Good stuff. Keep it up.

Well, MPAC, Muslim Feminists (men and women) and male chauvinists (who misinterpret the Qur’anic term Qwwam ie leader to beat their wives and force their daughters/sons to marry someone against their wishes), does it surprise you what is happening around us? To quote you MPAC, ‘If we look into the history books, our societies were ones which applied great ethics and morals derived from the Quran and Sunnah. It destroyed the concept of “what’s in it for me?” mentality and replaced it with “what’s in it for my community, my family and my children?”’

MPAC, we do not even need to sift through history books. I am in my late 40s and brothers and sisters in this age group, who come from families from Muslim societies (not countries because this will exclude Muslims from countries like India), will remember that what made our families strong was that there was one leader ie the father and mother’s role was of a vice/assistant leader. And there was an unwritten, but to be strictly followed, line of communication. Most of the problems were confided to the mother and she would resolve them with the help of the father. When we spoke to our parents there was decorum to be maintained. We knew what to say and what not so say. Mothers had special tactics to make the children feel how caring and loving their father was. Despite the fact that her role was of an assistant, in many ways she had far more powers than the father.

They made sure that they did not argue with each other in front of the children. If one was upset with the other the best policy was to go away from the scene until he/she overcame his/her anger. No one would have heard them saying to each other, “I love you” but the love they had for each other was so obvious. To be honest when I compare the expression of “I love you” to the love I saw between my grand parents (maternal and paternal) and the love my own parents have for each other, I find this phrase so shallow and meaningless.

To the people of my generation, as far as family behaviour, was concerned our parents were their role models. Unfortunately we have failed in becoming the role models for our children.

I remember as a teenager I fell in love with a relative of mine. I told it to my mum. Despite the fact that my father is a very friendly dad and has always been so, I did not have the courage to tell it to him. When my mother told it to him he smiled and said he has to speak to me directly. My mother came to me and smiling she said, “You will have to talk to your dad.” “Never” I replied. (Discussing such an issue was against that unwritten code of conduct or decorum that was in practice in most of the educated Muslim families. Same principles applied on girls). I was assured that everything would be done as I wanted but I was also warned never to go close to that girl again.

However, in today’s world where the concept of equality of sexes has been confused with identical roles and two leaders with equal powers have been introduced in the family system, chaos and unruliness was bound to take place. They care about their personal interests and egos than the welfare of the children. The sense and the desire of sacrifice, expecting ones reward from Allah, is jut not there. Unfortunately, what you have described in this write up, Muslims in this country or elsewhere are not safe from this. The two leaders in the family are trying to assert their powers resulting to disputes, separations and divorces and obviously the ultimate sufferers of this failure of family system are the children who then take their revenge from the society.

What will happen in a society where husbands and wives do not have any respect (there can not be any respect without love) for each other and children do not have no regard for their elders and teachers? What will happen in a school in which a teacher helplessly watches a child behaving badly but can’t take any action? How can a society become stronger where a light smack to my child warrants the Social Worker to separate him/her from me and that one little smack brain washes my child into thinking that despite all my sacrifices, him/her best well wisher is the Social Services?

Well done MPAC, this is good stuff.

Can you please take up more of this by now explaining the logical aspects of Islam.

This is an area seriously lacking, we fail to explain why and how we do things that the West confuses as radical behaviour.

For example, when we pray by bowing down, this is a form of excercise, when I was in Africa recently, a group of American female students were watching a Muslim prayer ritual but could not understand why Muslims bow down. It was explained to them that while a professional athlete takes 20 or so minutes to warm up, the Muslim prayer ritual achieves the same function in less than 5 minutes.

The writing and signing of contracts is an Islamic invention, the isolation of the sick from the healthy in hospitals again is an Islamic invention.

The logical aspects of Islam are too numerous to mention here, but the onus is on us to gather this information and share it with non-Muslims. It will go a long way in bringing about some form of understanding and better tolerance of humanity.

LOGICAL ISLAM Rules.

I am commenting on the entry above by MK about the good example MK received while growing up from the close adults of the family.

I fully support what has been said. In addition I want to make clear that I, as an English person, brought up by English parents, with English grandparents, going to English schools, had a throughly English upbringing in which, believe it or not, the various forms of respect described by MK also existed.

It is important for Muslims and the indigenous majority community as well, to look back to those better values and behaviour that existed each in their respective communities, in the not too distant past.

In the English case ( and this would also be the case for Wales, Scotland and Ireland too,) these values may be traced back to the major authentic teachings found in the Bible,both Old and New Testament, just as the better values of the traditionally "Muslim" families may be traced back to the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Qur'an does not bring a new fangled religion, but a confirmation of the teachings of the earlier Prophets to be found in the Bible, most notably, those of Abraham, Moses and Jesus.The only difference is that the Qur'an is unaltered, and its original revelatory text is with us today. It is fully authentic throughout.

Here-above lies an opportunity for real progress towards a peaceful, healthy and dynamic society that could actually achieve much good in the world without invading anywhere.

Almighty God made us different tribes and "races" so that we would recognise/ get to know each other (not so that we would despise each other) and the best of us are the ones with the most God-consciousness. (cf Qur'an Surah 49:13.)

One of the most relevant aspects of God-consciousness here, are humility and fearlessness. These enable us to recognise our own faults and failings as well as those of others, and to be prepared to learn from each other. They also enable us to realise that sometimes those we might be tempted to despise ( on both sides) are in some apsects of life, better than we are.

After all, Almighty God put all us different peoples on these islands for a reason. A major reason is to learn from one another:- where one community may have failed more, another community may have succeeded more, and vice versa.

Dialogue at all levels, especially informal dialogue, in the home, across the garden fence, on the landing, in the street and shop and work-place is both necessary and required.

Dialogue requires for the people talking to each other to speak the same language, and to be sober/sobr.
(Muslims, may have noticednotice how close that English word "sober" is to the Arabic "sobr" which means having patience and steadfastness - impossible under the influence of drinks or mind altering drugs.)


I hope and pray this small offering helps. Amin.

I totally agree with Denise Wan. Islam has indeed come to perfect the sublime morals. The prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H said: "I was sent to perfect honourable morals".

I agree with you Denise Wan. The problem is that no one in the West talks of Christian Values anymore. “Christian values” have been replaced with “Western Values”. How can Muslims be against Christian values? Had religion not been used for political gains and to fool the masses, there would not be any conflict between the three Abrahamic faiths: Islam, Christianity and Judaism (not Zionism). After all Qur’an makes it perfectly clear that it has been revealed to confirm what had been said in the Bible.

No matter what is being reported in the press and how some bigoted journalists are spreading disinformation about Islam and Muslims, there is a long history of how Muslims have coexisted with other religions in the world.

However, unfortunately, not only a common westerner even the Church in the West has compromised and has mixed the “Western Values” (I wonder if there is any value in coaxing the society into accepting anti-family culture). Unfortunately there is not a single thing in this forced conversion of the society from religion into secularism on which the Church has not compromised. And please forgive me for saying this sometimes I feel that the way the majority in the West react to Muslims’ strict adherence (not to what is being attributed to the militants) to Islam is nothing but jealousy.

The sad fact is that it is not only Christians but even Muslims have fallen prey to the anti-religion propaganda. They are blindly adopting Western/secular culture and the result is an increase in divorce rate among Muslims not only in this country but elsewhere in the world as well. The sole cause of this is nothing but the selfish behavior of men and women and disrespect husbands and wives have for each other.

A friend of mine, who, unfortunately, does not have good relationship with his wife once complaining about his wife said that his late mother used to treat with his father like this and this and this. I patiently listened to him and asked, "Did your mother go to work? Did she have to drop the children to the school? Did your father ever raise his voice on her as you do with your wife? Did she ever felt that her husband was not returning the love and respect she deserved?" Believe me he was speechless. How can I expect my wife to do all the household work and also keep the meal ready for me when I enter the house? How can I tell my children that our Prophet (Peace be upon him) said that paradise was under the feet of the mother and then insult my wife in front of them?

My wife does not work. This was our well thought decision when we got married twenty four years ago. And there has not been a single occasion when I have not reminded my children of the extraordinary sacrifice that their mother has made for them. Yes, as would happen with a single earning member in a large family and he too on a low income, it has created some economic pressures but Alhamdu Lillah, the peace this sacrifice has given to me and my family I could not get it even if I was earning million pounds.(Thanks God I have from teenage children to six year old child and even my non-Muslim neighbors praise of their respectful manners.) And let me make it clear that I am not on any benefit.

Firstly, well done MPAC - this is very timely.
Secondly, though, I would like to point out that those "Islamic principles" - "what’s in it for my community, my family and my children?" - are actually universal. You'll find them being espoused by Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Jews and even atheists like me. They are in fact the principles of community and they have been forgotten or laid aside in places where there is little sense of community, most especially the inner cities.
MK, nearly everything you say about your upbringing, like Denise Wan, I can honestly say too, even though I grew up in a secular, thoroughly English family.
My point is that what some people take to be Islamic values or Christian values are often actually nothing of the sort - nobody has the monopoly on good values and decent behaviour. Similarly, being secular does not equate to being immoral or corrupt or lacking in moral fibre. You do not need to be religious to be good.

If these are universal values why are our societies in western countries so full of individualism?

Because of Secularism our society has become so full of decay. This is because of the separation of state from religion, how does a secular individual tell between right and wrong, good and evil if his religion which is secularism cannot itself distinguish between the two?

JAB,

I agree with you that good qualities are not the monopoly of any community or an individual. There are good and bad people in every community, country and race. According to Islamic belief all humans are born with the spirit of good but they have also been given the power to chose between good and bad. This thing is displayed in our daily life. Call a liar a liar and he/she will feel offended. No matter how dishonest one may be but will not like to be lied to and cheated upon by another person.

I also agree with you that good practices, good behavior and the virtues of charity have been enjoined by all the religions of the world. The reason? According to Islam the roots of all world religions are the same. According to Islamic belief God has sent Prophets to all the races (countries/regions in whatever way you categorise it) in the world and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was of the last Prophets. This is the reason Muslims are strictly forbidden from insulting the religious personalities of any religion. Some Muslims scholars go as far as saying that Budha and Rama might have been the prophets of God and like Christians have started believing that Jesus was the son of God, Budhists and Hindus might have started regarding these personalities as reincarnation of God.

I agree with you that like those who believe in God, there are, indeed, good and bad people among atheists too. However, the real difference between atheism and religion is that religious teachings is do not change according to the fashion of the day. I hardly need to mention the anti-family fashion that is SOLELLY the product of secularism. Whatever good teachings you have been given by your parents, JAB, the basis of these is the religion that your religious ancestors might have once practiced.

In answer to "Answer to JAB":

You ask "how does a secular individual tell between right and wrong, good and evil if his religion, which is secularism, cannot itself distinguish between the two?"
Well, my religion is not actually secularism. I have no religion and secularism is the absence of religion. It is not secularism that makes decisions about right and wrong, but the individual, i.e. me. You assume that secularism is by definition immoral, but again, this is quite wrong. Probably like you, I do not cheat, steal, commit rape or murder, I give to charity regularly, I help strangers in need, I respect my elders and I am never cruel to either people or animals. In short, I am, I hope, a morally upright person – and yet, I am secular. (And exactly the same can be said for almost everyone I know.) The two are not mutually exclusive.

You ask "If these are universal values why are our societies in western countries so full of individualism?"
I would firstly suggest that people everywhere have a tendency to be individualistic.
Secondly, I would say that Western societies exhibit large amounts of individualism AS WELL AS what I would call "community values".
It is worth pointing out, though, that the self-centredness you see in Western countries is much, much more pronounced in the cities than it is elsewhere. This is probably because there is less of a sense of community in big cities, as well as more competition for jobs, wealth, accommodation, etc – but all of these features are common to large conurbations all around the world.

You say "because of secularism our society has become so full of decay". In a similar vein, MK talks of "the anti-family fashion that is SOLELY the product of secularism".
I would (of course) disagree. Social decay and family breakdown are not caused by secularism, but by a decline in moral standards – and again, the two are not the same. My father has been a committed atheist for over 70 years now, yet he is one of the most moral people I know. As MK says, "according to Islamic belief, all humans are born with the spirit of good but they have also been given the power to choose between good and bad"; that's ALL humans, not just religious ones.

MK, you tell me that any good examples set by my parents are based on the religion that my ancestors might have once practised. I have to say, I find this rather presumptuous. Again, it implies that there can be no morality without religion. I can only reiterate: there CAN be morality without reference to ancient texts; people CAN be good without believing in a higher being. You just have to believe in the innate goodness and worth of you fellow human beings – and believing that doesn't require a god at all.

Dear brother/sister JAB,

May the God Almighty guide you and all of us and give us the courage to chose what is right and reject what is wrong.

The morality (if you call it morality) defined by atheism/secularism changes according to the fashion of the day and the examples of this are numerous. On the contrary the concept of morality defined by religion does not change and has not changed for centuries. That is why the basic principles of all the religions are the same. And again this affirms Islamic belief that God has sent prophets to all the nations/races in the world.

Look how in the name of equality homosexuality (condemned by all religions) is being promoted and so much so that the Government does not feel ashamed in forcing the Roman Catholic Church to change its policies on adoption. Else it should close down the service it has been providing for ages. (The Government is not demanding its closure but this is what its stand implies) Do you not regard the promotion of this lewdness as anti-family? This is what the morality set by anti-religious lobbies and groups do. The anti-God system gives and murderers, rapists and thieves more rights than their victims. In an anti-God system if a thief gets hurts while trespassing into your property because you had taken some precautions to deter him, it is not him who is punished but you have to pay compensation to him.

Your assertion that, “You just have to believe in the innate goodness and worth of your fellow human beings” merely proves as true my belief as a Muslim that God Almighty has created human beings as good. Yes there are times when some human beings behave in an extreme satanic way its reasons are numerous (environment, lack of education or bad education and selfishness).

Whether I am being presumptuous in saying that the good examples set by your parents are the result of the religion of your ancestors, please ask this question to your parents and let them reflect and answer you with honesty.

MK, you talk of the "morality defined by atheism/secularism", yet atheism/secularism doesn't define any one morality; it is the atheist/secularist who defines his or her own morality, according to his/her own conscience.

As far as homosexuality goes, my own stance on it is that people ought to be able to do what they like with each other in private, so long as all concerned are consenting adults. (More generally, in my culture a bit of "lewdness" – defined as crudely sexual behaviour – from time to time may be no bad thing!)

That said, I do believe it is absolutely the Catholic Church's right to decide who adopts the children in its care; and if doesn't wish to place children with gay couples, I would agree with, and fully support, its decision. (Incidentally, I also think that more care should be taken of victims of crime and less comfort should be given to offenders. Compensation to thieves who injure themselves while thieving is obscene and televisions in prison should be strictly of the CCTV kind!)

You then talk of "anti-religious lobbies" and the "anti-God system". Whether or not the government is anti-religious or anti-God is up for discussion (although I doubt it, not least because the Prime Minister is a committed Christian), but what is important here is that you seem to conflate secularism with anti-religiousness. Again, I disagree with your entire premise.

You can be entirely secular in outlook and conviction, yet totally accepting of others' religions. I personally cannot believe in a conscious, omnipotent, judgemental god, especially one whom we're modelled after and most especially one whose existence seems to hang on words found in a book – it just seems too far-fetched and mythical to me. Yet I completely accept other people's desire or need to put their faith in such an entity.

I am an atheist, I am secular. Yet I am not anti-God or anti-religious and I am moral. These statements alone seem to me to expose serious flaws in your arguments.

Why does the poster say "My Britain" and "British Muslims" but have an ENGLISH flag in the background?

Why, when it refers to Muslims, does it show men and women holding hands with the opposite sex when Islam explicitly forbids this?

You are misleadingly giving the impression that being a British Muslim means compromising an aspect of Islam, which gives ammunition to Muhajiroon people who claim the statement is an oxymoron.

English flag? I see no English flag - look again.

Oh my the sin of holding hands - stone them!