ACT NOW!!

Dear Mr Snow,

I hope this email reaches you and your team in the best of health.

I would like to take my time out to say a big thank you for your insightful questioning of the State of Israel's actions against the Palestinian people.

There are not many people like yourself in the Media nowadays, and I know for a fact that those who condone such terrorist actions will be on your case. But, I ask you to stand firm and against injustice, against falsehood.

I know for a fact that the Muslim community is asleep and wouldn't even know about what you did, but on their behalf and on the behalf of those little Palestinian kids who are dying in the Hospitals because of the lack of water and electricity they will be appreciated for making their voice heard.

My only wish is that our government does something to stop these crimes against humanity and more courageous people like yourself stand up and speak out against the people who have no voice, who are the most oppresses people since the Nazi era.

Thank you again Mr Snow and I wish you all the best.

Warm Regards,
A Fellow British Muslim Citizen

The Palestinian Arabs elected a government dedicated to the eradication of the Jewish state. The Palestinian electorate must now accept the consequences of that decision. Since the Israeli pull-out from Gaza around 1,000 rockets have landed on Israeli soil. The Israelis were fully entitled to retaliate, and the destruction of the power station will hopefully slow down the production of rockets. In this sense it may be compared with the famous 'Dambusters' attack by the Royal Air Force in 1943 - the destruction of the Ruhr dams, causing over 1,000 civilian casualties and knocking out several power stations.

Fantastic Interview, I have just emailed both parties. Forgot to copy my message for other to use, but it was just a simply message saying what a fantastic interview it was.

About time a Journalist asked some serious questions from an Israeli representative.

@ Professor Alderman

For a professor that argument was the simply the abominable strawman! How can Israel say that this is revenge for the 1000 (toy) rockets that were fired over into Israel since the withdrawal, as Israel has also been shelling back on a dialy basis!

Congrats to Jon Snow to have courage to question Israeli Ambassador but he did not go far. Here Cook who is the resident of Nazareth wrote about bias by the BBC

"We can ignore the weeks of shelling by the Israeli army of Gaza, the firing of hundreds of missiles into the crowded Strip that have destroyed Palestinian lives and property, while spreading terror among the civilian population and deepening the psychological trauma suffered by a generation of children.



We can ignore the deaths of more than 30 civilians, and dozens of horrific injuries, in the past few weeks at the hands of the Israeli military, including three children hit in a botched air strike last week, and a heavily pregnant woman and her doctor brother killed a day later as a missile slammed into the room where they were eating dinner.



We can ignore the blockade of Gaza's "borders" by the Israeli army for months on end, which has prevented Palestinians in the Strip from trading goods at crossing points with Israel and from receiving vital supplies of food

and medicines. As a captive population besieged by Israeli soldiers, Gazans are facing a humanitarian catastrophe sanctioned by Israeli government policy and implemented by the Israeli army.



We can ignore Israel's bullying of the international community to connive in the starving of the Hamas-led government of funds and diplomatic room for manoeuvre, thereby preventing the elected Palestinian leadership from running Gaza. So desperate is the situation there that Hamas officials are being forced to smuggle in millions of dollars of cash stuffed in suitcases to pay salaries.



And finally we can ignore the violation of Palestinian territory by Israeli commandos who infiltrated Gaza a day before the Palestinian attack to kidnap two Palestinians Israel claims are terrorists. They have been "disappeared", doubtless to be be held in administrative detention, where they can denied access to lawyers, the courts and, of course, justice."

This is what to be told.

Dear Mr Snow,

I felt I had to write in having watched your interview with the Israeli Ambassador to London yesterday.

The interview was both a powerful and arresting piece of journalism and addressed many issues that have been circumvented by clever media dynamics and diplomatic manipulation particularly in recent times.

In our current climate of sensitivities, one must be careful to examine chains of events in a balanced and non-biased light. Your probing questions and open-mindedness are testimony to this.

I would also like to add as a side note, I enjoy watching your news pieces, I find them to be of exceptional quality.


Many thanks & kind regards,

Dear Professor Alderman,
If the Israelis can elect Likuds and one Ultra Right anti-Palestinian government after the other and that is not made into a problem why Hamas getting elected turns so disputatious? The problem is simply the stark unevenness in the world politics and the Palestinains are paying the price for what the Europeans heniously did to hapless Jews over centuries and until recently. Sadly and ironically, the former victims, in many cases, have become today's perpetrators which is seriously compromising the transcendant moral values of Judaism nurtured over 5,000 years. Other than Palestinians refusing to become American Indians on their own soil, it is a serious moral question that our Jewish brothers and sisters--much like Gush Shalom--should be asking their Zionists colleagues. Neither Al-Fatah nor Hamas, nor even Arabs or Muslims are acceptable as per traditional Israeli dictum, so where should we bring the ideal people from that the state of Israel should feel comfortable with? We are all mortals and let us make a new beginning. Israel is a part of the Middle East and should responsibly help towards a new, peaceful and forward looking Middle East. It should not continue to project itself as an extension of an expansive, arrogant and dismissive imperial North Atlantic legacy. We do not choose our neighbours; we live with them. I am sure there are many many well meaning people on all sides and we need to stand up for larger human welfare instead of mutual condemnation and annihilation.
Regards,
Iftikhar

Are they really really just little toy rockets ??? Not capable of hurting anyone ?

Snow is an idiot to say that.

These are not crimes against humanity
Israel has the right to self defense after they relinquished Gaza totally into Hamas hands who then permitted not less than 1000 rocket strikes in less than 5 months.[ really a pathetic comment by J.Snow here]
They then attacked Israel proper and kidnapped a soldier . They knew they were playing with fire.
All they had to do was to release him as was requested by most countries.
But no - they want Israel in ; to create sympathy for them .
It doesnt wash.
They are getting what they deserve and I hope that the world will see one less terrorist organisation in the near future.

The comparison of the dam busters show how little in touch the fifth column is intersted with facts as well as the example of the principe of retaliation. Ther unequal capability of the terror settlement callend israel vs home made rocketts shoew again how hate filled it really is. As a pensioner who has seen this & the West's policy taken over by a bunch of disloyal foriegners who say it is fine to commit genocide & yet use OUR passports to take part in this mass murder. Almost 10,000 shells have fallen on actual civilian areas & since this rogue regime 'israel' has plans to do this to use via a false flag nuclear strike as seen in 1973 with gold meyer. 'israel' has NO civilian strutures s ins everything has a military aspect so the Palestinians have a Human Rght to retaliate against this Anti Semitic terror settlement. The world is with the Palestinians, not 'israel'.

I agree that the Arab Nations are asleep, let hope that stories like this will help wake them up. We have to use the powerful weapon of internet to speak up. I applaude Mr. Snow. And I applaude Channel 4 for trying to keep the truth on the air. And being an honest friend of the 'Muddled East'.

Where have Mr. Snow been all these years? Quich, we need to clone as many of him as possible.

Does anyone has a count on israeli casulaties hit by Palestinian rockets?

Looking at the zionists bombing Gaza is a bit like watching the Germans deal with a Jewish camp. The Jewish state is indeed a Nazi state.

Toy rockets? Who're trying to kid? Box cutters are harmless really, but look at the consequences if it finds its way into the hands of islamofascists.

Its the intent stupid (to paraphrase Bill Clinton). Try to make your case in a court of law (a real one of course, not your "hamss, shoot you in the street" one). Even if its a toothpick, its the intent. Stupid.

Dear Mr. Snow,
I respect you very much for this interview. I wish there would be just one journalist in Germany having the courage, too. Must be our horrible history that also the politicians ignore how the Palestinian people have to suffer by the Israeli occupation force since decades!
Wish you all the best,
Mary Strasdas

Dear All,

Albert Einstein once said

" The important thing is not to stop questioning"

In this case, there are so many questions. As Muslims this above concept of questioning the whys and hows etc have been forgotten; EVEN THOUGH IT IS A FUNDAMENTAL TENANT OF OUR FAITH. We are hell-bent on our own destruction by continuous in-fighting.

WAKE UP!!!!

Professor Alderman, you say that the Palestinian resistance fired 1000 rockets into israel. You will find that your comments are actually untrue. All of the rockets that were fired were aimed into settlements illegal under international law and not recognised to be within israeli borders. Therefore the Palestinians are more than entitled to fight to retrieve land stolen from them by the occupation forces. Also what people have misunderstood from what John Snow had to say about the rockets bieng pathetic, is that they really are pathetic when compared to the massive destructive force the weapons that israel uses have. Obviously they will hurt somebody if they get caught in the blast, but injuries and fatalities are very rare in comparison to the tremendous explosive power unleashed in heavily populated areas in Gaza and the like by the israeli millitary. Atleast 2 or 3 Palestinian civillians loose their lives on a weekly basis due to bombardment.

for those on this page who have been biased with Israel against the Palestinian hamas-led government...i think you should seriously consider what makes you support the state of Israel-when the actions you condemn Hamas of are the very actions( if not more so)you condone Israel for,though it has been delivering terror to the palestinian people for 60 years now.Now THAT is seriously dangerous..you should be more cautious,mindful,logical,especially when you wish to convey a message to people publicly..such as on this page!!Be honest with yourselves!
Best Regards to Jon Snow and the Channel 4 News crew.We need longer versions of such bold interviews,so people can get a clearer idea of the reality of this conflict!

Prof. Alderman, Dr david Barret heres some questions for u - u both seem like intelligent people so im not going to provide u with the answers!

1. 1000 rockets have been fired into the illegal settlements, killing and injuring how many? and how many palestinian civillians have been killed by shellings, bombings in gaza in the last 5 months? (i think u'll find tht is wht jon snow meant by the rockets being pathetic!)

2. u talk about "entitlement" to defend oneself, so what does the geneva convention say about a nations right to defend itself against OCCUPYING forces?

3. u also claim the Palestinians as having selected a govt "dedicated to the eradication of the Jewish state" Now what was it tht Dov Weisglass senior advisor to Ariel sharon, said exactly in an interview with Haaretz daily last August during the disengagement? did it go something like this?... "the significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process…. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda" SO by re electing the same khadima party are the israeli citizens therefore not guilty of wanting the eradcation of any hope for the palestinian state?

4. Did the IDF and Shin Bet not just KIDNAP 2 civillians from gaza the day before the soldier Shalit was CAPTURED? (please pay attention to the words in bold!)so when israel kidnaps CIVILLIANS on a daily basis they are a state and when a SOLDIER is captured the palestinians involved are part of a terrorist organisation?

4. Is israel not the "only democracy in the middle east" the pilar of morality... etc etc? Can such a state then be seen to be emulating such vengeful acts and using the Dambusters attack of 1943 as justification for its acts?!

I can think of many such questions which im sure you would enjoy answering but for now i think these should suffice

Jon Snow has brought some of these questions to the public via the mainstream media- lets not stop questioning now

Fab work by MPAC yet again. Noy a single mosque/isoc/org has raised this alert - which doesn't really surprise me anymore sadly...

Three cheers for Snow...

Fantastic interview, if only it went on longer...John Snow was tearing him to shreds.. well done channel 4!!

i'd like to thank channel four for supporting the Palestinan people at the time where all the media are blinded because of fear from the zionest lobby and where it is very rare to find sombody knowing what actually happens on the ground and declares it honestly.
many many thanks.

To Mustaq
No , he did not
Snow was rude, aggressive and impatient . He knows that the Ambassador is not a native English speaker. Snow indeed monopolised the majority of air time .
Remember with all that air power only one person , a terrorist ,was killed.
NO civilian casualties and think on-- Israel knew when their enemy was visiting the damaged property - could have taken them out then .
Release the soldier and the whole show is over within the hour.
Reminds me of Pharoah , his advisors , the plagues and a streak of stubborness!

Jon snow's a socialist scumbag. He panders to every ethnic group. I'd like to seem him be as tough with a member of Hamas.

John Handford-The southern Israeli towns of Sderot and Ashkelon are settlements not within recognized Israel?

Errr, please pull out a map, sir. They very clearly are and have been for almost 60 years. And they have been the victims of unceasing rocket attacks both before and after the Divine withdrawal from the Gaza strip.

We can go on for hours and hours about shelling, counter-reprisals, kidnappings, etc., but it's a basic fact that those towns are in Israel.

It astounds and saddens me that this lack of basic facts is so obviously missing from this discussion...

Sir

Many thanks indeed for having the courage to ask the questions others in the media seem afraid to ask from fear of being labelled "anit-semetic" which is not the same as being anti-oppressive state regime.

Please please please do not discontinue this fantastic journalism when it can be used to address other world issues in the same way.


Warm regards

Harpreet Bal

Nottingham

I just caused about 1,000 people to have awareness of this... hopefully will have about 500 emails sent to ch4 minimum. Thats just from me being the seed. :) May allah grant us greater numbers.

Well done, Mr Snow!
Let it NOT stop here, but, we want a couple of more likewise interviews in the very near future!
It seems as if Professor Alderman is confused; it's the other way round, the zionists want to eradicate the entire Muslim Ummah!

I wish to express my deepest gratitude to Jon Snow for his superb interview with the deputy Israeli ambassador to London. It was most definitely an example of media presentation at its best. The questions asked I felt to be extremely pertinent and ultimately necessary in producing a balanced viewpoint regarding the events currently taking place in the occupied territories. Furthermore the account of the situation in Gaza was very heart moving as it both analysed the political events taking place but also the effect of the Israeli militaries actions on the common Palestinian; a viewpoint which can often be missed in many other news programmes looking at this emotive subject.



Once again i commend channel4 and Jon Snow for a remarkable interview which expressed the feelings which many in Britain hold about the injustice of Israeli policies in Gaza and even if sufficient answers were not given, to not ask such questions would be a blot on western values of expression and protection of minority groups and a signal that Israel has a freehand to continue its policy of collective punishment which many feel is tantamount to genocide. .

Does anyone reading here, know if it could be possible to get things like medicine and food into Gaza via Egypt or maybe by the sea ?

Is the only way trough Israel ?

Brothers and sisters.... Email every muslim on ur email contacts to inform them about this. Make them send an email to C4 AND make them chain email it on. Also get feedback to ensure 1 they sent an email, 2 make sure they sent it to everyone on their contacts, 3 ensure they get people to do the same.... keep the chain going.

to compare the english to thugs refusing children the right to sleep, their right to clean drinking water, or indeed access to medical care and dragging in the destruction of the Ruhr dams is to me wholly distasteful and a clear example of how if you dare to criticise Israel you are an anti-semite.

they are incomparable... Palestinians are not all freedom-fighters, nor - do i hope - are all israeli - state-sponsored terrorists...

we are all one. what - on earth - made you think otherwise?

It would be intresting to see what the American Intercontinental University in London thinks of Prof G. Aldermans writing/opinions. Anyone care to ask the university if such a clearly racist remark is a policy of the University? Where is that Asghar Bukhari? I am sure he would ask :)

This is sickening! We have all know Israel is a terror is a terror state driven by Zionists! Time the internation government and UN woke up and took heavy action against them!

Salaamz,

Congratulations to John Snow to be able to put those questions through.

To the idiot who was complaining about english not being the first language of the ambassador, then why the hell did he come to England to represent Israel? He shouldn't have been eligable for such a country if his english was so poor.Crap excuses like that is so irritating. Along with the other crap excuse of avoiding "bloodshed" by not sending in the troops and destroying the last remaining power station to be more "humane". It's the same thing, only that the bloodbath would have looked too bad because too many would die within too short a time span. With the destruction of the power station it's the same too many people being killed, but over a longer frame of time, and with the media influence and the short span of memory of the general public, it is an even more cruel and obscene way of killing.

The Palestinians are worse off than the Jews in Germany. 6 million died, over a short time frame, but the palestinians have been systematically slaughtered over the last 60years. and another 60 years from the way things are going. Atleast the jews had an instantaneous death, not this long drawn out death the Palestinians are facing. Atleast mass graves were found of the Jews to tell and remind of the horrors of humankinds' worst, where as there are no remains of the Palestinians killed because of the continuous bombing of the Palestinians by the IDF. Atleast the Jews had world sympathy, unlike the Palestinians who are now considered whole-heartedly a terrorist nation, when none of the 9/11 or 7/7 bombers were Palestinians.

the first ,i wanna ask,, WHERE IS THE HUMANTY RIGHTS? ARE THEY JUST FOR EUROPEAN OR WHITE AMER0CAN OR CHIRISTIAN OR JEW?? THE WHITE PEOPLE REVOLT AT KILLING EVEN A LITTLE DOG ,A FISH ..BUT WHY DONT THEY SEE MANY PEOPLE KILLED BY WHITE MEN IN IRAQ ,AFGANISTAN,PALESTIAN AND EVEN LITTLE INNOCENT CHILDREN ???? IS IT HUMANTY? THEN I HAVEN'T ANY COMMENT ,,THERE IS A WRONG IN THIS WORLD ..

To AK
You said "The Palestinians are worse off than the Jews in Germany. 6 million died, over a short time frame, but the palestinians have been systematically slaughtered over the last 60years."

Really!! Since 1920 approx 7700 'terrorists' and 'others' have died at the hands of your Zionists incl 5100+ since Sept 2000 [ intifadas]
These are Pally figures!
How you can compare the two I do not know - must have a twisted mathematical mind.Get your facts right!

And yes I agree with you that it would be better if any ambassador spoke fluently the language of his posting but not everyone is a Bibi Netanyahu.
Also he should have walked out when the interviewer minimalised rocket attacks.
Not even worth talking to such a person.

simple question to ask pro zionists / pro israeli :

'is the deliberate targetting of civilians terrorism?'

Good day to all in the news room

I would like to applaud Channel 4 for literally going where no journalist has gone before.

Your article was to the point concise, and what that 4 minute interview has done for us as a muslim community is unbelievable.

And to applaud Mr Snow, for bringing to the table the other sides concerns and showing just how unjust the media is towards Islam.

Once again thank you very very much!!!

A very happy citizen

ammaad:

You wrote: "It would be intresting to see what the American Intercontinental University in London thinks of Prof G. Aldermans writing/opinions. Anyone care to ask the university if such a clearly racist remark is a policy of the University? Where is that Asghar Bukhari? I am sure he would ask"

Can you please explain why you believe that my remarks are "racist?"

Professor Geoffrey Alderman

I do not understand why Israelis (i.e governments)are still occupying Palestine. Why can't Israelis give the Palestianins part of their land back insted of dividing it into two parts, creating havoc amongst the poor Palestinains and anihilating them slowly. Have the Israelis not taken enough!SOLUTION.STOP KILLING THE PALESTINIANS AND MAY BE THEY'LL CONSIDER ISRAELIS AS HUMANS.

Dear Mr Snow and Ch4
thanks...
I am here in UK since a month, i can say none of the medias here did mention anything about the daily israeli crimes in Palestine..with more than 50 civilians were killed during may be 2 weeks !!!!
seeing such an interview on ch4 is encourging..and extra-ordinary.
many thanks..with all support

Mr.SNow,

God bless you,

Thank you chanel 4, and Mr. Snow

Mr. Snow,

Please continue the great work of asking the tough relevent questions which other media dare not touch. Hats off to Channel4 for bringing out the truth.

I wish if we had half an anchor like Mr. Snow in the US media.

Rahim, California, USA

Lamia

The Hamas government (if one can call it that) is, explicitly, dedicated to the complete eradication of the Jewish state. Israel has long ago accepted the legitimacy of one Palestinian state (Jordan, which was part of Mandate Palestine) and is prepared to accept the legitimacy of a second ("Palestine"). This is the official policy of the elected government of Israel.

My reference to the famous Dambusters raid was to make the point that the destruction of power stations is a legitimate act of self-defence. Hopefully (as I said in my original contribution to this discussion), the destruction of the power station in Gaza will impede the production of rockets aimed at Israel. And incidentally, these rockets are far from being 'toys.'

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:
Mr Marc Davis

HOw kind of you to 'highlight' these points in history to us.

What I don't understand is how we all get branded together. Very classist of you. However you chose not to see when Muslims are outraged and not just about cartoons.

We had peace marches and rallies with most of the inexcusable things that have happened in the name of Islam.
Research Islam before you condemn it

Put plainly, Islam wouldn't be the fastest growing religion if we were doing some thing wrong.

Islam means peace. Get with the programme sir before you make completely ignorant statements about a nation you don't know.

God Forbid, I am not threatening you, but open your eyes.........

Prof Alderman: with your reference to the dambusters again... Didn't Zvi Ravner say they bombed the powerstation to "stop the terrorists from being able to smuggle the captured soldier out"? (not a direct quote - but that was his "excuse")

Do you seriously suggest this is a sane man's logic? Does anyone believe this is the reason behind taking out the last non-israeli controlled powerstation? Sounds like so much WMD to me...

I am not muslim, I am not christian, I am not jew. I have nothing against any of these "groups" of people, but i do think we should treat people in a fair manner - and in the case of war at the very least follow the Geneva convention. Surely, from a people like the jews - that have been prosecuted more than perhaps any other - this should come even more natural? Is it ok for the bullied to become the bully?

Kind regards,

Harald

Harald

I have no difficulty in believing that the destruction of the power station in Gaza has made it more difficult for the terrorists holding the Israeli corporal to move him around [of course as a prisoner of war the Red Cross should already have been given access to him; have they?].

Yesterday a rocket launched from Gaza hit a school in Ashkelon. Some toy, eh?

Geoffrey

God bless israel the ones who know how to treat muslims. Get them out of the country they are a bunch of trouble makers.

Prof Alderman - would you care to give us your brilliant insight into how turning the lights off will make it any more difficult for them to move the soldier around?

And I am sure they wouldn't mind giving the Red Cross access to him once Israel start following the Geneva Convention themselves...

You must be a sick individual indeed to condone what the Israeli are doing to the Palestinian people. Only religious fanatics can condone what they are doing, and I fear those religious fanatics more than I do Muslim fanatics, as they have far more (American) firepower...

Someone once said: you shouldn't accept so readily the injustice that doesn't affect yourself.

If we had all lived by that the atrocities committed against the Jews during the second world war might have been avoided...and we would hopefully have seen a more compassionate way of dealing with Palestine. If so, I for one am convinced there wouldn't have been any recruits for the terrorists we see today. On either side.

Ben Gurion himself admitted he would become a suicide bomber if he was born a Palestinian...

Dr Barrett,

That would be logical, if the people holding the Israeli soldier were the _only_ one with a torch/generator... But hey, if they keep shooting blindly at anything that stands out/makes a noise they will get them eventually right? Probably shooting the Israeli soldier in the process. But that's ok, because they can always blame the terrorists...

Thank you also for your pedantic correction on my knowledge of history, I am sure you will agree it doesn’t change the fact that he said he would become a suicide-bomber if treated the same way… Doesn’t that tell you anything?

And what kind of “doctor” condones the treatment of the Palestinians? Oh yes, I forgot… You have a shining example in Dr Josef Mengele – I am sure you and him would have gotten along just fine...

To Harald Haugan
So far I have been contributing in a polite manner but here I make an exception on behalf of all Jews whereever they may be:

To liken me to Dr Mengele shows you up to being an antisemitic s******g incapable of understanding anything in your tiny mind.

Again I repeat that Ben Gurion never said what you claimed he said because there were no suicide bombers in his day.

For your info our hospitals are staffed by excellent arab doctors and full of arab patients receiving excellent care.I also have arab citizens whom I am proud to call BROTHER.

Just to provide a fact ---
it was Israeli ex-PM Ehud Barak who said that if he was born Palestinian he might have joined a terrorist organization.
He did not say he would become a body-bomber!

Thanks channel4 and Mr. Jon Snow for the bold step of criticising the terrorist policies of the Isreali government against innocent Palestinians. This is indeed a rare change in the policy of the western media, which is highly partisan against the Muslims.

There is much hue and cry in the west and "USrael" over the election of Hamas in Palestine. Hamas is a legitimately elected government exactly in the same way as it is and should be done in any democracy. But there is not even a symbolic opposition when Isrealis elect one hardliner party after the other. Double Standards: is the true face of the so called liberal west.

If the western media is really free and impartial, it must come out of the cocoon of the Jewish lobby and show to the world the true facts. While the 'Clash of Civilisation' is at its peak, it is only hoped that the western media will learn a lesson and the "Superb inerview" may prove the tip an iceberg.

Khurshid Iqbal

Sir,
This is a very couragoues gesture of channel 4 and Mr. Jon Snow to support Palestinians by being nearly for the first time fair and not biasd against them, at a time when all medias are justifying the crimes committed by Israelis. To tell the truth, we are happy because we reached desperation to being the nation and the religion which should be justified. Therefore, I'm so thankful and craving for more steps supporting the people sufferring in Palestine by the powerful weapon of media..

"it was Israeli ex-PM Ehud Barak who said that if he was born Palestinian he might have joined a terrorist organization.
He did not say he would become a body-bomber"
I am sorry if my source was wrong on the name, and - at the risk of sounding pedantic: the difference between a terrorist and a "body-bomber" is? Oh yes, blowing up a school - at night-time - when nobody is there... Horrible people... Blowing up a family having a picnic on the beach is fine though - as long as you can get a _military_ enquiry saying - oh - the _military_ was not to blame...


"To liken me to Dr Mengele shows you up to being an antisemitic s******g incapable of understanding anything in your tiny mind."
The anti-semitic card... I was wondering when you would bring that up... No, i am not anti-semitic. If I won the lottery (or someone would be kind enough to fund it) the first thing I would do would be to set up a scheme whereby the "neo-nazi's" of my hometown in Norway (and anywhere else) would be sent in "white buses" (ask me if you want to know more, basically Red Cross buses sent from Norway to Germany after WW2 - I guess they felt guilty about condemning so many Jews to a dire destiny in Germany...) to the holocaust-memorials in Germany. What happened during World War II was very, very, _very_ wrong...but the rest of the world learned something from this... I have been beaten up by the neo-nazis in my hometown for taking a stand. I would do it again. (Fair enough, I had to ask for it... The Jews got it, and the Palestinians get it very much without having to ask...) I do not care what "colour", religion or belief you have. We are all one...

How can you not see the similarity - in principle - to the way the Nazi's treated the Jews during the second world war, and the way the Palestinians are treated by Israel today? Yes, the Nazi's did it on a grander scale in a very short period of time, but there is the same thing happening in Palestine today, albeit on a much longer timescale. No less in the number of people involved though...

I do not care about "race" or religion (I don't believe in "races" - or even "groups" of people, we are all _one people_...) That's the problem you have with me, because you can not use anti-semitism against me... Do I have a "thing" about how Israel is treating Palestinians? Yes I do. Same way I would have felt it if America had been pouring money and military hardware into Palestine to "control" the Israeli...

I care not what religion you are, because I have no need for one.

I would like to apologise for comparing you to Mengele...I don't believe the comparison was wrong, but I understand you find it offensive. I was hoping you would understand how you would be viewed by someone who looked at it from an "outside" point of view. As you are treating people with the same point of view... They are "sub-human" and "all the same"... Your statements about torches and generators told me you think of _all_ Palestinians as terrorists...or that the whole area as populated by a few Palestinians in terrorist groups,

no kids, no women, no elderly people...

The latter of those who all need a(t least one) powerstation...

With kind regards,

Harald Haugan

it was awonderful interview by john snow. he is really a brave man we wish him all the best and hope that he will use his powerfull position for all the oppressed people in the world. Chanel 4 is also worth to be praised for it. it may take a lead from BBC through promoting such just issues.

did not read yet

Mr. Snow,

God bless you and protect you.

Please continue the great work and be a man.

John

I commend Jon Snow for asking the questions that many reporters want to ask but are afraid to do so.

thank you very much for finally standing up on behalf of the Palestinian people and not letting fear stand in the way of sharing the truth with the world.

Please keep it up and I pray that no harm is done to you because of the truth you shared.

Mary

i would like to thank chanel 4 and thank jon snow evan more for what he has done by bringing the real truth about the attack on gaza to our eyes, the whole world has turned a blind eye to these facts and when somebody does the right thing rather then support him we try to silence him. This inhumane act on behalf of the whole world is a shame and shows how immoral we have become all help should be given to jon snow and he should be given more coverage.

God bless you Mr. John Snow for your honesty and courage and thank you channel 4 for your imparitial stand.

It was good to see a fair presenter with balanced questions on TV. There was no sensible answer from Ambassador side. He put himself a funny situation.

Three cheers for you, Mr. Snow! It is high time these criminal psychopaths were brought to account for what they have been doing for a century to the population in Palestine. These invaders, who have been calling themselves "Israelis" since 1948, have taken every effort Palestinians have made to defend themselves as an invitation to clobber them with overwhelming force. These outrages must be stopped.

What an excellent interview, well done Jon Snow ….wish we had more people like you in the media so that the public are informed about truth….so once again well done and stand firm to the truth and you will prevail !!!!!!

Dear Mr. Jon snow, believe me the Israeli government are the real terrorists, I live in Jerusalem, and i know them very much, and what happened now in Gaza strip is a few percent of the fact. About killing civilians please try to visit this link to know what they did in Nablus before few days, we have 10000 men in Israeli prisons, we are missing them, we will do any thing to let them join the childhood of their Childs. <a href="http://community.webshots.com/myphotos?action=viewAllPhotos&albumID=552011189&security=LBNblF">Thanks any way. the link</a>

A light of truth for a change! Thank you Mr. Snow and Channel 4 for the courage to stand by the truth. Thank you for the program. Truth has its supporters even thousands of miles away.

MM
USA, California

Thank you Mr Snow, you have given people who campaign against injustice a voice in the media. You have also challenged extremists, on both sides of the argument.

May God Bless you & your family

A Fellow British Muslim Citizen

I commend you on your courage to face the might of the israel lobby that has engulfed the Western World.
Please refer to:
http://johnmearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0040.pdf

I have no idea why on earth anyone should be upset at the excellent Jon Snow interview with the Israeli ambassador. Unless they are utterly unreasonable people or simply mad Zionists who cannot see what Israel does is WRONG. Period.
Jon Snow should be applauded not criticised. I am not a Muslim (I mention this to show that I am not subject to any bias as regards religion) and for several years it must be completely clear to anyone with a brain that Israel is a very nasty racist apartheid state that regularly gets away with the most ghastly atrocities. The Palestinians particularly in Gaza are packed in to what is basically an open prison and are constantly subjected to bombardments illegal internments etc etc. The whole place is controlled by Israel. Sea air and land. Jon Snow was simply telling the truth - and pointing out what many people, Muslim or non Muslim thnk anyway.. He was quite correct to mention that Israel is heavily armed, there was no need to take out the power station and all the other relevant things he said. I am just sorry that the interview didn't go on longer. Well done Channel 4 - it's about time we heard people tell it as it is.....................and Jon Snow did just that. Keep up the good work.
Yours Sincerely
Roddy Segrave

Jon Snow should run in the parlimentary election.. and Should become the priminister of Great Britain..Way to Jon Snow.. U make us all proud Duas

I did not see the article but I could guess the content from the comments of people about it. Israel with the help of the U.S. has committed the most terrorist acts ever. Also the U.S. called on Israel when they invaded Iraq so they can help in committing more terrorist acts in the name of democracy. I have no problem with Israel having a country but I have a problem with the way they behave. They kill, rape, and destroy in the name of democracy. I applaud john snow for standing up because it seems that everyone is scared to speak against israel. People don't think much about this but if you look at the media and the movies you will always find jews being mentioned as good people arabs as bad and terrorists. Israel can have nuclear weapons so can the U.S. but not Iran, North korea, or the Arabs. Israel can do anything and the American veto will help them get away with it. The Arabs or anyone else is at American's mercy when it comes to veto power. People let's wake up and bring back democracy and decency to the world.

The collective punishment that the Palestinians endure on a daily basis is simply despicable. I just listened to the interview by Jon Snow and it was probably the first time I have heard a media member so strongly question an Israeli official. It is certainly about time someone is put on the griddle and made to answer the questions. The official did so quite pathetically by the way.

I read some of the posts on this board and see some very good questions directed at this Dr. Alderman but the person with no answers instead chooses to say "[t]he Palestinian elected a government dedicated to the eradication of the Jewish state. The Palestinian electorate must now accept the consequences of that decision". So a democratically elected government entitles other governments who see them as a hindrance to reoccupy their land and kill their people? It was not the government that captured the soldier despite what you might wish to believe. This was simply a pretext used by the occupier to do the extraordinary amount of damage to the infrastructure being built and to the people of the land.

I believe in a two state solution but a situation where one side can so easily humiliate the other is not one that will work.

Well I can't fully support this fully if as I have not seen the interview. But well done to Snow for conducting something which has gotten so much attention.

Has anybody ever thought about what cost - humanitarian, psychological, ethical, moral and financial - the ENTIRE world is paying so that Israel can hang on to a few km of land? The entire world's psyche is in a state of anger and depression, governments are diverting BILLIONS of dollars from social programs towards security issues arising from international frustration with the Palestinian's suffering, entire peoples and religions are being pitted against each other, and for what? Is there gold or oil in the occupied territories that we dont know about? Why do I in Canada, have to suffer with fear every day because of a few acres of land? 1000 years from now, will it all have been worth it?

"The whole world is suffering because of the occupation..."

Mr Snow,

It's not easy to tell the truth, you are taking the first steps, I hope that all the journalists will follow you in bringing the real story from both sides,
We all be asked in front off God, did you help you brothers and sisters on earth when they were suffering the injustice of this world.

CK

good work j . snow and tanks for all

Please sign this petition for the Palestinians:

http://www.palestinecampaign.org/petition.asp

To stop starving the palestinian people!!!

In reply to Dr David Barrett i would say tell it to the thousands that will sign the petition inshallah...you are clearly blinded by the truth...

that should have read 'blind to the truth'

Please read Johann Hari's piece on the continuing tragedy of 1.4 million abandoned human beings in Gaza in today's Independent. 60% of them are children. By the way the piece is by a non-Muslim woman!
-------------------
Johann Hari: "The real reason why Israel is using such violence against the Palestinians in Gaza". The last three weeks have not been primarily about an Israeli soldier, a slew of rockets or Hamas Published: 10 July 2006 If you have never been there, it's hard to give a sense of the cramped claustrophobia of Gaza. It is a tiny patch of land squeezed between the sea and the local superpower, where 1.4 million people live locked in fear and never leave. I couldn't find anybody my age who had ever been beyond Gaza in the rotting refugee camps and concrete slabs of poverty that fill the Strip. They were stuck in their little sand-and-concrete hole, smaller than the Isle of Wight, dreaming angry dreams of Jerusalem; the rest of the world seems to them unimaginably far away. Their world begins and ends with the beaches to one side - now unusable because of Israeli attacks - and the tanks to the other.Article Length: 1100 words (approx.)

Dear Dr David Barrett:i dont need to read your long winded explaination of why Israel is killing Palestinians because the facts are simple. To defend Palestinians and condemn Israel you need to use few words but funny how when you try and justify what Israel are doing you need pages if not volumes of excuses because none are really good enough to justify what they are doing.

So listening carefully Israel are the occupier who are now persecuting the Palestinian people whom they stole the land from and now they are collectively punishing the Palestinians in an act which is illegal under the Geneva Conventions. Why??? You may ask - well the Palestinians committed the biggest crime ever - they democratically elected a government…..OH NO WELL FOR THAT THEY MUST OBVIOUSLY PAY!!!! You talk about terrorism… funny how everyone uses that these days to justify anything in the world…the biggest terrorists in the world today are George W Bush and Israel collectively oh and I nearly forgot our own democratically elected terrorist Mr. Blair!!!

A state can protect it self by any means you say DR then why do you condemn Hamas for protecting their people from the occupier.

Israel’s crimes are clear for all to see as are the actions of Hamas let the people decide who they believe is the oppressor and occupier...even with what little true media coverage there actually is i think you will find most people even some Jews and Israelis themseleves believe Israel to be the oppressor of the Palestinian people...

Its true what they say the bullied do become the bullies look at the jewish.

Shazia
Thank you for a degree of moderation

Yes ,people everywhere have to make up their own minds but I would like to remind you that Israel permits journalists into Gaza and 'west bank'> witness Pallywood. Honest coverage there should be but many film crews want cover page & this has led to distorted/ untruthful coverage in many instances.
And yes there are Jews here and abroad who see it the way you see it.Whilst we may not like them we do not jail/ punish them - whereas I cannot say the same for the other side.

Dear All,The following letter in today's Guardian carrying the names of so many concerned British citizens should be more than enough to highlight the ongoing tragedy in Gaza and other Occupied Territories. Messers Barrett and Alderman, please read it carefully as there is an urgent need to rise above proclivities to hoist the banner of human kindness! How long we will hide beind wordsmithery and smokescreen? Billions of people around the world know what is going on: colonisation, brutalisation, expulsions, denoigration and all with an accompanying self-denial, which is not helping Israel and its propoents at all. Tragedy is a tragedy and let us get out of this cul-de-sac. Your arguments are too far wide and overstretched. Just listen to humanity all around!________________________________________"End this punishment of the Palestinians", Wednesday July 12, 2006, The Guardian
The Israeli government's behaviour at present is to be condemned (Report, July 8). The failure of our government to speak out against Israel's oppression of the Palestinian population is complicit with those actions of the EU, the US and Israel. It is, in effect, a coordinated attempt to collectively punish the Palestinian people for electing a government of which they disapprove. Having lectured the people of the Middle East about democracy for decades, Europe and the US are seeking to trample upon the democratic rights of the Palestinian people. The suspension of aid by the EU and the US, the withholding of Palestinian taxes by Israel, and Israel's illegal blockade are crimes against the Palestinian people. They are creating a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza and the West Bank and have emboldened Israel to sustain an unrelenting bomb and missile barrage, which regularly kills innocent children and other noncombatants in violation of the fourth Geneva convention which protects civilians under occupation. Israel has bombed the only power station in Gaza, destroying electricity and water supplies to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, and forcing tens of thousands to flee from their homes. These are crimes against humanity. Israel has now kidnapped a quarter of the parliament elected by the Palestinians, and half of its democratically elected government. They join thousands of other Palestinians illegally kidnapped or imprisoned, including over 300 children. We call upon the British government: 1) To immediately work for the restoration of EU aid to the Palestinian Authority; 2) to demand that Israel ends its blockade and pass on taxes; 3) to demand that Israel cease all military action in the occupied territories; 4) to demand the release of all elected Palestinian officials and the instigation of a programme for the release of all prisoners held in violation of international law; 5) to apply pressure through the UN for Israel to respect the UN resolutions requiring its withdrawal from the territories it illegally occupied in 1967; 6) to end Britain's arms trade with Israel until it abides by international law.Ken LivingstoneMayor of LondonJohn PilgerBetty HunterPalestine Solidarity CampaignLord Ian GilmourProf Moshe MachoverProf Avi ShlaimDaniel MachoverJuliet StevensonBella FreudAhdaf SoueifPeter Kilfoyle MPClare Short MPDerek Wyatt MPHelen Goodman MPJeremy Corbyn MPPaul Flynn MPFrank Cook MPJohn Austin MPHywel Williams MPLinda Riordan MPPeter Soulsby MPHarry Cohen MPMike Hancock MPMike Wood MPKarma NabulsiKeith SonnetUNISON Deputy General SecretaryRev. Cannon Garth HewittRev. Stephen SizerMajed Al Zeer Andrew De La TourTony BennVictoria BrittainAndy BainPresident TSSA*Baljeet GhaleNUT Senior Vice-President*Baroness Jenny TongeBruce KentCaryl ChurchillCharles AspreyCorin RedgraveDr. Ghada KarmiGargi BhattacharyyaVice-President University and College Union (personal capacity)Prof Anthony ZahlanProf Hilary RoseProf Steven Rose Ruqayyah CollectorNUS National Black Students OfficerSacha CraddockSteve KempNUM General SecretarySusan Wooldridge

So soliders who refuse to fight the unjust casue of Israel dont get punished... i have heard of many solider refusing to fight in Gaza been locked and i call that punishment.

Whilst the contents of the letter that you have posted is quite clearly one sided -- there being no mention of the events that gave rise to Israels need to deal with Hamas ie the kidnapping of a soldier from Israeli soil and the murder of another 2 in similar circumstances --- I pay no attention to it because the signatories are well known consistent left wing anti Israel personalities who have never had a good word for Israel in any matter whatsoever in the past.
They all fall into a specific category.
The fact that Rude Red Len is the first makes me puke!

In response to Geoffrey Alderman's comment that Zionists paid Muslim landowners for land 100 years ago. This is complete rubbish, there is no single part of Israel that was not previously occupied by Palestinians, the majority of whom were driven from their homes at gunpoint. The myth of "a land without people for a people without land" has been swallowed whole by the west. Perhaps Mr Alderman can explain why the IDF raided the Palestinian Land Registry and confiscated computerised and hardcopy deeds and records of land ownership.

Mr Snow, well done you have shown your great skills in speaking the truth yet again!

These are the interviews that every person should here it should NOT stop here, we need more similar interviews in future!

Salim
Grow up
What you are saying is TOTAL RUBBISH

Under Ottoman law many land parcels were sold to Jewish people and registered accordingly and the deeds are extant today .
PLR was raided to obtain , I suspect,all documents related to fraudulent transfers carried out by a PLO management

This shows how utter pathetic zionists are, the White & non White haters live in their own delusional world. No actual proof of ANY land being "sold" to the mass murdering settlers. The actual inhabitants still have the original keys & deeds. So why should the real people of the Middle East "sell" their land to a genocidal terrorist? It reminds me of Alistair Campbell who said "I say it is true, therfore it is true".

Edward

I am afraid the proofs do exist. Jewish trusts - such as the Jewish National Fund - collected moneys and bought back land for Jewish resettlement from the mainly Muslim landowners, who were only too happy to sell it since Palestine a century ago was an economic backwater.

I have been reading some of the comments by Israel apologists saying basically that everything is OK and fine as Palestinians sold the land to Jews. This is an old and extremely tired and invalid chestnut. As an example if many British people sold vast tracts of land to Germans in the home counties does that then give the Germans the right to set up their own state in the home counties,ethnically cleanse all the English that are still there treat them as a second class citizen because they are English and then when the native English fight back treat them like dogs, humiliate them at checkpoints, murder them etc. etc.?????? The Palestinian people have been treated like dogs by the Israelis for over 60
years. And they had lived there for thousands even protecting Jews from persecution on occasions. And whereas there may have been acts and deeds by individual Israelis that transcend this the actual state of Israel is a blot on the Holy Land. There needs to be FAR MORE UNDERSTANDING AND JUSTICE from the so called "international community" as to the rights of the Palestinians. Understanding too that this was THEIR LAND (I'm not just talking about Gaza and the West Bank either. I mean the whole of what is now Israel.) The UN resolutions that Israel is in violation of (I heard today one of the their spokesmen brazenly quoting UN resolutions as something to be imposed on Hisbollah)should be imposed on it by force. Then it would start to realise it is not so invincible and maybe it might behave with some common humanity. It would not be able continue with its shameful behaviour and continue to act with impunity. The situation in Palestine is a shameful and open wound that scars the whole human race. There ARE decent Israelis of course. People who are ashamed of what their goverment does in the name of self defence. However the whole country need to be brought to book. It is a racist and apartheid state that thinks it is above the law and at last needs to be held to account. What country in the world flouts international law so brazenly? Have they no shame?

Roddy No ...it is not the same thing .You are revising/distorting historical truth.
Jews and ARABS were part & parcel of the Ottoman Empire . WW1 was fought and the Turks lost the land to the Brits and French. A new name was given to ALL that land on both sides of River Jordan = Palestine .
Britain & France decided to reapportion> Iraq+Syria+ Jordan as you know it and Mandate Palestine [ west of R. Jordan]
During all this period people bought and sold land & property like elsewhwere;all registered initially acc Ottoman law and then British law combined. ALL JEWS & ARABS were classified as Palestinians. Jews came and went as did arabs.
Came 1947 the preformer to UN , General Assembly UPHELD the right of Partition of west side of Mandated British Palestine -- part for the Jews & the rest to indigenous arabs .Both to be automomic . But the arabs esp those living BEYOND these borders declared war .They LOST . The result in 1948 was a State of Israel in different borders than originally considered.

LOSERS LOSE!

I believe your version Roddy this DR just distorts the truth - we all know israel is a land grabbing terrorist state!!!!

Roddy

Israel - whose re-establishment was sanctioned by the UN - is in violation of no UN resolution that it is required to obey. Not one. Your reference to Germans in England is way off track, because the German people already have a country of their own, called Germany. We Jews are entitled to exercise national self-determination: Israel is the Jewish nation state. And if you're going to talk about ethnic cleansing, let's not forget that the most extensive ethnic-cleanisng operation anywhere since 1945 has been the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab lands.

The "establishment" of israel was under non binding rules of the UN, so it is illegal not only in name nature & FACT. Nobody with any ability to think for themselves believes Semtic Jews were "ethnically cleansed" out of Arab lands, it just takes a decent search engine & "the Jews of Iraq" put into the search bar to dis-procve this & many other Anti Semitic lies being spread by the masters of lies & disinformation. The 're' in establishment s such a joke that only the most retarded would believe otherwise. So where is the loyalty for zionists - to israel NOT the WEST.

I'm actually surprised that despite all the brutal, lethal , unhuman actions done by Isreal, through out the past 60 years, the last of which is in Lebanon and still ongoing, there are still people like barret coming out and defending it!
Its weird how little we humans are and how confined are we to our baisis!
I've learned this lesson since long: Human race can be really dissapointing, and the more days pass by, the stronger my conviction is.

Well done Mr. Snow, at least u managed to speak out...

Fado

No Dr i think your mistaken the world would be a better place without israel...a terrorist state!!!!

Dear Dr. i try so hard to read your emails without falling asleep but all i read is blah blah blah more lies blah blah blah more lies... just becasue i am not an expert on the ins and outs of the conflict does not mean i do not have eyes to see what the terrorist state of israel is doing wake up...the rest of the world is begining to!!!

by the way DR you may want to visit:

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/2356/34/

to see what the lovely children of isreal are giving as presents to the Palestiains then you will see not only are israelis sick terrorists they are now brining up the next genration or arab killing terrorists then you talk of peace...

Dr Barrett,

I won't comment further than to remind you of one thing, Israel was occupying Lebanon for 18 years, with far superior fire-power, and an intelligence service that consistently ranks as the best in the world, it failed to stop Hezbollah... How on earth do you expect the nascent democracy of ill-equipped Lebanon to accomplish this task suddenly? Especially seeing the treatment the Israelis offer to the Palestinians in their refugee camps? Do you think flying planes creating sonic booms over their heads every hour during the night is going to suppress any resistance? Or is it perhaps more likely to increase it? How about using common sense, and seeing that what Israel is comitting is no less than state-sponsored terrorism - the very worst kind, aimed at women, the elderly and children...

Perhaps you should also seek a different opinion before you so readily believe the lies you have been fed since birth. I was fed the same lies and believed them for too long

It is sad that the entire 5,000-year tradition of moral values held high by Jews despite a continuum of sufferings is going down the tube thanks to Israeli policies. It is not just the poor Palestinians, Lebanese and other Arabs besides the millions of American and European who have been paying a huge price with their blood and money, it is also the Jewish humanism itself which is becoming a major casualty. Live and let others live is not hard to understand. Perhaps we all read history at one stage or the other but many of us refuse to learn from it. More than Arabs and Muslims, the North Atlantic public opinion will eventually turn against Israeli policies as these people are fed up and not going to be silent bystanders with poor children and innocent civilians being killed in droves by the xenophobes. Israel is sadly and stubbornly alienating its last source of support and even the Republican Right like Patrick Buchannan are seriously criticising Israeli control over the US foreign policies. The Harvard, Chicago and other high brow academics are coming out in the open as the golden hen is getting angry and may turn away... Rather than coming hard on younger British Muslims and joking about their naivette, Messers Barrett and Alderman will be well advised to stand for justice and also what is good for your community in the long run. People like me who have spent lifetime buidling bridges are hurt and people like you do dismay us. Stand up for a better world and raise the flag of dissent against brutalisation of people including the mutilation of your own history! In his last piece following the 1967 war, the historian Isaac Deutscher, whose family had perished in the Nazi camps, had candidly observed about his adopted country, Israel: "To justify or condone Israel's wars against the Arabs is to render Israel a very bad service indeed and harm its own long-term interest."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Regime change in Lebanon", Thursday, July 20, 2006 The Guardian No one can seriously believe that the reason for Israel's destruction of Lebanon is the release of the two Israeli soldiers taken prisoner by Hizbullah. This is a convenient excuse for the achievement of much deeper political and military aims. Israeli policy has always been implemented through either manufacturing such pretexts by provocative acts or waiting for them to present themselves before launching its massive retaliation.The leading Israeli peace activist, Uri Avnery, has argued this week that Israel's real aim is to affect regime change in Lebanon. Just as in its invasion of Lebanon in 1982, the real purpose is to install a puppet government sub-servient to Israel and the US.As in 1982, according to Avnery, Israel's attack has been planned in coordination with Washington. This suggests a second reason for Israel's offensive: it is the opening salvo in a US/Israeli attack on Iran. For this to succeed, Hizbullah, which is supported by Tehran, must first be neutralised if it is not to spearhead a campaign in defence of Iran throughout the Arab world. Also, attacking Hizbullah provides a route leading, through escalation, to Tehran.Third, Israel wants revenge for the defeat inflicted by Hizbullah in 2000 when it forced the most powerful army in the region to withdraw from southern Lebanon. The destruction of both Hizbullah and Hamas would, in turn, facilitate the fulfilment by Israel of its main long-term objective: the de-Arabisation of Palestine, completing the unfinished business of 1948 when two-thirds of the Palestinian people were ethnically cleansed.How many more Arabs must die before the British government abandons its sickening complicity with Israeli war crimes?Sabby SagallLondon

As far as history goes I have told you NO lies
There may be a slight variance as to how you interpret the picture but what I wrote is true

There is no place for Hezbollah or Hamas in a civilised world

There is room for a people who would now like to alienate themselves from their brethren in Jordan & if needs be it will be in a small state , which should not need any military [ cf San Marino, Monaco]and there is also room for a state home[ like Vatican in Rome] in a Jerusalem which rightfully is Israels capital.Not all states have a sea outlet eg Austria but i am sure Israel is willing to help Gaza develop peacefully so long as it has no further pretensions on the land of Israel .

And please dont quote Avneri at me - old hat & ignored

You, and your like-minded friends, are quick to recite UN-resolutions when it suits you... What has the UN been saying about this particular action Israel is undertaking right now?

Oh, and what were the Israelis thinking of the UN when they attacked one of their compounds in 1996, killing 106 Lebanese, more than half of them _children_. I guess from your comments you think of them as future terrorists, so good riddance. Right? Ask yourself _why_ do people become terrorists... Could it possibly be because they are treated like dirt by a far superior power?

This year the US are giving US $2.26 Billion to Israel in _military_ support alone, that includes fighter planes like the F16s that shot at a convoy fleeing a township (by order from the Israelis), killing at least _20_ people, many of them women and children. This is hardly reported, but the fact that _2_ children where killed in Nazareth is headline-news... I do think the 2 children in Nazareth is a tragedy - any unnecessary death is to me - but can we get things in perspective here? More than 300 people have been killed in Lebanon - on the Israeli side there was 29 dead this morning (haven't checked the news yet...). Is that restraint?

When I was a sunday-school teacher my bible told me to "turn the other cheek"...

Thank you Ifti Malik...

Dr Barrett - just quickly... "There is room for a people who would now like to alienate themselves from their brethren in Jordan & if needs be it will be in a small state , which should not need any military [ cf San Marino, Monaco]"

They do not need a military because they do not have a US-funded terrorist-state next door...

As usual Shazia you are way off mark

All that is written is " waiting for Nasrallah from Israel" & signed with a kids name

Nothing about Pallys or other children
Stop creating anti Jewish sentiment because of a childs prank
The Pallys who organise summer camps for young children introducing them to then idea of being body bombers are far more dangerous!

Harald
I have already explained which state is guilty of state terrorism by definition
Turn a blind eye and you are entitled to your opinion
However it will have no bearing on the outcome.Hezbollah will not even listen to the arab countries because it is an Iran /Syria axis.And you are blind to this?

Israel pulled out of Gaza - juderein!!
But Hamas /PLO Govt saw fit to continue firing missiles into Israel proper whe there were NO Jews in Gaza & you expect no response. It was just late in coming and Hamas triggered it.
Give back the soldier and Events in Gaza will cease within an hour - I guarantee

Ifti
Thank you for your erudite contribution.
I think you exaggerate somewhat .The present crisis was triggered by the other side and yet you find no room to criticise them.
You also do not even criticise the general arab behaviour in Iraq or Darfur or elsewhere where islamics are running rife and killing far more people than Israel may have killed in Lebanon.
Your argument lacks balance .
Historian Isaac Deutscher is an unusual character. He approved of Israel 1948 but never lived here- chose England . He was an atheist but proud to have been born Jewish. In practice a marxist /commy & an expert on Soviet affairs. Your comment about him is true but on what did he base it . Israeli author OZ had similar thoughts.

But 1967 gave the Jewish people Jerusalem and liberated it to Jews & Xians for thr first time in centuries; that overwhelmed all

Shazia
When you fall asleep then it is obvious you cannot discern the truth from a dream.
You provoke me and I give you info
You choose to ignore because you cannot face the fact that maybe I am telling the truth!

"Dr" Barrett,

Glad to see you could come up with no credible excuse for any of my comments, your cop-out was well worth it.

Thank you...

Harald

Turning the other cheek may well be a Christian maxim. It certainly isn't a Jewish one, Thank God.

Good for you Ifi. I agree with all your points. For me it is about the way this ghastly country (I'm not talking about all of its inhabitants - some of them ARE obviously OK although I reckon the whole country is in a state of denial of their history) purports to be respectable when it is one of the nastiest most murderous states in the world. As you say indulged by the USA. I am personally really angry at the way our government does not call a spade a spade and say that what is happening is UNACCEPTABLE. Period. It sickens me too that the so called left wing Shimon Peres says there is no one to negotiate with. The BBC should have given him hell. Because if there is a will there's a way. And I do NOT accept that this couldn't have been handled in a sensible measured way without this ghastly loss of life and destruction. I also find it rather sickening that the news channels give SO much coverage to the British evacuees. For God's sake get your prioriites right here. They are out of the country now. What about the poor suffering Lebanese people. I am going to write to or ring the BBC actually. I think it's pretty damn sick. Channel 4 were MUCH better when I watched a couple of days ago. They gave about the right percentage of time to this.

Dear Dr Barret, I have read some of your comments and my own comments aa follows. Why ON EARTH should Ifti have to make reference to Darfur when the basic facts are that Israel is the topic here? And anyway two wrongs do NOT make a right. This is a red herring and used by many Jews I have met to get one off the point. Because someone breaks into a home and steals five thousand pounds worth of goods does that then make the crime of the burglar who steals two thousand five hundred pounds worth of goods OK?? You do ALL JEWS a disservice when you defend the indefensible. And put red herrings about like this. It muddies the water and has no relevance except in as much as it reflects your own paranoia that all these criticisms are anti semitic. Maybe some people are but there are many people like myself who do not like to see injustice. I do not justify suicide bombing in any way. But the Palestinians have had by FAR AND AWAY the monopoly of suffering. Look at the statistics (3 to 1 deaths Palestinian to Israeli and 5 to 1 in the case of children). Also what about the fact that (in Gaza particularly which is the most densely populated place on the planet) they are subjugated constantly and treated like dogs. There is NO COUNTER ARGUMENT to this. It is well documented. If you deny that then you really are "in denial" In my opinion you and others who defend Israel INCREASE anti semitism. I have the greatest respect for Jews and Israelis who are brave enough to dissent. Some of the most vociferous people re justice for Palestine have been Jews in fact. Why can you not join their number ? What is the problem here??
Personally speaking I find it REVOLTING (and I do have Jewish friends and acquaintances most of whom I like very much - my ex and mother of my children is Jewish) that Israel with all its history of the Haganah Irgun, Stern Gange etc purports to be some sort of "respectable" country. There are many things wrong with this country but the army and airforce did not bomb and shell Belfast to rubble because there were IRA terrorists there. That shows Britain to be measured and relatively speaking therefore has claim to be a respectable state. The "respectable" Peres interviewed by the BBC (they should have given him hell - I am very disappointed with Gavin Esler who I generally like) was sickening. This man showed NO REMORSE (a charming characteristic of Israelis for the most part - apart from the refuseniks and the other decent people there who have a sense of justice) and said there is no one to negotiate with. It is like the "emperors new clothes" when Israel claims justification for this ghastly carnage. Have you no worries about the death destruction and injury being caused? Why do you defend it? Is it because perhaps you are addicted to the idea that everyone is antisemitic and supporting Israel in these circumstances is some sort of dysfunctional way of dealing with your own feelings of paranoia about being Jewish? I'm not trying to be personally abusive here. There are a lot of Jews I know who ARE like this. There is a knee jerk response to any criticism of Israel. Because it triggers deep feelings inside them about Pogroms, Holocaust etc. Again I am not trying to be abusive here. But your comments make me very angry. They smack of a Jewish person who has not looked at his own "Jewishness" and seen how it has marred his moral slant on others suffering. Would you be Ok with it if your children were being bombed. Where has your human empathy gone???

Mr Barrett...

I am sorry that you see me as a virus, but I am glad Roddy managed to get through to you... Perhaps if I had told you my ex was Jewish you would have felt differently about me as well (no, really, she was...)

I do actually very much endorse the "war on terrorism", but what I would like to do is is:

a) redefine terrorism
b) fight terrorism with the opposite of terrorism...

Terrorism isn't an inferior (military) state defending itself against a far superior (military) state. It's a far superior (military) state using (it's far superior) military force against a much (militarily) weaker state...

The opposite of terrorism is peace. So you destroy the terrorist state using peaceful means... You inform of your point of view, rather than force your own point of view down someones throat with military might...

Yes, the Hizbollah were wrong in kidnapping the two Israeli soldiers...but how the Israelis responded to this...would you say it was "in line with" what had happened? More then 150 Lebanese women and children - and i am using your (and Mr Aldermans) beloved UN figures here... I am sorry if I am not as "erudite" as Roddy... I don't think it requires a "profound" knowledge. Ordinary reading of news-sources available should be enough. Surely you would want to defend your point of view against a different point of view?

If you can defend your point of view?

Enjoy your weekend, I hope it will be more enjoyable than mine...

The good Dr seems to like writing long/boring essays to try and proove his point..... isnt it strange how LIARS always try and duck and dive with their answers inorder to avoid the TRUTH. This is the norm i'm afraid when it comes to these zionist types. The zionists have become so used to lying that it has become part of their psyche. Note, however, how the zionists in Israel constantly try and perfect this art...the friendly looking zionist spokewoman, for example, with her pleasent looks and american accent helps no end when your trying to explain away the days indiscriminate killing to an european audience.

Now, how does that old saying go....ah yes...you can fool some of the people some of the time but.....

I think you get the idea.

Harald
I was not accusing you of being a virus- the program played up!

Terrorism does need definition and to date even the UN has no definitive definition of it.
And it wasn't just the kidnapping that started the balagan of the year but also the continuous kassams in the north & south since Israel pulled out of Gaza.And they do kill and injure.

Both kidnappings were done without any legit claim of an Israeli misdoing - and recent events point to Syria & esp Iran giving an OK to Hez to open up to take pressure of Iran.

How should Israel have reacted ? All I know I think some other countries would have been more severe in their respponse & I think you can guess which . I do not condone violence for its own sake - I too as mentioned before have arab friends- but there is adequate proof that the Leb military has actively aided Hez and has deliberately ignored UN requests to remove Hez from Israeli border .
It was only a matter of time before Hez got carried away by its own rhetoric -- and even the arabs around seem to agree.

Well we are now into the end game and as civilians we shall have to wait and see .Israel has asked, for 3rd time, all 'innocents' to distance themselves from Hez.

Welcome to the real world

Shazia I shall watch the video when I have the time
HOWEVER its opening is TOTALLY incorrect in 2 spheres

FIRST: in 1967 It should have said that Israel was attacked in a ccodinated planned assault by the 3 arab states. The arabs LOST and Israel entered the areas from where the attacks had been launched.
Similar to Britain ang Germany WW2

SECONDLY: the film deliberately misquotes the UN resolution; the word THE is ABSENT fron English copies of this resolution. Blame the French for causing further problems

These are facts and NOT lies

ie the film LIES

get a life sado don’t you have anything better to do like getting a life... if I was as sad as you I would search the net and find quotes and people who back my side of the story but i know people have eyes - they can see what is happening I don’t need words the pictures on MPAC of the dead Lebanese children bombed out of their car say it all ...instead I will use my time to do more constructive things than argue with you!!!

Dear Doctor Barret, you sent me a polite email the other day and I've no desire to get into the dirt with you. However reproducing the message of some Christian Lebanese hardly invalidates most of the messages of support of Lebanon on this website or somehow "justifies" the massacre of Lebanese civilians. How can you possibly justify violence on this scale?? To hell with these people even if they did say that. And IF it's true (and I wonder if it is - I live in a very Arabic area of London and ALL the Lebanese I know, Christians, Sunnis, Mannonites and Druze are hearbroken about what is happening to their country)then I could draw the analogy that there were many selfish Iraqi emigres who supported the invasion of Iraq (maybe there are some that still do I don't know but I doubt it - I know a lot of Iraqi Shia and even they, who were persecuted under Saddam, freely admit it is a worse mess than it was under Saddam) I'm not privy to the various diverse reasons why people are "on the side of" Lebanon in all this. But apart from a few genuinely anti semitic people I would suggest that the vast majority (including myself) see Israel (the state not all the people although that is difficult to separate I admit)as the spoilt brat of America which is shamelessly indulged by its keeper - one law for Israel, one law for the rest of the world. The wall was declared illegal and yet it continued, the settlements declared illegal they continue etc etc. There is a subliminal (and unconscious mostly) suspicion of Muslims in general. This is also of course true in this country and I know from speaking to some Israelis that that is very strongly the case in Israel too. Judaism in the West is seen as closer to Christianity than it is to Islam and consequently due to ignorance, deliberate self interest and lack of a sense of justice the situation of the occupation and subjugation of the original inhabitants of Palestine who now live in fraction of what used to be Palestine is allowed to continue. Many people aren't stupid and see this as injustice and double standards. It quite clearly is. And I don't know how in all conscience you can defend it. People are FED UP with it. They don't understand why a country like Israel which purports to be respectable should continue to be allowed to violate international law and build settlements in areas where the people are already suffering enormously. A few Quassams (I'm not justifying any violence but I can CERTAINLY understand it) do NOT EQUAL tanks warplanes and state of the art heavy ordnance. Surely this is not a difficult thing to understand. If you see a little kid being beaten up by a huge big kid on the playground then hopefully if you have any integrity, you do something about it. Particulaly when that kid is allowed to get away with it by the teachers. In this case Bush Blair and a few others being the teachers. I understand that Israelis may be scared of suicide bombs. And so the wall was built (I can see the logic although do not agree with it - particularly as it took valuable land from the Palestinians at the same time) But do you guys really have your heads SO buried in the sand that you think that they can continue to forget the rest of the world and live in this self imposed ghetto for much longer?? When you are continuing to wreak appalling suffering on the Palestinians. Why are many in Gaza radicalised?? More and more people have become aware of just how much the Palestinians are suffering. Now the Lebanese. It is on our TV screens constantly. The demolition of homes the disproportionate attacks on Gaza and the West Bank and now Lebanon. Also the shooting and killing of foreign journalists and peace activists. I would like to think that Jews and Arabs could live in peace (they did long before Zionism reared its head) but it must be clear to anyone with a brain that it is Israel who must give the concessions. YOU ARE THE OCCUPIERS and it is you therefore that the onus falls upon. <P.S. If you want to unite a previously disunited country then the best thing to do is to bomb it. The Generals of the IDF and it seems most of the Israeli population seem incapable of grasping this most basic and obvious fact. I am gratified that one of our foreign ministers in Lebanon has today broken ranks with Blair and criticised the way Israel has inflicted unnecessary damage and suffering on the poor Lebanese civilians.

No lies; the courageous are now beginning to speak out
Notice hoe the pallys have been forgotten because of Hez!


The Hyenas and Maggots Who Feed Off Our World
~BY YOUSSEF IBRAHIM - THE NY SUN
July 21, 2006
URL: http://www.nysun.com/article/36457

Beneath the anguished sounds of destruction in the Levant, a new Lebanon is being born.

This Lebanon will be freed from the savage hordes of Hezbollah jihadists, snatched from the jaws of Syrian and Iranian hyenas, and liberated at last from Palestinian Arab maggots who for 50 years masqueraded as freedom fighters and poisoned everything they touched.

As we watch this magnificent tragedy unfold amid so much blood, tears, guts, rockets, and smoke, we, the long silenced Arab majority, must insist that it bring down the curtain on the barbarians in our midst.

Given the enormous stakes, it is imperative that the collective will of Israel, America, France — indeed, all of Europe — and the many Arab nations quietly backing the fight does not weaken before the job is done.

It was Lebanon's misfortune to be the experimental theater where jihadists first spread mayhem back in the 1980s, killing American and French soldiers, initiating the long, dark nightmares of hostages and terror, and placing Lebanon under Syria's boot for 30 years.

It is only fair, then, that in the past week Lebanon has witnessed the return of American Marines, 22 years after their flight, and of the Israeli army, back this time to liberate, not occupy. By all indications, these troops are laboring hand in hand with Arabs who want to roll back the march of Islamic fundamentalism and its kingdom of darkness.

We should view the events now unfolding not as a local battle for Lebanon but as a larger fight for the future of the entire Arab nation.

For two decades, this nation of 350 million has been hijacked by a bizarre collection of Neanderthals, pseudo-revolutionaries, illiterate imams, and "Mad Max"-style Palestinian Arab terrorists of every hue, all united only in their desire to pillage in the name of a religion they expropriated.

Their manifest failure, which we hope will be delivered in resounding military terms, should come as a hard knock on the head of any Arab drifters. Cynics and cowards are already shouting "Enough!" but we know it will only be enough when the madman of Hezbollah, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, and all the other turbaned, bearded bats of the night are found, nailed down, and killed, and the whole Hezbollah movement in Lebanon — as well as Hamas and the other freelance Palestinian Arab factions — is convincingly discredited.

These groups are already running on empty. A glance at any Arab paper or news network other than the fundamentalist Al-Jazeera is enough to gauge the torrent of abuse on both Hamas and Hezbollah by Arab pundits, raining on the jihadists' parade in commentary as stinging as a cobra's bite.They have been accused of juvenile behavior, corruption, and incompetence, and blamed for dragging Arabs into pirate wars and bringing pain and misery to their people.

The first phase of their path to disgrace is complete: Sheik Nasrallah and various Hamas leaders have joined the growing club of Arab terrorist fugitives in hiding, sneaking their videotapes to Al-Jazeera like Osama bin Laden.

Gone are the days when they could find hideouts among their patrons. Unless the Israeli campaign in Lebanon collapses, Sheik Nasrallah will have to be smuggled into Iran, where he will be kept under wraps.

By far the biggest surprise in this debacle has been Saudi Arabia and other oil-rich Gulf Arab states' unstinting denunciation of their would-be fundamentalist minions.

One after another, senior Saudi princes — as well as Egyptian, Jordanian, Kuwaiti, Bahraini, and other Arab decision-makers — have made it clear they will not support Hezbollah. Many of them have described it openly as Iran's Shiite agent in a Muslim Sunni Arab world.

While they have been critical of Israel's destruction of Lebanon, none have championed Hezbollah's unilateral rush to war. Nor have they objected to Israel's determination to rout Hezbollah — or, for that matter, Israel's hounding of Hamas.

Indeed, both jihadist groups have been described repeatedly as an embarrassment to Muslim governance. Behind it all is the Arab world's growing impatience with the concept of "eternal struggle" and the heavy price paid after September 11, 2001. Today's Arab world is a much younger and more prosperous place, one that is eager for modernization and globalization. This Arab world has graduated from juvenile pursuits of Palestinian Arab causes, dreams of Arab nationalism, and hopes for a Muslim super-nation.

And guess who these Arabs are now following into liberation from their ghosts? Israel.

Dear Mr Barrett, and Mr Alderman...

I am sorry we got so derailed "defending" either side here, while hundreds of innocent people are being killed every day, in what can only be called a travesty of a war - seen from either side.

It's a moot point arguing "who started it", that's a 5-year-olds way of arguing, and i am truly sorry i got caught up in that.

Innocent people are being killed on both sides, and i am sure you agree innocent people shouldn't die. No matter what the conflict.

Now, like my mum used to say "who will be the most grown up and stop the fighting".


Peace. Now. Everywhere. Not just Lebanon.

Please feel free to continue your futile bickering, it's nothing but the pathetic defence of the murder of innnocent women and children, and I will not take part any more. How it makes you happy is beyond me.

The US (and Israel) complains that Syria is financing the Hez... And the US gave what country US$2.21 billion in military support this year? For P's sake... grow the f up. who is benefitting from this money?


who?


Instead of waging war, let's wage a big, massive "hug-athon". Let's stop people killing people, and let's have people hugging people.

Call me childish, I personally think what you are doing (and i was happily taking part in) is far more childish...



But i just stopped.

This is getting silly. Rather like the katushas and attacks by F16s. Although perhaps silly isn't the word as a lot of people are dying and suffering. Mostly in Lebanon. I certainly never said Israel was occupying Lebanon or Gaza. There's not really any point giving you reasons why Israel was attacked in Lebanon and why Israel was attacked by Qassams outside Gaza. You can guess what my reasons will be. Simplistically speaking the first prisoners in Lebanon, the second occupation (no not occupation in Gaza but occupation and subjugation of the whole Palestine population per se - Israel also controls Gaza which you may not call occupation but it amounts to the same thing)but there are many reasons. If you have a dispute with your neighbour you try and sort it out. If there had been a will there would have been a way. What about the Lebanese prisoners? 2 soldiers taken prisoner do not require an invasion. Equally bad worse inflicting dreadful collective punishment on Gaza for that one soldier. I hear according to Gideon Levy who is a voice crying in the wilderness it seems, that his father was dead against the way Israel handled that one. And said that this was NOT the way to get his son back. As regards justification of the heavy ordnance on Lebanon JUST as valid an argument could be made that "Israel started it" (I've heard that one so many times as an excuse) just in case you're going to say that it was Hisbollah that took the prisoners. I bet my bottom dollar there would have been no Katushas if Israel had been prepared to negotiate a prisoner exchange. Listen I don't want anyone to die and that includes Israelis. I simply want justice in this world. Peace and harmony Fair dos for the Palestinians who have been living under occupation for 59 or so years. They have as much right as you do
(some would argue more as it was they that were ethnically cleansed in 48) to live in dignity and peace. When your country starts treating them with justice i.e no more heavy ordnance, illegal settlements, checkpoints,bulldozing of homes, general humiliations etc. etc. you will get the peace you want. No more suicide bombings no more Qassams. Q.E.D. I will be the first to support you when the Palestinians really DO get justice (whatever that means but it's a long way from it now)
You won't knock out Hisbollah and Hamas in Lebanon/Gaza. Both Israel and the US must be very very naive if they think that will happen.

Harald [ & Roddy]
No argument with your sentiments but we personally cannot STOP any war .

We [ collective]did not initiate it. All we can do is debate the possible causes and results which none of us likes.I do not want any more people killed BUT I am enough of an amateur historian to see that wishful thinking is out of its league; that war is a regular response , by the east & west;all kinds of people.
And I am sure that if you & your family were attacked , you and your country would respond into that cycle which you obviously detest .
It is amazing that the one authority set up to assist the world - UN- has caused more problems than solving them; because the people within are pre-biased wanting power & recognition.Now that is a shame.

Even tho I am sitting only 100 km from the northern border in a way I am as detached as you are. I just hear the planes rumbling overhead.

Hugging is great . Sadat did exactly that and his own countryman assassinated him. Is not there something inate which denies recognition of Israel by the arabs?!
Best wishes

AN EXCELLENT POIECE OF WORK.
NICE TO SEE ONE JOURNALIST ASKING THE OBVIOUS QUESTIONS.
To the likes of Dr Barret.
To get anywhere one has to recognise a problem(ie:Palestanian/Israeli conflict). Have done so look at the causes (ie;creation of the state of Israel, seizure of land, ..... all done with the Un 5 memmber states with no palestanian involvement).
Then look at the inaction or neutralisation of the UN by the 5 permanent members.
The use of the Veto by America making the UN A Farse( No democracy here, world held to ransom by 5 countries).
Then look at the history, briefly,
1-The Vilations of all THE UN RESOLUTIONS BY ISREAL(it comes top for this awarard).
2-The ethnically cleansing of Palestanians Villages 418 upto 1950.
3- Seizure of land.
4-Making of the indigenous population homeless by immigrants from europe and america.
5-Failure of 50 yearts of oppression.
6-No land, homes, compensation, rights, no water, no electricity, continual boimbing of anythinf civic tos top progress.....Yes sir Isreal can be truly proud.
7-Unethical reporting where journalist are shot at in the westy bank.
8-The daily murder of Children by Sniper fire( pinpoint again).
9-Failure to listen to demonstrations of 5 intifidas wheh men, women and children were shopt at with live ammuniation for demonstrations or throwing dangerous rocks(pinpoint again).
10-Violations of Human rights for 50 yaers and any acts of Decency.


I COOULD GO ON AND ON.

If one has an IQ GREATER THAN 1.

Its obvious this is an unequal war, the might of the 5 Most Powerful army in the world against a few thousand individuals.

All the Katusha's, home made missiles and AK47 ARE NO COMPARISON FOR 5 APACHE GUNSHIPS.

THE INEQUAL CONDEMNATION AND REPORTING OF THE SAGA.

ANY HAMAS/HIZBOLLAH ACTION IS TERRORIST/ABHORENT BUT ANY ISREALI ACTION IS A MISTAKE/REGRETFUL.

CALL IT WHAT IT IS AN ACT OF TERRORISM AND GENOCIDE.

THATS WHAT IT WOULD BE CALLED IF ANY COUNTRY DID APART FROM THE USA OR ISRAEL.

STOP BLAMMING HAMAS/HIZBOLLAH THEY ARE A PRODUCT OF ISRAELS ACTIONS.

SO CONDEMN ANY DEATH BE IT ARAB/JEW WITH THE SAME VIGOUR.

BE HONEST AND COMPENSATE PALESTANIANS FOR LAND SEIZED, HUMAN AND PROPRTY LOSS TO DATE( JEWS ARE STILL BEING COMPENSATED FOR WW2).

ONE WOULD THINK HAVING SUFFERED ISREAL WOULD LEARN BUT IT IS DOING ONTO THE PALESTANINS WHAT THE NAZI'S DID TO THEM.

IN THE END ALLAH/GOD WILL PAY YOU BACK FOR YOUR ACTION, AS AN EXAMPLE SEE WHAT HAPPENED TO ARIEL SHARON THE BUTCHER OF CHANTILLA (NOW HE WAS A TERRORIST). MAY ALLAH FORGIVE HIM.

MIGHT IS NOT RIGHT.

THE MURDER IN QANA, UN STAFF AND ALL FAMILIES TO DATE IS A BLATANT VIOLATION OF ANY HUMAN DECENCY.

ESPECIALLY WHEN WE ARE TOLD ISRAELI ACTION IS PINPOINT, ACCURATE AND CONTROLLED.

PINPOINT AND CONTROLLED MEANS INTENT.

Dr? Prof? any other titles - these groups get titles for being obnoxious!

they call the abduction of 2 israeli soldiers kidnapping and warranted a berzerk response by israel. If that is morally justifiable to invade and destroy lebanon to go after the kidnappers then it should be infinitely morally justifiable to raze israel to the ground for the kidnapping of more than ten thousand of palestinian children.



or you think a dose of rationale, decency, honesty and fairness might help:

Ref: If Israel has the right to use force in self defence, so do its neighbours


The west appears to insist that only one side in the conflict is able to intervene militarily across borders. That will never be accepted
By Ahmad Samih Khalidi
07/18/06 "The Guardian"

What a lot of crap youDr & prof write. Go impress the shit tanks or some wacky Uk uni dying to get sponsored by the terrorist organisations.

Dear Dr. Barrett...

I have taken part in some pretty heated discussions online these past few weeks, and not even the most hardened zealots dared pick up the hot potato you just did...

The "video-footage" released by Israel allegedly showing Hezbollah shooting up rockets near the building was ripped apart on SKY NEWS - yes, SKY NEWS. And no respectable news-channel have presented your "8 hour gap" as anything but pure speculation. Could the reason be that it's the IDF that claims it didn't collapse until 8 hours later? Who's under suspicion? Oh, yes. IDF. You are quoting a right wing conspiracist blogger as "Non Jewish Source". The reason the Red Cross could not go to the stricken building earlier was because they were afraid of Israeli shelling - they have taken out at least 4 ambulances already - hitting point blank in the red cross on the roof.

I quote from your source: "A later photo of the bodies above, now under sheets. Again, no blood seeps through the sheets as one might expect from the crushing wounds of a building collapse"

How long does it take before Rigor Mortis and blood stops flowing? Would you say 8 hours would be sufficient time "DR" Barrett? That - if anything flies in the face of the "evidence" produced.


I am sorry I felt I had to come back, but your despicable attempt at distorting fact disgusts me. I will repeat what I said before "Have you no shame"!

I am shaking with anger at your stupidity...you should truly be ashamed of yourself...

Aron

If Palestinian Arabs are to be compensated for the loss of their lands due to the re-establishment of the Jewish state, then Jews must be compensated for their expulsion from Arab lands following that re-establishment. That expulsion constitutes the worst act of ethnic cleaning anywhere since World War II - does it not?

It strikes me that all this bickering gets nowhere. It's difficult not to get into I know. But giving so called reliable websites to reinforce one's point of view as a means of "proving" some point is a pretty ineffective way of dealing with it. Nobody on this site has probably been to Qana in the last three days (I know I haven't). So how do you prove things either way ? What is, though, beyond doubt (AND MORE TO THE POINT to my mind)is the fact that Israelis, as per usual, have used enormous fire power and many civilians have died. Again as usual and it seems to be a point of pride with Israelis that they hit back about twenty times harder than they are hit, the statistics tell the story. Whatever Hisbollah may have done (and I'm quite sure they're not perfect) a whole country has been decimated (furthermore many moderate Lebanon people will have now been alienated) and a huge quantity of people displaced and dispossessed. The Lebanese as far as I'm aware don't have the luxury of being able to drive off in their SUVS to the Lebanese equivalent of Tel Aviv or somewhere. Presumably to take refuge in an American made bomb shelter if it comes to that. I think the bottom line is that Israel considers its citizens to be far more important than other people in the human race. This was the problem of giving victims a state of their own. They have become the perpetrators. What person with eyes can deny that??? Why are a good proportion of Jews in the diapora so often pacifists and yet we have Israelis who at the drop of a hat are prepared to use modern weaponry on people with nothing much more than an RPG (if they're lucky). I'm talking about Gaza and the West Bank. Again look at the statistics before even Lebanon kicked off. 3 Palestinian deaths to 1 Israeli. It is simply NOT an acceptable justification for Israel to say that Hisbollah fire rockets from civilian areas and therefore that gives us the right to kill citizens (as surely they must if they fire on a civilian area). By what twisted logic is it "Hesbollah's fault"?? I do not justify any violence but maybe if the playing field was more even and Hisbollah had F16s and state of the art weaponry supplied by the US there would not be this debate. How dare Israel call itself "the only democracy in the Middle East" when it behaves like that. Even America (and I am not a fan) would have to answer questions. Clearly the citizens of Lebanon are suffering FAR MORE than the citizens of Israel. The two cannot be compared - the suffering is on a TOTALLY different scale. Yes Katushas may be able to kill. But that does NOT justify what this country does and has the brazen nerve to call it "self defence". I have tried to make conciliatory comments on this website before....... by saying that there are some decent Israelis (I still hold to that) but it is interesting isn't it that 80 per cent of Israelis are supporting this barbarity. If you take away the casualties from the IDF how many Israeli citizens have been killed? 30 is it? I would be ABSOLUTELY ASHAMED if my country the UK had managed to kill 750 citizens and furthermore made huge quantities of people homeless for the loss of thirty of my own citizens and a country in ruins. I would want the violence to stop and I would want answers from my government.Israelis go on and on about how various Arabic states want to wipe them off the map. But does it ever occur to them to take some resposibility for those extreme reactions on the part of the Arabs ?????

Thank you Roddy, from the bottom of my heart for putting it more eloquently and more to the point than I ever could have. That Mr Barrett decides to take you to issue with you highlights his irrationality better than I could have ever hoped for&

a whole country has been decimated BUT this is not so & thus and untruth.

With all due respect (which is dangerously close to zero at this point)  Before you make a ridiculous claim to the opposite, have a look at a map of the bombing campaigns being perpetrated by the Israelis you continue to voice your pathetic and inexcusable support for.

Now they are attacking Baalbek  in self-defence  please take a look at this map: http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/lgcolor/lbcolor.htm
(Baalbeck its called in this map). The Israelis told the Lebanese in Qana to please flee before the invasion (they did that in several villages, and then bombed the refugees as they left  is it me or does there seem to be a large number of high-ranking Hezbollah officers travelling in cars in southern Lebanon recently&even ambulances&). Israel said they wanted people to move past the Litani river&and theyd be safe. Check that map again if you want&but Baalbek is actually quite a fair bit beyond any reasonable range of the Lebanese rockets  if you are in Israel&

Rockets that have a bad habit of falling down in uninhabited areas anyway& 140 rockets sent in one day, and not one casualty from them&hurt. Yes, death. No. The Israeli claim of self-defense is a lie. (not so) Pure and simple.

Lets quickly re-run the numbers  before they count all the dead, and we have to revise the numbers again (I am using your numbers Mr Barrett, and please remember that). Lets go by the Israeli numbers, and not the Lebanese& 500 Lebanese plus counted dead, 50 Israeli plus dead (we count all of those, because you somehow think they are more worthwhile&) But of course, the Israeli got their revenge for the two kidnapped soldiers - that the Hizbollah wanted to trade for some of the 10.000 political prisoners Israel is holding&against every international law there is& I hope the Israeli are pleased from all the death and suffering they have let rain down on the region, and their own people, on the frankly revolting excuse of wanting to free two soldiers. It just does not hold water.

Again, Mr Barrett, I am glad to say I have no more respect for you, at all. I wish upon you and your family the peace and prosperity you wish upon the Arabs&

Now, for your link to websites with proof. Though I warn you, if you were unhappy before, chances are you will cry at the end of this&

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284546,00.html

The Rescue Worker:
"Note the 'rescue worker' in the foreground, complete with olive green military-style helmet and fluorescent jacket, with what appears to be a flack jacket underneath."

Anything but helmet, fluorescent jacket and indeed a flak-jacket would be folly considering what has been happening to civilians, ambulances and rescue workers  targeted by Israel&

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/lebanon-news-180706?opendocument

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/lebanon-news-240706?opendocument

That was the very same reason they did not call on the devastated building earlier in the night, as during the night their mission would be even more at risk&From Israeli shelling& I got that piece from Fox News on Sunday. Yes. Fox News. I do watch it. I try to get a balance&

It then shows a number of pictures, taken from different angles, by Reuters and the Associated Press, of the man holding the same child's body  but notes that there is a 4 hour time discrepancy between the time logs of the photographs.

This is speculation on my part, but educated speculation  unlike that which is brought forward in any of the blogs that are quoted as sources (are they all in Lebanon I wonder?)

Digital cameras have a clock in them. You set this clock and then I  for one  forget to change it when I travel abroad& (Seeing as these were international journalists, I would be more surprised if they were all taken at the same time&)

Let me give you a quick example, I recently visited San Francisco&

http://www.flickr.com/photos/norwegianmale/200282321/

On the right hand side you will find a link called more details (http://www.flickr.com/photo_exif.gne?id=200282321)  click on it, and you will find banal information such as Date and Time (Original): 2006:07:10 00:35:11
Meaning my photo was taken at 10th July 2006, at 00:35:11  or eleven minutes past midnight. I think, if you take a quick peek at that photo you will agree it wasnt exactly taken at midnight&

But now he is wearing his fluorescent jacket and helmet and has acquired latex gloves

I cant see the photos being discussed, but can you see his hands in the photo they were showing on the link you provided? Latex gloves are also see through and therefore can be hidden in plain view in a photo. I am a bit of a photo-buff I think youll agree with me if you check out the flickr-link I posted previously. I know photography, having taken photos since I was 7, though I may not hold a doctorate in it.


An American weblog, Confederate Yankee , whose logo is that "liberalism is a vegetative state," says that "in a picture that hits the wires just one hour (9:06 AM) after the building collapse, a Lebanese Red cross member sits with bodies already displaying significant rigor mortis. About.com puts the timing of maximum stiffness at about 12-24 hours after death. These people were supposed to have died within one hour of these photos being taken."

Let me pull something out of that& these people were supposed to have died within one hour of those photos being taken

Yes  if you believe the IDF&who claim the building mysteriously stood for 8 hours after the Israeli bombed it  and mysteriously nobody left it for those 8 hours, yet, I read one surviving victim claiming some of the children were still up, playing when they were hit by an Israeli missile and the building collapsed&

Can I also please just add to that, seeing as I was watching FOX NEWS on Sunday  the most trusted name in news  if youre American  and preferably jewish  and even their reporter was quite unusually negative of the atrocity the Israeli airforce had committed& I am sure they have changed their story by now, but that Sunday he was certainly not very cocky&at all& And even on SKY news Israeli Evidence of Hezbollah rockets being fired from behind that building was rather harshly critizised&
http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1229263-13,00.html
and I quote: But Sky's defence analyst Francis Tusa questioned the validity of the data because the position of the building doesn't match up.

Sky. News. Could it disprove your point any further Mr Barrett?

From that same gallery  your the roof and walls were still standing house&
http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1229263-3,00.html

What floor is that youre seeing?

What roof and what walls is still standing?

And about blood missing from cloths&used to wrap the dead hours after they died - this was a bed-sheet?
http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1229263-5,00.html

more roofs and walls standing:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1229263-6,00.html


This is not a left-wing radical website, but SKY NEWS, a website I would normally not quote, as they normally dont portray things the way I view them& They could have gone further in my eyes, but no thinking man can deny what he sees from these images&

If SKY NEWS see things the way they happened, why do you insist on seeking sources even further right-wing to corroborate your point of view? Is that me trying to twist the truth, or do you believe, perhaps, you could be doing the very thing you accused me of? Just possibly?

The missing 8 hours theory was put forward for your ilk. Those who refuse to see the horrible atrocities being committed in the name of peace and democracy, and who are, therefore, reluctant to check whether their view of the world is anywhere near the reality the rest of us live in.

I have spent too much time on this, and I dont expect you to change your point of view, I just hope I will prevent others from taking at face value what you purport as fact, without taking the least bit of time out to check whether you can verify that fact.

When Sky News prove you wrong Mr Barrett, I hope even you agree that you have indeed been led on.

By the people you are trying to protect.

By the people who are claiming to protect you.

From what?

Truth?

Mr Barrett,

I would also like to touch upon a few things you mentioned after my departure from this debate earlier – before your vile bile brought me back…

“No argument with your sentiments but we personally cannot STOP any war .

We [collective]did not initiate it. All we can do is debate the possible causes and results which none of us likes.I do not want any more people killed BUT I am enough of an amateur historian to see that wishful thinking is out of its league; that war is a regular response , by the east & west;all kinds of people.”

And you, Roddy, me, and everyone have a responsibility for changing that. Everyone has to change. It’s because the Israeli government claims to have more than 80+% support from their people that they continue to rain bombs on their neighbours, killing innocent in their hundreds, and wreaking sorrow and hardship on those left behind. I am guessing, and I could be wrong, but I would hazard a guess you are among those 80+%, are you not? What if you – at least – decided to NOT be among those 80+%, and EVERYONE else did it? You can call that “wishful thinking” all you want. We - as a human race - have to evolve to that level, or we will _all_ continue to suffer from it.

“And I am sure that if you & your family were attacked , you and your country would respond into that cycle which you obviously detest.”

I hope and believe Norway would react in kind to any attack on it’s population, and not sink to the murderous frenzy Israel has wreaked on the innocent civilians of Lebanon. I have said it before, and I say it again, when attacked Israel has a right to defend itself, but I continue to believe that Israel has been treating their arab neighbours in such a way that they have no choice. Hezbollah was created to drive Israel out of Lebanon, suicide bombing (I deplore them when they attack civilians) is the desperate act of someone pushed so far into a corner they have no other way to react. Cherie Blair said she had understanding for how Palestinian suicide bombers ; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2051372.stm

“It is amazing that the one authority set up to assist the world - UN- has caused more problems than solving them; because the people within are pre-biased wanting power & recognition.Now that is a shame.“

Unfortunately it’s not so “amazing” after all – as US and the UK have a veto on the security council, and they then have the guts to talk badly about them, saying they “have no teeth”. It’s because the US and the UK deny them the bite! Yes, that is a shame, and we should all be ashamed.

“Even tho I am sitting only 100 km from the northern border in a way I am as detached as you are. I just hear the planes rumbling overhead.”

I wish I could detach myself from the atrocities committed every day, every innocent death, Israeli, Arab, Jewish, Christian, Muslim – I do not care what side of any border they are, or who’s bombs are killing who. They all pain me deeply. Every Hezbollah soldier, and every Israeli soldiers death is a tragedy – but I lie the blame on the Israeli and American government for spending more than $2Billion a year on _military weapons_. What if that money was instead spent on building peace? And don’t tell me it can’t be done, it IS done every day in Israel, Jew and Arab living peacefully side by side. If Israel did not treat _all_ arabs with such obvious hate, distrust and with no respect for them as human beings. If they treated them as equals, and gave them a life worth living, how long do you think the radical groups would have a ready supply of suicide bombers?

“Hugging is great . Sadat did exactly that and his own countryman assassinated him. Is not there something inate which denies recognition of Israel by the arabs?!”

You seem to think that because a countryman killed Sadat for making peace with the Israelis there’s something inate which denies recognition of Israel by arabs…

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9511/rabin/umbrella/index.html

Then by your example, isn’t there equally something inate which denies recognition of arabs by the Israeli?



Harald

My first question on your “damning proof” Mr Barrett – is – again, your source…

“The Herald Sun is a newspaper in Melbourne, Australia, published by The Herald and Weekly Times Ltd, a subsidiary of News Corporation.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herald_Sun

I sincerely hope you know what News Corp is and what they stand for… They are unfortunately the biggest in the world, and they handily agree with whatever the American policy happens to be at that moment – and at times they set the tone for it…

Unfortunately, as shown in your article, are they too particular on giving sources – or even proof for their claims… “The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.”

“Another depicts the remnants of a Hezbollah Katyusha rocket in the middle of a residential block blown up in an Israeli air attack.”

Yes, _claims the newspaper_… and speaks of an “unnamed Melbourne man”… There’s a trustworthy source for you…that doesn’t want to name their journalists…

Yes, they show a group of men that could be from Lebanon. Or they could be from Israel, or Syria, or Iran, or Iraq or anywhere in the ME for that reason, and even their settings could be anywhere in ME. Will you please agree with me on that? Will you please also agree that there’s nothing in those images showing them to be Hezbollah “terrorists”? (only three countries in the world consider Hezbollah to be terrorists. No prize for guessing what three countries + a few puppet-states of the US – small islands that the US control…).

And yes, you would even be excused for thinking that there are “many” damning photos – as the slideshow shows you “3”… When in fact there are only 2…one of them is a close-up of the other…

Things like that makes me think seriously of the credibility of the story, and so should you…

I am not denying that Hezbollah may be using civilians as “shields”, as pointed out by Egeland (though I am not 100% sure he saw proof of this himself). But, as one lady said on BBC News: “

Surely the lives of the innocent should take precedence”


Harald

Israel may have left lebanon but why didnt they release the Lebanese prisoners held without charge or trial it is a massive guantanamo - the Lebanese government tried to raise the issue of prisoners with the US twice before the recent problems but the US did not want to know and so they have created the problems.

The say the Lebanese government should be running the country not Hizbulloh yet they refuse to listen to the Lebenese government when they raised these issues with the US - what they actually mean when they say the Lebanses should rule Lebanon is that either the US or Israel should be running Lebanon.

Cherry Blair is not a twit but an expert in the field of human rights and a very established and well known reputable barrister.

And perhaps the US would like to buy Hizbollah some Uniform so then the Isreal can stopping pretendiong they are trying to hit HIZ when in fact they are targeting feeling citizens of course that is when they are not busy targeting the UN. Independant reports by journalists confirnmed that only civiliians were carried out dead no guns no HIZ...sorry who is the terrorist here?

"BTW the Hez army does not have a uniform ; it is civilian loose dress"

How lucky for the propaganda-machine that is News Corp...

Some of the Hezbollah do wear uniform it seems, according to the Israelis who hijacked Manar TV Station yesterday... During the below described "hijack" apparently a photo of a "dead Hezbollah terrorist" was shown on the Hezbollah TV-station, and the photo used on BBC News this morning showed him in military uniform, with helmet, radio and everything...The photo of the dead soldier i can't find anymore (it was on news.bbc, but it seems to defy the general consensus somewhat...which is perhaps why that photo is now nowhere to be found...or it could be a fault on behalf of the BBC - though i find that hard to believe...they even warned against the graphic character of the picture...) It has even disappeared from Googles cache...


All that said, is that all you can find to disagree with me on in the two last messages to you Mr Barrett?


Harald

To Shazia
Although Israel holds thousands of what it calls security prisoners, most of those are Palestinian (see below). Following a major prisoner swap in early 2004, in which more than 400 prisoners were released to Hezbollah in exchange for a reservist colonel and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers, Israel now admits to holding just three Lebanese.

Chief among those is Samir Qantar, serving several life sentences for murder after attacking a civilian apartment block in Nahariya in 1979. A policeman, another man and his four-year-old daughter were killed. A baby girl was accidentally smothered by her mother as she hid in a cupboard.


While in prison, Samir Qantar has grown in popularity
Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has frequently called for Qantar's release, threatening to derail the 2004 deal when he was excluded from the list of prisoners. His name has once again been raised during the current crisis. Israel has refused to discuss releasing Qantar, often linking his status to its search for information about Ron Arad, an Israeli airman missing since being shot down over Lebanon in 1986.

Israel also holds an Israel man of Lebanese descent, Nissim Nasser, arrested in 2002 and convicted of spying for Hezbollah. The third Lebanese prisoner is a fighter called Yehia Skaff, Hezbollah MP Nawar al-Sahili told the BBC. Mr al-Sahili said that Israel also holds a fourth man, a fisherman called Ali Faratan.

Israel is also thought to be holding 25 Lebanese citizens of Palestinian origin, many for conventional criminal offences. Their release is NOT understood to be at the heart of the dispute with Hezbollah.

FOR THIS THEY STARTED A WAR!

So, Barrett,

"Following a major prisoner swap in early 2004, in which more than 400 prisoners were released to Hezbollah in exchange for a reservist colonel and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers,"

Would you agree with me that Israel set a standard by this action you just described, that Hezbollah could indeed be excused for thinking that if they kidnap Israeli soldiers there's a good chance they can get released some of the prisoners being held by Israel...

That, perhaps, they thought it somehow unreasonable for Israel to start a full-scale war killing hundreds of innocent Lebanese for two kidnapped Israeli soldiers (strangely enough for me: the people killed during the kidnap are seldom mentioned - if at all - only the two kidnapped soldiers are mentioned - as reason for killing hundreds of innocents)

And just quickly: "Israel now admits to holding just three Lebanese"

I believe the operative word is "admit"... I have - so far in my discussion with you - found no reason what so ever to believe a word the terrorist state of Israel utters in it's defense... I am not saying they _are_ holding any more than the three they admit to, but I find it just as likely they just won't admit to how many they really are holding...


But, based on the above, please, clarify for me Barret, who started what war? Hezbollah was acting in a pattern, Israel most certainly did not.

Your arguments, and those of the state of Israel, really doesn't seem to stand up to close scrutiny...

well done Harald Haugan i couldnt have said it better my self see Dr its not just me that believes Israel is a terrorist state.

GAME, SET AND MATCH. THIS FROM A JEWISH PROFESSOR LIVING IN ENGLAND. A Terrorist State like no Other

Oren Ben-Dor*

As its own citizens are being killed, Israel is, yet again, inflicting
death and destruction on Lebanon. It tries to portray this horror as
necessary for its self-defence. Indeed, the casual observer might regard
the rocket attacks on Israeli cities such as Haifa and my own home town,
Nahariya, as justifying this claim.

While states should defend their citizens, states which fail this duty
should be questioned and, if necessary, reconfigured. Israel is a state
which, instead of defending its citizens, puts all of them, Jews as well
as non-Jews, in danger.

What exactly is being defended by the violence in Gaze and Lebanon? Is
it the citizens of Israel or the nature of the Israeli state? I suggest
the latter. Israel's statehood is based on a fundamentally unjust
ideology which causes indignity and suffering for those who are
classified as non-Jewish by either a religious or ethnic test. To hide
this primordial immorality, Israel fosters an image of victimhood.
Provoking violence, consciously or unconsciously, against which one
must defend oneself is a key feature of the victim-mentality. By
perpetuating such a tragic cycle, Israel is a terrorist state like no
other.

Many who wish to hide the immorality of the Israeli state do so by
restricting attention to the horrors of the post-1967 occupation and
talking about a two-state solution, since endorsing a Palestinian state
implicitly endorses the ideology behind a Jewish one.

The very creation of Israel required an act of terror. In 1948,
following years of creeping dispossession coupled to total lack of
empathy, most of the non-Jewish indigenous people were ethnically
cleansed from the part of Palestine which became Israel. This action was
carefully planned. Without it, no state with a Jewish majority and
character would have been possible.

Since 1948, the "Israeli Arabs", those Palestinians who avoided
expulsion, have suffered continuous discrimination. Indeed, many have
been internally displaced, ostensibly for "security reasons", but really
to acquire their lands for Jews.

The ideology of the Jewish state means that all existing and future
descendants of the Jewish people worldwide have more rights in Palestine
than the indigenous Arabs. This makes Israel unique. What other state
decrees that many of its own citizens have less stake than millions of
potential immigrants? The colonization of Palestine is also unique:
discussion of this past injustice is inadmissable lest it expose the
current immoral statehood.

Israel is hailed as a paragon of democracy in the Middle East. How does
Israel get away with its ethnocratic statehood despite its moral
resemblance to apartheid-era South Africa? Surely Holocaust memory and
Jewish longing for Eretz Israel would not be sufficient to justify
ethnic cleansing and ethnocracy? To avoid the destabilisation that
would result from ethical inquiry, the Israeli state must hide the core
problem, by nourishing a victim mentality among Israeli Jews. Further,
the narrative of Jewish victimhood must be fostered around the world.
Many non-Israeli Jews, most of whom are perfectly happy as minorities in
their respective states, willingly volunteer as missionaries of this
narrative. When they are perceived as apologists for Israeli actions
that are justified in the Jewish name, and encounter hostility, this
reaction again helps to reinforce their victim narrative.

To sustain a victim mentality among its Jewish citizens, and to preserve
an impression of victimhood among outsiders, Israel must breed
conditions for violence. Whenever prospects of violence against it
subside, Israel must do its utmost to regenerate them: the myth that it
is a peace-seeking victim which has "no partner for peace" is a key
panel in the screen with which Israel hides its primordial and
continuing immorality.

Israel's successful campaign to silence criticism of its initial and
continuing dispossession of the indigenous Palestinians leaves the
latter no option but to resort to violent resistance. In the wake of
electing Hamas - the only party which, in the eyes of Palestinians, has
not yet given up their cause - the Palestinian population of Gaza and
the West Bank were subjected to an Israeli campaign of starvation,
humiliation and violence.
The insincere "withdrawal" from Gaza, and the subsequent blockade,
ensured a chronicle of violence which, so far, includes Palestinian
firing of Kasem rockets, the capture of an Israeli soldier and the
Israeli near re-occupation of Gaza. What we witness is more hatred,
more violence from Palestinians, more humiliation and collective
punishments from Israelis - all useful reinforcement for the Israeli
victim mentality and for the sacred cow status of Israeli statehood.

The truth is that there never could have been a partition of Palestine
by ethically acceptable means. Israel was created through terror and it
needs terror to cover-up its core immorality. Whenever there is a
glimmer of stability, the state orders a targeted assassination, such as
that in Sidon which preceded the current Lebanon crisis, knowing well
that this brings not security but more violence. Israel's unilateralism
and the cycle of violence nourish one another.

Amidst the violence and despite the conventional discourse which hides
the root of this violence, actuality calls upon us to think. The more
we silence its voice, the more violently actuality is sure to speak.
In Hebrew, the word ELEM (a stunned silence resulting from oppression or
shock) is etymologically linked to the word ALIMUT (violence).
Silence about the immoral core of Israeli statehood makes us all
complicit in breeding the terrorism that threatens a catastrophe which
could tear the world apart.



* Dr. Oren Ben-Dor grew up in Israel. He teaches the philosophy of
law
and political philosophy at the School of Law, University of
Southampton. okbendor@yahoo.com

READ PLEASE. IMPORTANT

PLEASE DONATE SOMETHING.
From: The News Update Team, Our World Our Say

Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 12:03 AM
Subject: URGENT ACTION LEBANON


Dear Friends

The outrage of the indiscrimate Israeli attack continues with Tony Blair's support. We are enormously grateful to everyone who has responded to our appeal yesterday to place adverts pressing Tony Blair to stop supporting the US and Israel. Tomorrow adverts will appear in The Times, The Telegraph, The Mirror and The Independent. We're planning more adverts over the weekend providing the money keeps coming in. If you have already responded thank you very much. If you haven't you can do so now at:http://www.securegiving.co.uk/donate_to/owos_donate.html

or if you want to donate via paypal go to http://www.owos.info/make_a_donation/donate.php and click the link at the bottom of the page.

It is simply appalling that Tony Blair is still backing Israel and the US position. As the BBC reports today, Israel regards this as a green light to continue the attack. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5219360.stm

We've copied below the original email we sent for your information. Thank you.

Yours



Tim, Rob, Simone, Ros, Mike
The Our World Our Say team



The original message we sent

"You are supposed to do something with the armed troops, you are not supposed to hurt the children and people who had nothing to do with all of this." Jan Egeland, UN emergency relief coordinator



Dear Friend

This is an emergency appeal from Our World Our Say. We are asking you to send a donation now to help us raise £20,000 to buy at least 10 adverts in the national press. These will give millions of people the opportunity to send messages to Tony Blair telling him he must stop supporting the Israeli attack and stop backing the US position. http://www.securegiving.co.uk/donate_to/owos_donate.html

Please give £25, £50, £100 or whatever you can afford.

With your help we can get adverts into the main papers over the next few days giving people details of how to fax, phone and email the Prime Minister's office – so that he is deluged with messages pressing him to end his support for the US and Israel. His actions are bringing shame on Britain in the world community and he needs to know exactly what the British people think about the illegal and immoral action in Lebanon.

Yet again Tony Blair is going against the will of the British people with his sycophantic support for George Bush. The US and Britain stand alone in backing the Israeli attack.

Israel is acting with impunity, raining down cluster bombs and phosphorus bombs – that burn people alive – as hundreds of thousands flee the attack. To add to the outrage Israel has killed four UN observers, supposedly safe in the knowledge that they have the support of the US and Britain.

We understand that Israel has the right to self defence against Hezbollah but this attack is totally disproportionate. For example, what possible justification can there be for striking minibuses carrying civilians out of besieged towns and villages - after Israel itself ordered the people to leave?

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Shazia, there is absolutely no reason to thank me, it came to me too late. As a thinking person I am only ashamed i didn't reach the only logical conclusion for too long, but I - like Barrett, believed media wouldn't try to delude me. I guess Barrett is right in that I am too naive in some respects. But, having learnt that lesson rather rudely, I see it as my duty to _try_ - however pathetically - to make people see through the haze that seems to cover everyones eyes today...

Again Roddy,

I have to admit, my first reaction to your story was "no"... That fit too well... (and the name...sorry Oren...). But yes, he does indeed seem to be working for The University of Southampton - http://www.law.soton.ac.uk/staff/ben-dor.htm - and the rest seems to be stacking up too...

more interesting reading:
http://badmatthew.blogspot.com/2005/05/oren-ben-dor-on-academic-boyvott-of.html


Kind regards,

Harald

"again Roddy"

A big heart-felt thank you.

I know you may not agree with me, or even wish to, but forgive me for thinking we are defending the same corner, though on different levels. I can but hope I will reach your level...

Keep up the great research and arguments... We can do pathetically little to change the world, but we can do that...

Even Blair seems to have had a bit of a re-think recently...http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2295604,00.html

Now, if only that had been his stance right from the start...

Dear Harold, Of course I agree with you. We seem to both seem to want the same thing. Which is peace in the world. Call me or you idealists but if I was just to accept that this was the way it was and that people fight and kill each other then I don't think I would have any reason to live. I think there are many people like us (forgive me for speaking for you) that do not accept that war is an inevitable thing. Or at least that if there is injustice then it is unpalatable. No offence to you Doctor Barrett but I think you see things in a more conventional old fashioned way. Personally I think that if we all tried to see each other's point of view then there WOULD be peace. As regards the Middle East I find it difficult not to get angry. There is SUCH a clear injustice going on there. I have heard this argument so many times. "Look at them dancing and celebrating in the street when a Jew is killed ; have you ever seen a Jew do that". Perhaps Jews don't blow up planes and do that. But so what?? What ON EARTH does this prove?? It's just another way of saying that somehow Jews are culturally more similar to the Western Europeans. It doesn't take from the injustice. I personally think that most of Israel is in denial. Do they see the appalling suffering in Gaza and the West Bank? Do they WANT to see it? No because it would shock them and they would have to look at their own part in it. Maybe look at how the state of Israel was formed?? I don't think Doctor Barret is going to change his mind about anything. I don't think he gets that the rest of the world sees the suffering of the Palestinians (and now Lebanese) and the vicious responses by Israel as offensive and something to be railed against. Simple as that. It's obvious that many Israelis see themselves as "in the right" about this. Many of them no doubt are decent people at heart. But I don't see Israelis trying to see the point of view of another people who have been dispossessed and humiliated for 60 years. Personally I cannot stand the hypocricsy of calling Palestinians "terrorists" when they themselves formed that state by acts of "terror". It's fine to get on your high horse and call others terrorists when you hold all the cards and 60 years have gone by. It's clear to ANYONE who has studied the situation (I'm certainly not an expert but know more than some) that Israel is a colonial power subjugating and enslaving the people who lived there for thousands of years. Very little of their original land is left (I'm sure you've seen the maps) and the Israelis want them to roll over and give in. When they don't and fight back they are called "terrorists". The trouble is Zionism makes no reference to human empathy and normal rules. It simply says that Jews have an inherent right to the promised land. And sod the consequences for anyone who was living there before. Doctor Barrett has said that there were no Palestinian people before. But even Moshe Dayan admitted that for every Israeli town or village there was once a Palestinian village or town. It's a shame Rabin isn't around. I reckon he really DID mean business. But you know what happened to him.

MPACUK permits the following inclusion

"Israel is acting with impunity, raining down cluster bombs and phosphorus bombs – that burn people alive – as hundreds of thousands flee the attack..."

Create the lie , perpetuate & spread it!
& then everyone will believe it.

This is unacceptable.
There is no proof - just a atatement from a lying arabs mouth to create sympathy
eg like we poisoned the wells in Gaza, or used depleted uranium in our bombs


Well if Roddy and Harald & Shazia are prepared to be quiet on this one - and you seem as tho you wish a fair solution to the problem

WHERE IS YOUR CONDEMNATION OF THIS ATROCIOUS STATEMENT?

MPACUK permits the following inclusion

"Israel is acting with impunity, raining down cluster bombs and phosphorus bombs – that burn people alive – as hundreds of thousands flee the attack..."

Create the lie , perpetuate & spread it!
& then everyone will believe it.

This is unacceptable.
There is no proof - just a atatement from a lying arabs mouth to create sympathy
eg like we poisoned the wells in Gaza, or used depleted uranium in our bombs


Well if Roddy and Harald & Shazia are prepared to be quiet on this one - and you seem as tho you wish a fair solution to the problem

WHERE IS YOUR CONDEMNATION OF THIS ATROCIOUS STATEMENT?

Actually Barrett,

Even the Israeli jury is still out on that one...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5213026.stm

Until such time as I see proof they haven't used these weapons "in civilian areas" - which is in clear violation of the Geneva Convention, why should i condemn it?

And to be fair:

"The Israeli military says their use is legal under international law"

That is an acceptance that they have used it in Lebanon, is it not? And as we all know they claim the Hezbollah are "hiding in civilian areas"...so...where else would they drop them? Just because it was an arab who who made the claim it doesn't mean it's untrue anymore than it would necessarily be a lie because a jew made it... That statement i'm afraid earned you even less bonus-points... You are ranting, and it's not attractive...

But, like I said, I want proof they _haven't_ used it in contradiction with international law before I will denounce the claim.

Your outrage is understandable, I believe you really think your government can do nothing wrong...


And Roddy, you can safely speak for me on this issue...in fact I think I would be wise to let you speak for me! ;-)


Kind regards,

Harald

To Harald
Whilst agreeing any loss of life should be unacceptable, news has now come thro that the number of deaths in Qana were as I originally posted and have been verified from Lebanese , HRW and RC sources.

Real figures had to come out because IRC agreed to investigate!

I don't know anything about phosphorus bombs or anything. I wasn't there first hand to see what happened. I prefer to keep out of this sort of stuff unless it's been corroborated by several sources. So I won't condemn it as I don't know if it's a lie or the truth. Even if it IS a lie then so what? An Arab told a lie. I'm sure Jews tell lies as well. The fact that both sides regularly tell lies so that they will look better in the eyes of the world is hardly surprising. Similarly yes even if Hisbollah use victims of some Israeli attacks as propaganda that does NOT take away from the fact that far far far FAR more Lebanese and Palestinian civilians ARE getting killed and injured than in Israel. Not only that but nearly half the country now is dispossessed and homeless (and yes I did hear about the Israeli civilian killed by a Katusha yesterday and I am NOT justifying that). I don't know what you will say to counter that but to me and Harald and I'm sure many many others (I hope I speak for Harald as well) it is really quite simple. One state armed to the teeth is treating the other state Palestine (what is left of it) like human garbage. The other state sometimes behaves in an uncivilised (whatever that word means) way by sending suicide bombers across the border. This state Israel gets sympathy from many in the world (rightly so as suicide bombing is abhorrent) but clearly doesn't want to redress any of the injustices that resulted in that action. You say you want peace but you're not prepared to give any concessions (please don't mention Gaza - as that was supposed to make you look good in the eyes of the world..............and anyway everything is still controlled by Israel) or look honestly at the way you oppress the Palestinians. I don't think anyone (in their right mind that is) is saying that violence is the right way to go. But if your state is SO civilised as most Israelis would have us believe in the West then why do they regularly bomb and rocket the most densely populated area of the world. Namely Gaza. Your country KNOWS what happens when you "take out" militants. And that is civilians get killed. "Israel regrets the loss of life". Not enough it seems as you still continue to do it. How would YOU feel if your countrymen (particularly children) were regularly killed, your land occupied and your people treated like garbage???? You and many Israelis have been fed some cooked up version of history which allows you to continue to justify your atrocities in the West Bank and Gaza. You came to Palestine and "made the desert bloom". So what that didn't give you the right to oppress a whole nation. The Palestians wanted 95 children and 313 women out of Israeli gaols. For the release of the soldier that they kidnapped. Your "highly civilised" country responded with state of the art rockets, F16s, tanks and helicopter gunships. Why the HELL do you think people are angry at Israel?? Do you think people are blind to what you do? Take away all the "Arab lies" and you are still left with a terrorist state of Israel. It is NOT propaganda to say that the IDF is like the worst of terrorists. Anyone with eyes can see what they do. The way they act is the same way a person might act if they had a dog they were mistreating and when occasionally that dog bit back it was whacked and whacked and whacked again. Where is your compassion? Where is your human empathy? You talk about Arabs as though they were subhuman ("an Arab lie") and you then complain of anti semitism. Do you wonder they celebrate when a Jew is killed? I probably would too if I lived in Gaza. Has it occurred to you that many of the Arabs view you as you YOURSELF view them. Dehumanisation on both sides. But it is Israel's predominant responsibility to give back land and stop behaving like it's done nothing wrong. "We won't negotiate with terrorists". A bit rich considering your country was founded on "terror". Now suddenly you are all very civilised. Well maybe Hisbollah and Hamas might not have become so "uncivilised" if Israel had not behaved the way it did.

Roddy

Aren't you aware that in 1921 Palestine was partitioned and the bulk [East of the Jordan River] given to the Arabs, with Jews prohibited from living there?

Geoffrey

[Another Jewish Professor living in England]

Alderman: with all due respect...

"Aren't you aware that in 1921 Palestine was partitioned and the bulk [East of the Jordan River] given to the Arabs, with Jews prohibited from living there?"

And Norway was under Danish occupation for 400 years, and Swedish for nearly 100... (we all now live in peace...because we don't hate eachother)

The world has come a long way since 1921, and the Americans have armed Israel to the teeth. So immediately you set about doing to your enemies did to you.

Are you saying Norway should now go and annex Sweden and Denmark, move them to a little corner of their respective countries, build a massive wall around them, and arrogantly state to the world "look at us, we are the victims, because they are fighting back"?

I hope I am getting my point across here...I get a little railed when confronted with a "professor" who uses events from 1921 as excuses for their own terrorist attacks in 2006...

harald

No I didn't know that. I mean about what happened in 1921. I'm certainly not an expert on the Middle East but I feel I know enough to realise that what is going on is a profound injustice. It would be more useful if instead of mentioning emotive stuff like that you would say how in any way that negates any argument that what the IDF is and has been doing in Palestine is abhorrent.

TO MR ALDERMAN,I agree with your sentiments as I said there has to be one rule.The same rule should apply whether it relates to Jew Or Arab, Both are After all Cousins.If Jews were forceably evicted which is unislamic, they should rightly be compensated or offered a return to their homes and properties.Equally Israel has to recognise its policies of the past and accept the rights of people it evicted forceably and by using unjust methods.I doubt whether it would as I dont see a desire for peace.Any attempt is met with the Claim of Hamas or Hizbollah being a terror organisation.Im afraid so must Israel.As I said look at Ariel Sharon , Golda Meir , Menachin Begin............also some of the acts of Terror to date, including the UN MURDERS, QANA.Putting it in simpler Terms, Israel commited a massive Burglary and not only did it steal the owner property but it went on to make the owner homeless and now continues with a policy of controlled killings.Well in some respect it stole the tried and tested method of the USA, steal Indian land and kill em all.Im afriad we havent learnt from History.There is enough land for both to live on, peacefully anfd justly.Isreal has to take the lead and stop being a bully.

"Israel is acting with impunity, raining down cluster bombs and phosphorus bombs – that burn people alive – as hundreds of thousands flee the attack..."

It is Israeli supporters that should condemn such actions not for me as pro-Palestine to condemn MPAC one of the few places not afraid by zionists complaining to tell the truth...i have stopped watching the BBC reports in fact have stopped watching bbc news if thats what they call it...

by the way i think you should all join the forum instead of using this method of communication it is much quicker and you will get more people in on the whole debate - there is even a debating section...

http://forum.mpacuk.org

Erm,
The Sly ones amongst you may have realised that people like Geof can be easily googled. One can then obtain all his background. Once this is done, its easy to deluge those professional bodies/institutions with complaints about his views. Citing this web page as evidence. Many professional bodies would not be happy at all.
I wouldn't do such a thing, because I am not vindictive. Just hoping the Geof will leave this thread and let it die. Thanks.
Sly_Person

@ Sly_person

I hope no one does that - or rather, does that to me, as I hope to visit the US again sometime, and I'd hate to end up in Guantamo... c",)

That'd be a scoop for them though, they're not only locking up _muslim_ terrorists...

Yikes...

Shazia I'm not quite sure why you're having a go at the BBC here. I think Jeremy Bowen's and Fergal Keane's reporting has been very very good actually. As somebody who is pro Palestine and anti the Israeli attacks on Lebanon I have been pleased with the BBC as has quite clearly shown the devastation wrought by the Israeli bombing attacks. I don't know why they haven't been on for a couple of days. (maybe that's because Zionists have been exerting pressure) but Jeremy Bowen and Fergal Keane's reporting has been excellent as I say. There's plenty wrong with the BBC but I don't think they can be accused of a pro Israel bias. They have certainly been reporting some of the atrocities committed by Israel quite well I feel.

I quoted Moshe Dayan from memory. And was not in any way trying to obfuscate the truth. I did not have the quote to hand. Nor did (and nor do I) have the context. Whatever Moshe Dayan may or may not have said (and whatever the context) the point I was making was that this was originally a place that Palestinians thought of as "home". Are you denying that ethnic cleansing took place? What about Deir Yassin? To mention but one example. It is not pretty what the Jews did to the Arabs in 48. I am sure you may have facts that you can throw at me that shows Arabs in a bad light as well. But the bottom line is that the Palestinians now have a small percentage of what was once Palestine. Understandably they are very angry. Partcularly as they are now subjugated by the same people who took their land.

Barrett,

"The 6 dead are not forgotten in any way altho I think the rest of the world has."

I was actually talking about the Israeli propagandists... There's never talk of going to war over those killed, only about the kidnapped soldiers...

"Once again what did you expect Israel to do?"

How about they act like the relative super-power they are in the region? With restraint and some thought as to how to avoid the deaths of innocent civilians?

(to add to Qana, "Thirteen people remain unaccounted for, and some Qana residents fear they are buried in the rubble, although recovery efforts have stopped, HRW says.") Let's hope they are just too scared to show themselves...


Human Rights Watch that you quoted earlier are accusing Israel (and it's worth to remember also Hezbollah!) of war-crimes...in relation to the cluster-bombs, the phosphor bombs and the deliberate targetting of civiliansI know Hezbollah are bad. I am not at all condoning their actions, but they do not have fighter-planes with precision-guided bombs and the afore-mentioned cluster and phosphor bombs... That is why i feel Israel should be showing restraint...

They are - by far - the strongest force.



And Barrett, what bigger self-goal could you possibly score?

"Equally, it is wicked to trade on the misery of past history in order to create new misery."

What is it you are doing here??? You are defending just that! And Alderman too...

Shazia,

Respectfully, I would have to agree with Roddy on that too... The BBC have actually improved a lot, and that is in the face of threats of cuts in funding from the government. I must say I admire them, though of course I can say I'd like them to go further, but really, seen in light of what they are being threatened with, their reporting is fairer than I ever saw it.

But, I am sure Barrett and Alderman are saying exactly the same from their point of view...

"Did you protest at Britain and US attacking Afghanistan & Iraq?"

Yes, I did. I found their reasoning just plain _wrong_... And seeing how things are unfolding now, I hate the feeling of "we told you so..."

I found the process of "deciding" to go to war sickening and a political farce... Saddam was no angel, but before the first Gulf War, more than 95% of children in Iraq had clean water... During the sanction between the two wars - as a direct result of the sanctions kept in place by the veto-ing right of the UK and the US, 5000 children died _every month_. That's around _half a million children_. When told this on 60 minutes - Madeleine Albright replied "we think the prize is worth it".

Half. A. Million. Innocent. Children.

In the name of

Freedom? Democracy?

Not my Freedom. Not my Democracy...

And on false pretenses...

Harald

The BBC only decided to show us what was happening when it was really bad, they were slow to react. What did they have to say about Gaza very little they only got on the Lebanon issue when it was really dire even before then there were images and reports on the MPAC site about what Israel was doing in Gaza and then Lebanon.

To slow for me...and bbc radio is just as bad I was listening to radio five live when they had this man 'Brian' from Israel on and gave him what seemed like and eternity to make his point about how his life was made hell because he had to live in a shelter for 15 days- oh how my heart bleeds for him what about the Palestinians lives they have made a living hell with check points etc...Then in order to claim they were listening to both sides of the argument they had a man on from Lebanon I cant recall his name because he was on for about a minute and then when he tried to raise any wider issues other than what he was asked about they cut him off mid sentence. While Brian was left for a whole 5 minutes to tell us how bad his life was...really I don’t think I am that concerned when how many people in Gaza and Lebanon killed. The didn’t interrupt Brian with any questions taking what he said as gods word - have to say very disappointing seeing as I thought five live was quite good...even hearing from some of the people who campaign regularly in the city centre for Palestine they said that the media was really bad on the issue.

Shazia,

Yes. You are right in that the BBC were indeed very slow to react, and though I didn't hear the particular stories you mention, I have no reason to think you are wrong. Indeed I have ample reason to think you are right. The stream we are on was created to thank, ONE newsreporter for being brave...on one particular story...

That in itself is telling. When we see the need to thank a reporter for doing what a reporter is supposed to be doing. Ask tough questions. Of both sides...

Because we have to be able to question our reasons for why we think the way we do. When we don't, states like Israel are left to do whatever they please.

Thank you Shazia...

While the war of words goes on with Messers Barrett and Alderman flagging for Israeli war on Palestinians and now once again on the hapless Lebanese, it is the truth and the ordinary civilians and children who are the main casualties. I honestly wonder what would future historians and ordinary people think of Israel, and courtesy its policies how would they veiw the Jewish traditions just after the Holocaust and the centuries of pogroms that they had been tragically subjected to! All this washed down for a piece of land! What a sorry and stupendous loss! I feel we all must try for a new start and generosity as well as sanity demand that we accept where we went wrong. Please visit the following web site and see how anyone with an iota of sanity and humanity can defend such horrible misdeeds! Be human enough to call a spade a spade

Barrett,

Yes, I agree, sources should be supplied - you've learnt that lesson now, have you?

As for the devastation... If you scroll down a little you will see the same area before and after bombardment...i think you can agree it looks like a mainly civilian area...

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=125408

If Hezbollah had damaged as much as 1% of Tel Aviv, what do you think would have happened?

Human Rights Watch today accused Israel of targetting civilians, and they had no evidence that Hezbollah used civilians as human shields...though they also admitted they "sometimes" put military weapons "too close" to civilian areas and UN-positions.

Like i said before Barrett, shouldn't civilian life be protected more? If so, shouldn't Israel send in soldiers rather than use bombs?

And while we talk, innocent civilians die...

Barrett,

Are you talking about the killing of UN worker Iain Hook by Israeli sniper fire November 22, 2002 in Jenin?

I just saw an interview on Sky News with Sir Crispin Tickell,former uk ambassador to the Un.

His interview has not been fully published on any of the news channels or papers but was on Sky News at approx 1400hrs 5 Aug 2006.

It was an excellent interviews highlighting waht common sense says that Isreal is in breach of Un and International law. That it should stop hiding behind the the cries on anti semitic any time it get critised.

He stated all the basic requirements to resolve thgis matter,and the way forward.

IS THERE ANY WAY MPCAUP COULD GET THE INTERVIEW DETAILS OR LINK?

Your "bombing and shelling attack" was interesting. Here are some Katushas for you........... firstly I found some of your analogies about teddy bears offensive. Take away all the "propaganda" (I'm not saying that there hasn't been overegging and exaggerations but so what? All your arguments are on the lines of "they do this so it's ok for us to do that". That is a pathetic kindergarten way to argue). The reason it's offensive is because children really HAVE been killed (yes including Israeli children and they count as well) but take away all the propaganda and you still have many dead injured and traumatised children, women AND men (who were not Hisbollah). And FAR more of them are in Lebanon. And in Palestine you know damn well if you have an honest bone in your body then that is incontrovertibly the case. Do you really expect people NOT to criticise Israel when we see what it does in the West Bank and Gaza DAY AFTER DAY? And now Lebanon. Israel "regrets the loss of civilian life". Sure thing that's why your country shells and bombs Gaza on a daily basis. It's not the Israeli Defence Force it's the Israeli Punishment force. Wake up. Why SHOULD Israel be trusted??? Why SHOULDN'T people be angry with your country? Your argument that Hisbollah does this and Hisbollah does that is absurd. It's a non argument. To say that others do bad things as well does NOT JUSTIFY what Israel does. You are in constant breach of UN resolutions, build and expand illegal settlements and basically hold Palestine by the throat. As for tired old chestnut "Israel is fighting for its very existence". Sure poor little Israel. The most heavily armed country in the whole Middle East. Backed by the most powerful country in the world. At the moment run by a bunch of stone age unevolved human beings who wouldn't know what justice was if it hit them in the face. Take away anti semitism and "Islamonazis" (yes there are some but so what) and you are STILL left with a country with scant or little regard for ordinary human decency (when it comes to Palestinians or Lebanese that is). As for your comment about some of the demonstrators carrying banners "We are all Hisbollah". Yes maybe that is offensive. I don't agree with it. But I remind you of my earlier comments. Peopla are understandably FURIOUS about what your country does. What is more it justifies it. People aren't that stupid. Maybe in America where the news is so pro Israel but not in Europe thank God. This Lebanon thing is NOT an isolated incident. If it were and your wonderful IDF did not behave like Hitler's SS then you WOULD be entitled to some sympathy. I suggest you join the growing number of Jews of conscience round the world who are saying roughly what I and many others are saying here and more and more "Not in my name".

Roddy

Israel is in breach of no UN resolution which it is required to obey.

Repost:

Barrett…

And again, you astound me…by your complete reluctance in taking “self-criticism” on behalf of the Israeli government… You would make a good horse, put some blinds on you and you would happily go wherever you were led…

”There's no doubt Israel is losing the propaganda war. You don't have to be a paid-up peacenik to find some of the pictures coming out of the Middle East distressing. No one with an iota of humanity wants to see the corpses of women and children caught up in the conflict.“

I am sorry if wanting people to stop killing people makes me into a “paid-up peacenik” (I was unaware I could be paid for this, details, please…)


”But you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist, either, to wonder how many of the male 'civilians' killed by the Israelis are actually Hezbollah terrorists or whether everything we're being shown from Lebanon is for real”

I’m not stupid. But children?

”Islamonazis are sophisticated propagandists and they know they'll find a gullible audience in the civilised world for their carefully-strewn teddy bears, strategically-placed 'Baby Milk Factory' signs (in English) and wailing widows from central casting.”

Are you telling me Barrett, that none of the signs in Israel are written in English? Just because Israelis are shuttling journalists to the latest “shelling” by Hezbollah, doesn’t mean everyone else is… And so, if they do? At least then we’ll get more of a balanced view…

”Have you ever noticed how every time a coalition air strike goes astray in Iraq, it always manages to hit a 'wedding party'?”

No, I haven’t.

”Why is there only ever one child's shoe in the rubble, never a pair? There always seems to be a broken medicine box, too, with a handy red cross - never a red crescent, mind you - on the lid, just in case we haven't got the message.”

On the shoe and the medicine box, I’m a photographer, I photograph what brings the point across. So shoot me. No, actually, please don’t!
On the “red crescent” – that is possibly the most racist comment I’ve ever heard from a mainstream English newspapers. They are an independent charity Barrett…are you suggesting a life on the “crescent” side is less worth than one on the “cross” side???

”Credulous CNN correspondents and handwringing BBC reporters fall over themselves to sign up for the Hezbollah guided tour of the ruins.”

Probably because they are fed up with the tours on the Israeli side, there are more casualties on the Hezbollah-tour. Because the Israelis have bigger weapons.

”I use a rough rule of thumb whenever I watch television coverage of the Middle East. Anyone who pronounces Hezbollah as 'Hiz-bull-arrrgh' and Israeli as 'Izza-ra-ay-lee' is almost certainly telling lies.“

More racism. Thank you for showing your true colours Barrett…

”The bien-pensant buzzword used to describe Israel's bombing is 'disproportionate'. But what's 'proportionate'? Are the thousands of rockets fired at genuine civilian targets in Israel 'proportionate'?

It is only because Israelis are hunkered down in underground shelters built out of necessity and bitter experience, or have fled out of range of Hezbollah's salvoes, that there haven't been piles of bodies on their side of the border.

What would 'world opinion' consider an acceptable death toll before acknowledging Israel's right to retaliation and self-defence - 1,000? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?“

How about none

”Hezbollah has started a war it knows it can't win in the certain knowledge that there will be civilian casualties. Its stated aim is to kill as many Israelis as possible and if innocent Lebanese get caught in the crossfire, “tough”.“

Not pretty Barrett. Not pretty at all…

”These fanatics have little or no regard for human life. Their tactic is to hide among civilians; to use terrified women and children as human shields; to deploy school playgrounds as rocket launch sites; hotels and apartment blocks as command centres; homes as weapons dumps; mosques as air-raid shelters.”

What fanatics? Oh, “your” fanatics, ok… Who terrifies them more do you think? Those who are on their side, or those who think they are “expendable”? HRW has not, to date, found any evidence that Hezbollah have used civilians as shields. Maybe if you stopped shelling them back “20 years”, they could find some evidence for it, but until you do, expect world opinion to be against you. Ok?

”I've heard reporters referring to Hezbollah as a 'resistance' movement. They love it, don't they? Just as they insist on calling terrorist murderers 'radicals' or 'militants' - as if there's no difference between Al Qaeda and Aslef train drivers on unofficial strike.”

Actually, there is a “radical” difference. Aslef train drivers doesn’t have a case.

”What they never point out is that if Hezbollah didn't exist, there would be nothing to resist. Israel is the Tony Martin of the Middle East, lashing out in fear and frustration after enduring years of provocation.”

Thank you for raising that one. Equally, if Israel didn’t exist, there would be nothing to resist. Sorry, I do not say Israel doesn’t have a right to exist, your esteemed journalist just did…

”Just as Tony Martin was abandoned by the police to endure burglary after burglary at his remote farmhouse, so the 'international community' has done nothing to disarm and disband Hezbollah or prevent it and Hamas repeatedly attacking Israel.”

So, now we are condoning shooting our enemies in the back. Thank you for that. Too.

”The United Nations hasn't lifted a finger to stop Iran and Syria supporting and supplying a standing terrorist army in Lebanon. There are no sanctions against the barking mad president of Iran when he constantly threatens to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and is hell-bent on obtaining nuclear weapons.”

What country is the only ME country to have nuclear weapons Barrett?

”Iran has put Lebanese civilians in the front line of its lunatic war against Israel and the U.S. in particular and Western civilisation in general. So where's the international condemnation?”

The USA has put Israeli civilians in the front line of its lunatic war against Lebanon and Iran in particular, and Eastern civilisation in general. SO where’s the international condemnation?

”Hezbollah is the provisional wing of Iran. Would it be 'proportionate' if Israel attacked the paymasters and ringleaders of Hezbollah in Tehran?

It may yet come to that. But first Israel has to remove the immediate threat to its security.”

Israel is the provisional wing of USA. Would it be “proportionate” if Hezbollah attacked the paymasters and ringleaders of Israel in Washington?

”The United Nations isn't going to do that. The UN is a busted flush, led by the laughable Kofi Annan - the Chauncey Gardiner of world diplomacy. When it left the U.S.-led coalition to go it alone in Iraq, it sent a clear message to other tyrants and rogue states that they had nothing to fear from the UN.”

The UN has been left toothless by the US and the UK. So what if the rest of the world don’t agree with them…

”There are hourly calls for a ceasefire, but when Tel Aviv suspended bombing for 48 hours the response was a record number of Katyusha rockets fired into Israel in return.”

The “ceased” aerial bombardment for a few hours, because they killed a horrific number of civilians in one attack alone. But they resumed attacks within hours. Get your facts straight. Please.

”I saw a BBC reporter standing on a hillside trying to convince us that because missiles were still being fired from Lebanon despite three weeks of fighting, it was evidence that Israel's tactics weren't working and it couldn't win.”

Yes.

”Hezbollah has spent six years building up its arsenal in preparation for this war. Who said an Israeli victory would only take three weeks?”

Uhm, the Israelis??? And they said TWO weeks. Twice.

”If there is a ceasefire, Hezbollah will simply regroup. There's talk of a negotiated settlement, but how do you cut a deal when one side says it will not be satisfied until the other is totally eradicated?”

I thought that was what they Israelis are using as their excuse for the continued attacks on Lebanon? That they want to “eradicate” Hezbollah?

”Lasting peace has only ever followed total victory in war. Even if Israel and Hezbollah/Iran agree to walk away tomorrow, we'll be back here again in a few years.”

Egypt and Israel both claimed victory in their war. There’s still peace. I rest my case.

”Then there's the Palestinian question. Again, even though Israel ceded territory in pursuit of peace, terror attacks and kidnappings on Israeli soil have continued.

There's talk about dusting off the old 'road map'. Israel accepts there will have to be a two-state solution, but the only 'road map' of the Middle East its enemies will accept is one without Israel on it at all.”

Maybe that’s because of the continuing harassment of Palestinians by the Israelis?

”Meanwhile, spare a thought for the Jewish community in Britain. They're as distressed by the carnage as the rest of us and there are divisions over Israel's actions. No one wallows in the death of innocents - except, of course, Hezbollah and its Iranian puppet-masters.”

More racism Barrett. Not very pretty at all…

”THIS time of year, there are 15,000 British Jewish teenagers in Israel on the traditional summer rite of passage. And there are 30,000 British passport holders living in Israel.

Although we had wall-to-wall coverage of grumbling British passport holders being evacuated from Beirut, there doesn't seem to have been equal concern about our fellow citizens under bombardment on the other side of the border.”

Perhaps this is because there is a negligible risk? Because the Israelis have the means to “rescue” anyone wanting to be rescued?

”What struck me about the recent pro-Israel demonstration in London was the number of Union flags in the crowd. These are our people.”

Thank you for that. I am proud of that.

”I didn't notice any Union flags at the Stop The War rally, though there were plenty of 'We Are All Hezbollah Now' banners. It doesn't seem to dawn on them that if you want to stop the war you've got to stop Hezbollah.”

Maybe there just wasn’t enough Jews who wanted peace? And no, you do not just have to stop Hezbollah. You also have to stop Israel. And you have to stop the harassment by Israel of Palestinian and otherwise Arabs in their territory.

”But what drives most of these 'peace campaigners' is not so much a desire for peace as a hatred of Israel”

Just plain wrong.

”Every time something goes off in Iraq we're told it will radicalise young Muslims back in Britain. We hear that Tony Blair's failure to call for an immediate halt to the Israeli offensive has put us at imminent risk of another Islamist homicide attack on our streets.

Despite the Hezbollah war on Israel and the mounting casualties - and the widespread condemnation of Israel in this country - I've yet to hear anyone warn that young British Jews are queueing to blow up themselves and hundreds of others at Brent Cross shopping centre.”

Are you really quoting this rubbish Barrett? Of course they are not, they have America, they have AIPAC, they have “real” weapons!

”I repeat, this war is awful. The civilian deaths are a tragedy.”

Something tells me he forgot to add “Israeli” in front of civilian…

”But there won't be peace in the Middle East until the likes of Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas recognise Israel's right to exist.

And, I'm afraid, this side of kingdom come, that just ain't gonna happen.

Israel may be losing the propaganda war, but it isn't fighting a propaganda war - it's fighting a real war for its very existence.”

Despite their huge propaganda budget, they are still losing. Yes. Perhaps that tells you something about human decency. We see through the propaganda…

Alderman

"Israel is in breach of no UN resolution which it is required to obey."

Pray, do tell why that is so...

Thank you Harald. I am completely and utterly with you on this. That article was about as poisonous and venomous as it's possible to get. I cannot believe that with all the strife and hatred in the world that this sort of stuff can be published by a so called responsible newspaper. Even one as bad as The Daily Mail. Not only about as right wing as you can get but worse - in a horrible twisted and perverse way this little gem of hate actually masqueraded as a defence of civilisation. I am appalled that even the Daily Mail (which is not a paper I like admittedly) can have stooped SO SO LOW. I would like to get a copy of this poison so I can complain the paper itself. Do you know where I can get one??? Can you imagine the outcry from Zionists if I were to write an article in a newspaper saying that I was suspicious of anyone who pronounced the word Israel Izzzzzrrruul and/or spoke with an American accent (like Netahanyu and his ilke) ???? When you boil that remark down (I mean what that racist said about pronouncing Israel Is ray eel)it basically says "all Arabs are liars". Can you imagine the outcry if that remark had been made about Jews?
Of course there were many other things which you pointed out. And rightly so.

Harald

Because no UN resolution touching Israel has ever been passed under Article VII of the UN charter. Only Article VII resolutions [such as those passed against Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq] are mandatory.

Geoffrey

thank you Roddy,

It is my pleasure though, I detest racism with a passion. I was beaten up by the "neo-nazis" in my hometown for standing up to them, and I would gladly do it again.

This, to me, is the very same racism, though in a new disguise. The methods may vary, but the aim is identical...

About the UN-resolutions, I wonder, Mr Alderman, whether that has got anything to do with the US having a veto in the UN?

Just trying to put things in perspective for you Alderman... History will condemn people with attitudes like yours, just like they did other racists in times past. Human decency has to win, or humans will die out as a race. And therein lies the clue Alderman; we are all the same race, despite your, and Mr Barretts, racist beliefs.

regards,

Harald

Harald

The USA has fortunately vetoed many racist-inspired UN resolutions against Israel. This does not alter the fact that Israel has violated no UN resolution it is required to obey.

I must say that as someone with impeccable ant-racist credentials I resent the language you have used to describe me, which has no basis in fact and which has no place in this discussion. Shame on you!

Please see the following quotes from the various Israeli prime ministers on Israel, Palestinians, Arabs and the US policies. Quite sad, persistent and revealing! No wonder, many Israelis have problems in taking the Arabs, Muslims and even the Americans as normal, decent and equal human beings. But in this day and age with all the media and mobility can they go on pushing so recklessly in this blind alley! I guess they must undertake a serious rethink!
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Subject: Some famous quotes from Israeli Prime Ministers regarding the M-East conflinct
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 12:27:40 +0000



"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): " If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return... The old will die and the young will forget." David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, July 18, 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's "Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet," Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." - David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." - David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From >Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population; Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'? Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979; Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." - David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." - Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." - Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy." - Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our >generation without deceit and adventurism." --Moshe Sharett, Israel's first Foreign Minister and later a Prime Minister (p.51 Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel", 1987)

"The state of Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the methods of provocation and revenge.... And above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." -From the diary of Moshe Sharett, Israeli's first Foreign Minister from 1948-1956, and Prime Minister from 1954-1956.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." - Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...." - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization." - Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Alderman:

"I must say that as someone with impeccable ant-racist credentials I resent the language you have used to describe me, which has no basis in fact and which has no place in this discussion. Shame on you!"

I will apologise once you denounce the racist article posted by Barrett, until you distance yourself from such views I am left to think you are indeed a racist.

I hope I am wrong.

Kind regards,

Harald

Harald

I am not falling for this. I take full responsibility for my own statements, but none for anyone else's.

I challenge you to point to any statement I have ever made, on this thread or anywhere else, that any reasonable person would consider 'racist.'

I wasn't asking you to "fall" for anything Alderman, I asked you as a decent human being to denounce the statements put forward in The Daily Mail. You know they are racist, I merely ask that you acknowledge that.

If you do not, you condone them, and by doing that you are as guilty of them as the person who stated them.

No?

Harald

I have now read the Daily Mail item. It is - I grant you - raw - even crude - in the phraseology and idiom it employs. It is not the sort of article I would have written, and I am not necessarily identifying myself with any of the sentiments it expresses. One might argue that the writer would have made a greater impact if the turn of phrase has been rather different. But - raw though it is - it is not racist. There is a serious argument to be had about the media reporting of the IDF attack on Qana, and it may be that I shall pursue this argument - but not on this string. It has, however, struck me as - well, odd - that we have seen no reliable TV reporting and newsreel footage of the actual launch of Hezbollah rockets against civilian targets in Israel (if I am wrong I shall be much obliged if anyone reading this will direct me to the source.) There is also an argument to be had about Islamic anti-Jewish racism, and on this score I can do no better than direct you to the writings of the Muslim scholar Irshad Manji. Anyway, in summary I pronounce the Daily Mail article to which you kindly referred me certainly offensive (to some) but certainly not racist. Can I add that I believe strongly - as I am sure you do - in the right to give offence, which it seems to me is a basic component of freedom of expression?

Harald

An article is [allegedly] racist. Dr Alderman agrees with something in the article. Therefore Dr Alderman is racist?????

Methinks your logic is at fault.

A hundred years ago English racists accused Jewish immigrants to England of being responsible for all the social and economic ills that then beset the country. They were wrong on most counts, but right in one: the Jewish immigration was a direct cause of increased incidence of tuberculosis in some inner cities.

I not only agree that Jewish immigrants caused an increased incidence of tuberculosis. I have said so, in print.

That does not make me a racist.

Think about it

Sorry to disappoint the Mr's Barrett and Alderman further when it comes to "fanning the flames", but this is what you do not see on American - or Israeli - TV...

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html

I could have posted more "emotional" footage, but I think Barrett would have somewhat of a fit if I did...

And just to clarify, I would have posted other "flame-fanning" photos during WWII - if I had found it. And I hope I would...

This isn't about being anti-Israeli, or anti-American, like a few of the people on here seem to think, it's about being pro-human...

A good eve to all and their family, and please, no more killing...

No. More. Killing.

And some "statistics" for the doctors and professors reading this stream...

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Understand what you are defending.

Harald

If you're arguing that war is a bloody business and that innocents get killed in war, I couldn't agree more. I had a schoolteacher (now deceased) who as a young officer in the Far East took part in the torture of a Japanese soldier (in order to discover the whereabouts of a Japanese killing squad). This schoolteacher was the kindest man imaginable, but the situation he found himself in had a brutal logic all of its own; I am not sure I would not have done the same had I been in his place. I have viewed the footage you referenced. I had to smile at the references to crude Hezbollah rockets that couldn’t kill anyone. Really? By the way, have a look at
-----------
This concerns a major news agency that has reportedly admitted distributing photos that had been doctored to make Israeli damage look worse than it was.]

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this again. It seems to be getting nowhere. But I have to say that your comments "all Muslims lie - it's in the Koran" made me very angry. It is also (less seriously because it is so ridiculous) a pretty ridiculous comment. Do you REALLY believe that??? I'm sure Muslims tell no less or more lies than any other religious grouping. Still as ridculous as it may be that you have brought this quote into the argument I do find it odd that as an articulate person you can have even said this. And in a more sinister vein I do agree with Harald here that that is a very very racist comment. And that sort of proves the point about just how racist Israel and most Israelis are. The fact is there will never be peace in the Middle East when these sort of comments are prevalent (on both sides - similarly if a Muslim refers to a Jew in a similarly pejorative way). The fact is you have dehumanised the Arabs and they have you. Unfortunately the real reason for this is the existence of the state of Israel in the first place. You disrespected the indigenous population, colonised the region and have killed vast quantities of civilians MANY of them children. We see it on our screens every night. My heart bleeds for those poor poor people. When a Westerner like me or anyone (of whatever religious persuasion) with a conscience sees the appalling treatment carried out in the name of a so called civiiised state and then we see your attacks on Lebanon how CAN we possibly NOT feel angry. How can you expect peole to sympathise??? Really?? Do you really not see what I am saying here/ How can anyone with a brain possibly agree that you are "defending yourself against terror". Where is the condemnation of all the children that you have killed in Gaza? All the civilians in Gaza that have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Did you know that nearly 140 Gazans have been killed since the soldier was taken hostage? How many Israelis have been killed by Palestinians. It is SHAMEFUL. Because there is no defence you muddy the waters by pointing out what Hisbollah does (and I am NOT justifying Hisbollah attacks on civilians) How dare you claim kinship with my country England?????? And where is the condemnation of these atrocities???? All this carnage to some of the poorest people on the planet. They have nothing here. Poverty and refugee camps. It is Israel who are the biggest bloody terrorists in the whole area (now I am losing my temper). How DARE Israelis claim that this is anything to do with (ridiculous phrase) "War on Terror". Are you blind or what??? What is it about Israelis that they can't see what all the rest of the world sees?? With perhaps the exception of George Bush Tony Blair and the other evil unevolved neo cons in the White House. We don't need any more wars. The human race needs harmony understanding. Has it occurred to you that if you had behaved with justice in the last 60 years then Hisbollah amd Hamas. would not have existed. You have radicalised the whole area. All because you want to hold onto land and not give justice to the original inhabitants. I LIKE the quotes Ifti gave of the prime ministers quotes. It demonstrates perfectly the evil that Zionism is about (by the way I make a huge distinction between Jews and Zionists)I agree with Harald on many points. As he said you can get out of wherever you are. The Lebanese don't have that privilege. Most of their infrastructure has been destroyed and they daren't move without fear of being bombed and shelled. This is NOT the case in Israel. It is nothing like as severe. Israel is a far more westernised country and can provide transport out of those areas.
I despair of your defences of Israel. I promised myself I wouldn't come on here again. It's just not possible to get through to you.

P.S. How can you possibly compare Qassams and Katushas? Jon Snow (bless him), I would be almost sure, was quite right when he said they were "pretty pathetic". As far as I'm aware Quassams are about as lethal as a very large rocket you can buy in a fireworks shop. Surely you were aware of that? Or are you trying to mislead ?
If I am wrong about Qassams which I gather are basically "home made" rockets being "pretty pathetic" please show me the statistics of Israeli deaths as a result of these things.

Wow…a reasonable Barrett and Alderman, could it be because of the link I posted above? I will have to post it more often…

“We too do not want any more killing”

You have a funny way of showing it…and defending the continuing killing really isn’t helping much…

”I accept that there are soldiers who overstep the mark - seen it much worse with the GIs and Brits in Iraq”

And there were “soldiers overstepping the mark” in Vietnam…and in Germany’s concentration camps… But you know as well as me that we CAN NOT ACCEPT THESE EXCUSES in our time. You are defending Israel using the same excuses German soldiers and officers used at Nuremberg. We didn’t accept them then, and we certainly will not now.

“ust let the arabs accept Israels existence by signatory deed like Jordan & Egypt. We are not going to disappear or be pushed into the sea. Maybe some people today do not approve as to what ws done in 1947 but Israel is defacto, fact! Leave us to practice our religion and praise God in Jerusalem.
Is that really so hard to do?”

No it isn’t that hard to do. But Israel and America are finding it very hard to do indeed…accepting that the “other side” have a legitimate claim to life too that is… You have been mistreating the Arabs for decades…

”Oh BTW does J.Snow still think that Katyushas are harmless pieces of flying metal, esp when they are filled with metallic ball bearings? which slice old women, men and children into body segments?”

Cmpared to the cluster-bombs the Israelis have used you mean? Yes, compared to those they are pretty harmless, and have proved far less lethal than your ball-bearing-carrying Katyushas. Horrible as they are.

”BTW you should have heard what people were saying this am about our army hierarchy after the Giladi mess - of course we criticise; free speech and all that .
HRW can criticise - seems to live here ; there are other places in this globe. They are like Amnesty Intnl.
Free access and they think they are important
I am afraid that their past history of this region has not shown impartiality and thus they are not afforded respect EVEN if what they NOW report is true.”

NOW what they report is true. That is all I ask of them – to learn from their mistakes. So what of their previous transgressions. NOW what they report is true. Thank you.

”War is war and is never clean / mistakes occur [ as I pointed out WW2]
BUT considering the amount of disproportionate bombing I would say that the no of "civilians" [ and I am sure that some belong to Hez] is actually quite LOW.”

Yes. In Israel that may be the case, earlier today there were less than 100 Israelis killed, compared to 1000 Lebanese…of different ethnic origin…and a third of which were children under 13… That’s three times as many CHILDREN as there have been ISRAELIS killed throughout the whole war… The majority of Israeli victims are soldiers, placed in harms way by their government…though yes, there have been children killed on that side of the border as well…

Children. Barrett. Children. Alderman. I wonder what the world would have done had the attacks been on Israeli children on this scale…

Or how Americans had reacted had it been dogs...

”Please do not assume that because we stick up for Israel we are against all islamic arabs or are racist . Israel is one of the most open societies you could experience and if you are prepared to make the effort I shall be the first to show you round.
Arafat ruined it for the so called Pallys with his ego-rhetoric - they NEVER ask what they can do for themselves and its a real shame; they WANT what others have and w/out Israel or a nearby Jew they lose their raison d'etre to exist”

I don’t assume you being racist for sticking up for Israel. I assume you are racist because of the article you posted, which had plenty of racist references in it, and you apparently backed it in total. My ex-girlfriend was Jewish… I do not oppose jews, or arabs or christians…

I oppose people defending the killing of civilians.

That is you, Barrett, and you, Alderman.

And please, how long has Arafat been dead by now? Listening to you, you’d be excused for thinking he’s behind this whole “incident” in Lebanon…

You are insulting my intelligence Barrett, please don’t try to do that again…just because I don’t have a “doctor’s degree” doesn’t mean I’m stupid, or that I’m willing to listen to your lies…


As for you Alderman, for a “professor” you are using very crude arguments indeed…if they can even be called arguments… Are you really saying that the killing of hundreds of children can somehow be defended?? That makes you worse than any other racist I have met so far…and I have met a few.

Roddy, welcome back, I back your words fully, I share your resent for Barrett and Aldermans “arguments”… Any thinking human being will indeed be incensed at their pathetic attempts at excuses for the actions being conducted in our name.

That link again, you all owe it to yourself to watch these clips…

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html

Just to clarify, when I said "reasonable", I meant that you were not name-calling and you used somewhat calmer language...

Your arguments are still not reasonable to any thinking person.

Barrett…

“1] I have posted that part of the Koran where it gives permission to a muslim to deliberately lie to achieve purpose as ifti requested --FACT & not racist ; they wrote it not me!
And you can read about lying on certain islamic sites where muslims decry the way in which their religion has been manipulated”

Reliance of the Traveller is not the Koran, is it?


“2] I pointed out to ifti and MPACUK that the majority of these quotes posted are fabricated or altered to suit propaganda purpose - ie a LIE:
Might sound nice to you but not verifiable – FACT”

Coming from you, that is pretty rich. Is it not? (see your point 1…a blatant lie, even if your religion forbids it?)

“3]Kassams have KILLED at least 8 persons and done untold damage - FACT
And you know what the katyushas do.”

“Untold damage” is what is happening in Lebanon Barret. Please. Open your eyes and SEE! How many people have the Israeli rockets killed in Lebanon???

“4]The Pallys not only kidnapped the soldier but also killed 2 others at the same time UNPROVOKED. Israel was NOT in Gaza – FACT”

“Unprovoked” – yes, if nearly 6 decades of being treated as sub-humans is unprovoked then it was unprovoked.

“5] I have as much kinship with England as I suspect you have & that you cannot alter”

I can’t say I blame Roddy for wanting you out of here…

“6] Learn your history . Israel was declared on a very narrow strip of land . Arabs refused to accept after they murdered the Jordanian king at the time. They attacked- they lost!
Khartoum - NO recognition.
Recognise and accept publicly -- then there will be peace.
Fact is they have not got the guts to do it.”

You keep repeating that little nugget enough times Barrett, perhaps even you will believe it.

“7]They dehumanised themselves - they have been given monies left right & centre and just spent it on self luxuries and weapons instead of building up a viable state.
Isarel tried to rebuild Gaza after 1973 but was thwarted at all turns by UN --jobs for the boys!
EVEN EGYPT DID NOT WANT GAZA WHEN OFFERED ON A PLATE BY BEGIN - forgotten . Sadat knew what he would have been dealing with!”

You are a racist pig. Read what you just wrote… You just said Arabs are somehow sub-human/non-human. And please. If you had given them _half_ the monies you have been given from the US, Palestine would have been a prosperous nation too…

“8]My offer to Harald to come and visit is offered to you but I suspect you might not get in - alliance with PFLP is tricky.”

Yes, you do live in a police state…

If the Jewish believe that the land was given to them by god and they are killing innocent people to get it then surely killing must be in their holy book - you leave the Quran alone you don’t understand it as you are a racist Zionist.

before your racist comments I did actually feel or think that all Jews were not bad but after reading these nasty comments now heading towards my religion I am utterly shocked at the depths you will lower yourselves to when you cant prove your point and when people like Roddy and others have challenged you every step of the way.

But racism from a Jew is no surprise:

"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."

Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

So is it any wonder that they said Arabs are somehow sub-human/non-human - it’s their religion that teaches them to steal land and all the rest of it.

"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God."

Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772


From the Talmud...

No wonder they continue the killing in Lebanon.

The worrying thing is that one of you live in the UK I find this pretty disturbing the fact that you can live in such a liberal and multicultural society and still hold these views you are one disturbed person.

Now do us all a favour and crawl back into the hole you emerged from!!!

Harald

Regarding Shazia’s apparent quotes from the Talmud, I have time now to deal with just one, the alleged quote from Tractate Baba Metzia folio 114b: “The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."

Firstly, this strikes me as a mistranslation of Hebrew words for “man” and “men.” The passage actually relates to the concept of ritual impurity derived from a corpse, and in fact stresses that greater impurity derives from a Jewish corpse than from the corpse of a non-Jew. Secondly, I have not been able to find the words “They are beasts” anywhere in the Talmudic text!! Can Shazia please direct us to the actual Talmudic words that he claims occur here?

Geoffrey

Point taken. I did not notice that you had posted that. I must have been having a busy day. Also due to some error I am getting 5 or so copies of each comment from MPCAUK. Comments (or not) later. I am no expert on the Koran but it seems spurious to quote stuff from that and come up with a blanket statement that "All Musilims are liars". That seems to be what you are saying here?
What is PFLP?? I am not familiar with the abbreviation??? Thank you for the statistics. However if these are correct it would not justify the deaths of hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza. As far as I was aware Qassams were more of a nuisance than an actual threat. Unlike obviously Katushas that are in a different category. Surely the more subtle and effective way of dealing with these rockets is to make genuine reductions in humiliations, occupations, shellfire and the rest??? But mainly in the area of dignity and mutual respect between human beings. That might give Palestinians everywhere the impression that Israel was serious about making peace. Unfortunately the way it seems to me is that Israel only wants peace on its own terms? I won't bore you with the reasons I say that. You know the arguments............illegal walls, illegal settlements, humiliations etc etc. etc.

Shazia

I have now researched your apparent quote from the Talmud Tractate Bamidbar Rabba. This is a commentary on the verse in the Book of Numbers, chapter 23, verse 11, referring to Phineas, who executed Zimri for immorality. The commentary explains: “Whoever kills a wicked person [not 'non-Jews'] may be compared to someone who brings a sacrifice to G-d.”

Geoffrey

“Whoever kills a wicked person [not 'non-Jews'] may be compared to someone who brings a sacrifice to G-d.”

Well, that gives a green-light to the killing of IDF who kill civillians. Thanks for that :) I will take your version of the Thalmud on board.

Hussain:

If so, it also gives the green light (does it not?) to the killing of Hezbollah terrorists who murder civilians.

Geoffrey

Hi Shazia. Yes thanks. I realised that's what had happened. That I'd clicked yes to the first four things I posted. But no I don't know how to get rid of them at all. And if you find out anything I'd be grateful. To Doctor Barret....I really don't think you should be insinuating that somehow Muslims/Arabs are not trustworthy and quoting something from the Koran to "prove" a point. I feel this sort of (apparently reasonable) comment is really below the belt. And I'm sorry to say it but actually rather sly as to me if something like this (i.e. some quote from the Koran) is brought into the proceedings then it should be done with some sensitivity to people's religious sensitivities (incidentally I am not Muslim myself but had a wonderful afternoon about a month ago talking to some very intelligent and thoughtful and nice people who happened to be Muslim. I find the Muslim faith interesting and do not believe the stereotypes put about by the tabloid and some of the irresponsible things that you have been trying to inflame the situation with). I think it is you that is trying to lower the tone here. And it is an emotive thing to do. I think you know that? Similarly you lose any claim to objectivity and truth when you publish a clearly posionous and inflammatory article from the Daily Mail. And then you distance yourself from it although it is you that has brought this onto the website in the first place. Whoever wrote that article is highly irresposible and if we are trying to have an intelligent "reasonable" discussion you, I think, should have made it clear that you did NOT agree with it. Again it's trying to win an argument by poison. There's enough poison in the world and there is also ENOUGH religious hatred in this world without you inflaming the situation any more. There's both Islamophobia and anti semitism. Neither is right or just. If we could all just listen to each other's point of view the world would be a better place. Please understand that many people view Israel as an aggressive country for good reasons. I've said it once twice and I'll say it again. Your country does NOT behave in any sort of civilised manner to your neighbours the Palestinians (that is putting it very mildly - there is no point in going into another diatribe............you know what I think and how passionately I would like to see justice for these long suffering people)I can't speak for anyone else but I know that I feel passionately about the injustice and that is why I feel very very angry with Israel and what it does. I suspect many many people feel the way I do (clearly Harald and Shazia do as well)In fact I know they do. Muslim, Christian, Jew HIndu, Buddhist etc etc. I do NOT understand why you cannot see this extremely valid point of view. And see why people of conscience would naturally want to stand up for the oppressed and dispossessed (is this SUCH a difficult thing to understand and why does it make anyone wnti semitic? Isn't it just about wanting to see justice done). Particularly as being Jewish or Israeli does not prevent CERTAIN people (who are Jewish or Israeli) from seeing it. Why do you have to defend Israel? What is it about so many Israelis that make them blind to how the world sees their country? I do not know what you meant about me being prevented from going to Israel because of "my association with the PLFP (whoever or whatever that is)". That sounds like a threat. And if it is I would like you to know that I have no deisre to go the Holy Land any time soon (and by the way as far as I'm concerned it belongs to everybody, Christians, Muslims AND Jews ALL view it as a sacred place). As long as it is controlled by militarism it is not a nice place to go. I went there 20 years ago and have no desire to go again. Not at least until there is peace there. Thank you for the offer though. I appreciate it. I am not being sarcastic either.

Yet again Barret you have failed to answer the question something which you are really good at – you should be PM for your country you would do a good job in avoiding the question and making the other person some how look unreasonable. It is you who is blind to the truth what has your education got you but arrogance. For your information I am a law graduate with a first class honors degree and will be starting my masters in International human rights law this year. The Palestinians are the most educated in the world have the highest rate of PHD’s – as for Israelis I would not like to comment. Provide me with the source from the Quran that says that Muslims should lie or are encouraged to do so to get what they want - which is what you have said.

Cleary you have no source as this is not said in the Quran this is why you try to insult me with you venom...and try to intimidate me to silence me. I ask you again where is the verse that says Muslims should lie I await you response but feel yet again you will not answer the question nothing new there really.

Shazia,

Barrett admitted it wasn't actually in the Quran...but in a "significant" book related to Islam...

In doing so he hoped you would only remember the lie, and disregard his step-down from his version of the "truth".

A very common technique by people like him...and one that - sadly - works...

We know it's not the truth, but it will stick with those who are in doubt... His religion apparently tells him not to lie (or so we are led to believe by his "holier-than-thou" post), but still he does lie, and worse...

A "Dr" who lowers himself to name-calling when he has no more arguments, that is who we are "arguing against", which makes me question whether it's worth spending further energy on...

The only thing that draws me back to this discussion is that I will not let people like that have the last word. I can not allow that to happen, or his untruths would be left "open".

I can not leave these blatant lies un-challenged...

Kind regards,

Harald

I think you are absolutely right Harald. There has been a lot of manipulation going on. For instance the thing about publishing that vile article. Seeing the reaction and then saying that it was not him that wrote it. Also bringing in the Koran is most unpleasant. Again not a direct attack on the Koran but a sideways swipe. Even though I say so myself I've seen through this now. And hopefully my last posting makes it clear that he has been rumbled. Both for that vile article and the mention of the Koran as a means of being inflammatory. I'm genuinely sorry that people aren't able to look themselves in the mirror but carry on justifying wrong doing. I've heard these type of arguments before. When soething can't be defended something is pointed out to get a reaction and to get them off the hook of having ta answer an accusation. I hope hostilities resume tomorrow. I do enjoy the scraps although I have to say I feel slightly ashamed of saying that !!
All the best

I hear you Roddy, I hear you loud and clear...

I can not believe people like Barrett can see past the hundreds of dead children and somehow "justify" that to himself... Someone who should be in a position to know better allow themselves to sink _that_ low...

It saddens me...

Have a good night friends, let us hope the aggression can end soon.

This meaningless violence has to stop...

Hi Harald. I think we are trying to put a square peg in a round hole here. I do NOT understand how people can detach from this level of violence and not to want to condemn it or call halt. But there it is - the justifications presumably will continue. To me it is a form of blindness and self delusion. I have seen it in others before. It seems to be particularly prevalent in Israel (that's putting it mildly I know). I have just gone onto the link you posted a couple of days ago. The Human Rights Watch. It is written very simply and I believe very honestly. It is a good site and i will go back if I want reliable information. I found it distressing though. One family lost twelve children. And this guy was apparently (although Hisbollah) simply a political figure and had nothing to do with the military operations side of things. But isn't this just like the Israelis. Remember Sheik Yassin in Gaza (and the rest). Disgusting and obscene. Those poor people in Gaza have about as much suffering in one week as most peop;le get in a lifetime. But Barret doesn't seem to even understand what we are incensed about. I found it distressing reading a lot of that stuff on the deaths of civilians in Lebanon. It REALLY brings it home that these are human beings flesh and blood.
See you in the morning.

Harald - Thanks - you can report comments but unfortunately the link isnt working so i cant at the moment but will try and contact MPACUK to report his comments and he himself has not yet replied - as he talks a load of bulls**t.

I think it's better to leave it now, as people can see how silly he was being. It serves to discredit him, rather than being a credible post, so it can only harm him!

And thanks for your suggestion previously - I signed up today c",)

See when I quote thing Barret I actually provide the source where as you go on and on about nothing this is again a plea for you to provide the source that you base the reasoning that Muslims should or are encouraged to lie in any holy book that the religion is based or followed from by Muslims - if you can not do so then shut up and stop spreading lies.

We all know how you religion tells you to kill innocent children to steal their land from them after all god gave it to you didn’t he! Don’t get started on religion we all know what this is about really you just couldn’t prove your point that Israel was justified in what they were doing esp. as the killing of innocent people continues so you thought hmmmm what can I do to divert from the topic so it looks like I have won the debate – ‘ I know I will move onto lying about a religion I know very little about from my racist view point.’ Its not going to work you lost the debate get over it and go away!

Salaams & Shalom,
Sorry to see this debate degenerating into unrestrained and blantanly incorrect quotes/references to Quran, courtesy our Israeli respondent. I guess Dr. Barrett, you need to doublecheck your material--especially in reference to the Quran--before insinuating 1.5 billion Muslims on earth, which is immensely serious and insidious. The book does not tell anybody to tell lie! Period.
On the contrary, you will be amazed to know that millions of Muslims while praying five times a day seek in each section of their worship the Divine blessings and security for Abraham and his descendants. If you put these figures for prayers together they will reach billions per day. Sometimes, I tease my Jewish friends by saying how could we or nature hurt you when we Muslims are praying for your peace and safety day in and day out. This is a kind of lesson that Islam carries in practice and sadly many of us--Muslims and non-Muslims--may not be even aware of it! We offer this prayer when we sit facing Makkah, which is several times in each of the five-time worship.
Now, some reasonable and highly respectable Jewish colleagues are being deeply critical of Israeli invasions and here I reporduce Rabbi Goldberg's piece for you and others to see that it is not merely a Muslim-Jewish or Arab-Israeli issue, it is very much linked to Jewish humanism and moral values where many Jews feel hurt and disturbed. Please, do not externalise it too much while looking for scapegoats and let us stand together for a common human dignity--away from all this collective insinuation, which does not stand a chance in any intellectual, moral or legal discourse.
In peace,
Ifti
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Comment

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Israeli force can stop the rockets, but for how long?

The disproportionate response has increased Arab hatred, alienated the world, and brought criticism from many Jews

David Goldberg
Wednesday August 9, 2006
The Guardian


In one of the tractates of the Talmud - that vast repository of rabbinic law and lore - there is a discussion about the difference between killing in self-defence and murder. A man came before the eminent Babylonian sage Raba and said that he had been ordered by the governor of his town to kill a third party in order to save his own life. Was he permitted to do so? No, ruled Raba, the principle that if someone intends to kill then you kill him first only applies if thereby the life of the intended victim is spared. Otherwise, "Say not that your blood is redder than his; perhaps his blood is redder than yours." Even in extreme circumstances we should comply with certain rules of moral conduct that enable societies to function and sovereign states to maintain relations with each other.

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War, too, has its own rules of limitation and restraint, enshrined in just-war theory, the Geneva conventions and international law. Prominent among them is the doctrine of proportionality: that the response to aggression should be commensurate with the act.
It would be true to say that Israel has always taken a robust attitude towards reprisals. Zionist policy from pre-state days was to respond to Arab attacks with double force, as a deterrent. David Ben-Gurion, the first Israeli prime minister, was the supreme exponent of this approach. Yet, interestingly, shortly after Israel's stunning victory in the six day war he counselled returning almost all of the captured territories because, in his view, after such a comprehensive thrashing the defeated Arab nations would leave Israel in peace for at least a decade. Moshe Dayan was dispatched to his desert kibbutz to tell the old man to pipe down. Piecemeal colonisation of the West Bank followed, in retaliation for Arab refusal to recognise or negotiate with Israel, which is why almost 40 years on there are 250,000 Jewish settlers on Palestinian land and no resolution in sight to the claims of Palestinian statehood.

The present eruption in Lebanon is the latest in a long list of major wars, smaller campaigns, two intifadas, terrorist attacks, suicide bombings and targeted assassinations that have bedevilled the region since 1967. Both peoples have been corrupted by the situation. Neither can claim moral superiority.

It is reasonable to infer from newspaper coverage and television evidence that Israel has been noticeably disproportionate in its response to the abduction of two soldiers and the killing of eight others in a Hizbullah ambush three weeks ago. Asymmetric warfare, as it is currently fashionable to call the contest between regular armies and guerrilla forces, inevitably results in asymmetric casualties, at least 10 times higher in Lebanon than in Israel.

The government of Israel has the legal sanction to protect its citizens and forcibly remove Hizbullah's rockets from southern Lebanon, along with the danger posed by 2,000-3,000 guerrillas. However, it should be borne in mind that - intolerable though it is for a large section of the population to be forced into bomb shelters and some of them killed - Hizbullah's arsenal of Katyushas, rifles, machine guns, grenades and mortars represents a negligible military threat to the survival of Israel. This is not a total war between two countries that involves both armed forces and civilians, making Israel's response to Hizbullah rockets analogous to the American response against Japan after Pearl Harbor or Britain's against Germany, as some of Israel's defenders have grotesquely tried to claim.

Whether Hizbullah is indeed the fanatical spearhead of a Shia arc of extremism bent on the liquidation of Israel followed by world domination, or whether the prospect of Muslim unity among its opposed factions is a chimera, is something for strategic analysts to argue over. What is certain is that governments must respond to events in the present, even while getting their foreign-policy thinktanks to anticipate the shape of future alliances. In replying as forcefully and misguidedly as it has done to provocation from Lebanon, Israel might not even achieve a rocket-free zone in the north.

But given that the Palestinian problem is no nearer solution and that by creating a wilderness in Lebanon and calling it peace Israel has recruited thousands of new martyrs to the Hizbullah cause, military and diplomatic planners are going to have to ask themselves how long the respite will last. Was Israel's disproportionate response worth the cost of strengthening Arab hatred, alienating world opinion yet again and, last but not least, inviting criticism from a growing number of diaspora Jews who wish for Israel to live in security but find it increasingly difficult to condone what is being done by the Jewish state in their name? As the late Richard Crossman said, a policy of pragmatism is never justified - especially if it is unsuccessful.

· Rabbi Dr David J Goldberg is emeritus rabbi of the Liberal Jewish Synagogue, London, and author of The Divided Self: Israel and the Jewish Psyche Today.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious most Merciful

(Quran Sura 16 Verse 106-110)


Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. 107. This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject Faith. 108. Those are they whose hearts, ears, and eyes Allah has sealed up, and they take no heed.
109. Without doubt, in the Hereafter they will perish.
110. But verily thy Lord,- to those who leave their homes after trials and persecutions,- and who thereafter strive and fight for the faith and patiently persevere,- Thy Lord, after all this is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful
(16:106-110)

The growth and development of the Muslim Ummah is marked by two great phases:

- The period in Makkah, before the Hijrah (Migration)622 CE)
- The period in Madinah, after the Hijrah.
Naturally the revelation from Allah to guide the Muslims also responded, to some extent, to these particular situations.

Sura 16 was revealed in Mecca before migration . The muslims were just a minority in Mecca, they were severely persecuted and were subjected to some of the worst form of torture. Yet the Muslims remained firm in faith, There are many accounts of how people preferred death ---

16:106 speaks volumes about the mercy and Justice of God he does not punish people people who had uttered disbelief in the face of compulsion only by their mouths while their heart remained firm in faith. This verse further goes on to warn people of grevious punishment who completely forsook their religion in the face of oppression,This verse nowhere commands people to wilfully lie or decieve.

It is God here who will decide to forgive only those who are sincere in heart as it is only God who can see what is in the hearts of men--- In verse 16:106 God clearly says that the only ones who would be forgiven for uttering unbelief are the ones who's hearts remained pure under duress and compulsion,. So how can you say this verse encourages people to lie--- no matter how hard one tries, one can never feign sincerity --- So it is the sincere heart which shall be forgiven if the mouth utters unbelief in the face of compulsion. under no stretch of imagination it can be inferred that verse 16:106 and Verse 40:28 of the Quran encourages people to lie--- The Quran nowhere says that one should utter disbelief in the face of Compulsion.---


No where in the Noble Qur'an or the haadith teach us to give up our faith after we have accepted the truth--even when someone is holding you a gun on your head.

Remeber, Allah(swt) Said we will be tested on this life.

How can we forget Bilal (ra)? He was tortured almost to death, but never announced his faith back.

Or what about the wife of pharaoh, Asia, who was killed by her own husband? And there was a maid from pharaoh's houshold, who was among very few believers. She was thrown on boiling oil together with her children, and never renounced her faith even though she was promised to go free if she converted back from Islam.

That, is tawhid!

It must be clearly understood that the Quran no where teaches to lie under compulsion.

where does verse 16:106 teaches people to lie under compulson. It merely states that those who uttered disbelief under compulsion while their hearts remained firm in faith would be forgiven - It nowhere teaches that One should lie in the face of compulsion!

Thank you Shazia...

Barrett and Alderman, a question for you both:

Do you consider the Jews to be God's chosen people?

Thank you in advance,

Harald

Harald

I consider that we Jews have been chosen by G-d for certain purposes.

Geoffrey

Harald
Interesting question often asked.
Badly phrased tho.

God chose Jacobs decendants[ removed from Egypt with the help of Moses & miracles]as the beneficiary of laws and regulations to be kept by them for all time so that they may a holy nation unto Him.ie a nation separated from all others because of these laws.
He also chose this nation [ then Bnei Yisrael = Israelites] to demonstrate to the other nations that they could also be close to the same God by keeping the 7 Noahide commandments.
God also chose where this formative nation would live & as related assisted them in conquering the land.
Only in this respect were we chosen.

The promised boundaries have never been realised because the Jewish people have never maintained a 100% relationship with God.Nevertheless it would seem , apartr from a few blips, God has maintained His covenant with the decendants of those initial Bnei Yisrael.
Jew is derived from Judah - the tribe; source of kingship
Hebrew is derived from a word meaning 'from the other side '- ivri- and has become the title of the Jewish language

Sorry if its long winded .

Shazia
your quote"We all know how your religion tells you to kill innocent children "

Do we?


Where? Do enlighten us , please.

Professor Alderman this is a very cryptic and enigmatic comment. Presumably this is deliberate. And maybe even it is designed to provoke. If there are errors in the way people perceive Jews (and by the way cliche though it is personally speaking "some of my best friends are Jews" - there are also many Jewish artists, musicians film directors etc who I admire and who I believe have contributed enormously to the human family..........none of them however ae Zionists) then why do you not take this opportunity to explain yourself?? And put any potential negative feelings and negative stereotyping of Jews on this website to rest? If you make comments like that then you lay yourself open to racial stereotyping and comments such as "why do the Jews control the media and finance industries?" Why are there so many Jews in the Washington administration ). And if you do not explain it you also let people infer that this is perhaps the reason why most Israelis/some Jews see themselves as having a God given right to oppress others because they have carte blanche to do so being God's "chosen people". That they act like this because they are not accountable to other human beings who are gohim. Personally I think this is nonsense and I think any thinking person would agree. Look at what the IDF does in Gaza. This could not be sanctioned by a just God. Although I didn't totally understand Doctor Barret's reply at least it was detailed and was an attempt to explain.

No offence. But it is a load of bloody nonsense to me. When you have an inherently racist concept that one group of human beings are "God's chosen people" then you have a recipe for racism. Personally I think we are all part of the human family and being on this earth gives us an opportunity to tolerate the differences in others. If we have inherently racist beliefs like this around then no wonder we have the conflict we see in the world. I am certainly not accusing the Jews specifically. Every religion is culpable when it gets hijacked by extremists. The Muslim extremists who are more in the news here than Jewish extremists do a disservice to Islam. Which is very unfair on Muslims. Similarly in my opinion do Zionists do a disservice to Judaism (which is not fair to Jews either) All round the world people are killing and the rest in the name of religion. Israelis do not do this overtly but if they have this pernicious idea they are God's "chosen people" it can hardly help matters to put it mildly. It should be rooted out as the cancer it is.

In a way you are correct but also confused - it is not a racist concept.

You attach a secular reason to that intended for something holy.
PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN HERE. IF SOMETHING IS TRUE THEN IT IS TRUE RIGHT ACROSS THE BOARD.

Israelis do not regard themselves as chosen in the sense you imply. THESE ARE CONFUSING AND COMPLICATED MATTERS.
I DARESAY THERE ARE MANY SECULAR ISRAELIS (IN FACT I BELIEVE THAT MOST ISRAELIS ARE SECULAR. THIS IS THE CASE IS IT NOT? THIS ALSO BRINGS UP THE INTERESTING QUESTION WHAT OR WHO IS A JEW? IS IT A RELIGION OR AN ETHNIC GROUP?) WHO DO NOT GIVE THE MATTER OF HAVING IT WRITTEN IN THE JEWISH SCRIPTURE (AGAIN I HAVE LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS) THAT THEY ARE "GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE" A SECOND THOUGHT. HOWEVER HUMAN BEINGS ARE VERY COMPLICATED. WHETHER THESE JEWS/ISRAELIS HAVE ABANDONED THEIR RELIGION OR NOT (AND AS FAR AS I'M AWARE THE MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS ARE IN FACT SECULAR) IT WILL HAVE BEEN IN THE PSYCHOLOGICAL DNA OF THEIR PARENTS AND PASSED ON TO THEM WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.. AS A NON PRACTISING CATHOLIC WHO HAS NOT BEEN TO MASS FOR AT LEAST TEN YEARS I WILL ST ILL, WHETHER I LIKE IT OR NOT, THINK TO A LARGE EXTENT LIKE A CATHOLIC. IT IS TROUBLING TO THINK WHEN ONE LOOKS AT THE SITUATION IN PALESTINE THAT THERE MAY BE BOTH MESSAGES IN THE JEWISH SCRIPTURE AND SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES IN THE JEWISH FAMILY THAT ARE TAKEN BY SOME AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR OPPRESSION AND OCCUPATION OF ANOTHER PEOPLE.. I THINK HARALD'S POINT IS VERY RELEVANT. I WONDER (AND AM APPALLED BY) HOW ONE NATION/GROUP (THE JEWS) CAN BE SO, FOR THE MOST PART, UTTERLY UNEMPATHIC TO THE SUFFERING OF ANOTHER NATION (PALESTINE - ALSO NOW LEBANON) AND WONDER IF THE IDEA PASSED ON AND INHERENT IN JEWISH CULTURE THAT THEY ARE "GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE" IS INTEGRAL TO THE THINKING BEHIND WHY ISRAEL'S ACTIONS ARE SO OFTEN SAVAGE AND OPPRESSIVE. ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT???? I THINK THIS IS A REALLY RELEVANT QUESTION AND I THINK IT SHOULD BE ANSWERED.. IF YOU STEP BACK FOR A MINUTE AND IMAGINE YOU ARE NOT JEWISH CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT THAT IS A FAIR QUESTION TO PUT?? WHY FOR INSTANCE ARE THE ACTIONS OF THE MILITARY OF THE JEWISH STATE SO DISPROPORTIONATE?? IT IS NOT AS THOUGH YOU ARE NOT HEAVILY ARMED (THE MOST HEAVILY ARMED COUNTRY IN THE REGION) AND AS YOU KNOW, YOU ARE THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE AREA THAT POSSESSES WMD. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO RESPOND IN THE WAY THAT ISRAEL DOES. I GO BACK TO AN ARGUMENT I MADE TO YOU SOME DAYS AGO THAT HIS IS ACTUALLY DYSFUNCTIONAL ACTING OUT OF THE VICTIM MENTALITY. I HAVE SYMPATHY FOR JEWS WHO SUFFER FROM THAT. AND I HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THE OPPRESSION THEY HAVE SUFFERED OVER THE CENTURIES. BUT NO SYMPATHY WHEN IT COMES TO HEARING FALSE JUSTIFICATION FOR INFLICTING UNTOLD SUFFERING ON ANOTHER NATION. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE REASONS INDIVIDUALLY WERE FOR THE 300 OR SO EMINENT JEWS WHO TOOK OUT A WHOLE PAGE IN THE TIMES RECENTLY TO CONDEMN ISRAEL'S ACTIONS. DOES THIS MAKE NO IMPRESSION ON YOU? DOES IT NOT GIVE YOU GROUNDS FOR THOUGHT AND GROUNDS FOR QUESTIONING ISRAEL'S ACTIONS??? IT IS IRONIC ALSO TO ME THAT THERE ARE SO MANY DECENT LIBERAL THINKING HUMANISTIC JEWS WHO FIND IT ANATHEMA THAT ISRAEL CARRIES ON THE WAY IT DOES. TO ME IT IS THE JUSTIFICATIONS THAT STINK TO HEAVEN. THEY AREN'T REAL JUSTIFICATIONS. IT IS SIMPLY A CASE OF ACTING OUT OF THE VICTIM MENTALITY AND I AM SURE THE INGREDIENT OF BEING "GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE" IS ANOTHER FACTOR.. I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS WHETHER A JEW IS SECULAR OR RELIGIOUS FOR THE ABOVE TO APPLY. YES I DO KNOW ABOUT THE ORTHODOX SECT NETUREI KARTA. I FEEL VERY WARM TOWARDS THEM. I
God - assuming you accept the notion - chose us [ we the descendants of Jacob] to be holy & in obesience to Him. Laws of sabbath ie not working/ laws of what & what not to eat -kashrut/ dress code/ business code.etc

Roddy
I would appreciate your definition / understanding of 'secular' before answering. It might differ from mine
Thanks

I suppose what I meant by secular Israelis/Jews were those Israelis/Jews who in their personal lives are not motivated by orthodox or organised religion i.e. people who do not go to the synagogue and do not consider religion an important thing. Hope that helps.

Professor Alderman has been very quiet of late. As it is not Shabbat I can only assume that he has called the ceasefire earlier than the agreed time of 5 am GMT. Or is all hell going to break loose then??

Barrett, how does your hateful lying and deceit differ?

really?

i just saw a film called "Shooting dogs", please try to refer it to what we are seeing today. just one thing in reference to this film, you may consider yourself "tutsi", because you feel you are a "minority", but really you are the "hutu", because of your far superiour military power! and their propensity for seeing themselves as the "minority" and the "slaves"...

my point of view...

Roddy

I have been travelling extensively over the past week and wondering why British Muslims are blaming Mr Blair's foreign policy for the latest Islamic plots against aircraft when they need only form a political party to counter this policy and put up candidates in what is termed a parliamentary election.

Geoffrey

I don't speak your language Barrett...

so if you would please tell me if the translations in the following clip are correct?

http://mishtara.org/hingus/?p=70

who's inflaming who, exactly?

apart from the obvious spelling mistakes i mean...

Firstly I don't always agree with "Muslim spokemen" on everything. However I am one hundred and fifty per cent in agreement with the 38 Muslim groups who said that our (shameful) UK foreign policy has affected the way this country is viewed and makes us a target for disaffected radicals. Muslims and non Muslims should join together on this very important issue. I am personally writing to my MP to give my views on this. As it is very important indeed. Do not give me that old 9/11 happened before Iraq old bulllshit chestnut. We were not a target before but are now thanks to Blair's belief in himself that he is somehow God's messenger against the "war on terror" (how can you have a "war on terror" incidentally? It is a contradiction in terms). The powers that be are in a deep coma if they think that it is just Muslims who think like this. The double standards sicken me as I'm sure they do many people. I am proud to be English but not when we do not have the humility to bow out and stop trying to be a Great Power in the 21st century. Blair insults and demeans our country with his quasi imperialist policies. Even previously loyal Blairites are now resigning and writing letters thank God. As a Muslim journalist commented yesterday on Dateline London it is not just Muslims that feel this way it is mainstream Britain. Muslims and non muslims who think about matters can see the double standards and nonsense that these front bench politicians talk. How dare Reid say that those 38 groups are being "disingenious". What planet is he on? How dare he represent me? The Blair goverment people does NOT speak for the vast majority of people in this country. Some democracy when even ordinary middle England detests the foreign policy and can see injustice staring them in the face. I know of NO ONE who likes Blair. Some dislike him for different reasons but more and more it is because of his foreign policy. Starting with Iraq. Even the normally cool British came out in huge numbers (the biggest ever demo in UK history) to demonstrate against the Iraq lie. I dont always agree with France's foreign policy but I do these days.I am personally ashamed that we are apparently being run by dinosaurs who have brought back some quasi imperialism throw back to the British empire. This country should gracefully bow out and take a back seat in world affairs. This permanent five thing is an anachronism. The United Nations would be great if it was a truly democratic organisation and not run by the five "winners" of the second world war. Let's have justice in this world. Not dinosaurs running things any more.Please God, Inshallah may Blair and his ilke go soon and STOP speaking for me when I do not agree with a word he says. We have heard so much about sorting out the Palestine Israel conflict. But this comes up time and time again when there is a crisis and nothing is done. It sickens me as I'm sure it sickens many. Harald's mentioning the film Shooting Dogs (which I am meaning to see too) has reminded me of the ghastly way people are treated in Gaza and the West Bank and how strongly I feel about those long suffering people. It is such an apt description of how Palestinians are treated.

Good Shazia. Glad you liked it. I had a complaint from somebody that I was sending out anti semitic stuff. But I pointed out that it was Jews and Israelis that were behind these cartoons. As for Pat Buchanan Harald thanks for the tip. What I read seemed pretty good.

ANOTHER REALLY INTERESTING ARTICLE......Look What You've Done!": Israel's lobby in the US (AIPAC) Congratulates
Itself on getting the US to support the Slaughter in Lebanon By JOHN WALSH
Counterpunch, 16 August 2006
http://www.counterpunch.org/walsh08162006.html

160 Palestinian fatalities since the soldier was kidnapped. Without the loss of single Israeli life. Excluding Lebanon of course. Do you not see why it is eminently reasonable to consider Israel a terrorist state? This is unconscionable terror. How on EARTH can you go on defending such bloodshed?

Geoffrey Alderman:

"I have been travelling extensively over the past week and wondering why British Muslims are blaming Mr Blair's foreign policy for the latest Islamic plots against aircraft when they need only form a political party to counter this policy and put up candidates in what is termed a parliamentary election"

I read the above and i nearly fell off my chair laughing - isnt that what hamas did and what happened to them Israel kidnapped the government and now the deputy i hear...

so your the last person to be giving out advice about what is termed a parliamentary election.

and stick to the topic this is way off for this you should join the forum not debate it here...

and how do attacks become ISLAMIC - so what Israel did sorry is doing in Lebanon should be termed Jewish terrorism sorry that should be zionist terrorism/attacks!

unlike you i dont associate all jewish with Israeli terrorism!!!and if you travelled so extensively how did you miss the respect party - becasue your a twit and what you mean when you say travelled is you stepped out into your backgarden - so dont bother pretending you know anyhting!

very interesting indeed:

www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1856587,00.html

Amnesty report accuses Israel of war crimes

David Fickling
Wednesday August 23, 2006
Guardian Unlimited


The aftermath of an Israeli air strike on southern Beirut. Photograph: Mohamed Messara/EPA

Israel deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure and committed war crimes during the month-long conflict in Lebanon, according to an Amnesty International report.
The report said strikes on civilian buildings and structures went beyond "collateral damage" and amounted to indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks under the Geneva conventions on the laws of war.

Kate Gilmore, the Amnesty executive deputy secretary general, said the bombardment of power and water plants and transport links was "deliberate and an integral part of a military strategy".

"Israel's assertion that the attacks on the infrastructure were lawful is manifestly wrong," she said.

"Many of the violations identified in our report are war crimes. The pattern, scope and scale of the attacks makes Israel's claim that this was collateral damage simply not credible."

Amnesty called for an official UN inquiry into human rights violations on both sides of the conflict.

The report's authors described the destruction of up to 90% of some towns and villages in southern Lebanon, releasing aerial photographs that showed Beirut's southern Dahiya district had been transformed from a bustling suburb into a grey wasteland.

"In village after village the pattern was similar - the streets, especially main streets, were scarred with artillery craters along their length," the report said.

"In some cases, cluster bomb impacts were identified. Houses were singled out for precision-guided missile attack and were destroyed, totally or partially, as a result.

"Business premises such as supermarkets or food stores and auto service stations and petrol stations were targeted, often with precision-guided munitions and artillery that started fires and destroyed their contents."

Israel launched more than 7,000 air strikes against Lebanon during the 34-day war, and naval vessels launched 2,500 shells, the report said.

Around one third of the 1,183 people killed in Lebanon were children, while 4,054 people were injured and 970,000 displaced.

Lebanese estimates suggest that 30,000 houses, along with up to 120 bridges, 94 roads, 25 fuel stations and 900 businesses, were destroyed.

Two hospitals were destroyed and three others severely damaged, while 31 "vital points" - such as airports, ports, water and sewage treatment plants, and electrical facilities - were also completely or partially destroyed.

The overall cost of the damage amounted to $3.5bn (£1.8bn), the report said.

Around 4,000 Hizbullah rockets were fired at northern Israel during the conflict, killing around 40 civilians. Up to 300,000 people in northern Israel were driven into bomb shelters by the fighting, and 117 soldiers died.

The Amnesty report said Israeli military policy seemed directed at destroying Lebanese popular support for Hizbullah, a tactic prohibited by the Geneva conventions.

"The widespread destruction ... in addition to several statements by Israeli officials, suggests a policy of punishing both the Lebanese government and the civilian population in an effort to get them to turn against Hizbullah," it said.

Red Cross officials were quoted as saying that people left behind in inaccessible villages in southern Lebanon had been unable to get hold of fresh water.

Refugees from the border village of Rmeish had told Red Cross delegates that locals had had to drinking foul water from an irrigation ditch.

The report's allegation of disproportionate action echoes comments made during the conflict by international observers including French, Russian and EU officials and the UN humanitarian chief, Jan Egeland.

However, the British government has avoided the term, which could be considered an accusation of war crimes, although former the foreign secretary Jack Straw and the Conservative foreign affairs spokesman William Hague both used it.

that interview was something that you will never see sky or BBC for that matter doing it.... Jon snow was brave enough to honour his profission and ask the Zoinist ambassador a questions he didnt have an answer for them...well done Jon SnowWell done channel 4

Excellent interview! Let the Arabs win the media wars as long as the Israelis continue to win the shooting ones.

Well done Ian, great comment there mate. :)

Geoffrey and David yes Bani Israel were the chosen people, the Quran actually tells us this. (Some) were the best of mankind because they submitted to the will of God. We have another name for someone who submits to the will of God - Muslim. So the people who were 'chosen' were actually the muslims of thier time.

The Quran also tells us what to say to Jews and Christians when they say they are the chosen people of paradise, long for death like the muslim if you are truthful and where is your proof to this claim?

Anyways this debate can continue to the Day of Judgement, the Day when there will be no injustice on anyone. I guess we will find out then who was right and wrong. :)

To all the muslims, Allah (swt) states that he will not change the situation of the people until they change whats inside themselves. So, make constant Dua that Allah improves your Iman, do the extras in the religion to bring you closer to your creator. Also remember as Muslims, we cannot kill innocents. The disbelievers are not our 'brothers' and 'sisters' and they (ALL) seek to turn you off your religion. Read the Quran there is enough proof for you in there. :)

The jews in palestine today are not those ousted by the Assyrians, their genetic markers would inform one of that fallacy. They are not even semitic, with some exceptions like Yemeni and Ethiopian jews. Even these have as much right as the chinese have over Palestine. Semites constitute less than 5% of Israeli Jews, while the Palestenians are semites. So i guess that the Zionist are the real anti-semites. They hope to create an illusion by associating Israelis with terms such as 'semitic' and 'anti-semitism', with an aim to decieve the general public in consolidating their claims to lands that belonged to semitic people.

A case of wolves in sheep clothing, shouting wolf all the time.

In the end all it achieves is a temporal success, in state forming that is ultimately destined for failure.