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| The History of Al Nakba - pt1 |
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| Tuesday, 06 May 2008 | |
While under British rule from 1917 the Zionists were allowed to
immigrate and set up institutions in Palestine that were effectively
elements of a state. The Palestinians were not allowed to run any of
these institutions. In the months prior to the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the
Consultancy, David Ben-Gurion’s cabal of Zionists, collated secret
files on Palestinian villages. These files included their location,
number and names of inhabitants any weaponry they possessed.
The files included aerial photographs. How did get this information? They disguised themselves as Palestinians including the use of clothing, customs and language. These files were to be used later as part of Plan Dalet (Plan D) the secret plan to empty Palestine of as many Palestinians as possible.
At the same time a secret Zionist army (the Hagana) was being assembled. The Hagana used weapons smuggled in to Palestine. The Zionists also trained along side the British troops. British Major General Orde Wingate in particular taught the Hagana how to attack the Palestinian villages. He taught concepts such as collective punishment. Despite being considered a psychopath by some of his own troops, Wingate is revered by the Israeli military even today.
Readers have left 28 comments.
RSD:
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This article is appalling. While there are semblences of a factual thread present, much of the text is profoundly wrong. To describe Orde Wingate as a psychopath on one hand and Amin El Husseini as some kind of Peacenik is absurd and obscene.
Wingate was a devout Christian who annoyed a lot of his colleagues with his piety. El Husseini was a murderer, personal friend of Hitler and war criminal who subsequently lay the foundations for the recent horrors in the Balkans. Husseini did not simply make broadcasts on behalf of the Nazis, he founded the Handjar SS Division which murdered, raped and tortured hundreds of thousands. There are allegations made by Armenian groups that he was involved directly in atrocities against Armenians at the end of WW1. There is documentary evidence readily available showing that Husseini was involved in the Holocaust and supported it. But who gives a damn about a bunch of Jews, Slavs, Armenians or Bosnians who died because of him. More importantly upon his appointment to the post of Mufti of Jerusalem he initiated a campaign of terror against Palestinians who sought cooperation and union with the Zionists with the objective of creating a single state in Palestine for all. No one more than Hajj Amin El Husseini did more to create the circumstances for the Nakhba and then lead his people into disaster. And no one, not even the Zionists, showed less interest in the well being of the ordinary Palestinian!
(1)
2008-05-06 19:25:47
Taz:
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This article is appalling. While there are semblences of a factual thread present, much of the text is profoundly wrong. To describe Orde Wingate as a psychopath on one hand and Amin El Husseini as some kind of Peacenik is absurd and obscene. — RSDWingate was a devout Christian who annoyed a lot of his colleagues with his piety. El Husseini was a murderer, personal friend of Hitler and war criminal who subsequently lay the foundations for the recent horrors in the Balkans. Husseini did not simply make broadcasts on behalf of the Nazis, he founded the Handjar SS Division which murdered, raped and tortured hundreds of thousands. There are allegations made by Armenian groups that he was involved directly in atrocities against Armenians at the end of WW1. There is documentary evidence readily available showing that Husseini was involved in the Holocaust and supported it. But who gives a damn about a bunch of Jews, Slavs, Armenians or Bosnians who died because of him. More importantly upon his appointment to the post of Mufti of Jerusalem he initiated a campaign of terror against Palestinians who sought cooperation and union with the Zionists with the objective of creating a single state in Palestine for all. No one more than Hajj Amin El Husseini did more to create the circumstances for the Nakhba and then lead his people into disaster. And no one, not even the Zionists, showed less interest in the well being of the ordinary Palestinian! Oh what a surprise. A Zionist lying about what happened. As I recall Wingate was indeed considered a psychopath by his own troops. You are also lying about Zionists wanting one state for all. They wanted one state alright and without any Palestinians in it. Plan Dalet was the Zionist plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine of it's rightful inhabitants. People involved in fighting the Nazis commented that the Zionist acts reminded them of WW2 atrocities.
(2)
2008-05-06 21:39:51
The roots of Israeli barbarism:
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RSD, this is for you:
"... Orde Wingate, a senior British army officer and Zionist ... taught them [the Special Night Squads] torture, on-the-spot executions, mass detention without trial [and] black flag operations. All of which was perfectly normal for the British. ... Charles Tegart [of the Calcutta police] ... provided his expert assistance in the formation of Arab Investigation Centres ... where Palestinians would be tortured. ... Thousands of Palestinian men were held in pens after systematic search-and-arrest operations, before being moved to concentrated prison camps. ... Former Irgun, Stern Gang and Haganah troops were employed as camp guards, and they were — despite occasional formal recriminations — allowed to get away with murder ... They [the Palestinians] were forced into ghettos, as in Haifa where the 3-5,000 Palestinians who remained after 70,000 Palestinians were expelled, were driven into tiny living quarters in the city. ... They were also subject to rape. ... In general, the Palestinians were subject to martial law, based on the British Mandate's emergency regulations imposed in 1945, which limited rights of expression, movement, and organisation, a status that ended only formally in 1966. And all the while, the theft of the land continued, as did the expropriation, vandalism and desecration, while the refugees were prevented from returning. That was the Zionist movement and state in its moment of triumph, when the 'threat' of Palestinian self-government had been decisively defeated. They required no Hamas to goad them into it." More detailed information on the Zionist, Brutal, Murderar, Maniac at leninology.blogspot.com
(3)
2008-05-07 01:25:41
Unbiased Kiwi:
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I too, have read that the Nakhba was the fault of the Husseinis, and that he and the Arab Higher Council at that time forced hundreds of thousands of Arab Palestinians to flee Israel. More on this can be read on Commentary Magazine:- 1948. Israel and the Palestinians - the true story. Just Google it!
Also the Husseinis and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, huge Palestinian landowners, underhandedly sold thousand of acres of land to the Jews whilst forbidding other Arabs to do the same on pain of death. Enlightening article.
(4)
2008-05-07 04:42:01
RubiCube:
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Is this joke of an article supposed to be some sort of a serious historical study?
It's filled with plain lies,half truths and the whitwashing of Amin Al Hussaini who personally wished to build a death camp for the Jews in the region. Also whitwashing the Arab Revolt as "peaceful strikes"??? I would suggest to the author of this piece to go and read some real history books as it is clear he really has no clue of what he's talking about.
(5)
2008-05-07 06:29:33
Taz:
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Is this joke of an article supposed to be some sort of a serious historical study? — RubiCubeIt's filled with plain lies,half truths and the whitwashing of Amin Al Hussaini who personally wished to build a death camp for the Jews in the region. Also whitwashing the Arab Revolt as "peaceful strikes"??? I would suggest to the author of this piece to go and read some real history books as it is clear he really has no clue of what he's talking about. Why do Zionists feel the need to lie about their crimes I wonder? Spare me your revisionist historian clap trap. This article is accurate.
(6)
2008-05-07 10:19:18
Rob:
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It seems zionists and their supporters have to keep going back 60 or 70 years to try to make a point.
AL-nakba is here and now in front of us, millions of palestinians refugees or under occupation,daily humiliation and oppression. Yet zionists try to create a fact out of fiction,alhusseini was neither involved in the holocaust or supported the holocaUst,what he wanted was help against the occupiers at the time and their surrogates arriving everyday. Israel is a state built by terrorism and is maintained by terrorism. To gain freedom and liberty is the right of the palestinian people,if the occupiers listen to reason then all is good,if not then the palestinians will have to use the means available to get freedom and liberty. Just as we value freedom in britain, so we should help the palestinians be free as well.
(7)
2008-05-07 14:43:51
RSD:
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This debate illustrates one of the major problems for the Palestinian people. So long as they and their supporters continue to rely upon myths instead of factual history they can never hope to progress towards a resolution which will meet their needs.
A simple test of the El Husseini issue is this. If Amin El Husseini was not a wanted war criminal why then did he not attend the UN debates about the whole Palestine issue in the run up to 1947? The fact is that two arrest warrants were issued for his involvement in crimes in Bosnia and in connection with the Handjar SS Division. Although he was captured in Germany in 1945, he escaped to Egypt and never emerged from safe Middle Eastern states. To fully understand the duplicity of El Husseini simply read the verbatim accounts in the Peel Commissions' Report
(8)
2008-05-07 16:40:45
Taz:
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RSD you are a forked tongued liar. The Palestinians boycotted the UN because the UN was biased against them and had no right to partition Palestine.
You Zionist want to spread your lies by quoting your pathetic websites run by...Zionists! Please stop lying and stop blaming the Palestinians for Zionist terror.
(9)
2008-05-07 22:36:42
Unbiased Kiwi:
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When Israel declared her independance in 1948, why didn't the Palestinians do the same? They have had many chances - who stopped them? The Israelis? Western democracies? Or was it their own fellow Arab states?
Sixty years on, the Arabs have revised the true history of the Nakbah to cover their shame for losing a war instigated by seven Arab countries against a little Jewish country and to ever make peace would hurt their pride. This is why Palestinians still suffer - not because of the Jews but because their lives have been controlled by regressive oppressive mindsets that use them as a festering sore to make beat the West with. With the millions of aid sent to Palestine, why do we see a country with a sewage problem, no port, no industry except for the building of rockets but with a new 100,000 sterling new media building to promote their propoganda? Did all that aid go the pockets of their leaders? Or did all their leaders and wealthy educated landowners flee before the Nakbah and leave all their poor tenants behind? Could there be some jealousy in the fact that Israel is a vibrant wealthy innovative democracy where scienists, engineers and mobile phone inventors live and who have the ability and finance to send large medical teams abroad when catastropes occur abroad?
(10)
2008-05-08 04:47:49
RSD:
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Taz
Are you actually denying that there were two international warrants issued in 1945 for the arrest of Amin El Husseini for War Crimes? To deny the Hebron & Jerusalem massacres prior to WW2, or the Beisan massacres of the Mustarib Jews in the first half of the 19th C or the expulsion of the Ashkenazi Jews in the 18th C together with the theft and destruction of their property can only lead to a permanently polarised position in which the descendants of these people can legitimately ignore Palestinian rights.
(11)
2008-05-08 07:44:36
RubiCube:
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Why do Zionists feel the need to lie about their crimes I wonder? Spare me your revisionist historian clap trap. This article is accurate. This article is in no way accurate if only for the reason that it's written amateurishly and with thinly disguised hate. There's no denying that the Mufti was a Nazi since it's well documented in history. There's no denying that the Arab revolt was anything but peaceful and Jewish families were slaughtered and synagogues burned. You sound like a mindless robot who is stuck in his own two sentence world,zionists this zionists that,yada yada.. You can call people here whatever you want it's not going to change recent well documented history. The Palestinians(not to mention they didn't call themselves that back then) brought their "Nakba" entirely upon themselves by unwisely putting their trust in the Nazi mufti and his creation The Arab League. Owning no more than 6% of Palestine through legitimate land sales, the Consultancy whilst dreaming of Eretz Israel (Greater Israel) wanted to take nearly 80% of Palestine to establish a Jewish state and drive out the inhabitants. The harassment of the Palestinians accelerated leading to violence that continues today. This quote for example is a blatant lie since Jews owned much more territory through legitimate purchace and most importantly because the Jews have agreed to the 1947 partition plan while the Arabs have not. The Palestinians were not allowed to run any of these institutions. This quote is another lie since the British have made no favors to either side as shown by the fact that Hussaini convinced the British to outlaw Jewish immigration effectively sending several ships back to Nazi Europe to die. The only reason the Arabs didn't have as better organized institutions is because they didn't know how to properly organize them. Oh and Plan Dalet is open for all to see and read and mentions no such things as are written in this article. Basically this article follows the familiar path of blaming everybody else(Britain,Jews etc) for your own mistakes,nobody's perfect and the Palestinian Arabs are not perfect either.
(12)
2008-05-08 08:36:38
whypatcondellisntfunny:
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I'm still learning about Israel. I've been too ignorant of it all my life, so I have not the slightest idea about the accuracy of this article.
This is the web. I would suggest that MPAC ensure that future articles reference reliable historical sources so that readers may visit them and make up their own mind as to whom to believe in this debate.
(13)
2008-05-08 10:37:07
Rob:
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The british have made no favours to either side, i have heard of lies but this one takes the biscuit.
I suppose you never heard of the balfour declaration, i suppose the british occupation of palestine never had anything to do with hundreds of thousands fo illegal immigrants entering palestine. It seems zionists and their supporters suffer from the chosen ones syndrome,instead of dealing with the crimes of zionists here and now, they like to tell stories about 60 years ago. If the label nazi can be used to describe anyone aptly then it is zionists,who have been using nazi tactics against the civillians of palestine.
(14)
2008-05-08 11:16:45
I Sidat:
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Fact: Israel wants to ethnically cleanse 'Israel'.
Fact: More Palestinians have died than Israelis Fact: Western countries like America ignore the plight of Palestine Fact: The media especially in America play an integral part in deceiving the Public (see O'reilly and Michelle Malkin) Fact: The general public are blind sighted in realising the truth Fact: Key academics and renowned freedom fighters call the situation in Palestine as apartheid Fact: Human Rights watch has condemned and actively called on the UN to condemn illegal Israeli action Fact: The UN is controlled by US bureaucrats Need i say more to prove my point?
(15)
2008-05-08 11:31:23
Lord Balfour's Butler:
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Al Husseini formed the Bosnian SS Division called Handzar to take part in Hitler's Holocaust. He was a wanted Nazi War Criminal who fled to Egypt. He was a Nazi by any definition you choose.
The Balfour Declaration is NOT a legal document. The only legality pertaining to Palestine is the original Mandate For Palestine (starting with the San Remo conference in 1920 and concluded in the Mandate in 1922). The Mandate maps show that Gaza and The West Bank belong to The Jewish State. The Mandate also states that Jews have complete political control over Palestine whilst non-Jews have civil and religious freedom. The reason for thi is because when the Mandate also created Jordan, Syria and The Lebanon it was specified that Jews had no rights in these countries and so were given exclusive political rights over Palestine. Res 181 by the British in 1947 attempted to further partition Palestine into an Arab State and Jewish State. The Arabs rejected it and instead chose to attack the Jewish State with the objective of taking it all. They failed (as they failed so many times since) and as victor Israel declared Independence. They controlled more than they had before the Arabs attacked but less than they were allocated under the original Mandate. The declaration of Independence fully negates Res 181 since Israel's boundaries are vastly different and the Arabs had rejected it anyway. Any attempt to revise what I've written are just lies. Go and Google "Myths and Fact" and "Mandate for Palestine" you will see I am 100% correct and you will also see the original San Remo map and the final map of 1922.
(16)
2008-05-08 15:52:23
RSD:
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Rob,
If the British should be accused of anything it is inconsistency and incoherence. The Balfour Declaration is a statement of desire rather than a policy statement. It states British support for the notion of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, but not the creation of a nation state. The Sykes-Picot Agreement makes similar statements on behalf of the Arabs. The problem being that the British implied a promises that were effectively mutually exclusive. The League of Nations awarded to Britain the mandate over Palestine, as it also awarded mandates to France, following the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. The British almost immediately breached the terms of the mandate by awarding almost 3/4's of Palestine to the Hashemite monarchy to create Transjordan as a national state. The British subsequently ruled the Palestine west of the Jordan river with capricious inconsistency much to the dismay of the military that had to attempt to enforce security. The British attempts to placate anti-British factions, headed by Aimin El Husseini, led to the destruction of a consensual and free development of a Palestinian political body, and thus reduced it to little more than clan based activity. The struggle to create a coherent Palestinian leadership devoid of clan based factionalism remains. At times the British favoured the Zionists and at other times they did not. There is plenty of evidence to show that the colonial administrators found the Zionist apparatchiks difficult to deal with and much prefered the Muslim & Christian Palestinians. Given the evidence surrounding the 1929 Hebron massacre and subsequent British action it is hard to understand British policy at all, and suggests strongly that the colonial administrators were determined to end Zionist immigration and actively favoured the most extreme Palestinian position. What is certain is that the British limited and then terminated Jewish immigration in the late '30's. Many Jews who sought escape to Palestine during WW2 ended up dying in the camps. After the war Jews attempting enter Palestine were often intercepted and interned in camps across Europe, including former concentration camps. Images of British troops beating Jewish refugees did much to shift international opinion in favour of the Zionists. In conclusion I think the British did neither side any favours. If the Zionists proved to be the beneficiaries it was because they were forced to become totally self-reliant. The Palestinians still live with the consequences of British appeasement of extremists and this inheritance can be seen in the way the various parts of Palestinian government conducts itself - chaotically at best.
(17)
2008-05-08 19:05:33
RubiCube:
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I suppose you never heard of the balfour declaration, i suppose the british occupation of palestine never had anything to do with hundreds of thousands fo illegal immigrants entering palestine. Yes,I have heard of the Balfour declaration,if you read its text with an open mind you will find it deliberatly ambiguous. Also the British created a country named Jordan out of thin air in the 1920's as a favor to the Arabs for helping in WW1. A lot of Jordan's territory was in fact land of the ancient kingdom of Israel. I don't see you having any problems with that. So yes the British made no special favors to anyone. Also you keep going on about "british occupation of Palestine" while in fact Britain and France controlled the entire ME. It seems zionists and their supporters suffer from the chosen ones syndrome,instead of dealing with the crimes of zionists here and now, they like to tell stories about 60 years ago. This article presents itself as a study of history of that period,I am replying to its topic. If the label nazi can be used to describe anyone aptly then it is zionists,who have been using nazi tactics against the civillians of palestine. That's a ridiculous statement driven by emotion without any factual basis. If you had any history knowledge you would hang your head in shame but since you have zero,I suppose it can be overlooked. Fact: Israel wants to ethnically cleanse 'Israel'. — I SidatThat's a lie,not a fact. [quote=I Sidat] Fact: More Palestinians have died than Israelis So does this make you a happy boy to compare deaths? More Palestinian terrorists have died than Israeli children in pizzerias and busses,yeah. Fact: Western countries like America ignore the plight of Palestine That's ridiculous,the US pumps billions of dollars into the Palestinians pockets while the supposed Ummah gives almost nothing. And these billions of dollars go into one thing only. Fact: The media especially in America play an integral part in deceiving the Public (see O'reilly and Michelle Malkin) oh man,that's standup material. Fact: The general public are blind sighted in realising the truth I agree. Fact: Key academics and renowned freedom fighters call the situation in Palestine as apartheid Like who,Finkelstein?Don't make me laugh. Fact: Human Rights watch has condemned and actively called on the UN to condemn illegal Israeli action Same for the Palestinians,did it matter to them?No Fact: The UN is controlled by US bureaucrats More likely it's controlled by the dozens of Islamic countries which are in it. Need i say more to prove my point? Besides proving nothing,I suppose not.
(18)
2008-05-08 19:08:15
Taz:
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Al Husseini formed the Bosnian SS Division called Handzar to take part in Hitler's Holocaust. He was a wanted Nazi War Criminal who fled to Egypt. He was a Nazi by any definition you choose. — Lord Balfour's ButlerYeah right. Go Google a Zionist run website to discover new and wonderful "facts" about Al Nakba that shows the Zionists in a good light. Don't you know the Palestinians "wanted" to leave and teh ethnic cleansing was all their fault? You lying moron. The Balfour Declaration is NOT a legal document. The only legality pertaining to Palestine is the original Mandate For Palestine (starting with the San Remo conference in 1920 and concluded in the Mandate in 1922). The Mandate maps show that Gaza and The West Bank belong to The Jewish State. The Mandate also states that Jews have complete political control over Palestine whilst non-Jews have civil and religious freedom. The reason for thi is because when the Mandate also created Jordan, Syria and The Lebanon it was specified that Jews had no rights in these countries and so were given exclusive political rights over Palestine. Res 181 by the British in 1947 attempted to further partition Palestine into an Arab State and Jewish State. The Arabs rejected it and instead chose to attack the Jewish State with the objective of taking it all. They failed (as they failed so many times since) and as victor Israel declared Independence. They controlled more than they had before the Arabs attacked but less than they were allocated under the original Mandate. The declaration of Independence fully negates Res 181 since Israel's boundaries are vastly different and the Arabs had rejected it anyway. Any attempt to revise what I've written are just lies. Go and Google "Myths and Fact" and "Mandate for Palestine" you will see I am 100% correct and you will also see the original San Remo map and the final map of 1922.
(19)
2008-05-08 21:26:43
Truth Seeker:
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Hi.
I do not think anyone is actually debating on this thread as both sides have firmly entrenched views based upon their own personal bias. Here are my points in regards to Palestine: 1. None of the "historical events" described including the Nakba would ever have occured if Israel was created in a just manner. The illegal, immoral and unethical cleansing of Palestinians from their homeland was in itself unecessary. If Israel was created due to the appaling suffering of Jews during WW2 then surely they should have been given a part of Germany in the war reparations demanded of Germany. Why punish the Palestinians who played no part in the Holocaust whatsoever? The fact is that the confiscation of Palestinan land did not occur in 1948 but with the creation of political Zionism and the Balfour Declaration decades earlier. ____________________________________ 2. Some Zionists claim that Israel is their land due to their supposed link to the Israelites who God supposedly gave the land to for eternity in a book (The Bible) written by Israelites themsleves. Sorry for stating the obvious but their is a conflict of interest here whereby the writers of the Bible write that their God gave their people the land. In the same context I could author a book claiming that God gave my people Iceland and then when I am in an influential position take Iceland from the native population. Does any sane person really believe that God is an estate agent who auctions of the Earth to his "special" people. The God I believe in treats all human beings equal regardless of race, gender or ethnicity and any ideology (Zionism) that states otherwise is inherently racist and destructive. ___________________________________ 3. Even if the Holocaust did not happen the Zionists would still have pursued their agenda of taking Palestine. In fact this was their stated goal well before WW2 or even WW1 either. ______________________________ 4. The idea of creating a state for a favoured people based on religious prophecy is absurd in the modern, enlightenment period we enjoy and live in. Even if we disagree on any other point we must all agree that interpreting prophecies is abtract by it's very nature. If everyone who had a religious prophecy they wanted to fulfil was allowed to do so we would have an even more messed up world than we have already. ________________ I do not want to offend anyone but for me this argument should be seen without bias and logic should be applied. Bye P.S. I am glad the Zionists don't believe their promised land was in the UK or all of us would have to put up with the maltreatment the Palestinians receive by Zionists.
(20)
2008-05-08 21:48:23
I Sidat:
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That's ridiculous,the US pumps billions of dollars into the Palestinians pockets while the supposed Ummah gives almost nothing. — RubiCubeAnd these billions of dollars go into one thing only. Everything you have stated has no validity at all. I am educated better than you, one of the reasons why am studying middle east at university level. everything i stated points towards people like you who have no logical basis on which to debate.
(21)
2008-05-09 05:01:21
Yitzchak Goodman:
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In the same context I could author a book claiming that God gave my people Iceland and then when I am in an influential position take Iceland from the native population . . . — Truth SeekerP.S. I am glad the Zionists don't believe their promised land was in the UK or all of us would have to put up with the maltreatment the Palestinians receive by Zionists. You may not believe in religion, but if you intend to have any sympathy for large numbers of your fellow beings, you can't just dismiss some of the fundamental ideas of Western (and Muslim for that matter) civilization as merely the same thing as some made-up book about Iceland. Speaking of promised lands in the UK, one of the most beloved poets of the British people talks about building "Jerusalem/In England's green and pleasant land." See there--Zionists are not only hiding behind every tree, but they infiltrated classic literature years ago.
(22)
2008-05-09 07:07:31
Rob:
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RSD you can twist and turn as many words and statements and give opinions.
The reality is that after the occupation of palestine by britain the population of jews arose from around 8 per cent to around 30 per cent if not more. The numbers speak for themselves,no amount of wriggling with words will change that.
(23)
2008-05-09 10:52:36
Lord Balfour's Butler:
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Quote: "Some Zionists claim that Israel is their land due to their supposed link to the Israelites who God supposedly gave the land to for eternity in a book (The Bible) written by Israelites themsleves"
Well its in the Koran too. So, should we suggest that the Koran is equally non-authoritative as it was written by Arabs? Palestinian claims to Israel are ALSO religious because they claim that Israel is Islamic lands. SO, you can either choose to insert religious arguments into this or take them both away. Quote: "If Israel was created due to the appaling suffering of Jews during WW2 then surely they should have been given a part of Germany in the war reparations demanded of Germany. Why punish the Palestinians who played no part in the Holocaust whatsoever.." Why do people get this SO wrong! The Mandate for Palestine was created in 1922 (started 1920). This OBVIOUSLY had nothing to do with The Holocaust. 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries. This OBVIOUSLY had nothing to do with The Holocaust. Palestinand DID have a link to The Holocaust by the actions of Al Husseini as already described. Quote:"The idea of creating a state for a favoured people based on religious prophecy is absurd in the modern, enlightenment period we enjoy and live in" But its NOT based on a religious prophecy. Its based on the unbroken residency of Jews in that area since the time of Moses. You cannot discount the historical/religious ties to the region without compromising what it says in The Koran. Jews are a race and Palestine/Israel is their national home. Its NOT a religious-based claim exclusively. Its ethnic and racial. Quote: "P.S. I am glad the Zionists don't believe their promised land was in the UK or all of us would have to put up with the maltreatment the Palestinians receive by Zionists." Yup, and we are pleased that the UK is away from the Middle East and so in no danger of suicide bombers for Islamic causes.
(24)
2008-05-09 10:58:15
shan:
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Lord balfours butler did it, it was him who fed lord balfour opium so that balfour could give what did not belong to him.
the land of palestine was given to bani israel and not ashkenazi khazar jews,ashkenazi khazar jews have no rights to palestine as such. as bani israels offspring are jews-christians and muslims,the ethnic and racial angle does not work either. since palestine was not populated by jews without interruption as they were expelled on various oocasions,the butler needs to spruce up his knowledge a bit. if anyone it is palestinians who have a unbroken claim to residency going back thousands of years. No matter whatever excuses are used a theif is a theif.
(25)
2008-05-09 13:07:35
Truth Seeker:
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Hi To Lord Balfour's Butler / Yitzchak
___________________________________ "Well it's in the Koran too". There is no verse of the Quran that promises Jews Palestine for all of eternity. I keep telling you God is not an estate agent and does not have a "chosen people" who are favoured above everyone else. That is racism pure and simple! In fact the Quran like the Bible (Torah) states that God sent Moses to rescue the Israelites from Egypt and took them to safety. However there is no Quranic verse that talks about everlasting possesion. In fact God condemns the Israelites in the Quran and in the Torah for disobeying his covenant time and time again. In fact many Jews believe according to the Torah God exiled them from the Holy Land and would not lift his exile until the return of the Jewish Messiah and that any premature man-made attempt to do so would lead to death and destruction. _______________________________________ "You may not believe in religion, but if you intend to have any sympathy for large numbers of your fellow beings, you can't just dismiss some of the fundamental ideas of Western (and Muslim for that matter) civilization as merely the same thing as some made-up book about Iceland." In no way can you say that the Jewish community worldwide constitute "large numbers". Jews make a small percentage of the population of the world and to take someone's homeland and give it to one of the smallest populations in the world is grossly unfair. Forget the fact that some of the most religious Jews do not even believe in the state of Israel and call for it's peaceful dismantlement. The fact is that the only reason Israel was created and Zionism took a foothold amongst the Jewish diaspora was becuase of the loss of so many God-fearing rabbis leading up to and during the Holocaust. A theological void was created where Zionists (many of whom were atheists) were able to exploit the Holocaust and use it to create a political state. What they did was hijack Judaism and take the spiritual message out of the faith and make the argument one of nationalism. _________________________________ "Palestinian claims to Israel are ALSO religious because they claim that Israel is Islamic lands. SO, you can either choose to insert religious arguments into this or take them both away." Why do you keep bringing religion into this argument. I am talking about justice and am approaching the problem using logic. By the way Muslims ruled Palestine for at least 800 years. Why is it that since the destruction of the second temple in 70AD to the 19th Century most Jews in Palestine and in the diaspora were quite content where they were. Looking at the historical record I find no significant Jewish rebellions or civil disobedience against their Muslim rulers. If creating Israel was so important why was there no strong Zionist movement throughout Jewish history from 70AD to modern times. _____________________________________- "Palestinand DID have a link to The Holocaust by the actions of Al Husseini as already described." To describe the actions of one man and collectively punish all Palestinians seems a bit unfair, don't you think. He never had popular support as if he did there would have been no Jews left in Palestine considering the significant advantage the Palestinians had in terms of population over the Jews in the 1920s. In the same analogy we can say the UK had a link to the Holocaust as we know a few Brits went and fought for the Germans during WW2 as Fascist sympathisers. _________________________________________- Take Care
(26)
2008-05-09 19:55:52
Truth Seeker:
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Hi. Carrying on:
"But its NOT based on a religious prophecy. Its based on the unbroken residency of Jews in that area since the time of Moses." Thanks for proving my previous point. The fact that there is unbroken residency of Jews since the time of Moses is something we agree on. The fact that the Jews in Palesttine were quite content living in Palestine under the rule of non-Jews from 70 AD proves that Israel's creation has no solid foundations. If it is a case as you say of ethnic and racial links then why could Jews not go back and live in Palestine. They did not have to create an independent state for Jews but could have assimilated into Palestine. Many Americans have ethnic and racial links to the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. By your analogy millions of Americans should be allowed to cross the Atlantic and set up their own state by carving out a piece of the United Kingdom. Your point is proposterous as the human story is one of constant migration and intermixing, etc: If we all studied our genetic histories we will probably find we are linked to many geographical places. I may be able to find someone with whom I have common ancestry and use that to go and colonise their land. ________________________________________ I also agree with you that Israel's foundation was not only about religion. My evidence for this is for all to see. Israel has many thriving industries. It has a healthy weapons industry which sells weapons of destruction to the highest bidder. It also known for human sex trafficking and is home to some of the biggest fraudsters in the world who have come from Britain and America after ripping off UK/US taxpayers and fleeing to Israel. Israel will not extradite as it allows any Jew to have nationality meaning that these criminals are totally protected from justice. Did I forget to mention that Israeli Tourism literature promotes Israel as great place for hedonism, sexual vice and perversion and that they have street festivals to celebrate this. By the way I don't care what people get upto in their private lives but for a country that claims it is a Jewish state to openly allow things that are considered immoral and unlawful in it's own religion proves that Israel has nothing to do with true Judaism. ________________________________________ "Yup, and we are pleased that the UK is away from the Middle East and so in no danger of suicide bombers for Islamic causes." Maybe if we stopped fighting wars for Israel's national interests and did what was best for our country we might not have so many suicide bombers wnating to blow us up. We should make peace wit every country that is not a threat to us, trade equitably with them and leave Israel to fend for herself. We keep getting told how Israel has the 4th most powerful army so why doesn't Isreal prove it. That way we can stop bankrupting our country fighting her dirty wars for her. 1 million dead Iraqis all of whom have family. No matter what your religion is you want to get even with those who you believe have caused those deaths if the dead are your own flesh and blood. That's human nature and not only attributable to Islamic causes alone. Take Care
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2008-05-09 20:16:58
RubiCube:
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I am educated better than you, one of the reasons why am studying middle east at university level. I doubt you could be better educated than someone with a computer science degree,that's not the point though. There's no need to look far,every year UNRWA publishes a report of donations by countries where the US always comes on top while the Arab countries always come at the bottom. You just wrote a bunch of sentences with no factual basis,most of it sounds like what you can find at rense.com . I guess they don't teach you ME well at university over there.
(28)
2008-05-10 06:11:39
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