Very well written MPAC. It is truly time that those men of the Mosque committees who think they are so right, opened their Qurans and read what the Holy Prophet said about women and their place in society. Sadly most of the Mosque committee men who refuse women their rights in the Mosque, are from Pakistan and Bangladesh. Many of these people mix up their religion with their culture and sadly in many ways the cultural beliefs are coming from the Hindu influence. I know that my saying this will upset some people but if you look at how the Arabs differ from those coming from the sub-continent, especially regarding womens rights, it is clear to see.

These are the people who give fuel to the local white community who already believe that women in Islam are second class citizens. For God's Sake, set aside your foolish false pride and habits and allow your women their rights. It is you people who create the problems for all Muslims in this country with your narrow mindedness. Let us see the women rise up and take their place in society for it is they who will educate the next generation.

Kathy:

i agree lets get our women on page 3, maybe fhm, i see that they are lacking that dignity and that self respect of not being on the top shelf of our favorite stores.

yes lets demand western civilised equality.

It will take another generation before men can deal with capable woman working with them as an equal! That goes for most religions and races - but Muslims may just require 2 generations - since the follow a crippling "understanding" of Islam.

Kathy:

i agree lets get our women on page 3, maybe on fhm front cover, i see that they are lacking that dignity and that self respect of not being on the 'top shelf' of our favorite magazine stores.

yes lets demand western civilised equality.

wendymann: where do you get the idea that my comment suggested putting your women on page three? You are obviously one of those sad ignorant men who chooses not to allow women into the Mosque. It is men like you who get your community criticised for their treatment of women. Open your eyes and read your Quran, then make a comment.

Asians in blackburn are not a true reflection of the muslims in uk,many massajid in london have a womens section and have had so for many years,my advice is its made clear to all that this is an asian thing not a muslim thing and should be shown as that,just cause you guys are jahill in this matter dont mean the rest of us are and this should be made clear to muslims and non-muslim's who read youre article.

Fantastic article.

I would just like to add, it is through WOMEN that men will gain access to Paradise;

A man once consulted the Prophet Muhammad about taking part in a military campaign. The Prophet asked the man if his mother was still living. When told that she was alive, the Prophet said: "(Then) stay with her, for Paradise is at her feet." (Al-Tirmidhi)

On another occasion, the Prophet said: "God has forbidden for you to be undutiful to your mothers." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

Well said kathy and grow up wendymann!!! I'm a 23 yrs old female and I'm a doctor alhamdulillah and I studied in an all girls institution and met some of the smartest women of our time whilst there. Every single one without exception wears hijab some are even niqaabi's, we all fast and most are praying. They are not narrow minded ignorant people like yourself it seems and thank god their parents aren't either. They are good upright Muslims as far as I can tell and they will serve their community as well as educate their children inshalla. In fact it was very recently I was reading in Quran and I'm not quoting but its definitely there that let the womenfolk work, work that is suitable (respectable) for them if they so wish or something to that affect (Allah knows best) Islam encourages EDUCATING women. Not every single thing in the Western culture is bad. You should learn to take the best from each culture according to the basic principles of Islam. Get a grip. Locking your womenfolk away in the kitchen might be good for your sorry ego but is doing nothing for Islam nor the image of it. To educate a woman and to encourage her to pursue her talents does not mean going on pg 3 or FHM (astaghfirullah) ..what are you implying??!! That all Muslim women who if given a little freedom are cheap and will end up in bikinis and posing for trashy magazines? Its time you seriously took a long hard look at yourself, the way you treat women and Islam and give women their rights.

The prophet probably meant being dutiful to the motherland not your mother. Although your mother cannot be ignored, you musn't tend to your mother at the expense of the motherland. Common sense must prevail at some stage.

Maybe that's the problem with Muslims - we take the Quran and Hadith too literally without applying common sense. The Zionists are exploiting this like there was no tomorrow.

The Pres.

Kathy:

the fact that im pointing out to you is that women outside of islam are not anymore liberated or treated any better by their men. the doors that are closed are no less, and the church is hardly welcoming to women as equals in terms of becoming clergy.

no it does not justify the way women are treated by some people who happen to be muslims, but is the treatment due to they being muslim or due to their cultural and traditional environment. is it due to lack of education and misperceptions ?

what is the excuse for men in our society who are not muslims?

we dismiss the fact that women are not equal in this society because we take our inequalities as being 'normal'. who in power is questioning it ?

the question is why arent women equal to men in this society despite so many years of 'enlightenment', 'progressive' attitudes and why has western civilised society let down so many women who are non muslims? what has 'reformation' of the christian faith brought women , the right to use contraceptives?

Excellent article. Congratulations, MPACUK on this very well argued piece. However, I just have one issue with your last line:

"The revival will be forced not because we want women’s right in themselves but because we know that without women taking on a leading role in protecting the Ummah the men will fail on their own and be pig-ignorant until it is too late."

While I fully support all that you are doing to remove barriers for British Muslim women's participation in the public sphere, I disagree with the way you've laid out your motivations for this at the end. Instead of taking this utilitarian perspective that empowering women would help empower the Ummah itself, you should be bold enough to take the stance that it is out of a genuine concern for the absolutely inexcusable abuse and subjugation which some of us go through. Instead I find your statement deeply disappointing that "the revival will be forced not because we want women’s right in themselves....". I feel quite let down.

I hope you will review this and give a clear declaration of your uncompromising support to British Muslim women's rights. What's holding you back?
Why should the 'west' alone have this monopoly over women's rights and indeed human rights? That is no reason to stop you from calling for Muslim women's rights. After all, the Holy Prophet's last surmon itself is considered to have laid out the first charter of human rights. So let's be brave and not beat about the bush.

Salaamz,

Very good article. Completely support the idea that women have equal value in society. One of the most prolific narrators of Hadith was a woman - Aisha (R), the mother of the Ummah. So why restrict the women from entering masjids and in decision-making positions?

wendymann:

I will be the first to agree that women in my society do not have equal rights and indeed only got the vote 100years ago because some brave women stood up and some even died, fighting for their rights. However, Muslim women have had equal rights for over 1400 years and yet here in the UK in the 21st century they cannot enter the Mosques in some parts of the country because men have decreed it so. Do these men think they know more than the Holy Prophet? Do they choose to twist His Words? Or is it as I said in my first response, purely a cultural thing.

Equal rights for women is one of the things I admire about Islam because I see in my own society that women are exploited (eg) the page 3 girls you mentioned. As regards the Church, it is mainly the Catholic Church which does not want women as Priests but in the Free Churches women play an equal role as Preachers and certainly women are not refused entry to the Church to Pray.

I could mention so many other things that are wrong in my society but the article I was commenting on was about Muslim women not been given their rights because of the men in some communities. They should be supported and given their place in their society. It is they who will teach and influence the generations to follow. I would be the last person to criticise Islam, infact when I hear friends and others commenting on how women are treated in Islam, I immediately speak up and say that women have equal rights in Islam but as this article shows, quite often the men will not allow them to practise their rights. How will they answer on the Day Of Judgement?

Equity under Islam not equality under secularism.

Be just and open when discussing, present fully the current situation and do not hide certain information even if it plays against your cause. As Allah (SWT) loves those who are sincere (relates to the comment made by Abuhannah above)

Never insult back those who insult you, especially when they are Muslims, and be kind back to them, then pray for them and forgive them, wasn’t the Messenger (PBUH) like this. (Relates to your article “pig ignorance of the mosque committee”)

Sisters remember your roles in society, your duties and responsibilities. Pursue them practice them and safeguard them. Do not pursue things Allah (SWT) made hard and far reaching. (Relates to article “patronising “women’s” issues”)

Kathy:

women of course do have a place in the mosque, however are the demands being made by some women not equally influenced by their cultural environment just as it is for those men ?

there is no necessity for women to attend mosque it is however the duty of men.

is a mixed prayer more free than one that is segregated? do women prove their equality in this way.

now from what i have seen and heard about the dispatches programme the way the women have acted is not acceptable, this does not in any way condone the attitudes of the men.

what i see is the very disunity, the divide and rule that has been pushed by the government.

are you certain that it is islam pushing mosques and men around or other not so friendly but vested interests?

The spineless and wormlike mosque committees...

they like to act like big men...

blackburn mafia.....


The signs of a hypocrite are three. Guess which one that falls into?

Having watched a bit about your encounter in Blackburn on TV, I do support your aims of getting women involved in the Masjid and related activities. As someone mentioned, I think it should be made clear that this seems to be an Asian cultural thing (Indian, Pakistan and Bangladesh), not necessarily a Muslim thing. I am from East Africa-Kenya and I don't think I have ever been to a Masjid there, big or small..even in small villages where there is not a Women's section and where women are quite involved in all activities.
Therefore this is something which needs to be sorted out among the above mentioned communities.

As Salaamu'alikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Brakatuh

First of all may Allah guide ALL Muslims to the Siraat-e-Mustaqeem. May He give Love, Respect and Acceptance within the hearts of ALL Muslims to accept the teachings of Islam through RIGHTLY guided 'Ulamaa. Aameen Thumma Aameen

I can only give 2 pieces of advice, as I consider myself weak and ignorant in matters of Deen:

1) If you are NOT an 'Aalim or a Mufti do NOT make/assume fatwaas (rulings) by yourself. To be an 'Aalim or a Mufti one needs decades of effort, guidance (from Allah and teachers) and practice. Merely picking up and reading a book on Neurology doesn't make one a Neurologist. Understand the analogy-it seems you are intelligent individuals.

2) Whichever of the 4 Madhabs you follow (and NO there aren't more than 4), consult an 'Aalim or Mufti who is of the same madhab as yourself or not. Makes sure they are local or at least in the same country and aware of the prevalent social conditions. They will be more than happy to explain their answeres in depth and detail or in clear and simple terms - which ever you need.

NB:

PLEASE SEEK PERMISSION TO SEE THEM FIRST.

IF PERMITTED, PLEASE ADHERE TO THE RULINGS OF HIJAAB/NIQAAB & SHAME/MODESTY PLEASE ENSURE A MAHRAM IS PRESENT WHEN VISTING A MUFTI/'AALIM.

Jazakallah Khair. Please remember this sinful brother in your humble Du'aas.

As Salaamu'alikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Brakatuh

Anon,London

Guy's let's be balalanced! what's all this women vs men mentality. We need each other to succeed, we are complimentary to each other. Gent's let's not cut half of the ummah, let us strive to return to the days when women scholars will teach men again. Ladies it's great that your enthusiatic but don't go to the extreme I certaintly don't wan't the so called "western civilised equality" because there is no such thing, the women in the west are over worked, underpaid, sexaully harrassed sex objects, and the femininst are falling in to the traps of these evil men such as playboy (playgirl) fhm, the sun.

AS SALAAMU ALAIKUM,

MAY PEACE AND BLESSING BE UPON YOU ALL.

SORRY MPAC, BUT ME TINKS U SCORED A SPECTACULAR OWN GOAL AFTER VIEWING DISPATCHES.

U ARE GONNA LOSE A LOT OF SUPPORT AFTA TODAY.

IM JUST BEING HONEST.

AFTA READIN UR ARTICLE ABOUT WHAT HAPENED AT BALFOUR ROAD I HAD SOME SYMPATHY FOR THE SISTERS, BUT TODAY I REALISED, WHOEVER WROTE THAT ARTICLE MUST HAVE BEEN TRAINED BY THE GUTTER BRITISH MEDIA. U MITE AS WELL WRITE FOR THE SUN, U PORTRAYED IT TO BE AN ATTACK ON THE SISTERS, WHEN IT WAS ALL YOU FAULT. I AM NOT CONDONING WHAT THE BOTHERS DID THAT DAY, BUT U ASKED FOR IT.

I AM A YOUTH WORKER IN NEWHAM, AND I AM PUSHING FOR MORE FACILITIES FOR YOUTH, BUT I DONT GO AROUND ALL THE MASJIDS, CAUSING FITNAH, U HAVE TO DO IT IN A MANNER OF PEACE AND HARMONY, NOT THROUGH PROVOCATION. THE ISLAMIC WAY IS NOT TO BARGE IN AND CAUSE FITNAH IN THE COMMUNITY, ITS ABOUT DOING IT THOROUGH DIALOGUE AND WISDOM.

THE APPROACH U USED WAS SIMILAR TO THE SHOCK AND AWE TACTICS OF THE KUFFAR AGAINST OUR MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS AROUND THE WORLD.

STOP PROMOTING THINGS WHICH DISUNITE THE UMMAH, SEEK TO UNITE THE UMMAH BY WISDOM, MPAC CERTAINLY SEEMS TO BE LACKING THIS!!! SEEK GUIDANCE FROM LEARNED SCHOLARS, AND STOP MAKING UP YOUR OWN INTERPRETATIONS OF ISLAM THROUGH YOUR LIMITED KNOWLEDGE, WE LAY PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO INTERPRET THE QURAN AND SUNNAH AND HADITH.

THE TRUTH OF ISLAM, WHEREBY THE MASAJID ARE THE CENTRE OF THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY, FOR WOMEN, CHILDREN AND MEN, IS A LONG WAY AWAY, BUT WE ARE ALL STRIVING FOR IT, AND ONLY THROUGH THE CORRECT GUIDANCE OF LEARNED SCHOLARS WILL WE BE ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD!!!!!

AND BY THE WAY, MCB HAVE NO POWER, WHAT SORT OF NONSENSE STATEMENT WAS THAT BY THE SISTERS!

PLEASE GET A GRIP!! FOR THE SAKE OF THE UMMAH!

I DO NOT CONDONE THE NARROW MINDEDNESS OF THE MASJID COMMITTEE'S. BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WORKING TOWARDS CHANGING THINGS THROUGH PEACEFUL MEANS SO STOP UNDOING OUR GOOD WORK.

WASSALAAM,

FORGIVE ME FOR ANY OFFENCE CAUSED.

YOUR BROTHER IN ISLAM.

BROTHER MOHAMMED

salam just finished wathcing the prog on c4 vey disapointing once again it shows us the muslims disrespecting each other on national tv,whilst i beleive that woman do have a right to pray in the mosque there are many mosques in east london that offer this more, and maybe a few mosque due to lack of funding and insufficent space cannot offer this faclity and due to the fact its not fard for a woman to pray in jama'ah as it is for men, i think this could have been delt with in a more respectful manner. it would be nice if we were on tv for positive work, not arguing especally in the holy month of ramadan.and of course this will be on tv and not somthing re ramdan and is blessings as it show diversion within the community.

I have seen the channel 4 program.

It seems the 21st century Muslima of ourtime are casual freemixers, do not adhere to the hijab as they meant to be doing, make-up artists (because they're worth it), lack very much the beauty of Hayaa, back biters, extremists in their actions.

Sisters you do not know how humiliating it was to watch you on tv. Allah will not give victory through you unless you change what is in yourselves first.

A noble cuase no one shall disagree, but your manhaj seriously needs to be thought about.

Rememebr, this is something that only be acheieved through patience.

Faizel ibn Muhammad, may Allah (SWT) reward you for your wise words.

I am not condemning the sisters in their aspirations, but only their methods chosen.

Please take into considerations everything people say, even those who you may not agree with.

Jzk.

Excellent article MPAC!

Support the idea that woman should have equal value in the muslim society.

Having grown up in Blackburn, I can say it is more of an asian cultural issue, partly out of ignorance.

The mosque is the house of God and should have a welcome for all, including woman and children.

I feel embarrassed as a 20 year old British, female, Muslim, to have seen the way those girls conducted themselves, especially outside a mosque and indeed when they were invited by representatives from the mosque to hold discussions.

Regardless of my views as to the issue that were being raised, I found it deeply disturbing that these girls chose such an inappropriate time and place to voice their concerns. Of course, they will argue that they were right, that they "represented" and that it was the perfect time and place; but perhaps if they showed less hostility, less bad attitude and a bit more tact, they would not have received the reception that they did - not that I condone it.

Their mate (the one who was arguing and trying to support his "sisters") detracted from the whole "cause". Even if, for argument's sake, I had supported the views of those girls up until that point, he put me off. I actually felt embarrassed for him. How dare he represent Muslim "brothers" in that way?

Instead of supporting what seemed to be a promising cause, the individuals on last night's documentary made me wish I had not seen it.

I Think Faizel ibn Muhammad has summed it all up...?

Astagfhirallah,
May Allah give us better understanding, Having just known about Mpac recently, I am seeing that Mpacuk is making bigger divisions in the religion. Please (sisters) Consult the ulamah before even approaching societies like the Mpac. the ulamah are there to solve youR misunderstandings. It is because the ladies have torn the hijab that other people get the opportunity to attack islam.

" MEN ARE OVERSEERS OF WOMEN"
Allamah Ibn-ul-Arabi (RA) comments on this verse:

The meaning of this verse is: I have made men overseers of women because I have granted the former superiority over the latter. This is due to three reasons viz.

a. perfect understanding

b. perfection of deen and obedience in jihad and commanding the good and forbidding the evil etc. This has been explained by Nabi sallallahu alaihi wasallam in an authentic Hadith.

"I have not seen any one of deficient intellect and deen who is more destructive to the intelligence of a cautious man than you women."

The women asked: "Why is that, O messenger of Allâh?" He replied: "Do you not spend a few nights without performing salâh and without keeping fast? This is the deficiency of her deen and the testimony of one of you equals half the testimony of a single man - this is the deficiency of her intellect. "... so that if one of the two women errs, the second would remind her". (Al Baqarah, verse 281)

c. His spending on her in the form of dowry and other expenditure. (Ahkâmul Qurân, verse 1, pg.416)

Allamah âlusi (RA) writes in the commentary of this verse that it is the quality of men to oversee the affairs of women just as the rulers oversee their subjects by commanding them to do good etc. This ruling is attributed to two reasons: one being wahbi (this is granted solely by Allâh) and the other Kasbi (i.e. achieved on account of his action).

a. because Allâh has granted him superiority as has been narrated (in the Hadith) that women are deficient in intellect and deen and men are the opposite, that is why risalat (prophethood), imamat-e-kubra and sughra (major and minor leadership), Adhân, Iqâmat, khuthba etc. are confined to men. (meaning that only men were Rasuls and Nabis and only man can rule, lead the salâh etc.)

b. because men bear the expenditure of women. (Ruhul Ma'âni, vl.5, pg.23)

Top

Before considering Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Uthmani's (RA) commentary, it is necessary that we first refer to the verse:

"And do not covet that which Allâh favours some of you with over others - men will receive the reward of what they earn and women will receive the reward of what they earn. And ask Allâh of his bounty. Verily Allâh has full knowledge of all things". [An Nisâ - 32]

Hafiz Ibn Katheer (RA) narrates on the authority of Imam Ahmad and Imam Tirmidhi that Umme Salmah (RA) said: "O Messenger of Allâh! The men wage Jihad whereas we (women) do not and we receive half the inheritance." (i.e. blood-brothers receive double the share of blood sisters). Thereafter the verse "And do not covet......" was revealed. (Ibn Katheer vl.1, pg.498)

This verse would therefore mean that when Allâh has granted some of mankind (i.e. men) virtue over others (i.e. women) by means of certain actions, then it is incorrect to covet the favour of Allâh on them because each of them will be rewarded according to his actions. Envy and complaining is of no avail. On the contrary, it would be most beneficial to ask Allâh for more reward for one's actions. Complaining and envy yield no reward. However all good actions yield reward. Verily Allâh has knowledge of everything and knows fully well the wisdom in specifying certain actions for man only. He knows best which actions are appropriate for men and which are appropriate for women.

Commenting on the verse "men are overseers....." Maulana Shabeer Saheb Uthmani (RA) writes: "It was mentioned in the previous verse that the rights of men and women have been given full consideration. Had their rights been given a different consideration (women's right were not considered fully as men's rights) women would be justified in complaining. This verse now explains that men have a status higher than women, women cannot complain because the difference of rules (regarding men and women) that result on accord of this additional degree of men is in total agreement with divine wisdom.....". (Tafsir-e-Uthmâni Pg.128)

salaam everyone

i think MPAC have portrayed a wrong image of Islam, and by doing that MPAC is going to lose a lot of support they used to recieve from the public, I know i have because i supported you first when you did the thing with handing leaflets out when jack straw was going for election but this i don't support at all, because you portrayed a bad image of Islam and that is not what Islam stands for.

Allah hafiz

MPAC,
Your stance on womens issues is shared by many in the Muslim community. However the documentry content was poorly researched and presented in a pathetic and immature manner. It could have been done in a much fairer, intelligent & logical manner.

A point to also mention is that, We never see similar documenteries that show the disputes occuring in synagogues or churches. Ofcourse they have issues and inequalities too, but debate in a logical manner without irrational and non-logical behaviour.

The best part of the documentry for me was when a strong Muslim woman from the Lancashire Council of Mosques, stood up and controlled the out of hand group discussion. Now that showed the worth of a rational, sensible and mature Muslim woman taking leadership on!

MPAC you will lose alot of support and credibility over this, maybe nextime you will think about the interest of the Muslim community before your own publicity interests. I was told by your team you had never done anything actively to get women involved in the mosque untill you were approached by Channel 4 to make the documentry.

MPAC: Think next time, you are accountable to the Muslim community. Act with genuine intention rather than incoordinated bravado.

after watching the Dispatches programme i was absolutey horrified at the MPACS campaign.
It was an utter disgrace to see muslim brothers and sisters causing mischief,dissention at the time of jummah prayers.
Could youre campaigners not find a better time to converse with the mosque commitee and mosque attendees???
Why did you need cameras their at a mosque???
At a time when the integrity of the islamic faith is under question,at a time where a vicous campaign is being waged against muslims by the media and politicians,boy,did you choose a time and a place to share youre southern, london version of islam.
I s mpac a front for the security services too create miscief amongst British muslims????
MPAC have created divisions attacking mosques,imams,muslims organisations,imams,tablheeg jamat,whose next on youre list???
The truth will always prevail,and in the case of MPAC the truth is youre lightweight rabble rousers looking to gain maximum media coverage.
I used to think yes MPAC was a modern forward thinking organisation but deep down what objectives principles you have are very divisive.
Are we really dim up north that we need sum londoners too tell us wat islam is???
youre too clever for youre own good wish youd creep back to the hole you came from.
shame on you MPAC,get a strategy,get objectives,and learn to live with some principles,hopefuly islamic ones. salaams

Huzaifa Patel:
Did the fall of the muslim empire in Spain not open the eyes of the muslims.
Islam has since been on a downer and it is getting worse.
Palestinians, Kashmiris, Iraqees, Afghanees being murrdered daily.
Our Wonderful Propher peace and blessings be upon him being attacked. Islam is being attacked.

Why? Beacuse we do not have the Youth and people who can defend the Ummah.

Why? because the very women in society who suppose to be bringing up the defenders of Islam are shun from muslim society. They have no say in muslim community. They are left at home to do cooking and cleaning and not given the islamic knowledge.
A few do go out and get islamic knowledge but they then just get married have kids and just become zombies.


How ironic. Everybody is criticising MPAC for its methods and we should have had more hayaah and shame and should've made dialogues.

Islam is crumbling around you. Islam dn Muslims are being attacked left right and centre. In Media, Politically and Violently across teh world.

do you really think there is time for dialogue and chit chat. Change is needed now, today.
And if MPACs method means exposing bad muslims to the world and it means shouting and screaming and not going the diplomatic way ie " the decent mans way" then I swear by Allah, Allah will forgive MPAC for taking this approach.
As I know they will make a change.


Great Job MPAC.

Carry on your work MPAC. There are 1.6 million muslims. not all of them are here criticising you.
The only people criticising you are either:

1. men who dont want women to have equal rights
2. women who have no say in their own marriage or in their own life and can't see the bigger picture of what you are doing
3. People who dont really care for Islam
4. women who do have islamic knowledge but have been taught that women have no say in Islam
5. the youth who are controlled by the older generation and who are in teh exact same mind set as the oldies


How short sighted we are as muslims. Do you think MPAc doing this was just for Women access to mosques. No it wasn't.

The whole point is about getting Muslim women Acctive again, get them involved in society, give them religious education. get them to make Muslim decisions. Make them the centre of Muslim Society like how they were at the times of Caliphs and during teh height sof Islam.
And the result would be an Active Muslim Woman who then, once married will be able to change her fella to become active which will then automaticaly make the children active and defenders of the Ummah.

We don't have Defenders of Islam/Ummah beacuse there are no Mothers left to nurture them and bring them up as defenders.



Men in society especially Muslim Men are always complaining about their daughters and I've heard this many times that "our muslim girls are so bad" "they are just like the white girls"

Well I tell you what the blame lies on you. Shame on you.

If you had open up the mosques and gave them a say in society then they wouldn't be bad as you make them out to be.They wouldn't then go towards the western culture which seems to give them more freedom and rights!

can I do this if im not registered?

Salam to all the brothers and sisters reading this (I know it's long but I would appreciate if you read this).

I used to happily be a member of MPACUK a few years back and I must commend you for some of the fantastic eye-opening articles you write about suffering of Muslims around the world. But i felt that the language you began to use was very offensive to Muslims, when it should have been critical instead.

And having watched last night's program, I feel that MPACUK seem to be continuously shooting themselves in the foot. The "program" Women Only Jihad only succedded in strengthening the already extreme views of right-wing tabloid journalism readers in this country.

I use the phrase "program" because it was barely that; it was an angry and disparaging insult on Islam itself, perpertrated by the very people who profess to be defending our religion.

YES, Islam teaches equality amongst sexes, there's no denying that. But what your farce did for the uninformed viewer, is give them the opinion that this is what Islam is, when you were actually dealing with cultural differences.

I don't profess to be a practicing Muslim myself, unfortunately. But nor do I carry out actions, or even have the intention, of doing something that could divide our communities further, or isolate ourselves more from non-Muslims.

How you can be of the opinion that shouting down Imams and causing a fracas outside mosques is Islamic, is frankly beyond me. You appear to be acting "democratic" in western sense, when you should be acting "democratic" in an Islamic sense.

I know some of the guys you showed were acting tough for the camera and being very pushy, but the women on the program were indefensible, acting more like feminists then Muslims. And the (not very gentle) gentleman from MPACUK wearing the glasses seems to be increasingly appearing on programs shouting at people he should have far more respect for. He's done it on Newsnight, he's shouted at an Imam on the Islam Channel, and now on C4.

I'm not attacking him as a Muslim per se, but I do suggest he uses the power he has as being part of MPACUK in a far more constructive and respectful manner.

I thank you for your time (and insha'Allah in showing my message).

May Allah show us all the right path insha'Allah.

Abeed

I have been reading opinions on this page and those linked to it for about the last two hours and I watched the channel 4 programme last night.

I think the portrayal of male attitudes was VERY accurate. After all it wasn't the MEDIA that was threw the egg (although they didn't show this on the program).

I have noticed that many of the comments are about MPACs approach rather than the conduct of the men. This seems characteristic of female subjugation.

I loved that fact that attention was drawn to women who had suffered domestic violence needed and wanted an method to deal with this through their mosques (this has been mentioned very little in the debate on this page - again a characteristic of dominating females - lets act like the issue doesn't exist).

The women approach the mosque in a perfectly peaceful manner (and I fear what may have happened to them if they did not take a camera with them) and handed out leaflets and try to put forward their request.

It seems to me we should be spending more time educating Muslim MEN on how to deal with issues that may be contentious without resorting to aggression, belittling and violence - this was the major reason for the escalation of the scenario. Is there a course you can send them on or something?

I grew up in a Muslim house mainly with Muslim men and this behaviour seems a prevalent trait. This is just my experience though....

Additionally it was interesting that they mentioned Muslim girls were are doing twice as well in schools as their male counterparts, particularly as I have read SO MUCH about men being created with a divine attribute of greater intelligence - I think someone had better communicate this to the boys at school.

And the programme clearly pointed out that 40% of mosques in the UK did allow women some type of facilities.

As for Christians and Jews not receiving this type of publicity - I do remember there being (and still being) a lot of media coverage about homosexuals in churches and about females in church leadership - it was very contentious. It just seems to me that non-Muslims have a better forum for discourse than egg throwing and violence.

Still if that’s how you wish to treat your women, and you don’t want organisations like MPAC to expose this type of behaviour (no doubt you’re probably annoyed that they showed domestic violence occurs in Islamic communities too), don’t be surprised if the rest of the world doesn't take you too seriously and views you as backward.

Carry on MPAC! The condemning views on here are very similar the ones Southall Black Sisters received when their organisation became active around domestic violence in the Asian communities.

Sorry for the long post.

I missed the documentary. Can anyone tell me where I can watch it?

There seems to be alot of mixed feelings about the issue, however i will not comment until I see whats all the fuss about.

I will really appreciate it if someone can upload it on google video.

asslamulkium i have seen your programme on channel 4, and after studying for the last 5 years on islam and the role of women. It is very sad what the imams are doing and the way they went about and refesed to listen to the sisters.

It is true that when women gets involved in most things, things do work out for the better, sad thing is this practice are coming from back from our organial country, though slowely slowely things are getting better, i guss everythign will change when these old generation and the current imams are taught islam from the real quran and sunnah.. i understand that some hadith does state that a women should stay home and pray but then you must understand why this was mentioned, when you read carefully you will realise that women should go to the mosque as the prophet did say do not stop your women going to mosque.

Thank you for giving some time

Brother abu adil

Don't you think it is bad enough that the West portray Islam as an oppresive religion for women. Surely you are the enemy within. Mpacuk have got their facts wrong. You are aware that our prophet(pbuh) said it is preferred for women to pray at home. That our homes are our mosques. How then can you go against our teachings? Yes women have a choice but many prefer to stay at home. Maybe that shows why your campaign only consisted of 6-7 women. And your petition was signed by misinformed members of the public. Also if you wish to make a point you do it in the correct Islamic manner - dialogue, not through provocation.

The point is your campaign is total nonsense why not campaign about something that will actually benefit the Ummah.

A 30 something Ilford muslim

There's a lot that is wrong with the current state of affairs of the Ummah, and it was all too evident in the Dispatches programme last night.

MPAC consistently accuses Masjid committe members of being "thugs", "the mafia", "baboons", "goons" etc... yet there protests (sorry Jihad) outside the Masjid (250 miles north west of London) wasn't staged, it was just a conicidence honest. Asghar, the MPAC sisters and the Channel Four documentary crew happened to be passing through, Blackburn on there way to the local masjid in Ilford, you can never rely on Sat Navs, technology hey!

All in all it was a good days work for MPAC and Channel Four, MPAC did there bit for advancing the cause of Islam and women’s rights (nothing like a good punch up and slanging match to put your proposal forward to the committee members) esp in these difficult times.

Setting up a meeting to discuss in a civilised manner is far too difficult and time consuming requires a lot of effort and patience and having to listen
to other peoples opinions. Far better to get your point across in the most direct method, strike whilst the iron is hot and do it in the most eloquent and direct manner possible utilise the Media... they've been banging on about it for years, its the way forward apparently. The more controversial you are the more often you get invited back to the TV studios and thats when you can really change public opinion.

"A weeks a long time in politics" as someone once said, with the blessed month of Ramadhan, surely all sides would have clamed down and realised the error of there ways for we are all Muslims, brothers and sisters in Islam. So when the invitation from Lancashire Council of Masjids to MPAC to discuss the women’s prayer facilities, this was it the tipping point progress at last. The estmeed Mujahid once again made the journey to Blackburn surely now whilst they were fasting they would have behave.

And to be fair the two sisters from the Lancashire Council of Mosques were intelligent, knowledgeable, respectful and a credit to our community. The Mujhid of MPAC
were ready to air there concerns, and how did are esteemed mujahid raise the bar, like the only way they know how... to borrow a few phrases from MPAC like "thugs",
"a mafia", "baboons", "goons" etc. The irony of it all will be lost on MPAC'ers for they "the self righteous mujahadeen" are always right.

I sincerely believe the MPAC sisters had good intentions; they are young, naive and impressionable. The leadership and the leadership alone should be held accountable.

a) for agreeing to this documentary for self publicity (All publicity is good publicity)
b) for not culturing the MPAC sisters on adhaab
c) for the oh so typical wishy washy research, read a few books get a few quotes and bobs ure uncle, we don't need any guidance I know it all.
d) the MPAC methodology of creating the utmost furor to get into the Media
e) thinking only they and they alone are doing an ounce of good work

When Islam is used as a tool, rather than the basis for your organisation this is what happens.

This like all the comments posted on this website are comments and nothing more, the leadership will not change like the elders they accuse, there will be no mass resignations or walkouts within the organisation for the sheep are not there to question only to be directed . Just same old, same old.

Again the parallels between the accused (Masjid committees) and accussers (MPAC) are scary; both are of the same stock, one set on the inside of the Masjid and the other (MPAC) outside banging at the door to get it.

I did liked the agenda of MPAC but not the approach and methodology used. The method raises too much anger and conflict. A peaceful movement should avoid this. It wasnt a good idea to aire such a documentry on national TV, can you imagine how many old men going to the Mosque are going to get attacked by some ignorants. This is not an issue of the whole country, rather the Muslim community which only makes up about 2%, even then alot of Muslims don't even go to the Mosques.

Its not a good idea to approach the same mosque again and again if nothing is really going to change or if there is bad will. Its better to go to the Mosques that will change, bring the numbers from 40% to 80% because many will change. Then those that wont change will say hey somethings not right about our mosque. People and communities will conform.

Well Done MPAC! Quit having a go at the sisters...they were smart and brave. They are clearly committed to Islam and I know for a FACT that all MPAC want is to help the Ummah...and you cannot deny that women are HALF THE UMMAH! Go ladies...you give us hope! And as for the MPAC fellas...we need more like you, mashallah! You all harp on about Islamic etiquette? try being subjugated and excluded all your life and see how much patience you have?! They did not nothing to bring Islam into disrepute...they showed a reality..it is time to face it, and change it!

Salaams All,

What a fantastic comment by 'MPAC Mujahid' above/below wherever it is in relation to mine! Take all the others down and leave that one up. Thank you whoever you are for being that which MPAC aspire to be but fail so spectacularly at being: Eloquent.

As I said to some friends earlier, shouting and stamping your feet only seems to work for 2 yr olds and even that's short term. And what was the reading namaaz across the road all about?! Adhab, adhab, adhab. There's one for 'Tony' next time :-p

Well done MPACUK on "Women Only Jihad".

The aim was worthy.

a comment to huzaifa
salam not all people fall into you list(im an educated working women) i didnt like the conduct of the programe i do agree women have rights to pray in mosque but there are ways and times to do this not on national tv,showing muslims disrespecting each other and aruging especally in the month of ramadan.as an ummah we have bigger things to concern our self with like occupation in our lands and our brothers and sisters dying and starving to death every day, im a women and a revert to islam think how this programe looked to non muslims.allah has given women there rights we need to read what they are and learn to behave and be modest. i dont think the programe showed any posive behaviour from the muslims involved and doubt that shouting and arguing will change things it just shows the non muslims that we cant conduct ourselfs in a respectful manner. may allah guide us all inshallah

I'm not the type of person who posts their opinions on any website but I feel that I need to vent my frustrations in respect of the Channel Programme,'Women only Jihad.'It was absolutely abominable. The sisters behaved in such an aggressive and antagonistic manner. Rude. Totally uninslamic.

The Prophet, May Allaah's Peace and Blessings be upon him, preached the message of Islam with beautiful words and gentle manners. He also said that the best of you are the ones with the best manners.

Does not MPAC think that had the sisters made prior appointments with the mosques in question and/or spoken with respect and politeness to the imams, that they may have made more headway? (Certainly it would have made for a less appealing documentary for Channel 4 to broadcast.)

So why were the sisters bardging in on Friday prayers which are obligatory on the men only? Why were they shouting at the brothers as they were leaving the mosques? Why were they not lowering their gaze and behaving with dignity and modesty so that they would not be molested themselves? Why were they raising their voices at muslim men and women old enough to be their fathers and mothers or even grandparent? Why were they critisizing the muslim brother at the MCB after he had kindly listened to their grievance? Why was such a vulgar approach chosen by MPAC?

MPAC you have done us muslims a great disservice. In a world which villifys muslims left, right and centre, you have managed to confirm the West's (totally wrong) steriotypical view of Islam being oppressive and chuavinistic.

There are, alhamdulillaah, many mosques in England which do cater for the muslimah (which was passed over in the documentary). Women are free to go if they choose.

Prior to watching the programme I would have whole heartedly supported MPAC's campaign for more facillities for women in mosques. However now, I cannot make myself support an organisation which is willing to adopt such naive and unislamic tactics.

If you wish to be successful, look towards the sunnah and follow the methods employed by the Messenger of Allaah, May Allaah's Peace and Blessings be upon him.

Please MPAC be humble and take these words as constructive critisizm.

Sister Afshan.

mpac needs to understand somethings before it tackles this campaign

1) there is a very strong and valid arguement that women should not go to mosques, if mpac regard themselves supporters of Islamic shariah they need to come to terms with this and not go at it with hammer and tongs.

Fiqh is dealt with through and by ulema, it is dealt with through scholastic approach not pickets. this would show a disregard for fiqh.

2) there are scholars who believe women should be allowed to worship at mosques mpac needs to engage the debate through these scholars not by pickets.

3) hayah is from iman and Muslimahs as well as men need to observe some slf respect and decorum, muslim men who disagree with womens worship need to treat the muslimahs with calm and gentle manners, and explain their position to the objectors.

mpAC approach is not helpful in this matter, it can and will back fire.

Allah has power over all things.

Al lthis programme showed was that muslims of the sub continent left there over 30 yrs ago but the sub continent hasnt left them. If you go to the three main mosques,,they all allow women in. Hazrat Aisha new more about islam and the sunnah of the prophet than any male in that period. Even thousands of years ago the prophet said that a time would come when muslims would be lead by illiterates, and how true that is. eg old men in mosque committees, talk a good game but in reality havent a clue, musharaf,hosni mubarak,karzai,,king of jordan, the saudi royal family..

i am a muslim sister. i alhamdulillah hope im practising the deen to my best capabilities. subhanALlah...i always thought you guys were good for this ummah here in the UK...but mpac!!! what a mess!! what did u get out of it?! i felt so embarassed and so ashamed of the way the sisters went about to themselves heard!! i was disgusted and im still cringing at the sight of sisters heckling brothers at jumuah salaat of all times!!!

now the majority of those who watched dispatches will probly think its like that all over the place...it aint! some mosques are not funded to accomodate sisters!its hard for them to get funds....my mosque is a semi-detached house for petes sake! its not fard for us to pray in the mosques!

what is wrong with you guys...you guys are playing right into the zionists and islamophobes hands?!! cant u see that? why divide the ummah and cause fitnah?!i really have lost faith in you mpac!

The agenda of teh prgramme was good, however it was the immature manner it was carried out in. Most women Ive spoken to felt it was ingenuine and done for getting mpac on the media. The sisters were not well spoken and infact said some very strange things that will not help the muslim community but cause more resentment towards us.

One sister (Sabah) said she took off the hijab because it made her a better Muslim, she had no evidence from her life to back this comment, but just said it means Im not following the literal book opinions, its made e a better Muslim. Now that really is a very prgressive and pthetic argument. Its fine that she doesnt wear the hijab but to say its made her a better Muslim without any back up makes her look silly.

I think most women in the uk support the need for access to the mosque, but would chose not to humilaite and terrorise institutions. A battle is not necessarily about fighting, its about good strategy and intelligence, something I think your lacking MPAC.
Perhaps question your family leadership, isnt it about time in your 6 years you push aside the two brothers who have been running it and let fresh blood in?

Asma if you think your so good at leading, why dont you get off your over ripe backside and LEAD! - kee us informed of how your organisation is doing, and what its dont for womens rights!

everyone is moaning at mpac and condemning them in such strong terms you have problems with women making themselves heard you have no problem with those that abused them i didnt hear any sister heckle anyone while they prayed i did see sisters with a baby having to pray on the pavement and i heard a man sy f off to them!! why does no one condemn that?? Why dont you get worked up over other things? Why dont people condemn muslim men when they do really unacceptable things like go to brothels and them kill a policewomen where is outrage over that?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6099036.stm?ls

Check it out! Loads of people banging messages on web. I wonder where you all were when the Ummah needs you.

Oh yeah, forgot, "busy with work," or "busy with exams."

If al you come together as one, and went to meet MPAC and helped out, jeesh, we would have some activities kicking off.

But I can see it now. Some bursting words for a week or month and then...back to normal "me" kind of life again.

I was in absolute disbelief after seeing your programme. I was completely embarresed by the way you guys acted. Isn't it bad engough that the non muslims portray us in a negative light, and now you have the muslims disgracing their own as well.This could have been discussed with the appropriate bodies involved in a private manner, and we could have stayed out of the spot light for ONCE, but instead you felt the need to take a camera in and humiliate not just yourselves but the entire ummah.... WHY?

None of us are really doing anything-we get hyper about Mpacs mistakes and the womens approach. Some of the women shown were abused-beaten on and broken, and Im not talking about the ones from Mpac im talking about the women suffering domestic violence.
I suppose you noble men who are quoting hadiths claiming that women are not meant to be in mosques, have lesser intelligence or lead men astray are going to look after these women who are subjugated? i suppose the women who are embarassed about the 'adhaab' and 'hayah' styles of the Mpac females are going to show everyone the way to react and defend oneself in a potentially threatening volatile situation? Perhaps these are the more profound issues? Perhaps you're life is good and your mosque supports you so nobody else should complain- cos ure ok and well, why rock the boat? Or maybe, just maybe we may write to ch4 for there ever-so automatic editing skills? Cos were all experts now arent we? We know the right way-so dont fret anyone these righteous men and women will show you-after they free themselves of securing their own solo slot in heaven- how to conduct a discussion. I challenge them-and im not even part of MPAC-all Im saying is riseup to the challenge and show us-not just tell us how as abused women, and those needing guidance and have no family here can be given a say and Islamic support.

Fozia

Did you watch the same program or was it something else, because the ones we watched, was showing and dispelling a lot of myths, showed the truth how some organisations are weak.

One guy saying, "next you want to be president of the comittee."

Why not?

Fearing loss of power, I'd say. By doing things privately, you give ammunition for the BNP and others because when things done privatley, NOTHING HAPPENS. It's behind closed doors and this...is what has happened for years.

You are humilated because you saw not the sisters but your own mirror, called weakness, lack of action, procrastination, lack of consistent input and go and get the job done. You saw your own helplessness and already you're saying, "humilate...me?" Me, I, has had enough. No more hiding away from responsibility and they are fighting for you, your future daughters who need an Islamic education, be part of the Ummah, the community.

Woemn are being raped, and yet no help from mosques because they're scared to do a thing and even get a helpline moving in. What woman wants to talk to a Male Imam. Rather she talk to a sisters on the comittee or sisters who have their own office in mosque catering for women.

THAT'S WHAT MOSQUES are also for. Refuge, a focal point. The pillar of society not just salat. Learn your deen!

If it was you, you'd be shaking and you're knees kicking each other because what these sisters did was courage, and they dispelled a lot of myths and showed the community for what they are. CORRUPT and in the pockets of backward men and women.

You all took it way out of porportion and when I saw it, I was like, "are these Muslims who talk about humailation stupid or what?

Get a life people. THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT YOU. Open your eyes and GET THE BIG PICTURE. THe FUTURE GENERATION need these mosques to be active with sisters, they need a source, and it's about time!

salaam to you all, i cannot make too much comment on how and what this organisation did good or bad for the umma, in uk... or blackburn... forst of all i belive that anyone who has an orgnasation which represents islam should try to have knoweldge in islam, as they will be questioned in every aspect... sooner or later, as they are islamic organisation, for example identity is very important a women who has hijab any faith even the athiest will know that this lady is a muslim by faith, same with a man he should have a beard as this is the commendment of our prophet, so when i see a man with no beard i cannot give him this salaam which allah ask from me unless i know he is a beliver, so brother in this organisation behave like a muslim act like a muslim work like a muslim... respect all the brother and sisters, do not make fun or make them angry in a national tv.... you yourself putting yourself down.... even though you know that over 60 % of the mosque in the uk has facility for women, use this as evidance.. dont just target one or 2 mosque in you area what do u think will the non belivers will say that all amosque give no space to women they all ready thinks that we oppress our sisters, our mothers, our wives we give no right etc... by showing this you just giving them an opportunty to target us...... naybe you should start following the school of thought that you mentioned and learn what the teacher that you are following how to go about preaching... May allah give you all the strentgh and guidance inshallah


Brother in islam
Islamic vision Bangladesh