| Masajid Silent As Pope Attacks the Prophet & Islam |
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| Friday, 15 September 2006 | |||||
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Muslim scholars and religious leaders in Kuwait, Turkey and Pakistan have criticised Pope Benedict XVI for his remarks critical of Islam and urged him to play a positive role in bringing Islam and Christianity closer. Ali Bardakoglu, head of the state-run religious affairs directorate in Turkey, said on Thursday that Pope Benedict XVI as "full of enmity and grudge" against Islam. He opposed the pontiff's planned visit to Turkey in November. Bardakoglu also demanded that the pope immediately retract and issue an apology for his remarks about Islam and his criticism of the concept of Holy War. The pontiff's remarks "reflect the hatred in his heart. It is a statement full of enmity and grudge", Bardakoglu told the NTV news channel on Thursday. "It is a prejudiced and biased approach." The controversy During a six-day visit to his native Germany this week, the pope hit out at Islam and its concept of jihad or holy war, citing a 14th-century Christian emperor who said that Prophet Muhammad had brought the world "evil and inhuman" things. "Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," he said on Tuesday in an address at Regensburg University.
Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi later said he did not believe the pope's words were meant as a harsh criticism of Islam. Bardakoglu, however, described them as unacceptable. "[The pope's] approach is a spoilt and cocksure point of view that looks down on the other. At times, we also criticise the Christian world for its wrongs, but we never defame either Christ or the Bible or the holiness of Christianity," he said. In comments to the Anatolia news agency, Bardakoglu said the pope carried the same mindset as that "of the Crusades" which arose from the Church view that Islam is the enemy. Kuwait In Kuwait, two high-ranking Islamist officials also called on Thursday on Pope Benedict XVI to apologise for his remarks. Haken al-Mutairi, secretary-general of the emirate's Umma [Islamic Nation] party, urged the pope to to apologise immediately "to the Muslim world for his calumnies against the Prophet Muhammad and Islam". Al-Mutairi hit out at the pope's "unaccustomed and unprecedented" remarks, and linked the Catholic Church leader's comments to "new Western wars currently under way in the Muslim world in places such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon".
The pope's statements amounted to "the pursuit of Crusades", he said. "I call on all Arab and Islamic states to recall their ambassadors from the Vatican and expel those from the Vatican until the pope says he is sorry for the wrong done to the Prophet and to Islam, which preaches peace, tolerance, justice and equality," al-Mutairi said. Sayed Baqer al-Mohri, head of the assembly of Shia ulemas, or theologians, in Kuwait, labelled the pope's comments "unrealistic and unjustified", and also called on him to apologise. "His unjustified attack on Islam and the Prophet Muhammad clearly contradicts his call for dialogue between civilisations," Mohri said. "It opens the way to animosity between religions. "We demand that the pope make a public apology" to help bring an end to animosity. Pakistan The pope was also criticised by Muslim scholars and religious leaders in Pakistan who urged him to play a positive role in bringing Islam and Christianity closer. Khurshid Ahmed, head of the Institute of Policy Studies in Islamabad, said: "It is very unfortunate that a religious leader of his stature is issuing statements which can fan religious disharmony.
"The Pope's attitude is very different from his predecessor. Instead of bringing Islam and Christianity closer, he is straining relations between the two religions," Ahmed said. "In the present political atmosphere such views can be exploited by those who are trying to malign Muslims and Islam. "We expect the Pope to play a positive role in promoting relations between religions and civilisations. "The Pope's views about the role of Sharia [Islamic law] and jihad are at variance with Muslim beliefs." Hafiz Hussain Ahmed, a leader of the Jammiat Ulema-e-Islam party and an MP, urged the Pope not to take inspiration from George Bush, the US president. He said: "The Pope is a respected personality not only for Christians but for Muslims also. He should not lower his stature by giving Bush-like statements." Shahid Shamsi, spokesman for the Jamaat-i-Islami party, said:"The Pope's statement was an attempt to jeopardise a remarkable unity displayed by Christians and Muslims against recent Israeli aggression in Lebanon". Source: english.aljazeera.net           Readers have left 60 comments.
Anon:
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The guy knows exactly what he was saying and why.
Just another conspiracy in the days of the Dajj system.
(1)
2006-09-15 00:59:11
badrzamaan:
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This clearly shows the utter negligence and inappropriate understanding of islam by the christian leadership.
These guys should read the history back about the crusades and see what are the atrocities the christian empire caused and the decent behaviour of muslims rulers such as Salhuddeen Ayubi (Rahimahullahi Alaik). Even at this current age, we can witness the murder and crimes by a practicing christian like George W Bush. We Muslims were forced to fight. Not that we are willing to commit suicide. What the solution the brothers and sisters have in Chechniya, Palestine, Kashmir and the such. This pope's remarks are rather ludicrous,sacrilige and absence of fact. Being a high command in a relegious arena, such comments will only inflame the fire rather than calming any hatred down. This shows the inferiority complex and the hatred that this pope had in mind about Islam and Muslims. These people are trying to cover the sun with thier palms. Stupid, idiotic thoughts.
(2)
2006-09-15 06:59:44
June Collins:
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I am a Catholic and I am an anti-war activist and I have posted comments on MPACUK before. I have read what the Pope is reported to have said and if it is all true (you never know if anything is true in the papers of course) - if he did say that - then all I can say is, what a stupid man he is. He is not speaking for me or any other Catholic who is a true Christian. I wouldn't want to be associated with anyone who made comments like that.
(3)
2006-09-15 07:15:07
Sags:
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If violence is incompatible with Christian values, then what were the crusades?
The Christian Extremists George Bush and Tony Blair have brought death and destruction to the world. Should we blame Jesus ? The Pope seems to only have selective memory.
(4)
2006-09-15 07:25:20
Truth:
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"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul" Doesn't really sound illogical, since god is supposed to be good and all. Whats the big fuss about?
(5)
2006-09-15 07:35:35
Basil:
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Blimmy mate they're all jumping on the on the "bleeding" Muslim bashing bandwagon Tom, Dick and Harry they are all taking a pop at Muhammed (pbuh). These infadel can not even leave him alone in his death bed.
What did the bent Pope say: "Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the Soul".. Don't make me laugh Onward christian soldiers marching as to WAR with the cross of Jesus marching on befooooooore. ALLELUUUUUYAH MAN PRAISE THE LORD AND HIS POP ....OOPS Pope HANDS OFF!! NAZIGERMAN RUTWEILLIER (well he was a member of the Nazi party)
(6)
2006-09-15 09:14:05
Basil:
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What did the Pope bent-dicked XVI say: "Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the Soul".. Don't make me laugh
Here is a list of incompatibilities none of which are Muslim and almost all are with CHRISTIAN imprint The following is a list of the most lethal battles in world history. This list will include both sieges (not technically battles but usually yield similar combat) and civilian deaths during the battles. ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS MARCHING AS WAR Battle or Siege Conflict Casualties Battle of Stalingrad World War II ~1,640,000–2,000,000 Brusilov Offensive World War I ~1,900,000 Siege of Leningrad World War II ~1,500,000 Battle of the Somme World War I ~1,000,000+ Battle of the Sit River Mongol invasion of Rus ~270,000+ Battle of Plataea Greco-Persian Wars 260,000 killed Battle of Verdun World War I 250,000+ killed Warsaw Uprising World War II 250,000+ killed Battle of Berlin World War II 230,000+ killed Siege of Tenochtitlan Spanish Conquest of Mexico 220,000+ killed Battle of Moscow World War II 200,000+ killed Battle of Shanghai Second Sino-Japanese War 200,000+ killed Battle of Kursk World War II 200,000+ killed Battle of Alesia Gallic Wars 150,000–200,000 killed Battle of Passchendaele World War I 190,000 killed Battle of Baghdad (1258) Mongol invasions 140,000 killed+ Battle of Okinawa World War II 125,000 killed Operation Mars World War II 120,000-270,000 est. killed Battle of KMan Mongol invasions of Japan 120,000 killed First Battle of the Marne World War I 100,000 killed Siege of Smyrna May 15, 1919 to September 9, 1922 100,000 killed Battle of Cambrai World War I 100,000 killed Third battle of Panipat War between the Maratha and Afghans forces 100,000 killed Third Battle of Nanking Taiping Rebellion 100,000 killed Battle of Leipzig Napoleonic Wars 90,000 killed Fall of Constantinople Turkish Invasion of Constantinople in 1453 90,000 killed Siege of Sevastopol Crimean War 70,000 killed Battle of Cannae Second Punic War 67,000–70,000+ killed Meuse-Argonne Offensive World War I 54,000 killed Second Siege of Saragossa Peninsular War 50,000+ killed Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa Reconquest 50,000+ killed Third Battle of Kharkov World War II 50,000 killed Battle of "The Saw" Mercenary War 45,000+ killed Battle of Gettysburg American Civil War 50,000 killed Battle of Kosovo Polje Turkish invasion on Balkans (1389) ~50,000 killed Battle of Waterloo Napoleonic Wars 47,000+ killed Battle of Legnica Mongol invasions in Poland 40,000+ killed Siege of Jerusalem First Crusade 40,000+ killed Battle of Sekigahara Japanese Battle during the Sengoku period 40,000+ killed Battle of Berezina Napoleonic Wars 40,000 killed Battle of Ebro Spanish Civil War 36,000 killed Battle of Guadalcanal World War II 35,000 killed Battle of Königgrätz Austro-Prussian War 30,000–35,000 killed Second Battle of El Alamein World War II 35,000 killed Battle of Hattin Crusades 30,000+ killed Battle of Iwo Jima World War II 27,000 killed Battle of the Bulge World War II 26,000 killed Battle of Thermopylae Persian Wars 20,000–40,000+ killed Battle of Teutoburg Forest Roman Wars in Germania 20,000–25,000+ killed Battle of Borodino Napoleonic Wars 15,000–20,000+ killed Battle of Inchon Korean War 15,000 killed Siege of La Rochelle French Wars of Religion 20,000+ killed Battle of Grunwald or Battle of Tannenberg Polish-Lithuanian-Teutonic War 10,000–15,000 killed Battle of Dien Bien Phu First Indochina War 10,000–15,000 killed Siege of Sarajevo Bosnian War 12,000 killed Battle of Jutland Naval Battle in World War I 8,500 killed
(7)
2006-09-15 09:34:08
MULLAH Hafeezud Din:
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Masajids are NOT silent. Insha Allah, although, my Friday lecture was to be on the Virtues of Sha'baan & Welcoming Ramadhan - I will now endevour to speak out against the Racist Pope and make my congregation aware. I also write for the Islamic Times and I have just emailed the comment to it's editor. We will struggle in this jihad and Insha Allah we will win!
(8)
2006-09-15 09:41:39
Christian:
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I am shocked and in utter disbelief at the popes comment, surely the conspiracy of the war on terror whom Muslims and like my self believe to be with the Islamic way of life. I am shocked and disappointed in the new pope (shame on him as he echos his historic predecessor false accusation which bought about the crusade).
(9)
2006-09-15 10:53:27
Zara:
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This is an outrage, but it many ways not surprising!
Where are all the teachings of Christ now?! So much for 'love' 'peace' 'compassion' and 'understanding' In all the terrorism that has been carried out in the 'name' of Christianity, Muslims have never succumb to carrying out such a wicked assult on the ROOTS of religion as we see today! Moreover, the Catholic Church would do well to heed the much-used Christian philosophy 'he without sin cast the first stone!' The irresponsible and insensitive remarks made in 'His Holiness's' 'statement only serves to further alienate Muslims and Islam in the eyes of the world. I urge you all to make your feelings known by emailing Pope Benedict at the following address: (His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI) Apostolic Palace Vatican City. av@pccs.va This is The Vatican Press Office and is considered the "official" means of email contact for the Pope. The above email address does gain a response.(apparantly) Also, try sending a copy to the Office For the Cardinal Secetary of State at: vatio26@relstat-segstat.va or, alternatively, Pontifical Council for Religious Dialogue: pcid-office@interelg.va If this were a politician, or a media outlet, we would all be protesting in unison! This is just another example of Islamophobia in its uglest form. The head of the Catholic Church should know better! Come back Pope John Paul II all is forgiven! At least he aoplogised for the Crusades! I would strongly urge that we keep all communication polite, civil and professional. Let us channel our anger in a constructive manner! We Muslims do not want to lower ourselves to their level by making personal insults. Keep to the issues at hand. Let us, again, try to be ambassadors for our religion, proving our enemies wrong! Fiamanallah!
(10)
2006-09-15 11:48:14
maliki:
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The Pope B 16s comment now confirm and officially validates the recent and ongoing wars are against all Muslims and Islam.
(11)
2006-09-15 12:07:46
lulu:
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Wait a minute....
"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," I can agree with that. The other bit is not his own words, its a quote that should be contextualised Remember the recent confusion resulting from Ahmadinejads' "wipe israel of the map".
(12)
2006-09-15 13:03:31
Abu Adill:
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I can see why they call him the ROTWILER.. he definetly knows how to bark like one.. The only personality he has degraded is himself and the vatican.. No damage Done to Muhammad s.a.w and his followers.. People like him have tried before and failed.. look at Bush he has been trying for the past 5 years.. but istead people today including americans call him a lier.. God is the one that gives Respect so no one can damage the respect of Muhammad s.a.w, when the Allmighty is the one that gave it to him.. people like pope benedick lose respect by disrespecting the prophet Muhammad s.a.w
(13)
2006-09-15 13:46:20
ROB:
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According to the pope christians are so peace loving they killed 120 million of their own people in the last century.
the pope and his people the christians of germany loved the jews so much they decided to send 6 million of them to meet their creator. the christians loved the african and native americans so much that they exterminated and enslaved hundreds of millions and the survivors were so brutally forced into christianity that today they do not know the language or who they are. the pope loved people so much that he sent crusaders to kill and injure millions of people so that jerusalem could be cleansed of non believers. the pope loved people so much that hundreds of thousands of muslims and jews were forced to become christians or they would be ethnically cleansed or tortured to death in the inquisition. the list is very long but as president bush says god told him to invade afghanistan and iraq as god talks to him and what if hundreds of thousands of iraqis are dead or injured because you are either with him or against him. this pope should know better as the blood has still not fully dried from the 6 millions jews his people killed and he is already starting a new campaign of villification. people who claim to be christians must really have a bad memory to accuse others of evil, when it is clear from history that they have the patent rights for the word evil.
(14)
2006-09-15 15:16:28
I. Thomas:
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Being a Catholic, I was shocked to hear what pope Benedict has said about Islam. He certainly did not make that comment on my behalf.
It really begs the Question why he would say something like this, knowing verywell that Christianity was spread through violence more so than Islam Rememeber the Crusaders Mr Pope!. Take at look at Modern day Golieths, Pea brained Bush, and tale wagging Tony Blair. Our previoue pope worked very hard to build a world which encourages dialoge differences and understanding. Mr Benedict just undone all that in a day, Well done!! Mr Benedict is an irresponsible man in a very responsible position, this reminds me of others like Bush and Tony. Someone needs to tell him to keep quite before he causes more damage.
(15)
2006-09-15 15:36:19
sajid hussain:
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I say pope has misunderstood about teaching of Islam and our beloved ProphetPBUH.that our beloved prophetPBUH teach us about peace and love too all humanity
(16)
2006-09-15 16:25:33
Zara:
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Mike: Bravo! Thank you for making us more determined in our quest to promote truth, peace and justice, alongside non-muslims who share these same beliefs(and there are many!!)You see our fight is for unity against injustice and lies that this country is being told everyday by the MSM(that's mainsteam media to you!)We are currently trying to excercise these rights democratically and the 'intelectual' remarks you make simply fuels us with more strength!The blatant cover-ups by the MSM affects Muslims(and non-Muslims) and we are working together to bring the truth out!It is slowly getting there..Something you should understand: we will succeed! InshAllah.Don't be fooled in thinking because there may be differences of opinion within the Muslim commuinity that this makes this struggle weaker.We all have that same goal at the end of the day and I can't thank you enough for making us more determined in our objectives to use the democratic proccess to our advanatage.'start by what is necessary, then do what is possible..and suddenly you are doing the impossible'
(17)
2006-09-15 17:05:47
June Collins:
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Zara, thank you for providing the e-mail address of the Pope. I was going to look it up and let him know how angry I am. As I said above, I am a Catholic and I certainly don't want to be associated with any negative comments about Islam. I am so angry at what he has said. It is very insensitive. As others have said here, many wars have been started in the name of Christianity, so I don't know why the Pope thinks he has the right to make comments about any other religion. I always hate it when warmongers such as Blair and Bush claim to be Christians, but to now have the Pope stirring up trouble, this really is too much. I hope he makes a very full apology very very soon.
(18)
2006-09-15 17:20:16
Athena:
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Oh for crying out loud - why is the Pope trying to jump on the Muslim-bashing bandwagon now - what the heck is his agenda? FFS!
(19)
2006-09-15 18:30:51
Zara:
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June: No problem! I am sure that there are many Catholics, like yourself, who feel uncomfortable about the Pope's remarks, not to mention shocked!
It would be useful for the Vatican to see that his comments have caused outrage, not just amongst Muslims, but within the Catholic commuinities. There has to be a distinction made between religion and its followers. If an individuals(s) commits acts of brutality under the guise of religion then the condemnation should ALWAYS be directed at those who have chosen this path and NOT at the roots of his/her faith. I am pleased to see that there are Christians who disassociate themselves with this unjust attack on Islam and I salute your courage for coming forward and making these views known.
(20)
2006-09-15 18:34:24
Zara:
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To George Whyte: There is PLENTY of criticism on Islam or haven't you noticed?!Practically every newspaper and news item on Islam or Muslims is lambasted with hateful propaganda!It is very obvious that mainstream media has an agenda: that is to hype up fear and prejudice amongst the average Briton(regardless of whether they may be true/accurate in what they report) and mysteriously remain silent when Muslims have been found to be innocent, or a serious doubt casts over their guilt!You only have to look at the language that is used by the MSM to see that their objective is nothing short of hate-mongering!Could they get away with this jargonised onslaught with the Black/Jewish commuities?!The answer to the above question will give you an idea as to the level of discrimination Muslims have to endure.The problem lies not with critising Islam, but the WAY in which it is viciously attacked in making that criticismOne only has to browse regular forums to examine the extent of ignorance and bigoted misconceptions of Muslim and Islam that is present amongst many Non-Muslims.On many occasions corrections have to be made, because of an arrogant few who take parts out of the Quran that they don't understand and subsequently show-off their 'new found knowledge' by making unjust and erroneous remarks.Only the uneducated and ignorant will make judgement and criticism on a subject he chooses NOT to understand!If there is a criticism of Islam from root level it is becaaue the person has failed to comprehend its message and ritual rulings in its entireity.Muslims do not criticise Islam as a faith because we believe that the responsibility lies with its followers to understand and live life according to Islamic teachings through our Prophet Mohammed(Peace be upon him.)If these beliefs are implemented with true sincerity, conviction and above all, full understanding, then the need for criticism will only become a necessesity when the Muslim himself has failed in his/her duty to fulfil the Islamic message it its purest form.Those who choose to deviate against the ethics and boudaries of Islamic teaching often find themselves carrying out injustices in the name of their religion, because of their ignorance of those teachings.This can be on a social or personal level.When all is said and done,everyone in the human race is tested for their intelligence and how they behave towards one another, whether that be Muslim, Christian, Jew or Atheist - ultimately, refecting the moral code and standads they have chosen to live by.
(21)
2006-09-15 20:11:15
MC:
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This is what I have just emailed the Pope (sorry for long paste)
Subject: Disgusted by Pope Benedict XVI's remarks: To Pope Benedict XVI I am shocked that you would express such unacceptable anti-Muslim sentiments at a time when Muslims the world over are being scapegoated as 'extremists' and 'terrorists' in order to benefit the US/UK's bogus 'war on terror'. Mr Bush and Mr Blair are so-called 'Christians' and they have the blood of hundreds of thousands of Muslims on their hands from the last few years alone - why did you not choose to criticise their murderous policies and point out that their behaviour is extreme (to say the least) for people proclaiming to be Christians? It is really disgusting that you would instead choose to stir up yet more ill-feeling towards Muslims - that truly is unforgiveable. Although it may not be the case, you have now given the distinct impression that you are yourself part of the West's agenda to depict Muslims as the problem in order to carry on their warmongering in the Middle East. How on earth can you justify speaking of Islam being 'violent' when in fact it is powerful Christian leaders in the West that are responsible for the most violence and destruction over the last few years - which any intelligent person can see is nothing to do with 'terrorism' and everything to do with grabbing much needed and fast-disappearing resources in the Middle-East. A 'fight to the death' over oil. You do not have to be a genius to work that one out. Your predecessor John Paul II wisely spoke out against Bush and Blair's wars - what a shame you have not decided to carry on his good work of promoting peace, but have instead chosen to side with the incredibly violent and deceptive agenda of dangerous leaders such as Bush and Blair - an agenda that seeks to portray Muslims as the 'enemy' for the incredibly trasparent goal of dominating Muslim countries. You just have to turn on your TV and you will see Iraq Afghanistan and Lebanon in ruins and threats to Iran and Syria. I was raised a Catholic and I am deeply ashamed of your words. Is it any wonder that Muslims worldwide believe they are witnessing a new Crusade against Islam? Christianity has its own VERY violent history and with 'Christians' Bush and Blair dropping bombs all over the Middle-East, this is showing no signs of changing any time soon. Is this why you said what you did? In an attempt to cover this fact up? I hope you will apologise very swiftly indeed for your totally hypocritical and trouble-making words.
(22)
2006-09-15 20:48:25
Me Again:
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Basil:
What did the Pope bent-dicked XVI say: ... This does not sound very respectable, would the Islamic world now protest to Bilal for the above comments? Heck no...that's not how it works. We only expect others to respect us.
(23)
2006-09-15 20:59:41
Kebab roll:
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I think the great Phallicy should burn his script so we can see what colour the smokes come out of it, so to prove his point.
(24)
2006-09-16 00:19:42
Jozka Morozov:
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I am sure that the admin on this site is very careful to the offensive language shown towards His Holiness Pope Benedict as well most Christians, like me and remove them or even ban them but let's be thankful we live in a democrat country.
I think that all should actually read the whole lecture, rather than taking bits and pieces and drawing conclusions from that because they miss his point. His Holiness should not apologise and make clear that he has no more intention of talking about it. He did not incite hatred nor promote violence nor encourage anyone to do so, so why all the fuss? When did freedom of speech become illegal? Also note to all posters on this topic, the stats provided by Basil are inaccurate to point where he refers those figures to 'Christian Soldiers', even though most of the major wars, i.e. WWI and WWII were not incited nor endorse by Christianity, remember, the states are secular, for example Hitler and Stalin both rejected Christianity, they had their own ideology. You forgot to add that Christians made a big sacrifice for freedom, freedom for the present civilisation.
(25)
2006-09-16 01:08:23
maliki:
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i would like to share this Statement from The Guardian Woodsted:
Everything I've read has been full of hate those views conveyed by non Muslims that have lost any clear rational on things discussed and seem to be appraised by people that only want to discredit Islam. I myself am a Christian and have read the Quran and personally see many good things that have come about through Islam. Practising Muslims have a lot more in common with practising Christians then we want to accept. Whenever the topic of Christs life as arisen in many a discussion with my Muslim friends they have always had deep rooted respect and reverence for Christ. At times I have felt even more so then certain so called Christians and Jews that still chose not to believe in Christ, the very people that instigated his crucifiction. Why do Muslims hate the west, why do they want to fight us, a simple answer look at the world around us. The oppression and injustice being perpretated upon muslims by us or our friends. Which at some point will ofcourse ferment into resistance and yes extremism. The Quran directs its patrons to fight injustice. When you see your family killed, or objected to daily humiliation you would want to do something about it. I'm sure most of will agree with that though sadly only when it suites Israel or any other western nation ravaging another sovereign country for its own ulterior motives. We have supported dictators across the Islam world, Saddam himself was one of those, people like the Shah of Iran, many Pakistani military Dictators, others in Central Asia and ofcourse in the Arab world seen as oppressive western puppets. We keep going back to Islam?s violent history that is interesting as all faiths have had a violent history in order to insure their survival. Christianity is no exception have we forgotten the crusades that were also carried out in the name of faith, or how about Jesus? crucification ordained by the Jewish Priest's, or President Bush's religious rhetoric about the fight between good and evil is that any less fanatical. Or killing millions of people in the name of liberty and freedom, is that not violent. Maybe not as its carried out under bullshit legal legitimacy, couldn?t one incorporate this or any other western misadventure such as colonising, imperialism, the missionaries, or slaves as part of Christian history. Which probably sounds absurd so does repeatedly calling Islam violent, as there are many examples or parallels one can draw with violence carried out by Christians in the name of their faith. It is a duty upon all humans to fight oppression, a hypothetical situation lets say America was invaded and occupied under the shroud of liberty by Muslims. I?m certain we would all be practising biblical vengeance, an eye or an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Something that is being practised by the Jews in Israel sold to the western world as a neccesity for its survival. Though sadly when the Muslims have done it, it?s always been thought of as violent that really is funny. Killing civilians in any manner whether you use a f-16 or a suicide bomber their both forms of terrorism. Perhaps we should be critical and analytical of all faiths pursue everything with the same vigour, and this trend of disparaging Islam is nothing new as Islam has been misunderstood for 14 hundred years these people are no different to the orientlists, the only thing I see in this world is the outright rejection of Muslims and I hold the people of Islam in high esteem even with such odds they still hold strong that in itself says something about Islam. Western intellectuals have always carried out a personal crusade against Islam and deceived there own people in believing fabricated or exaggerated views.
(26)
2006-09-16 01:42:11
question:
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Have any of you actually read the lecture in full or are you all just being outraged at the contextual extrapolation you're being fed by the various prejudicial media sources such as this site?
(27)
2006-09-16 06:35:53
Tony Hearn:
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Whoah! Please, please everyone, wait a minute. You're all rushing to jump on the bandwagon of outrage against the pope, but how many of you have actually bothered to read his speech or examine the context in which he was speaking?
Firstly, he made it quite clear that these were not his own words - they were originally spoken hundreds of years ago; secondly, he was talking about the incompatibility of violence with religion in general, not just Islam. His comments have been hugely misinterpreted so please lay off and calm down. Answer me this: why are Muslims the most easily offended people in the world? (Don't be offended by that! It's a serious question - I want to understand.)
(28)
2006-09-16 09:43:49
kuma mako:
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Why are you guys obsessed with israel and the middle east?
I notice there's nothing on darfur, yet again. Is israel the only matter that preoccupies muslim minds? Quite frankly, i'm sick and tired of the middle east. There are other conflicts in the world which don't garner any attention. Seen any reports about Congo recently? Yet, 3 million people have been killed in the last 8 years. I wonder what would have happened if that number of people had died in the middle east. Just wondering......
(29)
2006-09-16 10:09:49
Zara:
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If the Pope is stating that his words have been taken out of context, then surely the same could be said for him!
He claims the words that have caused so much controversy are not his own..yes that may be true, but if Emperor Manuel II was in "dialogue" with a 'educated Persian', one begs the question, WHO is this mysterious Persian that he is referring to? And more importantly, where is the REST of the debate..?! There are always 2 sides to an argument. The Pope is merely voicing the 'opnion' of a Christain emperor who had his own agenda with Islam. It seems that both Benedict and Manuel did not bother to take the trouble to STUDY and UNDERSTAND Quranic teachings, but rather ignorantly(or by design) took parts of the Quran and use it for their political/over-zealous ends! This practice occurs very often, even to this day! The average person reads a part they don't like the sound of and decide to make a 'intellectual' critique based on their misconceived judgements and lack of full understanding. Muslims are expected to read the Tafsir(explanation) of the passages in the Quran so as to gain a full understanding of the verses they study. This avoids mistakes and misinterpretation of the holy scriptures. It is very dangerous and foolish for a non-Muslim to assume they are somehow qualified in making full anaylsis of Islamic law, unless they have studied Islamic theology for themselves.
(30)
2006-09-16 20:26:05
Kebab roll:
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"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye" Matthew 7:5
meaning :How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there’s a huge plank stuck in your own ?")
(32)
2006-09-17 00:29:25
Joseph Lanigan:
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I am a Christian. I understand that Muslims are offended by what the Pope is supposed to have said. Fine. Denounce his "errors". Cite every act of violence perpertatred by Christians against Muslims, other Christians or any other group. Just grant me two requests so that I may still harbour some hope of co-existence between Christians and Muslims.
First, spare me the lie that history knows of no aggressive wars waged by Muslims. Second, denounce violence perpertrated by Muslims over this "insult" as loudly as you have denounced the pope for his statement.
(33)
2006-09-17 11:08:29
zara:
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To 'Theo'..and like-mind!
It's NOT the religion that is the problem, it's SOME of the follwers! There are many who choose to protest peacefully and through the democratic processes, but if you don't want to look beyond the steryo-typed image that is clearly your problem not ours! Think before you make smart remarks! You only show show up your ignorance! I don't know what is more embarrassing, those with blinkered predjudices who make foolish statements or Muslims who don't know how to channel their emotions in the right way! I have noticed that there are posts MPACUK have not been published online(reasons best known to themselves.) I don't blame them! Half of the remarks are offensive and do not need to be! If you cannot contribute in a civil manner, go elsewhere to post uneducated drivel!
(34)
2006-09-17 14:00:31
Jozka Morozov:
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Just a few followers but even with a few of it's followers, violence is still high enough to make the news, i.e. two Churches in the West Bank have been firebombed, two Christians killed in Iraq and a Nun killed in Somalia.
Religion of peace? I don't think so.
(35)
2006-09-17 14:44:41
Basil:
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Athena
In reply Old Habits die hard! What is the Pope's Agenda to take a POP at the Prophet? Of many one is to show the Zionazi cabal and sucking up to them that he now has new credentials in line with them and that they can stop referring as that young/old Rat who was a signed up Nazi member. In simple terms he is asking the Zionist cabal to give him membership into their club. The Pope has a tradition of belonging to fascist groups
(36)
2006-09-17 15:15:12
Basil:
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Hi Pope
"You shall not press down upon the brow of labour this crown of thorn. You shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold!" The Muslims will not be crucified not by you or by Tony behind the Bush or the Zionist cabal Think again if you think you can get away gat away with it
(37)
2006-09-17 15:54:44
Zara:
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'Jozka'
One cannot criticise a religion because of a misguided few! If you took the trouble to read and study the roots of Islam properly instead of taking INDIVIDUALS as 'examples' then there would no need for you to use lame excuses for your prejudices..which you clearly have! If you want to start with 'examples' how about the 'Christian' Serbs??! 'Christian' IRA? 'Christian Crusades' some 'Christian' priests who abuse children'? Or your memory is only selective towards Muslims?! Think you need to examine your 'argument' with more maturity! Those who tarnish a WHOLE religion because of a demented minority have serious problems! Grow up!
(38)
2006-09-17 16:15:10
Bob Hill:
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Well I am astounded. Have any of you read the whole of the lecture? If you had then you would realise that he was quoting, yes quoting medieval emperor. Did he do it to deliberately piss off muslims? No, did he realise that there would be the outrage and violence we have seen. More than likely, but then I doubt that any of the muslims who are burning effigies or firebombing a church in the west bank have actually taken the time to read the lecture and understand the point. In fact by burning effigies of th epope, fire bombing a church in the west bank they are reverting to type, ie violent whenever they feel that Islam has been insulted, thus reinforcing the view that Islam is not a peaceful religion. Also for Zara to suggest that the Pope knows nothign about the quoran, well I am pretty sure he ahs read it and the Torah, being in his position. I agree with kuma mako too. Why is it if we criticise Islam we are accused of attacking and insulting it yet anyone can say what they want about the Pope and Christianity.
(39)
2006-09-17 17:03:54
zara:
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Well I have read it and I can understand why Muslims are angry..this "dialogue" between Manuel II and the "educated Persian" was originally 26 dialogues in all!!
WHERE is the response to the Emperor's comments??!! It seems that 'His Holiness' only wants SELECTIVE parts of this "dialogue" known to the public. Like I said before there are always 2 sides to an argument! Unless of course there is another more covert agenda.. Freedom of speech is fine as long as you are able to take the consequences of that speech! What does the man expect?! He chooses to delivery this 'lesson in religious history' 1 day after the anniversary of 9/11, knowing full well that this is a very sensitive time and that there is already a great deal of ignorance and prejudice towards Muslims as it is! You are trying to tell me that was not timed deliberately?! Furthermore where was the balance to his speech? Fine criticise Islam, but what about playing fair? He could have very easily have added that most Muslims are peaceful,law abiding citizens and denounce these acts of fantcism.. If you want to talk about criticising a religion then start with your own first! Christians themselves share enough of their own guilt in blood-letting throughout the ages to be able to cry.. "holier than thou!" Let's remind ourselves that it was the head of the Catholic Church who started criticsing Islam, not the other way round! True Muslims would not attack Christianity by attacking the Christian saint Paul, for example..without giving FULL historical account of the background. Anything less would warrant an apology and quite rightly so!
(40)
2006-09-17 17:49:15
Basil:
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Joseph Lanigan
“Get together like brother, and keep each other in check like strangers” Co-existence, or the hope of it, is not pursuit by naming calling people liars. I for one will not lie and if found mistaken I will apologise unreservedly I wilfully and gladly will grant you your two wishes and go even further The first wish; so that I am not accused of lying or bias, I kindly request that you recite the truth as you see fit detailing "aggressive wars waged by Muslims". Educate me so that I may learn to agree with you. Second wish; I would stand shoulder to shoulder with you and condemn ANY violence arising over this, as you rightly noted, "insult" directed at Islam
(41)
2006-09-17 20:52:53
bob:
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WHY should the pope apologize for quoting what someone said hundreds of year ago?
Also why should the pope apologize for something thats true. Anyone only has to read islmaic books to see how voilent muhammed was. The hadeeth the compilation of the traditions of the prophet Muhammad of Islam is almost about 100 hadeeths regarding jihad. And if you look at every single one of them, every single one of them has the sword war or a military effort. And in the end of the expedition, jihad expedition, he said now I resort to the jihad within, the jihad that is within, the self struggle. The prophet Muhammad was a warrior. He fought in 78 battles, 77 were offensive. And he ordered the assassination of his opponents, he gloried in the killing of his enemies. These things are all establishable from the Islamic texts. Terrorists are taking the teachings of the Koran and the teachings of Islamic theology and law that mandate violence and are running with them. And it is very difficult to formulate a case on – solely on Muslim ground to say that that’s illegitimate.
(42)
2006-09-17 20:56:32
Basil:
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The Rev. Daniel A. Madigan, rector of the Institute for the Study of Religions and Cultures at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome said that the main focus of the speech was that:
"If we are really going into a serious dialogue with Muslims we need to take faith seriously." Referring to quote from the emperor, he said: "You clearly take a risk using an example like that."
(43)
2006-09-17 21:48:05
Basil:
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The Rev. Robert Taft, a specialist in Islamic affairs at Rome's Pontifical Oriental Institute, said that it was unlikely that the pope miscalculated how some Muslims would receive his speech. Taft said:
"The message he is sending is very, very clear, Violence in the name of faith is never acceptable in any religion and that (the pope) considers it his duty to challenge Islam and anyone else on this." .... and any one else Okay I say he should start with his own Bush and Blair who regularly talk to their God (Christian if I may add)and are on a crusade of the willing against the Muslims
(44)
2006-09-17 21:58:36
Basil:
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Salih Kapusuz, deputy leader of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Islamic-rooted party, said Benedict's remarks were either
"... the result of pitiful ignorance [about Islam and its prophet or, worse, a deliberate distortion.] ... He has a dark mentality that comes from the darkness of the Middle Ages. It looks like an effort to revive the mentality of the Crusades... He is going down in history in the same category as leaders such as [Adolf] Hitler and [Benito] Mussolini."
(45)
2006-09-17 22:00:24
Quote:
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Haluk Koc, deputy head of the secular Republican People's Party Turkey, said:
"The pope has thrown gasoline onto the fire ... in a world where the risk of a clash between religions is high."
(46)
2006-09-17 22:06:32
My comment:
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You with your own mouth have confirmed that you are a rat
Now Stand and APOLOGISE like a man Pope what ever
(47)
2006-09-17 22:15:59
Bob Hill:
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Maybe most mulsims are law abiding types but there are many when they protest sure don't seem to give this impression. You know what on British television there is more than enough satire taking the piss out of christianity, the pope etc and I don't ever see christians on the street burning effigies etc. I wonder what would happen if someone did a satire of Islam?
As for condeming acts of violence there is always a rider, a typical response to terrorism and suicide bombings seem to be "We condem them but we can understand it." Going back to a point I made. Have you seen "The Life of Brian"? Many Christians might see it as blasphemous, but hey no calling for Monty Python team to be killed. What would the response be if a similar film was made satiring Allah? You tell me? The thing is I hear how the west is attacking Islam - the usual excuse for suicide bombers - but for the last 20 od years it seems to me the Islamic suicide bombers have been attacking the west in the name of Islam unprovoked. They do it because they DON'T LIKE THE WEST and no other reason. I however never see outrage from muslims when there is a large attack ie 9/11 or the London bombings, but a few cartoons or a lecture and there are marches in the streets and effigies burnt with death threats. Sorry but I can't see how a few cartoons of Allah can be more outrageous than mass suicide attacks against innocent civilians.
(48)
2006-09-17 22:25:09
Islamic Torch:
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Well I think I should be given the job of the advisory to the pope, if that was the case, lets put it this way he wouldn't have been given a passage out of a 14th century Byzanite dictators views - I would have given a passage out of the Goldilocks and the 2 bears -
ah before smart university buffs try to send your answers on postcards and correct me and say it was the 3 bears - it was the case but one died of food posioning - if my memory serves me correctly he ate a 14th century Byzantine emperor who made mockery of the Prophet.
(49)
2006-09-17 22:43:45
The Trinity:
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Hail the Emperor Tony
Hail Hitler Bush Hail The Pope Rat-singer One for all and all for one
(50)
2006-09-17 22:54:04
zara:
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Bob:Your statements are the very reason why I have made the remarks that I have, but it seems that it falls on deaf ears!Islam is very rich and has a somewhat complex history that is very easily misunderstood and misinterpretated when 'examined' without having access to the full facts.It is good that you have taken the trouble to read up on Islamic history, but reading without explanation is insufficent.As I have explained many a time before, FULL understanding of events and circumstances of history(and culture) has to be anaylised in depth, not merely scratched on the surface.The wars that the Prophet supposedly 'waged' are in fact,completly taken out of context.Islam is NOT a religion that goes on Jihad rampages despite the misconception from some non-Muslims.The wars fought during Islamic history need to be examined in its entirety to appreciate the situation surrounding the battles of the time.The Prophet did not carry out acts of aggression, unprovocated. This would be in total contradiction to the commandments of the faith.I suggest you contact a thelogian who can further answer your many queiries or issues you hold with some(or all of Islamic culture and practices)I can provide with information/contacts should you wish to further your knowledge.Islam IS a peaceful religion in its teachings.. it condemns aggression and killing of innocent life. It is also important not to make judgemets and presumptions based on text alone, nor criticise a religion because of those Muslims who are ignorant of their own faith and follow whims for their own personal ends.Unfortuately, there are groups/factions of Islam(or claim to be!) who carry out aggression that is completely in opposition to the origins of Islamic behaviour and moral code of ethics.The recent attacks by 'Muslims' on churches in the West Bank and the brutal killing of a nun in Somalia is, without doubt, a disgrace and unjustiable acts of aggression.As I pointed out in one of my previous posts, the problem with some Muslims is their lack of maturity and ability to manage heightened emotions in a constructive manner.This, however is NOT the widely held parctice of mainstream Muslims who are, are indeed peaceful and law abiding.It would not be fair or correct to say that because of a minority the whole of the Islamic community should suffer or be subject to injust prejudice as a consequence of the twisted actions of a few!
(51)
2006-09-17 23:57:06
zara:
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Bob:With regards to your most recent post..I agree that some Muslims over-react and the emphasis should be made in protesting peacefully.Prophet Mohammed himself had been subject to humiliations and ill-treatment at the hands of his ememies, but always responded with dignity and calm.Muslims are supposed to lead their lives by his example, but how many really practice this in reality?As for 9/11, I did hear very recently, in fact that many Muslims protested against the attacks on the WTC, but as usual, the mainstream media is only interested in 'juicy'stories that feeds on people's fears and prejudicies!American(and British MSM) have come under great crticisim, especially in recent years, for not only 'selectively' reporting news, but deliberately distorting it in order to mislead.I believe that if it can be proved, beyond reasonable doubt, that Muslims are responsible for crimes they are accused of, then "not in our name" demonstrations should be organised and encouraged in order to disassociate true Muslims from hypercrites, in effect!As for the whole argument on what constitutes "freedom of speech" and should it be allowed even when offence is caused, this is something that has to also be approached with maturity and reasoning.As with everything, there should be boundaries..boudaries of taste and decency. One cannot have laws to will-nilly appease "freedom of expression" without there being a culture of responsibility for one's actions and respect for others. Do we really want to breed a culture that relies on an anarchic way of thinking or one that prides itself on democracy, whilst keeping in mind the need for ethics and morality as a crucial part of that process?
(52)
2006-09-18 00:58:16
Bob Hill:
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You make me laugh, all you can come out with are sarcastic comments.
Oh I saw on your front page, muslim men attacked muslim women handing out leaflets saying that women can pray in the mosque. Hmmm, and why did they attack them? Because their bigotted views and interpretation of Islam, and where did this come from? Passed down from the elders. You can't handle anyone saying anything about your faith unless it is complimentary.
(53)
2006-09-18 07:06:23
Basil:
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Deputy Leader of the Muslim Brotherhood Mohammed Habib (Egypt)Saying:
"I want to emphasise that the remarks that came from the Pope today is a retreat from what he said in his lecture on Tuesday in Germany and this is a good step towards an apology. Despite that it was not a clear apology towards Islam and the Muslim people."
(54)
2006-09-18 07:20:43
Basil:
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Imam Maulana Belayet Hossain saying:
"Mohammad never fought to expand Islam, he only fought when he was attacked, when Jews and Christians or any other religion attacked him. Only then did he fight to save his religion." Dr Mahathir Mohammad, former Prime Minister of Malaysia, saying: "I am rather shocked at this selective loss of memory about the past. Surely he cannot have forgotten that Christianity was spread throughout Europe with force. This Pope has not said anything good about Islam or about the Palestinian issue. And now he has made a statement that I am afraid Muslims will not take kindly to." ****************************************
(55)
2006-09-18 07:28:37
Basil:
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Hafez Hussain Ahmed, a leader of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal, an opposition alliance of six religious parties, saying:
''We respect and esteem him (Pope Benedict XVI) as a religious leader. We, therefore, regret the fact that he has given such a statement which is unbecoming of his status. U.S. President Bush has already declared that this is a crusade against the Muslims. We believe that this statement (of Pope Benedict) will lead to a clash of two civilisations, because the Pope, despite being a religious leader, has bracketed himself with Bush.''
(56)
2006-09-18 07:36:17
Another Trinity::
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The Holy Father Rat-singer
The Holy Son Tony the illegitimate son of Zion And ....The Holy Spirit ex-alcoholic Bush *****************************
(57)
2006-09-18 08:23:53
Owen:
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OK. Perspective here is the key. Firstly, well done to the BBC for giving the full facts in this. These words were not the Popes words. In fact he made it clear he was quoting a 14th Century Christian Emperor. It seems it does not take much to arouse anger in the Muslim world and their reaction is very, very frightening from several points of view. There has been two apologies now to words that were not his and STILL it’s not good enough. Where is Islamic forgiveness? Where is tolerance to history. Can we not talk about the past for fear of violent protest? By the way, I saw images of the head of my church being Burned by Muslims. He is a very important figure to me and although I may not agree with some of his words I respect and pray for him as the head of my church and faith. Do you not think that perhaps anti Christian slogans and burning images of our Holy Farther is just a bit of an overreaction to a quote from history? So, who's going to apologise to the Catholic faith for this? I can guarantee that those violent reactions and words have already been forgiven and Catholics will not force a single apology, let alone two apologies. You need to calm down and learn tolerance and forgiveness perhaps then we can live in peace.
(58)
2006-09-18 10:33:16
owen:
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OK. Perspective here is the key. Firstly, well done to the BBC for giving the full facts in this. These words were not the Popes words. In fact he made it clear he was quoting a 14th Century Christian Emperor. It seems it does not take much to arouse anger in the Muslim world and their reaction is very, very frightening from several points of view. There has been two apologies now to words that were not his and STILL it’s not good enough. Where is Islamic forgiveness? Where is tolerance to history. Can we not talk about the past for fear of violent protest? By the way, I saw images of the head of my church being Burned by Muslims. He is a very important figure to me and although I may not agree with some of his words I respect and pray for him as the head of my church and faith. Do you not think that perhaps anti Christian slogans and burning images of our Holy Farther is just a bit of an overreaction to a quote from history? So, who's going to apologise to the Catholic faith for this? I can guarantee that those violent reactions and words have already been forgiven and Catholics will not force a single apology, let alone two apologies. You need to calm down and learn tolerance and forgiveness perhaps then we can live in peace.
(59)
2006-09-18 10:34:20
Basil:
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Question who in MeAagain? Identify
In reply I do not know how to be rude but alas that is the best I can do Respect for your knowledge is earned and if the smoke offends you then ask yourself where is the fire When you discover the fire please do us all a favour, don’t drop a guided missile on it, just douse it/him with a bucket full of cow urine to quench it/him Problem solved! Thanx
(60)
2006-09-20 19:58:36
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