An Sharia and Muslims in the UK and around the world must learn to live with Biblical Christianity as reality, wether you like it or not.

Salam, Hizb ut Tahrir have actually issued several leaflets and writings on their website plus they are doing two talks on the sharia, one on today at Ponlar st. in cannon st at 8pm and the other on thursday at tonybee hall in aldgate at 8pm.

Err hello, its the Hizb that got us into this trouble! With their stupid 'dont get involved in British politics' maniac approach!

If you have already forgotten it was actually the Arch-Bishop who started the row about Sharia in this country.

Hizb ut Tahrir issued some leaflets and are doing talks as I said earlier to clarify the issue of sharia, so am not quite sure what your trying to say.

Yes, Hizb ut Tahrir has consistently and effectively been articulating , intellectually, the arguments regarding Shariah (especially with regards to its proper application in the Muslim world) for a while now, and its recent response on clarifying the different aspects of Shariah, after the recent row over the Archbishops commnents, is proof of this.
I think we as Muslims in this country should not feel apologetic or defensive about this.
Its not simply a question of making the host community 'feel comfortable' with Shariah by diluting or covering aspects they do not understand or like, rather we need to clearly demonstrate, through constructive debate,why Shariah provides a model for Muslims to resolve issues based on core concepts derived from their belief, which cannot simply be 'wished' away.

Furthermore the point that the Hizb does not participate in parlimentary politics is totally irrelevant here, since many Muslim MP's who currently sit in parliament, have either no clue as to what the Shariah is, or have simply toed their respective parties lines in condemning the Archbishops thoughtful call for a debate and greater understanding on what is a sensitive issue.

How about the jews who have the Beth Din Courts? Also this is a secular country and not a achristian one, get that straight.

The Sharia, or at least that part of it which comes from Quran and authentic Hadith, is perfect and fully compatible with the nature of the Human race. It has been around for some 1500 years and adhereance to it has been the bedrock for many sucessful societies in the Muslim world.

The problem with any discussion on whether sharia is 'in sync with modern day standards' is that so called 'modern day' standards are constantly changing. For example, a few hundred years ago the status of women was defined in the Sharia; the same as today. However Modern day standards in Europe at the time regarded Women as marginally better then animals. Likewise, about 50 years ago most people in Europe regarded homosexuality as an abomination, wheras the Sharia position was the same as it is today. In the very near future you will probably see European people condone paedophilia, and then accuse opponents of such behaviour as backward people who fail to follow their 'modern standards'. Many Muslim groups are supporters of sharia, but are obviously hesitant to speak to the British mainstream media, who cannot show any objectivity when it comes to Islam / Muslims.

Today the deen of Allah is being villified and the Sharia is deemed to be backwards, but as a famous Persian couplet says "soon the dustclouds will clear, and it will be seen who is riding the horse and who is riding the ass."

No need at all for Sharia in the UK.
You want to live by that law then go and live in a Muslim country where you have no choice but to live by that law.
It's not welcome in the West.
We go forwards not backwards.
Aren't you embarrassed about using sharia courts in cafes?

I know this is not a discussion forum, but I agree wholeheartedly with Abu Haadiya's comment.
Indeed we need to understand that secular, post - Enlightenment western values have developed in a completely different way to Islam.The initiator for these changes was the clash between the Church and State, that led to the development of secularism and values devoid of a fixed point of reference, hence the continuos change in western society's perception of what is right and wrong, acceptable/not acceptable etc.
In Islam we have and always will have this fixed reference point , i.e. the Quran and Sunnah, which is the basis for Shariah law.

Part 1:

This whole episode which started from the speech by the Archbishop of Canterbury has now lead to this – a “debate” on the Shariah itself and mainly on its Hudud aspects (Prescribed Punishments) to the gleeful smirks of neo-cons, Zionists, Islamophobes, secularists, Hadith rejecting apostates, other apostates and every other hostile anti-Islamic element you can think of.

I think MPACUK should take a step back and just listen to your-selves – “How can rules that seem totally out of sync with any modern day standard be defended by Muslims?” & “Does Shariah need to modernise to fit a new world, can it be logically argued for to a non Muslim audience”, - this is the fruit of excessive “British” flag waving (even more that what my non-Muslim neighbor would do) taking the “inclination approach” – which consequently places you in a defeatist stance were you are forced to look at yourselves as Muslims as if there is something wrong with you & expected to somehow exert effort to “rectify” with the sole objective of making yourselves look “acceptable”, “unobjectionable”, and “satisfactory” to the kuffar.

Apologists - “are authors, writers, editors of scientific logs or academic journals, and leaders known for taking on the points in arguments, conflicts or positions that are either placed under popular scrutinies or viewed under persecutory examinations.!

Defeatist – “a person who surrenders easily or is subject to defeatism”

Hostile elements are exactly pursuing this agenda to spark some sort of “debate” within the Muslim community about the perceived “problems” of the Shariah a notion peddled by secularist apostates wearing the gown of “moderate Islam” with the desired objective to make out Muslims who believe in the Shariah including the Hudud punishments as apart of Islam - as the extremists, fundamentalists and crackpots. And those Muslims who for some reason feel shy about this issue and took the duck and dive approach in dealing with this did no favors as well to the Muslim community freeing themselves by labeling these Shariah laws as only the “strictest interpretations”.

Know compromising only leads to further compromising until you are left with no faith at all Allah (swt) Informs us in the Qu’ran:

“Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him) till you follow their religion.” (Al-Baqarah 2:120)

“They wish that you should compromise (in religion out of courtesy) with them, so they (too) would compromise with you.” (Al-Qalam 68:9)

“And incline not toward those who do wrong, lest the Fire should touch you, and you have no protectors other than Allâh, nor you would then be helped.” (Hud 11:113)

What must be stressed is no-one is calling for Shariah in terms of Hudud punishments etc in Britain – which some have tried to make out – this is absurd. Britain is a non-Muslim country with a non-Muslim authority – the only places were Muslims will be calling for the full implementation of the Shariah laws are in Muslim countries. Period

Part 2:

But as for believing in all aspect of the Shariah – then absolutely and Muslims should not be apologetic about it at all – take for instance these Hudud (Prescribed Punishments):

Stoning the Adulterer:

After he/she either confesses to the crime or 4 witnesses are produced with strict conditions in verifying the validity of their testimonies.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas - 'Umar said - "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam (stoning), and so did we after him."
(Bukhari, Book 8, Volume 82, Hadith 816)


Killing the Sodomite:

The Prophet (saw) said – “If you find anyone committing the deed of Lut (i.e Sodomy), kill the one who does it, and the one who did it”(Abu Dawood (4462)[4/393], At Tirmidhi {1460)[4/57], and Ibn Majah (2561)[3/229])

Ibn Taymiah said – “The most valid opinion maintained by the Prophets Companions is that both who practise sodomy are to be killed, whether they are muhsans or not. He added “The Companions of the Prophet (saw) have not differed on killing sodomites, and some of them are of the opinion that a sodomite is to be raised to the top of the highest building in town and thrown from here, followed by stones thrown at them” (Majmu al Fatawa (28/361))


Punishment for stealing:

“Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allâh. And Allâh is All¬Powerful, All¬Wise.” (Al-Ma'idah 5:38)

The Prophet (saw) said: “The hand should be cut off for stealing something that is worth a quarter of a dinar or more” (Bukhari (6789) [12/117] and Muslim (4374) [6/181]


Punishment for the Highway Robber:

“The recompense of those who wage war against Allâh and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.” (Al-Ma'idah 5:33)

Ibn Taymiah said –“Muslim scholars have unanimously agrees that if a highwayman, a thief and their like are brought to justice before the ruler or judge and they repent afterwards, the prescribed penalty imposed on them is not annulled, but it must be executed even if the repent sincerely” (Majmu al Fatawa (28/376)


Punishment for Apostasy:

The Prophet (saw) said –“If anyone (Muslim) changes his religion (i.e. apostatizes), kill him”
(Bukhari (3017)[6/180], Abu Dawood (4351)[4/339], At Tirmidhi (1462)[4/59], An-Nisa’I (4070)[4/130] and Ibn Majah (2535)[3/214]

Part 3:

To believe in the Shariah (all of it) and its supremacy is from our belief in Islamic monotheism - in Islam - monotheism is not limited in just believing that Allah is the Creator of everything - but also to direct all forms worship to Allah alone, to Single Him out in His names and Attributes and apart of directing all forms of worship to Allah alone - is also to believe that Allah Alone is the Legislator - thus those who rule by other than What Allah Has Revealed take themselves as rivals and partners with Allah in legislations - hence the nature of man made laws which consequently compete with the Divinely legislated Shariah - is polytheism:

“……………The command (or the judgement) is for none but Allâh. He has commanded that you worship none but Him (i.e. His Monotheism), that is the (true) straight religion, but most men know not”. (Yusuf 12:40)

“…………and He makes none to share in His Decision and His Rule." (Al-Kahf 18:26)

“Have you seen those (hyprocrites) who claim that they believe in that which has been sent down to you, and that which was sent down before you, and they wish to go for judgement (in their disputes) to the Tâghût (false judges, etc.) while they have been ordered to reject them. But Shaitân (Satan) wishes to lead them far astray. And when it is said to them: "Come to what Allâh has sent down and to the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)," you (Muhammad SAW) see the hypocrites turn away from you (Muhammad SAW) with aversion. How then, when a catastrophe befalls them because of what their hands have sent forth, they come to you swearing by Allâh, "We meant no more than goodwill and conciliation!" (An-Nisa 4:60-62)

“And verily, We have sent among every Ummah(community, nation) a Messenger proclaiming): "Worship Allâh (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Tâghût” (An-Nahl 16:36)

“Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.” (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

This is why a secularist can never be Muslim - and those who disbelieve in the Shariah or see it as barbaric, backward, or laws that don’t need to be implemented in the 21st centaury - commit the crime of kufr.

We need to realize there are certain elements of our faith that kaafirs will never understand until they have monotheism instilled within their chests and become Believers - it is as simple as that - So from the Muslim perspective - what’s really the "big issue" - frankly there is none- we only fuel the fire when we pursue to make the kuffar "understand" or "accept" parts of our faith that they never would!

Simply take the "so what" approach while stressing that this is not called for in the UK- yes in an Islamic state which is governed by Islamic laws – Divine laws that we believe are just – from which that stipulate convicted sodomites to be killed and according to some jurists - thrown from high buildings and then stones thrown at them – so what?

B-I-G D-E-A-L

If the kuffar don’t like it - tough - just tell them not to live in an Islamic state especially if they are sodomites - case solved.

We as Believers should always remember - what is considered “just” and “acceptable” is what Allah and His Messenger have decreed. Period

Part 4:

And we will always have differences between our values, perceptions and beliefs with the kuffar - likewise amongst the kuffar they also have differences in values, beliefs and perceptions of affairs -but always do remember folks especially MPACUK who seem to be trying so hard to '"fit in" and incline towards the kuffar by their defeatist approach of compromising:

Islam is superior to all other paths, religions, theologies, ideologies, creeds and methodologies.

“He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh and in His Messenger Muhammed SAW) hate (it).”
(As-Saff 61:9)

"They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allâh's light (with which Muhammad SAW has been sent - Islâmic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allâh will not allow except that His light should be perfected even though the Kâfirûn (disbelievers) hate (it)."
(At-Tawbah 9:32)

So don’t fear what the kuffar will say rather we should fear Allah - if we start disowning aspects of Islam and start going down the road of criticizing them:

“It is only Shaitân (Satan) that suggests to you the fear of his Auliyâ' [supporters and friends (polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh and in His Messenger, Muhammad SAW)], so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers.” (Aali Imran 3:175)

Come on MPAC dudes, lets do something practical, get this up on your front-page...

British Muslims Stand up to be Counted as Equal Citizens

Vigil outside 10 Downing Street
Saturday 16 February, 2-4pm

We, the British Muslim community, are a rich mosaic bound by the universality of our faith. We have diverse origins, cultures and schools of thought which all strengthen our communities.

We are united in the belief that our faith, along with other faiths, can be a force for good for Britain. As British Muslims we reaffirm our conviction in the British values of fair play and the rule of law and we see no incompatibility in these principles with Islam whose fundamental tenets include the pursuit of social justice. The values of fair play should apply when actions of a tiny minority amongst us are used to judge and condemn us as communities and as a faith.

We do not seek parallel legal systems, nor do we aim to enforce on anyone any particular code or way of life. But we do expect a fair discourse free from the current shrill hysteria screaming of impending doom from invading hordes.

Notwithstanding the barrage of hysteria and demonisation; despite the innuendo of disloyalty that bedevils our leaders and our institutions, and even though our media and public officials happily marginalise our faith and community, we are determined to redouble our efforts and seek the common good and reaffirm that we are equal citizens.

As many of our opinion-formers have now have proven to be incapable of creating a positive discourse, it is down to us, at grassroots level, to dispel the misconceptions, the hatred and the divisive extremism both against as well as amongst Muslims.

We urge all fellow British Muslims to reach out and create positive connections with neighbours and friends. We remind ourselves that with rights comes responsibilities and that we remain at all times accountable to God for our thoughts as well as deeds.

Issued by the Muslim Council of Britain, the British Muslim Forum and a coalition of Muslim and concerned organisations.

@'Reality'

My my you 'really' have got verbal diarrhoea. Go get some immodium, silly.

What a funny girl you are!

There can NEVER be Shariah in the land of Kuffar (as you and your ilk might say). We will never allow you to marry off your six-year old daughters to 55 year old men!

Why are you hanging around in the land of Shaitan, girl?

We drink, we fight, we fornicate, we eat pigs, we gamble and we don't believe in God. But that's us.

And that's not you.

We didn't ask you or your illegal immigrant parents to come here. So leave.
Period.

Reality

I shall laugh if you get to A&E (Allah forfend!) and a 'sodomite' doctor tries to save your life!

You believe that: Sahabah=Muhammad=Allah

That is shirq.

Are you really a Muslim? Is you purpose to give Muslims a bad name and stir up hatred of Muslims?

Hmmm. I wonder.

Can't see why you keep appearing here and spreading your message of hate and discord.

You are undermining everyhting that MPAC is desperately trying to achieve. You don't seem to believe in ANY of their objectives.

@Azaad

yaaaaaaaaawn.

Azaad you Hadith rejecting apostate how many names are you going to use here to spread your anti-Islamic ideas?

Keeping it on a light note as both your posts was void of any constructive content stemming from your intellectual bankruptcy due to your medieval and backward mindset not fit for the 21st centaury:

You just don’t seem to get it do you? - The future is Eurabia and Londonistan as its capital - I suggest you pack your bags for the North Pole? Haven’t you seen above - the Shariah ruling on apostates?

And on a serious note – my my – isn’t it peculiar that Hadith rejecting apostates and others belonging to quasi-Islamic sects are so desperate in giving their full support to MPACUK.

Hmmmm. I wonder.

How can youc claim that the pathetic mantra of no political involvement by the Hizb is not to blame for the attacks by politicians and the Media?

Because of this pathetic groups argument, thousands of would be educated people stayed away from the one thing that could give them voice - Politics!

Barbarossa

I think you misunderstand 'Politics'.
Being involved in politics and political action does not automatically translate into 'parliamentary participation', the Hizb have been discussing and debating (and encouraging interaction and debate)on these issues (e.g Sharia, foreign policy , the Hijab, 'terrorism' etc) for years with muslims and non-muslims in the media and wider community.
Furthermore if you look at the current batch of Muslim MP's , how many actually represent muslim interests,? are they sincere or do they merely follow what the Party Whip orders them to, for example how many voted against the extension of detention without charge for suspected terrorists?.
Trying to lay the finger of blame at one or other group is not the answer, rather people should find the intellectual courage to debate and tackle the issues at hand, in this case the debate about Shariah.

Ben Dith courts have no legal standing in the UK. There is no such thing in English Law as Jewish Marriage, divorce etc.They all have to be ratified under English, Scottish or NI Law. English Law allows Muslims or any one else to do the same. The Archbishop of Canterbury has caused mischief by bringing the Jews into this discussion. His error was pointed out to him but he repeated it any way. One wonders what his motives were. As for the MCB, their first paragraph is laughable considering the enmity between the Shia and Sunni sects. They must inhabit a world of their own.

I have to agree with Azaad that Reality sounds like anagent provocateur, but he seems to cover his tracks and back up everything with quotations from Islamic scriptures. Can anyone prove he's unislamic?

Reality

Stop pretending.

Your verbose, pretentious, and faux 'Hadith' worshipping, fools no one, and doesn't detract from the fact that you have not denied you are guilty of shirq. Remember that any self-proclaimed Muslim who denies the ABSOLUTE supremacy of Allah is an apostate. Nothing and nobody, or their word, is equal to Allah. Do you deny Allah's ABSOLUTE supremacy? It seems that you do. You claim that Al-Bukhari and Jibril are equal. Indeed, the way you rant on anyone would think YOUR word has absolute supremacy!

(Your thinking is very 'Christian': they state that the Gospel -- which is the Christian 'Hadith' -- 'according' to Matthew/Mark/Luke/John is the 'word of God')

Also, its interesting to see that you have admitted that you don't support MPAC, and what it stands for.

Why do you keep appearing here? It's time you stopped smearing Islam's name. You clearly believe in something, but is it Islam? (you keep mis-translating Quranic verses)

Muslims can do without foolish deceivers like you.

And note MPAC's rules about posting comments ("please keep your comment brief") before you go on a rant...

Colin:

that's exactly the expression I should have used - agent provocateur. It is un-Islamic to claim that Allah's word (as recorded in the Quraan) is not absolutely supreme. Also Reality (cleverly deceptive name) fails to understand the real-time revelatory nature of the Quraan: it didn't come in one go. Many of the legal edicts changed progressively, due to the new regulatory requirement necessitated by actual changing events during the (23 year) ministry of the Prophet(pbuh). References to 'jews', 'Christians' etc aren't necessarily generic, but specific to those tribes with whom the early Muslims had treaties, and which treaties were reneged upon, thus rendering the offending party(ies) as enemies of Muslims.

Sodomites/Apostates: if ‘Reality’ ever needs a blood transfusion (which is accepted in Islam, because it saves life), I wonder if he(?she) will ask whether it is from a sodomite/apostate? Or will he/she reject a 'sodomite' fireman who comes to put a fire out in her/his house?

Also the likes of him/her believe the Hadith regarding the marriage of Ayesha to the Prophet (pbuh) when she was 6. However in the Quraan [an-Nisa' 4:6] it states: ”Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them”. A girl of 6 would not be of sound judgement, and, if a trustee cannot release property to a girl of 6, how can a man in his fifties be allowed to marry her? This shows that that Hadith contradicts the Quraan.

Denying the supremacy of the Quraan is un-Islamic. A lot of the Shariah (but not all) is judge-made law, same as when judges in English courts interpret an Act of Parliament. However, as Yasmin AliBhai-Brown has said, much of this judge-made Shariah is derived from interpretations as far back as the Middle Ages, and have not been re-interpreted in the light of modern technological developments, e.g. does watching TV contravene the law against 'graven images'?.

Part 5:

InshAllah I will keep this short as possible as the bulk of what I wished to state on this “debate” on the Shariah have been stated – whether anyone likes it or not.

First let me reiterate again the Shariah especially it’s Hudud (Prescribed Punishments) is not called for by any Muslims in Britain - its application is only called for in the Muslim world. Muslim Brts here like the rest of the Brits are law abiding citizens and we get along just fine with everybody else whether with our non-Muslim neighbors, colleagues at work or others within the community.

Second – what Non-Muslims must realize is that Shariah is apart and parcel of our beliefs – and no Muslim is going to change his/her beliefs just to please you. Likewise I do not expect you to change any of your religious beliefs etc just to please us – you just simply have to get over the fact that there are fellow Brits – fellow countrymen who are Muslim by faith and believe in the Shariah and its supremacy.

"To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism)." (Al-Kafirun 109:6)

Third – as for any racist dim wits here – who shout the slogans of – “get out of our country” – face the reality – this is MY flipping country every inch of it – and it is of no surprise that you spastic, obtuse, mental retards who cannot contribute any constructive thoughts nor articulate any intelligent arguments put forth just simply lash out at the entire world and any people who may look different to you due and stemming solely from your own laughable pathetic deficiencies of which in consequence my hard earned cash goes to feeding you - waste of space - bums - every time you sign on the DOLL – and the only plausible job prospects you really have is as a “laborer” at the construction site sweeping the floor.

My advice to you is to learn to read and write. Things will then make sense and your life will get a bit better.

Fourth – Colin with all due respect – “agent provocateur?”- Frankly a comment from a non-Muslim backing a Hadith rejecting apostate (who is also a non-Muslim) does not qualify nor has any value.

Part 6:

Fifth – to my lost friend Azaad – so now I am a “Hadith worshipping fool” – take note all Muslims - as now his enmity to our Religion surfaces for all to see – Azaad you need to realize – YOU – are the enemy from within who pursue the path of diluting this Religion – a Religion that has been perfected by Allah Himself. Continue in your path of destruction that will only lead to the Hellfire for your mask has fallen after your deceptive, deceitful, and scheming method and agenda to fool unsuspecting Muslims and that is sufficient for your ideas not to take any foothold within the Ummah of Muhammad (saw).

And quickly on the issue of the sodomites – in an Islamic state - the sodomite is killed only for COMMITTING sodomite actions either by 4 witnesses testifying against them who witnessed this or by confession by the sodomites themselves similar conditions in the case of the adulterer– not simply because he is a homosexual without the absence of the above conditions for a conviction – the Islamic state cannot carry out capital punishment on homosexuals without these conditions of convictions! - so what has a homosexual fireman, blood transfusion from a homosexual and homosexual doctor got to do with anything in this issue?! – For Gods Sakes Azaad are you now trying to justify homosexuality itself? In any case know homosexuality is a mental disease contradictory to the natural disposition that requires a medical treatment.

And “References to 'jews', 'Christians' etc aren't necessarily generic” – who decides – you? – azaad you Hadith rejecting apostate – please stop chatting sh** and take this very serious advice:

Stop bleaching your face because you so desperately wish to become “white” and fight your inferiority complexes – we can help you in this – and DON’T even think about taking any other extreme measures to look “white” – you may end up looking like Michael Jackson!

And as I said before if however your are one of them illegal immigrants living here who feel the need to polish the shoes of the native Brits every time you see them – p*** off back to your countries.

Reality

Which DOLL is it we sign on? Please learn to read and write!

What kind of deranged book do you get your information on Europe from? I quote:
However Modern day standards in Europe at the time regarded Women as marginally better then animals.
For your information, the Celts, who were occupying Europe [and Britain] since long before you prophet was born and from whom many of todays Britons are descended had laws which gave women totally equal rights to men, in fact in several instances they were superior. Women could and did own property, were soverigns, and could divorce a man with ease. They were accorded equal rights in life and in death long before your propher appeared and decided they should be treated as less than men, that they should be the property of a man. So please don't peddle your ignorance of OUR history here or anywhere else. Stick to what you know.

Which is precisely why you haven't progressed since when was it, the 9th century? The rest of the world, especially the secular world has moved on, progressed to more enlightened attitudes, seen where ignorance in the past caused suffering, injustice and pain, and changed things. Are you defending the practice of stoning to death for adultery? I think we should know.
Your 'fixed reference point' is our 'outmoded, backward attitude'. It may comfort you to know you don't have to think or question anything, but we prefer to critical, intellectual approach that believes that only thus can humans progress. It was once thought absolutely fine, healthy even, to smoke tobacco, today we know better. It was once thought fine to eat dogs, and in some countries they still do, but here in the West we realise that dogs are intelligent, sentient, emotional creatures that deserve our respect and even love. WE move on, we are modern. If you can't handle that, why are you here in the West, if indeed you are here? If you are somewhere else, a Muslim country [?] then what do you think gives you the right to be commenting on a British issue?

Here we see the problem encapsulated. The true believer in all his bigotry and hatred. As a 'kufar' as you call us in your racist inlamatory way, I can think for myslef, unlike you who needs to have it all written down by someone hundreds of years ago. Whatever makes you think he had it right and wasn't just on a power trip to control ignorant people?
You are one angry, illogical, verse quoting idiot. You don't know how to think, but quote endless little tidbits which presumably impress you and make you feel strong, but don't impress anyone else. You are at heart a fascist, it screams from your every sentence, and we know how to deal with fascists, we;ve had experience of home grown European ones. If you are in the UK, I suggest you leave pretty soon; you aren't welcome and you endanger the safety and happiness of all the reasonable, pleasant, understanding, caring, intelligent Muslims who live here. You are a threat and I wouldn't be surprised if you admitted to being trained by that other hate peddler, Abu Hansa who after his sentence will be off to the US to end his days in a yankee prsion, where he belongs.

I think you'll find 'every inch' of this country isn't yours, most of it belongs to the descendants of the Normans. Not up on history either are you?
As for your ludicrous allegation of racism, I've not read a single racist word here except yours; kufar ring any bells? Brits normally spell the kafir by the way.
The theory you are an agent provocateur is an interesting one, and several things point to that such as Eurabia and Londonistan as no Muslim would, I feel, use those terms. But your diatribe against those you call a whole list of unjustified names you couldn't possible back up with any facts is really pathetic, and mispelled - it's DOLE as any Brit would know, and laborer is American spelling, so, speaking as a forensic linguist, I declare you to be American, even though you used the word flipping, which is well known in America due to Dick Van Dyke's silly ****ney rendition some years ago.
So, American, and I would guess neo-con, possibly Jewish or Christian Right, and with the motive of smearing Muslims wholesale by publicising the most lurid Islamist porn about Shariah to make all right minded people feel disgust.
But seems your plan failed here, as everyone is united in condemning you. Tough. Try the kiddies websites where you'll be more amongst your equalsm but do try not to give them nightmares, there are enough of those in the world since the idiot Bush seized power.

You seem obsessed with gays, not out of the closet yet? Never mind, no one knows you like to dress in women's underwear and read the Qu'an while flagelating yourself, it takes all sorts as we in the west often say.
By the way oh enlightened one, how can a non-muslim be also an apostate? As in 'Frankly a comment from a non-Muslim backing a Hadith rejecting apostate (who is also a non-Muslim) does not qualify nor has any value.'

Reality

With your attitude:

1) You are not, and never will be a 'Brit'.

2) If you are a Muslim, as you claim, then you have to prove(a) you have accepted the ABSOLUTE syupremacy of Allah (and that Allah is greater than Al-Bukhari)-- I note that you refuse to accept Allah's word as ABSOLUTELY above all -- (I'll let others judge whether that makes YOU an Apostate); (b)you have to improve your language (nto use indecent words); (c)you must not be racist.

3) You could be a non-Muslim pretending to be a Muslim, making inflammatory/hateful statements, hoping to attract opposition to the Ummah (you have not denied that you could be an agent provocateur). No real Muslim would have a 'holier-than-thou' attitude, like yours.

As I have asked you many time before: why do you hang around in the land of the kuffar?

Smile at us, pay us, pass us; but do not quite forget;
For we are the people of England, that never have spoken yet.

lol – well, well well -what do we have here - let me keep it short – to the non-Muslim posters – the kuffar - May Allah Guide you to Islam and specifically to the Hadith rejecting apostate Azaad – this is my final post in this thread inshAllah - Allah (SWT) said:

“But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” (An-Nisa 4:65)

“None disputes in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh but those who disbelieve. So let not their ability of going about here and there through the land (for their purposes) deceive you [O Muhammad SAW, their ultimate end will be the Fire of Hell]!”
(Ghafir 40:4)

“And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery!” (Al-Kahf 18:56)

“And it has already been revealed to you in the Book (this Qur'ân) that when you hear the Verses of Allâh being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allâh will collect the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in Hell,” (An-Nisa 4:140)

“Therefore withdraw from him who turns away from Our Reminder (this Qur'ân) and desires nothing but the life of this world.” (An-Najm 53:29)

'Reality'

You have been found wanting: you refuse to accept the ABSOLUTE supremacy of the word of Allah. Why is that? It should be easy if you 'really' are a Muslim!

Even if you quoted the entire Quraan, the fact that your heart/tongue cannot bring itself to accept/utter that Allah's word is ABSOLUTELY supreme, it would not save you from shirq.

'Which is precisely why you haven't progressed since when was it, the 9th century? The rest of the world, especially the secular world has moved on, progressed to more enlightened attitudes, seen where ignorance in the past caused suffering, injustice and pain, and changed things. Are you defending the practice of stoning to death for adultery? I think we should know.
Your 'fixed reference point' is our 'outmoded, backward attitude'. It may comfort you to know you don't have to think or question anything, but we prefer to critical, intellectual approach that believes that only thus can humans progress. It was once thought absolutely fine, healthy even, to smoke tobacco, today we know better. It was once thought fine to eat dogs, and in some countries they still do, but here in the West we realise that dogs are intelligent, sentient, emotional creatures that deserve our respect and even love. WE move on, we are modern. If you can't handle that, why are you here in the West, if indeed you are here? If you are somewhere else, a Muslim country [?] then what do you think gives you the right to be commenting on a British issue?[/quote]

That depends on what you term 'progression', the development of 'new'ideas and values over a period of time, say centuries, does not automatically prove that these values provide social stability, cohesion and 'enlightenment'.
That is why throughout history Islam provied a firm and fixed basis, not subject to erratic and erroneous change, from which its legal, social and economic system is derived, and whilst this system endured and was correctly implemented the Islamic World proved to be the leader in technological, scientific and cultural development.

This brings me to your evident ignorance of Islam in general.
You give two examples: one relating to dogs and the other to smoking tobacco and how attitudes have changed and we don't eat dogs, or consider smoking tobacco healthy, well, in Islam both the eating of dogs was prohibited 1400 years ago and there are classical Islamic opinions that either prohibit smoking or discourage it as being undesirable, due to it's harmful effects.
In fact , on another point,Islamic law preserved in principle and as part of its legal code the rights of women to own property, participate in politics, own busineses, divorce and even participate in military activities at a time (c 7th Century) when the Church was debating whether women had souls or not!

Islam does not need to go through a bitter struggle as did Europe (between the Church and state) or to adopt secularism to 'progress', it already has a mechanism called 'Ijtihad' an intellectual process that enables the 'fixed reference point' I was alluding to in my earlier post to be applied to different situations and realities, that, however does not mean that Islams core values and concepts or laws can be diluted or overuled on a whim.

Currently the west is trying to stamp its secular values on the rest of the world through force (e.g Iraq, Afghanistan, etc), values which have been rejected by these 'beneficiaries'of this neo-colonial policy.

But lets look closer to home, in the U.K. today secular law is unable even to accomodate the the voluntary arbitration of the personal law of Muslims (though it has done to a certain extent for Orthodox Jews, e.g.Beth Din) at a civil level, so much for tolerance or enlightened values?
Compare this to the Shariah, which throughout history permitted minorities to adopt their own civil codes regarding divorce, inheritance etc.

Hence,Secularism is fundamentally problematic because it has not got a core reference point and hence cannot provide cohesion or long term stability in society, since it's goalposts are alway shifting.