout British colonial period i.e Amritsar massacre in Amritsar, India. Furthermore, we abort to commemorate victims of Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, and most recently in Lebanon. I am a British/Muslim, unlike everyone else taking sides, i want to commemorate all human victims of genocide, irrespective of their ethnic or religious affiliation. The main purpose for an inclusive Holocaust Memorial Day or "Genocide Memorial Day" argued by the Muslim Council of Britain, remains in my opinion, a practical and reasonable way of remembering all victims of genocide, war and violence. All human lives - from whatever ethnic, religious or non-religious background - ought to be equally valued. As His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama plainly put it, "we are all basically the same human beings." In my view, a Genocide Memorial Day - which would incorporate remembrance of the Nazi Holocaust - would better fulfil this much-needed function. W/salaam and Jazzakallah Khair,
(11)
2006-12-26 15:51:58
Thoughtful:
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"Holocaust Remembrance embraces ALL religions and races who were killed in The Holocaust" - WHY NOT ANYWHERE ELSE?
Perhaps I am thick - I am sorry that you think I am not a uk national or an eu citizen or do not consider myself part of both. I do. I also consider myself equal to you in your right to express yourself and think that I have all the same rights as you do. I hope this does not make me a bad person just because I might not be white or a christian. There was a time when the white man whipped the black man to break his will. Nowadays it is much more subtle. "Excluding from your history the suffering of the muslims and others in the 21st century" I hope I make myself clear. I do not want to practice your racism and have no desire to be a racist as it it is against my muslim religion and is also againt our laws both uk and eu. Please do not insult or attempt to denigrate others as it shows that you do not have any real argument except one based on race and religion and insult. Numbers seem important to you which is another way of excluding the suffering of others based on race and religion from your narrow view of the world. People suffer on an indivdual level.So the individual person suffering does not mean they will feel the suffering more if millions of others are also suffering. We each and everyone of us feel pain but cannot physically feel the pain of others.
(12)
2006-12-26 16:15:00
azaad:
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T-RUTH et al
The irony is that it is the Zionists (in Israel) who are behaving like Nazis now -- some have called them ZIONAZIS. True, there are no gas chambers, and nowhere near as six million Palestinians have been exterminated. But, hand on heart, how many Israeli Jews will deny that that thought HAS crossed their minds? It is those cruel people in Israel who truly need a Holocaust memorial: to remind them of the terrible price paid by their ancestors. Imagine, if a holcocaust vitim, by some miracle came alive, and went to Israel: what would he think? Would he be pleased? Or would he say: NOT IN MY NAME! I think that Muslims SHOULD observe HMD, because it was a crime against HUMANITY. However I believe that it should be re-named JHMD, because, let's be honest we are only talking about the Jewish victims (who formed by far the largest number, by millions). Everybody should observe it, for it is a reminder from history. We should also never forget to whisper 'holocaust', whenever we hear the expressions 'Judaeo-Christian' or 'Judaeo-Christian Civilisation'; for it WAS on a bed of Christianity that the worst EVER atrocity was committed. (T-RUTH: please remember that the holocaust could NEVER have happened in a Muslims land). It is a bit rich for Christians to gloss over 2,000 years of pogroms, and get all pally pally. The Christian world should have been made to pay for its crimes against the Jewish peoples. Give them Arizona, or Florida. For too long the 'Christian' world under a cloak of 'God is Love', 'turn the other cheek', has gone around the world raping, looting, murdering. Less than hundred years ago it killed more than 50 million of its own in pointless 'world' wars. It is only the decline of Christianity that has ushered in an era of democracy. What they preach isn't the message of Jesus: it is monk-invented theo'logy'! When will the real Jesus' message come out? Muslims are quite wrong to confuse the Palestinian issue with that of the holocaust. No doubt: DO observe HMD! And I say that as a Muslim.
(13)
2006-12-26 23:27:01
T-RUTH:
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azaad read your interesting correspondence on the cruel zionazis of Israel ??? But what does that say of your peace loving muslim brothers in Iraq slaughtering each other 100 fold more than the jews in Israel , also maybe soon in Lebanon .The civilised Euro judeo-christians have admitted to our eternal shame that such a damnable crime should have been committed in our name . As for your assertion of no Holocaust happening in muslim lands 1 look no further than Darfur 2 Iran threatening as the arabs did in `67 to drive the jews into the sea .And to add oil to troubled waters of the Palestinian issue , the teaching and bring up of an entire generation of young muslim children on hate , lets see where that takes your peacefull Islamic faith .
(14)
2006-12-28 00:34:11
azaad:
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T-RUTH
Actually, there is NO such thing as Judaeo-Christians. More precisely you should call it Christo-Pagan 'civilisation'. Most Christians are anti-semitic; and most Orthodox Jews will not even TOUCH the New Testament, let alone read it! And as for being civilised: give me a break! The so-called Christian civilisation is still living off its booty of the last 300 years: just look at all the Europeans occupying land in in the Americas, in Australia/New Zealand etc. That was done not by 'love thy neighbour' or 'love thine enemy as thyself': it was done by sheer bloodshed, followed by sustained looting. Darfur, Iran etc etc has not a patch on the millions upon millions of indiginous peoples annihilated by the 'civilised christians' (not Jews: they didn't do it -- you were still killing them in those days. Remember?) On top of that the so-called 'Christians' slaughtered six million Jews. I think that calls for more than mere admission of 'shame' even if eternal. Don't you think so? You have to do more that just admit shame: you must make amends and give a part of Europe/America entirely over to the Jews. Only then can you talk of 'Judaeo'. Give Sussex to the Jews, and see how long the 'Judaeo' in 'Judaeo-Christian civilisation' lasts. O.K.? If you are indeed a 'Christian', then please start looking for the Gospel According to JESUS, and stop following some monk-invented cult, worshipping a torture-symbol and strangely calling it a 'symbol of resurrection'(If they had the electric chair 2000 years ago, would you be going around wearing gold electric chairs around your neck?). Please read carefully LUKE 9: there already was a Gospel BEFORE the so-called crucifixion/resurrection. Read it again: this time very carefully. THAT was the Gospel according to JESUS. Without crucifixion/resurrection Christianity, as it is professed today simply wouldn't exist.
(15)
2006-12-28 23:05:53
A British Subject:
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Azaad writes he believes that the Christians should have given and settled the Jews in Arizona or Florida . Does that mean he also believes that HE and all muslims should be settled in only muslim lands and not here ?
(16)
2006-12-29 03:05:24
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A massive debate is raging within the Muslim community right now about the Holocaust. Heavy weights on both sides are fighting this over.
Now to be honest the real reason why Muslim groups are boycotting it is simple, despite the arguments being different. The sympathy for the Jews after the Holocaust was used by Zionists to create the tragedy of Palestine. They used that very sympathy to steal the Palestinians homeland and then go on to continue to use its sympathy to cover for the vile crimes of Israel. (This is well documented in a brilliant book by a courageous pro Palestinian Jew, Norman Finklestein, and should be read by all Muslims.)
The other side is championed by two types of people, but their arguments are the same. On the extreme side and representing the majority of those who champion attending the event are simply nothing more than "Uncle Toms" who fear being demonized by the Media and sidelined by Governments which have massive pro Israeli pressure on them thanks to Muslims not being involved in the political process. They get kick backs and a big green badge saying moderate slapped on their foreheads, the Media lay off them and they can swan around in swanky dinner parties. It’s a personal win-win for them. Palestine is never a real factor; only lip service is ever paid to them. They have no real pedigree in sacrifice for the cause. (We can tell you that Ajmal Masroor lobbied within the MCB to attend the event and falls squarely into this category.)
