A war against Syria & Iran? Surely you mean a Syrian and Iranian war against the Lebanese, the Iraqis and the Turks. Of course the road to Jerusalem meanders through Beirut, Bahgdad and Istanbul so it is no wonder that Syrian and Iranian sponsored & directed forces should be launching attacks in thos countries. But just how many Muslims have to die to save the Muslims?

i am a non muslim and i have a mind of my own..I can freely admit that i fear islam..this fear didnt come from the media it came from reading various books about islam..in islamic countries non muslims are not given the same rights as muslims..christians are not allowed to preach..churches are not allowed to be erected..what rights are muslims in the uk fighting for?? why are sikhs and hindus quite happy here??Muslims have the same rights as anyone else,,..so as a non muslim i could be considered an islamophobe but with good reason..

[quote=m]this fear didnt come from the media it came from reading various books about islamquote]

That is the media. You've allowed yourself to be brainwashed by haters.

That is the media. You've allowed yourself to be brainwashed by haters.

I think the people that are brainwashed are the people that believe in a higher being anyway back to the thread..What rights are being taken away from muslims?? What religion teaches that war on islam is their religious duty??Doesnt Islam teach that it is their duty,,by ANY means to further the Ummah??Islam is the sqaure peg and the uk is the round hole..

Islam is a threat and Biblical Christianity & it's spread is the anwer to that threat

The article totally ignores the idea that what the non muslim is reading or hearing on the news is fact not fiction and that a segment of the muslim population wants to take over and "strike fear in the hearts of the unbelievers" koran 8.60 also there is a stealf jihad going on all over the world trying to stop us non muslims from pointing out the facts that this is deeply entrenched in Islamic teachings and when you deny it , it just makes it worse when the government denys it and come up with appeasement policy's this infuriates the non muslims. but you never focus your misguided anger on the people like Anjem Chauldry the totally brainwashed nut job who gets all his authority from the koran and suna leaving you islamicly without a leg to stand on cos its true he tells the truth so you cant say nothing or else you'll be deemed a kafir your self by him and his cronies, instead you blame the people who report on them e.g. 10000 terrorist attacks since 911. source "thereligionofpeace.com" so please tell us non muslims what is your reason to exist as a group seems to me you are totally missing the point or you are willfully deceiving people an imperitive called Al Taqia lying to protect Islam an example of this is "Islam is a religion of peace" also "Kitmen" an example of this is "Islam dosnt condone the killing of innocent people" while knowing full well Islam dosnt see non muslims as innocent we all know your tricks now 911 did us all a favour ever one i know is learning your evil religion, i suggest you do the same, then get out of it before we take the koran and swap the names round so koran 8.7 reads to us and i quote "yawah wishes to confirm the truth by these words wipe the muslims out to the last"
hows that sound to you ? hundreds more in there and we havnt even got to the suna to the examples, but i digress rant over please tell me im wrong.

What countries are these? justify your points, nowhere in history have i read such non sense, who wrote these books where do they come from, if this is the case then why are so many Christian countries in cahoots with muslim countries?

Joe you are totally wrong and you justify your comments by interent website how rich is that?

10,000 terrorist attacks you must be joking, how can a website who preaches hate about a faith and link every terrosit attack to Islam. In these terrorist attack is the bombing of mosques included by christian fundementalist and hindu fundementalist.

You make no sense, your ranting leads to one and only conclusion you are an Islamaphobe.

"As you read this, 100 million people are being taught that war on Islam is their religious duty. That you are evil and that God has taught them to destroy you."

THINK YOU WILL FIND THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE

Hi,

Joe Joe Joe!!! Please try to use proper grammar including the use of paragraphs when you write. It is really annoying to have to read through the rant of an ignorant human being in the first place but doubly so when that human being cannot even use his vernacular language properly.
_________________________________


Back to the topic at hand. The Quran is an allegorical book and the verses in it must be understood in the context that they were revealed and respect must also be given to the original language they were revealed in.

These are important points as Quranic Arabic is one of the most sophisticated use of language in the world. This is why when you read the many English translations of the Quran you are not reading the Quran but the author's interpretation of the original Arabic manuscript.

Do a little experiment for me. Go and pick up 2 translations of the Quran in English by different authors and then compare them verse to verse. You will then see the incredibly difficult task that translators have in accurately rendering the Quran into other languages.

In your rant you have taken a verse from Sura 8 of the Quran and taken it out of context either out of ignorance or out of spite and maliciousness. If it is the latter then that is betwen you and God but in my opinion is a really wicked thing to do.

Sufiice it to say, if as you clain Islam is such as wicked faith which teaches Muslims to destroy all non-Muslims on Planet Earth why is it that many persecuted minorities found refuge and prospered in Muslim lands prior to the colonial period.

Just one example for you is the Jews of Europe who were subjected to ethnic cleansing, pogroms and genocide by Christian Europe for 100s of years who fled to Muslim lands and prospered in these lands to this very day.

I could go on a pick apart your argument point by point but I don't think I have to bother.

Take Care

Hi,

I had some time on my hands so I thought that I would address Joe's out of context use of Chapter 8, Verse 60 of the Quran which he related as: "strike fear in the hearts of the unbelievers."

I am refuting his argument because it is unfair for genuine, honest and decent non-Muslims who want to know more about Islam to have to read malicious, divisive comments from Joe and his ilk.

Back to my point about reading the Quran in context and in particular looking at the prevailing conditions when the verses were revealed.

1. Chapter 8 of the Quran is related to warfare and God clearly lays down the rules of engagement that are considered permissible in a war situation. Islam was very young and the Muslims had been commanded by God to patiently endure the persecution at the hands of Polytheist Arabs due to their monotheistic belief in a non-violent, pacisfist manner.

2. Shortly before the verses of this chapter were revealed God had sent revelation commanding Muslims to fight against those who oppressed them, killed them and had taken away their possesions. The Muslims fought their first Battle called Badr, were victorious and so the verses of Chapter 8 were revealed.

3. These verses dealt with prisoners of war, war booty, etc: Effectively 1400 years ago God already laid down the moral and ethical codes that human beings should adhere to during war.

4.What Joe failed to mention is that 4 verses earlier than Verse 60, God puts Verse 60 into the correct context. In Verse 56 we read:

"They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah)."

The Muslims had pursued a policy of signing mutual defence / non-aggression pacts with neighbouring non-Muslim tribes and communities. As the Verse states above these neighbouring groups broke their covenants and tried to destroy Islam through treachery by siding with the Polytheists persecuting the Muslims. This after the fact that they had signed defence pacts with the Muslims.

5. Joe also failed to mention verse 58 which reads:

"If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous."

Again God is reaffirming the context of these verses is to do with those people who break treaties. Please rememeber we went to war against Hitler becuase he broke agreements by invading Poland. Treason is still considered punishable by death in most countries today.

6. Now we get to Verse 60 and can better understand the context of this verse. "Strike fear" into those who broke their treaties with you so that they will think twice before commiting treasonous acts again.

7. However the most important verse Joe left out was verse 61 immeadietly after Verse 60 in which God says:

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."

I am not suprised Joe did not mention Verse 61 because he does not want people to know that God commands Muslims to make peace during wartime with your enemies if the agree to stop aggression and treasonous behaviour against Muslims.
_________________________

For the purpose of succintness I have offered a simple refuatation to agents of hate and bigotry like Joe and his ilk. Muslims and Islam are not a threat to the decent people of the West and the UK. The real threat are people like Joe who cowardly try to incite hatred amongst the peoples of our great country to divert us from the real issues of our day that are reducing the quality of life for our society and children every single day.

Take Care

these countries are malaysia and bangladesh to name but a few..And the taken verses out of context is a lot of more propaganda..Islam strives to be the dominant religion of the earth..How can a practising muslim live in a country surrounded by non believers?? In india another supposed bombing by men who are taken their cue from the koran..I know im an islamophobe but i dont hate islam i fear its spread and influence on the western world?? Isnt that a valid fear..

You really are having a laugh arn't you? Malaysia does have churches, it has temples it has other religious institutions.

As a muslim i have no qualms in living in a country with non-believers becuase my religion says whatever country you live in you should have the right to your religion and respect the county's laws, so i have no problem.

Your point about India is ridiculous because the recent bombing hasn't been investigated and no-one has claimed the bombing, and if it was a muslim org, it wouldn't be on religious grounds it would be about Kashmir which has nothing to do with religion (Have some sense of knwoledge).

and please save us the hassle in pointing out your contradictions.

Hi

For the attention of m.

Unlike Joe I am going to give you the benefit of doubt and sincerely believe that you are as you say concerned about the spread of Islam but do not hate Islam in itself.

You mentioned Bangladesh and Malaysia. You may not know this but Bangladesh is one of the most populous Muslim countries on Earth. Islam came to Bangladesh through traders and not one Muslim soldier ever stepped on Bangladeshi soil.

In fact the most populous Muslim country on Earth is Indonesia and again the Indonesians accepted Islam through learning about it from traders and missionaries. No Muslim army ever stepped on Indonesian soil.

You argue Islam is a threat to the West however I diagree. The only serious ideological threat to the West is the rise of secular humanism and atheism which has sought to remove God from the lives of Western people. It's proponents sucessfully infiltrated the Christian Church and destroyed the Church from within over hundreds of years. It's modern day proponents finding Islam a more difficult nut to crack are trying a more direct and militaristic approach to achieve the same goal.

Let's make something clear. The reason why Islam, Judaism and Christianity are problematic to many political and business leaders in the West is that they forbid interest and place restrictions that prevent the abuse of power if adhered to properly. Our Western society is currently built on interest-based transactions which now means that 100000s of UK homeowners will lose their homes, executives will be getting million pound bonuses, inflation will destroy savings, etc:

The real fight is between religion versus atheism / secular humanism. Please for the sake of our country and our future generations do not get distracted from the real problems of our day before it is too late and we find that we cannot change things for the better.

Take Care

Hi. Carrying on:

m, you asked a question:

"How can a practising Muslim live in a country surrounding by non-Muslims?"

Speaking for myself very well thankyou very much. The earliest Muslims at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) were commanded to seek political asylum in Abysinnia (modern-day Ethiopia) which was ruled by a Christian ruler. They were granted asylum and lived many years in a Christian country without any problems whatsoever.

Religious belief is between the indiviual and God and should never be imposed on anybody. Infact the Quran states:

"There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing." (2:256)

God makes it clear that belief has to be voluntary or it is meaningless and coerced confessions are not worth the paper they are written on.

God also reminds Muhammad (peace be upon him) that he is no more than a Messenger whose function is to deliver the message only. The Quran states:

"But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you)" 16:82.

In fact Goad also instructs Muslims to speak to non-Muslims in a kind manner and not dispute over things that can lead to conflict. This only plays into the hands of Satan (Devil). God says:

"And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith." 17:53-54

As I have said in previous posts the Quran has no fallibilities. If you look at verses in the correct context and the conditiosn in which they were revealed the current confusion will cease to exist.

I fact I am quite sympathetic to m as many Muslims I have met do not have a deep understading of their religion and have no real connection to the Quran. In fact the few who justify extremist acts also take verses from the Quran out of context relying on the ignorance of their fellow Muslims and non-Muslims to commit acts that are impermissible.

However that does not excuse m from distorting and using the acts of these extremists to label the religion as wicked and preaching hate and bigotry. That in my opinion stinks of opportunism and relies upon the current climate of fear and Islamaphobia created by Western media for the reasons I have already stated.

Take Care

FAO TRUTHSEEKER:
Thanks truthseeker for putting me right..I would like to apologise to anyone offended by my comments and thank truthseeker for his respectful response..

Hi, For the attention of m:

No problem mate and my sincere respect to you for your response. If there were more people willing to acknowledge errors of judgement on both sides of this debate we might actually make progress in making this world a better place for all of us.

I love my country (United Kingdom) and am deeply committed to it's survival and prosperity. I can see that you are of the same opinion and sincerely believe that extremism practiced by some misguided Muslims is a threat to our great nation.

I totally agree with you but would make the distinction that the religion of Islam that has been established in this country for over a hundred years is not a threat.

As I said I love my country yet am a believing Muslim. One is a national belief and the other a religious belief and I find no conflict between the two.

To put it simply I wish we were living in a Christian country as this country is supposed to be as Islam shares much of it's traditions including prophets and religious books with the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

However as we all know our country is becoming more secular, capitalistic and atheistic every single day to the detriment of our society's culture, traditions and well-being.

I find it really frustrating that other than m and myself more people on this forum cannot identify the real enemy that threatens our nation.

We need to return our country to a manufacturing-based economy, trade equitably with all other nations and have a foreign policy that promotes our national interests and not the interests of foreign powers who have no real sincerity to us.


Take Care