Very interesting insight.

If the real issue was one of the security of us all why go into an illegal war?

Hundreds of thousands of people marched through the streets and many many people including many muslims and organsiations warned blair and the cabinet that it would create the kind of attacks as of 7/7 and yet the government still went ahead.

Why?

Did the government not consider the security of its citizens as important or Was it that white politicians stand shoulder to shoulder with other white politicans more important.

Interesting podcast....
I have been to a few meetings recently where the members of hizb seem to want to revolve the whole agenda around any comment Ruth Kelly ever makes.
As far as I am concerned I take note of the context of the comments and respond in the rightful way, but I do not let it be the bain of my life.
Just talking about what she says day in day out means you are not doing the real productive work that needs to be done.
Majority (not all) of the mosques are behind the times and not meeting the needs of the ummah and if they can't be bothered doing something about it what else do you expect than the government coming and doing it for you... with thier agenda or not.
Lets all try and become an integrul part of the mosques by going throught the correct processes and building thier trust. You will not enable change from outside and you will not build the trust overnight. But this is what we all have to do.
Inshallah may allah assist all those who try with the right intentions

I think we all agree that the mosques need to change, but it is naive to suggest that the governments mosque policy is welcome.

It seems that MPAC are doing the governments dirty work. The way MPAC attacked the mosques for not allowing women was disgraceful, and now they seem to be in bed with the government for changing the mosques.

Come on MPAC its time to wake up. Isn't it time you were actually on the side of the muslims. Change can be brought about with hikmah, not by state interference.

Re : Sags

What a blurry answer you gave, "Hikma will change the mosques"

Thats like going for a job interview and saying, i think i can do my the job of building this tower, i will use Hikma!"

Err yea.....

Anything more pracitcal? Plans, amount of materials needed, planning permission....

Come on please - wake up!

Re Sags 2

I have to agree - that "use hikma" answer was so lame!

At least come out with something logical and practical!

World Leaders: "How do we solve the Middle East crisis"

Sags " Ummmmm.....Hikma?"

World Leaders "Damn why didnt we think of that, your a damn genuis!!"

Duh!

Nice PODCAST!! You should have your own radio show Bukhari thank you for showing us how farcile some of the Hizb policies are.

Sufism is funded by zionists because they do not support Jihad (non violent or violent).

But I must say the Masjids recieving money from the government is positive but at the same time dangerous because the mosque leaders would be more inclined to support the governments foreign policy because they are recieving money from them.

More Podcasts please!! This was great.

VERY NAIVE TO THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO CHANGE MOSQUES FOR THE GOOD OF THE UMMAH.WE CAN ONLY CHANGE THEM FROM WITHIN. THE HIZB IS THE ONLY GROUP WITH THE INSIGHT AS TO THE REAL AGENDA OF THE GOVERNMENT. WAKE UP BUKHARI!

I wnder if Tayab even listened to the Tape??? He seems to have totally failed to understood it if he has?

Even if there are democratically elected Mosque committees things wont change unless the "electorate" push for Mosques to reform.

Well done Asghar, a very accurate expose of the inner workings of the Hizb mindset. I pray that the Hizb brothers sincere as they are will be even more sincere by becoming less partisan and more self critical. The amount of clear mistakes and changes in policy and application of methodology they have made as a group over the last 10 years should have humbled them by now.
There is nothing wrong with changing your opinion as a group or a member of a group, it is not a sign of weakness in your concepts it is actually a sign of strength and sincerity. Remember examples like Imam Shafi who changed 1/2 of his legal opinions when he traveled to Egypt. Less Partisanship and more loyalty to the Truth from wherever it comes. Lose the kibr (arrogance) and the riyyah (Vanity).

salams, I would like to comment about the attitude and poor islamic etiquetes I see time and time again from the leaders of mpac and their supporters. You continuously attack other muslim organisations in a rude un islamic manor that would be more suited to the journalistic methods of the sun newspaper. You should be constructive in your advice and criticism, remember that you are talking about your brothers in islam, they are not your enemy, you have attacked near enough every islamic organisation in the country in your rude childish style. When i read the many comments on these discussion forums, they speak in the same way you do; they are being sinful by going to such low levels of attack. Furthermore I find that you have a very arrogant style, you speak as you know everything, even though it is quite clear from what i have read of asghar bukhari and seen of him on tv, he hasnt got a great deal of knowledge when it comes to islam, speak with knowledge and humbleness, as islamic activists should veiw themselves as protectors and servants of this ummah. I do dua to ALLAH (SWT) that he guide all of us. By the way i too would like to see our mosques open to everyone and take an active role, but i do not support how you are going about it.

the mosques do not have a lack of money, they are generally well funded by the community. The dont need to take money for the government to pay for their imams to go on english courses. We have to be careful, it would be naive to think the governments only aim is to better educate muslims and keep them away from terrorism, its a great way of affecting muslim opinion by having greater control of our mosques. Mosques must be careful when dealing with the government, after all these are the people who went to war in iraq on a lie; and even though the majority of its people were against it

reponse to mr practical

just because someone hasnt given you a solution doesnt mean he cant criticise your solution to the problems in our mosques. Stop being childish and treat your fellow muslim like a brother as allah (swt) has commanded you. The tongue can lead you to great sin, so speak to others as you expect to be spoken to. I work in my local community with local kids giving them dawa, i dont feel i am special or above them, rather it is my duty to help my brothers and not look down on them. They may have a better chance of going to jannah than i have, as ive recieved guidance in my life where they havnt.

I find it pretty hypocritical that you call people childish, bad mannered and even ignorant and then tell everyone else here to speak with Adaab- get some manners yourself before you criticise others for their own lack of them!

How can you say "just because you dont have a solution yourself, doesnt man you cant criticise others"

Are you stupid! - of course it does! How can you complain about something when you cant do it better yourself??

response to Mr Practical and his friend who goes by the very descriptive name of 'trigger'(joking... grew up watching only fools and horses...please dont take offence)I made my point about adhab because you was being very rude and sarcastic about another brother who was making his point, you could have just explained why you think mpac's solution is good but rather you were sarcastic about a word that is of great importance and meaning in Islam. To advise a person to use hikmah is normal, he is just making the point that you should be responsible and wise in your actions as he thinks the method you are on isnt the best. You wasnt joking with the brother, rather you was trying to make him look like an idiot. To joke with your brother is not a bad thing, but you wasnt joking.In response to trigger,im going to try to explain this as simply as possible, i hope this helpsif i were to say calculate 456,789 X 16=you probably would know the answer off the top of your head, but if i told you the answer is 1, you would know that i am probably wrong without knowing the answer. Its kind of obvious, that you may be able to sense the failings of a persons solution to a problem, but not have a solution yourself. Doesnt mean you cant high lite it. If you read todays news you would notice there is story about how the government has reduced NHS deficits by cutting costs and building reserves to cover future shortfalls, in the bbc report they comment on the problems with this cost cutting operation, as do many other experts who have commented. They havnt put forward their own solutions, but does that mean they are not aloud to comment on the governments tampering with the NHS for political gains? I hope that i have enlightened you 'trigger'. As for mosques, i do think they need a change, i agree that mosques committees are failing in their duties to educate and advise the ummah...aswell as provide services to women..i agree with the problem...just not your solution. I think muslims in each comunity must engage with their mosque committees and try to advise them and work with them. Next time the mosque committee election comes up at my local myself or atleast one of my like minded friends will stand, and will probably win the seat as we do a lot of work our area and are quite well known. This way we will be able to affect policy in our local mosque with out creating fitnah, if young muslims did this in all of our communities we could make a real change. If i win a mosque election fairly what can the stereotypical 'old men' say against me.

Re Nozmul

Hikma is a used and abused term. When you use a word enough in a different context, it uses its original purpose and value.

Take the term “InshAllah” today many practicing Muslims use it simply to mean “if it happens , it happens, but I’m going t make no effort”.

How many times have I spoken to a Muslim and asked them to come to a certain march or give some money to a good cause, and heard them reply “InshaAllah”, and knowing full well that meant they were not going to do it.

You cant blame active Muslims for not taking it seriously.

It’s the same with no brainer answers like “Use Hikma brother” It really mans, I don’t have an answer, and am not going t think of one, but I do want to look and sound pious so let m use this no brainer term “Hikma”.

That’s like saying “Use wisdom brother”, and when the brother replies, “ok I will, what wisdom should I use?” … and getting a reply with no wisdom in it “I don’t know”.

Saying “Use Hikma” is like saying “make sure you breathe brother!” – its pointless saying it, of course you know that.

If you are going to say, use wisdom brother, you must provide the wisdom that is needed.

Claiming it is somehow a good thing to say, just because you have nothing better to say it is stupid in the extreme.

Cardinal Sin Of A Failure to Think

- I agree with nozmul hussain that there are ways of discussing matters without insulting and abusing one another. Just because we are angry with some things does not mean that we can take it out on others who are not the real cause of that anger.

Hikmah comes primarily from the quran and hadith and so is the hikmah we should all use.

Mr thoughtful

It seems you are not being very thoughtful at all.

Angry at something is an understatement. One is angry at something that causes so much harm amd must be so. If one is not angry, it simply means that you dont care about that thing enough.

If i were to insult you, you would be enraged. If I harm Islam, you complain that we should "keep calm"

You care about one more then the other is the only conclusion one can draw.

using tough language is often the only way to force change through, that or keep silent. One can polite to those who listen to politeness, what of those who do not?

You seem the silent type, others the vocal type. which is better?

Which is better, to be polite and effect no change, or be harsh and effect some?

As for Hikma being in the Quran, so is the word Donkey.

its about using it it in the right context and it making some sense. Being in the Quran does not make one have to repeat it at every opportunity like a parrot without any thought behind it.

From Cardinal sin

re: Cardinal Sin Of A Failure to Think:

I would like to ask you; how far have you got with your local mosque?

I would hazard a guess, if you are working in the mpac style you wouldnt have got very far with your local mosque unless they are active already

I didnt go into my views about how to deal with mosques before as i wanted to make an issue of people's adaab of discussion often being quite bad on these forums as they are quick to mock the person rather than just disprove the action or idea being put forward. Ive seemed to have not got very far with this issue sadly. Again, you have been very rude in your comment, instead of just making your point you use sarcasm to attack me and my intellect, just because i say the way you are doing it is not wise (i.e. not gonna achieve the aim = fail) doesnt mean i have to give you a solution myself for my first point to be valid.

In your last comment
when someone says use hikmah the point they are making is that what you are doing or the way you are doing it is not wise.

Now i will go into this issue of mosques, well how i think it can be tackled on a local level

In my local area, myself and some friends are involved with dawa to the youth, we run a youth club session and a circle every week at our own expense in order to guide the youth to islam, so we can help them and get reward for our selves. So you could say we have a place in the community and some level of respect. We decided to approach the mosque about some of our activities, they had heared about us from the community and offered to announce our circles in the friday khutba. The mosque recently started running circles for younger children, and asked us to get involved, we didnt take up the offer due to limited time and also because the brothers already running it seemed like they were doing ok. (i believe we had some influence on them setting up these circles). Our mosque is now providing services for the elderly and women with a new section of the mosque for them, so they are doing pretty well. We recently asked them if we can start a fortnightly kiyam ul layl session, the mosque didnt allow it for whatever reason, this is something that all mosques should allow. So our way of dealing with this (while temporarily doing from a house) is to build public opinion against the committee for this action, rather than resort to being rude and deregatory about the committee we let it be known to the elders and mosque goers in general, this in time will cause a issue for them as it is obvious we are right. We are doing the same thing you would do, its all about changing the public opinion in the mosque towards what we think is best, in the end this will affect their actions as they will need to be re-elected to the committee. Amongst my friends some of them will stand for joining the committee next time aswell as show active support for those who want to make the mosque more open, inclusive and proactive in providing services to the community it is meant to serve. You cant do any of these things if you want to act like the rebel and annoy everybody by being rude to them. You have to work in your community, not turn up out of no where and be rude, obviously people will react defensively. As for those old men who are on these committees often who dont want to do anything with the mosque, the solution for them is to vote them out or vote your own people in, you cant do this unless your community respects and trusts you, aswell as ofcourse actually know who you are.

Nozmul would like to hear your commens on this: http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/3717/1/

ok Nazmul we believe you.

whats the mosque and their address, please provide details of the chairman of the committee. I think it is great to see a mosque reform because young people have shown credability and gained influence. This should not be to hard for you as you are close the the Mosque.

once you have provided the number I will...

1. i want to congratulate them on their progress.

2. check the voting record of their MP. And what they have done.

3. see what their track record is on opposing the Iraq war, Rendition flights, Israels war with lebonon, terror legislation, determine if women are allowed on the committee, local drugs problems and last but not least what they have done for career advise.

4. see what they have done to stop young muslims being recruited by terrorists.

5. reach out to non Muslims to counter the growing islamophobia.

I promise I will use Hikma and adaab and not use the Quranic word donkey.

If you fail to reply, like all other muslims your comments will be judged as empty rejectionist apologising for incompetant and corrupt mosques while the Ummah burns.

I trust I havent offended you, but merely trying to validate your previous statements.

re: ayesaha marouf,

salams.

I just got in from a friends wedding registry, im quite busy today...so i may get a chance to listen to the mpod this evening. In general, accountability is very important in islam, its the way to redirect the misguided and expose the corrupt. Inshallah i will listen to it and tell you what i think.

Cardinal sin - you think that by agreeing with nozmul hussain that I disagree with you. You then go on to insult and make numerous assumptions about what I am talking about.

Please tell me the hadith where the prophet mohammed (pbuh)said be angry or perhaps tell the hadith where he said do not learn to hold your tongue.

There is nothing wrong with being angry but we have to make a dinstinction between anger and frustration. Just like there is a difference betwen touigh language and insult.

We can all feel frustrated that things are not happening as fast as we would like but that does not mean that anger will make things hapen quicker or that we will get what we want by being angry - tough language yes, anger no.

don't forget sometimes we deal with some who do and mean us great harm and they can toy with our anger and our feelings without it affecting them.

As for the word donkey being in the quran - there is hikmah in that also and something we can learn from.

re: madmullah

Im not going to put you in contact with my local mosque for a few reasons;
firstly because the mosque doesnt fulfil your list of expectations, so i dont expect you to be very nice to them, and you'l probably mess up our efforts with them, secondly i dont like how you speak to people, you are very simple in your understanding of the community which has led you to attack me and genereally be rude...getting used to it with mpac campaigners...
I agree with mpac that there is a major problem with our mosques in general- i agree on most of the complaints- but i differ on how to deal with them, and unlike some people on this forum i dont really consider my comments here as being even a small amount of my weekly dawa activities, as i work in my community with normal youth and not just sit here in cyberspace.
as for your points i'll go thru them;

the mosque had supported labour in the previous general election, but then a new commitee won elections and came in, so we cant attack them for that, in the local elections i think they were either neutral or gently sided with respect.

They havnt done much in relation to iraq war, palestine, lebanon etc, i dont think they know much about politics to do much, and also i suspect they dont think they have much role in these issues, which is not a good thing (before i am accused of anything, i take these issues very importantly and have spent time in the area discussing with the youth about these issues, aswell as taking part in demos, pickets etc..i know i could do a lot more though)


they are not really equipped to deal with the youth, therefore they cant do much about teaching against terrorism,

given that most of them cant talk english well, they havnt done much about islamaphobiaso in terms of what you ask they aint doing too well,

but unlike you my approach isnt to publicly attack them in a rude way as you have spoken about me at the end of your last comment, whoever is reading this, pls tell me if you think the end of his last comment is rude or not

mosque committees are a cocktail of different issues, there are people who are there just for position as you often high lite- that is true, these people will naturally be sidelined if active people can take up roles- and it will become obvious to everyone what is going on,then there are the people who are in capable of dealing with many of the issues, such as dealing with youth issues and generally having knowledge, often the people involved are just normal people trying to do something by helping the mosque, they are not equipped to deal with the youth because they are old and can not communicate with or understand the youth, or they just dont have a great deal of knowledge, especially when it comes to the political landscape..lots of people are scared their mosque will get shut down or branded radical, or they just dont understand politics, to deal with these problems- they dont need mpac to lecture and crucify them on tv by sending the 'stormtroopers', rather we need the muslims who are young and educated to realise they are part of the community and get involved- show them how to do it, rather than disrespect the elders.

A better campaign for mpac would have been to call out to young educated muslims to get involved with their local mosques and push them in the right direction...but that probably would cause many headlines i guess..not all mosques are like the one asghar is talking about in ilford...i know that mosque too, i was there a few days ago, not every guy on every committee is a close minded corrupt mini dictator like husni mubarak of egypt or the king abdullah of saudi, the difference being that we know dictators in the muslim world are evil cruel dictators who are making our brothers and sisters suffer daily and supporting western foreign policy- all we can do about them is account them and do what we can to support their removal....they are a long way from even the worst committee member...unless u think otherwise

as for abusing me,,,, i really dont like it, given that i agree with the problem and am involved in trying to do something about it in my area, we are considering doing our kiyams in a local church hall that we can hire to make the point in the area to build opinion, we do not have a fantastic relationship with the mosque- but we would like to affect change using 'hikmah' in dealing with them; so we will not use your style so they dont have ammunition to use against us...remember they are the ones who have the khutaba pulpit every week.. they can spread bad news very quickly and easily. I have nothing against campaigning against mosque committees, but it should be done with out having to shout out at people and being abusive, sarcastic, rude etc...just make your point and push it in the community

finally...to madmullah and his friends, dont make wild assumptions and annoying commemts, just make your point... as im sure if i met u in the street you wouldnt talk to me like that- partly cos i wouldnt let you talk to me like that, every person who makes a comment here is a brother/sister in islam, and just because they dont agree with you on your methods doesnt mean that we are apologistic stooges of corrupt mosque committees

finally , finally, out of interest, other than writing on mpac, what else are you involved in for the ummah?

i hope i have made my position on this matter clear as possible, i will listen to the new mpod soon, the subject of accountability is a vital issue for the ummah people often forget about, i hope i dont have to make an issue of adaab again,,, but i suspect i'l have to

re: aysha maruf

i have posted my comment on the new mpod as you requested, use the link below

im sure i will be making more comments as the discussion develops, let me know what you think
i think people on this forum have to be more open minded, and willing to disagree and discuss why without being rude to each other

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/3717/

Nasmul:

your a fraud.

and to post all those comments without actually listening to the MPOD is beyond belief.

RE: madmullah

i have listened to the mpod

i think you should take a step back and reflect on yourself as a muslim, how is it that you think it ok for you to just slander another muslim like that

i have been hajj 3 times since the age of 19, im now going to turn 23 in the summer, if you would like to slander me on this point you may, as you will be taking sins off my neck in the day of kiyamah.

if you are a member of mpacuk, then i fear for the future of the organisation

I am neither a member of Hizb ut Tahrir or MAPC.

I have reflected on both sides of the issue. Its a crying shame that both of the organisations dont communicate with one another.

Slander and Criticise , a great trait of a Muslim!

You guys have potential. I challenge you guys to come up North - so I can bang your heads together. In a time so much hatred around the world with Islam - we need solidarity.

Raise above your egos and talk!!!!!