Br Asghar. i think you have misunderstood the difference between accountability and 'unislamic' rhetoric. Islam taught all of us to correct and even criticise but with the way the Prophet (saw) taught us.

You are confusing the need to account with the Prophetic method of doing so.

Furthermore, at a time when every islamic group is under attack, there needs to be a tactical call - do we concentrate on small differences or accept these differences, correct in the prophetic way and then pursue a course of action against our real enemies.

Brother, you have every right to do your work, but please lets behave as Muslims not use kufr etc... in such a liberal way as is done on the mpod.

"Un-Islamic Rhetoric" - it seems that the cliques who want the Muslims to stop have already started with new words and means to silence any debate on accountability!

Haroon what strange words you use, on the one hand complaining about others use of language then complain that the very Podcast in nothing short of Kuffar!

It is narrow minded cliques like you and the group you no doubt follow who have suppressed accountability from rising in the Muslim lands.

Eithr speak good and enjoin the right or keep silent!

MPAC are right once again, it will take a revolution of ideas to educate the Muslims, but I fear that is beyond Muslims.

For some reason people think the Phophet was some sort of Anglican Bishop, who would quietly smile and have a sandwich rather then challenge the wrong doers (sincere) or the hypocrites (insincere) wiht a harsh word.

The Prophet had a character that could do both, but one thing he did do was challenge evil, he challenge the society and he stood up for what is right.

MPAC those who talk about manners are nothing short of misguided fools who would rather you shut up because what ever you do and how ever you do it, will always offend.

Anyway there is nothing offensive about what you say and I do find the manner of you saying it offensive.

well done and keep up the good work.

If Haroon said that to the Mosque Committee I am willing to pay him 50 quid that the committee will tell him that he is causing fitna.

At least he has a voice to oppose MPACUK which is not like the other organisations.

Dear all,

With all due respect, this is the problem. you need to listen and ponder on what is said before responding.
Listenning was the greatest asset of the Prophet (saw).

I am not saying, and didnt say 'dont account'. Sure this is a must. But accounting must be linked to the aim of 'changing'. The Prophet (saw) dealt with the bedouin who urinated in his mosque in such a polite way that the bedouin replied he had never seen a teacher so kind as the Prophet.

From multiple occasions i have witnessed with some regret that Mpac supporters and key members just shout at Muslims, with no hope in changing them. This is not accounting, but rather a sure barrier to change.

btw - if you really read my first post i did not say kuffar etc.. i said the opposite - we should not use these words liberally.

Dear Haroon, your second post seems to be more measured. Your first post really did sound like a milder version of Al-Mahajaroun.

Accountability of course is about change, and improvement.

I too have seen MPAC holding groups and leaders to account. Sometimes softly, at others harshly. This is the way of the Prophet PBUH and the rightly guided Caliphs.

You only have to see how Umar RTA dealt with people too see he employed both Harsh and soft tactics depending on the situation. so did the Prophet PBUH.

That is the problem with current failure of knowledge. Muslims want a softly, softly approach when often the leaders simply do not and would never respond to that approach.

One uses accountability both softly and harshly depending on the need. Islam does not and never has said that you can ONLY use a mild and soft approach even if it does not work. If an evil is left un-changed by the soft and mild approach it becomes UN-ISLAMIC to fail to resort to the harsh approach.

The example of my local Mosque will illustrate this somewhat. The local mosque has a secret pact never to allow anyone who is not of Kashmiri origin onto the committee. When I challenged this, asking in the most politest terms over a period of months - nothing changed.

Do I then leave the kuffar in place?

I decided to hold them then publically accountable on the matter and printed a thousand leaflets and give them out outside the mosques exposing this. At that very point the mosque leaders sons and relatives attacked me. The Muslims too refused to come to my aid, accusing me, much like they have accused MPAC of causing fitna.

The kuffar was thus allowed to stay in place, because the Muslims had been taught never to challenge the leadership even if Islam demanded they do so. Many Muslims have since told me of similar stories, all have been shouted down an condemned by cliques who support the Mosque, all thinking it was better and more Islamic to keep silent, then raise a voice against the jahiliya perpetrated by our Mosques.

A Muslim brother once told me that he had requested that the Mosque stop teaching such harsh sectarianism, so that the young children did not end up hating other Muslims in the Mosque down the street, just because they were a different school of thought. Instead he suggested they start to simply teach the Muslims that they were different but they could still be friends and live side by side without hating each other. He said he made repeated requests over two years. Finally he was thrown out of the Mosque and told never to return.

Islam demands justice, and an end to the munkir. Both politely, but also if that fails harshly.

The only evil is silence and inaction.

The reason why Muslims fail to grasp this is, they have never lifted a finger to make that change and os have no expeirience of what they are dealing with, but also as the podcast rightly says, they have been taught to be sheep and not Muslims.

Soft voices to harsh rulers very rarely works.

Haroon are you saying Racism is not Kuffr?

Who are you to hold leaders to account! These leaders have studied islam for years.

Do we hold our doctors to account!

Fear Allah!

Our Mosque Leaders are doing a good job! Our ISOCS are doing a good job!, and MPAC are just causing fitna!

Who let this guy post? lol what kind of crazy talk is this?

If our doctors screw up we sue them for every penny they have - but when the mosque leaders do it, they've studied so they can't be wrong.

If a doctor diagnoses wrongly, you get an ill patient.

If our mosque leaders do no good (which they don't - accept it my friend) then you get an ill Ummah.

Isocs are lousy and don't do anything apart from set-up dawah table so if it's a windy day they're screwed! lol

mpac ain't causing fitna - they are doing what we should all be doing.

Peace out,
Abu Funza
-----------
http://mpowering-us.blogspot.com/

Your comments are crazy it doesn't matter if the religous leaders are the smartest, most learned people in the world they can still be corrupt and use their knowledge to progress their own needs rather than the needs of the Ummah you need your head checked!

We have to hold all the so called leaders or men of influence to account if they are not willing to help the suffering people of Kashmir, Chechneya, Palestine etc.

The docile mosque leaders would rather talk about how their school of thought is correct, and have gatherings on Milad ul Nabi than tackle the real issues.

My grandfather who has passed away (May Allah grant him paradise) was a commitee member of the local mosque. I used to always tell him that you can't ignore the suffering of our brothers and sisters across the world.

All he used to say was look after your own house first.

What a petty excuse, He's my grandfather and I love and honour him deeply, but I wished he done more at the time to mobilise the mosques.

MPAC seems not to be prioritising it's efforts by talking about and discussing tertiary issues and 'effects' rather than the 'causes' of Muslim humiliation and ineffetiveness.

Nothing will change the condition of the Muslims until they return back to their Lord and enter into Islam in it's entirety. Nothing will rectify our abysmal situation except that which rectified it aforetime.

salams, who exactly is this group of apologetic mosque committee protectors asghar is talking about? according to asghar who dont care about the muslims in paleestine, lebanon etc...who only care about some day dream state?

please respond asghar, as you said you read these comments?

im the brother who brought up the issue of adhaab in the comments box about the previous mpod, i believe according the rulers is a great responsibilty of the ummah and is definately a much more important issue on the muslim agenda as you said i do not dispute this. Accounting the rulers in order to guide the misguided and expose the corrupt dictators is definately a important duty for the muslims, a also agree on a lot fo the problems you have high lited about our mosques, but this doesnt mean you can forget about the issue of adaab and how to deal with be in the correct manner. You often make all issues look like you and mpac are right on an issue, and everyone else who doesnt agree or DOESNT LIKE YOUR METHOD of dealing with the problem as corupt, apologistic stooges, and bad muslims. I think this is just wrong.

pls read the thread for the previous mpod which i commented on

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/3704/1/

i think having good adaab and understanding better who you are dealing with will actually aid you in your aims, venting anger will not help you to make people agree with you, we are not in a school play ground where you can bully kids by being nasty to them. Because ive made this point, ive had mpac supporters say very nasty things and make incorrect assumptions about me. I strongly agree there is a problem with our mosques, i just think we could take a better more productive method in dealing with these mosques on a local level with the support of mpac directing local people to deal with these issues in a particular way, ive discussed in the previous thread; which you can get to throught the link above.

i remember sitting in my flat with some local a-level students thati was giving dawa to and watching the tv program about the mpac sisters on the mosque campaign, their instant reaction was not a positive one because of the way the sisters were doing the campaign, instead of joining the bandwagon i explained the problem with mosques in agreement with you and told them this is an issue that the community needs to solve, i didnt attack mpac even though i dont agree with your methods, so i find it really offensive when mpac supporters attack anyone who doesnt agree with your methods and paint them with the same brush as the many muslims out there who do blindly protect these mosque committees.

also i would like to make a small point, you praised mpac activists as being the greatest muslims out there, i think that would be unfair and generally pushing it. We all know there are a lot of other muslims in the community who are working for the good of the ummah, not only that theree are the brothers and sisters who are giving dawa in the muslim lands in order to change the corruption they live under who are resking their lives, being tortured and their families, and very importantly those brothers in the muslim world who are risking their lives to protect the muslims. As muslims we should be humble and not big ourselves up so much, mpac activists- im sure are working hard but they are not really risking much other than the odd bad reception at a mosque...its not exactly torture by electricution, and ofcourse they are contributing their time, energy and wealth, but then - so are many others, given that i do dua that allah (swt) makes it easy for the brothers and sisters. I just think we should be remindful of our brothers who are giving up a lot more than us in the muslim world.

im very new to the mpac forums, i think its a good open place to dicsuss ideas, its a good service for muslims to share ideas openly, ut we should be mindful not to attack each other personally, we should debate and attack ideas and actions that we do not agree upon amongst ourselves in order to reach the truth, not attack each other personally, unfoetunately i see this happening too much in the forums.

i agree accountability is important as you have said, therefore mpac are also accountable just like everybody else.

i think you should really consider the issue that i have brought up many times now, i dont have a problem with a lot of the things you are aiming to achieve, just not the way you deal with people on the way.

RE: MADMULLAH

i feel the need to account this brother, as he can account everyone and go beyond that and go into more mirky waters through his insults, sarcasm and extreme support of mpac, that i think even mpac wouldnt want you to be rude to people th eway you are in defending them.

Not everyone who brings up the issue of adaab is trying to deflect the real issues and hide them because of a corrupt vested interest.

muhammad (saw) came to teach us how to live, part of that was having good adaab, so dont just disregard it as a nothing issue, you keep acting the say way in your comments, you should just make your point about the persons idea or action, not be rude and offensive or make incorrect assumptions.

in hadith muhammad (saw) warned the muslims of two things that could lead them to hellfire, they were the mouth and that which is between you legs,

bad adaab can take you a long way in the wrong direction

can everyone he agrees with me on this issue with madmullah, can you pls make a comment of support, as ive borught this issue up before and its been disregarded, maybe public opinion may have more impact.

Nozmul you seem to be a reasoned gentleman, but im not sure you frasp the whole picture of what is needed to reform the mosques.

The Prophet PBUH Esa (Jesus) famously over turned the money lenders tables in the church, saying it had corrupted the House of Allah. Ibrahim PBUH (who Allah calls friend) smashed the idols with a stick in another famous Prophetic act.

The point is Adaab is good if it works, but if it fails, then it is no longer islamic to put that act of politeness above the challenging of evil. It becomes un-islamic if it (Adaab) allows evil to continue.

Adaab should be used first, and continueed as long as it works, but dispensed with if it stops the good from taking place.

Please read my above comments for examples.

I agree with nozmul hussain

brother Esa, you may have missed the point here.

it is not right that sincere brthers and sisters cannot descuss this matter without adaab

Umar ibn Khattab said: I love to be in the company of people who choose their words when they speak like one who chooses the succulent fruits. The prophet (saw) said: The muslim is one from whose hand and TONGUE other muslims are safe. we should aspire to be best in our speach amosngt ourselves

as for the mosue commitee, i believe you only create barriers by follwoing a conforntational style. i agree it is not a productive or a sensible way of approaching this issue. a productive thng to do is to enagege as a regualr musalli of the msoque, someone who helpts with the upkeep and maintennace of the msoque. it is only when we are involved woith the mdoque will people listen to us. if we just go over there with leaflets and a media crew it will not be a surprise if the recetion is not nice or the msoque commitee think they are people trying to take over the mosque by force. this kind of thing just creates unnecessarry misunderstanding causes people to put up the barriers

perhaps its better to engage with the msoque, either by helping out/fundraising and getting elected, and engaging with the people in an intellegent way. if the thinking of the key musallis in the mosque change thorugh forming good relationships with them, then we have a better prospect for the mques being utiliased to their full potential. just invading them will result in the drawbdige being pulled up.

Nozmul firstly you must admit MPACUK are more accountable than any other Muslim Organisation.

1. If that is incorrect please let me know which organisation allows you to hold them to account?
2. If you disagree with MPACUK method of accountability then what do you suggest? Throughout the years people have been complaining but when the crunch time comes they drop off like cowards. If you are not a coward then I'm sure you would put yourself forward to hold leaders to account. If you are not why don't you hold the leaders who attended the recent conferance on 'Islam'?

RE: comment before this

you have failed to attach your name, its nice to know it is that is calling me a coward and being rude as usual...mpac supporters & bad adaab; slowly a stereotype of you guys is forming in my mind.

Again you have made false assumption about me that i dont believe in accountability, in previous comments i have made it clear that it is a very important function that all muslims aswell as myself should take up, just like and everyone else i have attented demos...etc discuss with the youth i give dawa to in the area.....and so on.

Really bro, you should read what i have said before making false accusations...im really offended that you are so rude to another brother. I agree with mpac on the many problems with the mosques, i just think the way they are engaging with them will lead to failure and make it more difficult for others to create change in the mosques. I have discussed in a previous thread (http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/3704/1/
) and my comments above, please read them before making incorrect accusations, i really find it strange that you can be so rude on the net, knowing that if you were infront of me you would never talk to me like that- partly becasue i wouldnt entertain such bad adaab.

There is something seriously wrong with the mpac supporters who i have engaged with like yourself in the past few days, you are soo extremely defensive of your organisation without even considering my points of discussion, you launch into rude attacks, and often very incorrect assumptions about me, ive put all my opinions down on the issue of mosques, why dont you just read first, then think about the issue with an open mind and then comment. Im not trying to ridicule you, im trying to give you advice from one brother to another.

As for accountability, mpac does goes good opportunity to be accounted through forums on its sites and these comment sections, i dont dispute that, i think its a really good thing, but i do have a issue with people like you who do not consider other people views and act as you do, instead of discussing with those accounting mpac openly in order to either explain rationally why my complaint is incorrect or take on the complaint and make changes.

Accountability is extremely important, i do not disagree with this, rather i have acted upon this just like many muslims up and down the UK.

and finally, i would like to know, other than you activities on the mpac what dawa activities are involved in? ive mentioned some of what im doing through comments above and the link to the previous thread. Im interested what mpac bros do for the community such as dawa to the youth when they are not on the internet discussing on the forum, as honestly that isnt that much... you need to be out there getting the youth to turn to islam and away from drink, drugs.....etc

Nazmul,

nothing I said was offensive or lacked adaab, it seems you cannot grasp the concept that 'agents of change' by their nature are not going to please everyone.

we understand your points but fundamentally disagree with it.

In your 'opinion' which is unvalidated as you havent changed your mosque, is no more valid then some one elses who say's MPAC are doing the right thing.

Just because you use the word 'Adaab' dosnt mean you practice it, or it dosnt mean you understand the value of it.

also ofcourse mpacuk are accountable, what are these comments, what is their forum, if you write to them on an email you get a reply.

if you have something 'new' to add please do.

Mad mullah, can you please explain who "WE" are? Since you seem to use it when talking to Nozmul

Are you speaking on behalf of MPAC then or the rest of us?

i give up with people like madmullah and gmanthey are not willing to have a normal discussion without resorting to bad manners, i really wanted to have a fruitful discussion, but this can not happen with such peoplei hope Allah (swt) gives us all hidayah