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| The shadowy role of Labour Friends of Israel |
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| Tuesday, 04 December 2007 | |
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y.alibhai-brown@independent.co.uk 03 December 2007           Readers have left 70 comments.
Taz:
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LFI and CFI are clearly a barrier to peace because theyt work to prolong the suffering of the Palestinians. They funnel money to politicians who expedite weapons for their wars and make the Middle-East unstable.
(1)
2007-12-04 01:18:59
MelanieP:
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What a very silly Yasmin, the Forest Gump of journalism.
Quote: "The LFI take, by definition, has to be partisan. It exists to present the official Israeli view; it cannot be nuanced or considerate to "the enemy". I would venture to suggest that Tony Blair's abject performance during the last Israeli assault on Lebanon was partly the result of the special relationship he had with LFI. The current scandal and its links to LFI only encourages fascist and Islamicist propagators of the idea of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy. Look on the crazed websites today and you see how they feed on this crisis and rejoice. LFI is the most successful of many interest groups which have been allowed to exert undue pressure on policies." Well Yasmin we will look at even MORE crazed websites who will report your crazed article and stoke the crazed fires. You say that the Lobby has to be biased in favour of Israel and yet you state that Abrahams left LFI (IN 2002 as Wendy Mann will tell you) because he wanted a dialogue with Hamas - hardly supporting Labour then! Its always a sign wof who someone really is when they have to invike "I daresay some will call me Antisemitic". I know her writing well and I know where my vote is.
(2)
2007-12-04 07:46:07
shem:
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She describes Abrahams as a 'strange shape-shifter'. This is classic medieval jew-hating imagery. Anyone not seen Borat when the Jewish B&B hosts shift-shape into ****roaches?
(4)
2007-12-04 09:19:12
you muppet:
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lol
looks like the Israeli lobby are having a hard time, long time coming I say. i want to see Jews distancing themselves and condeming pro Israeli groups. Then and only then will I believe that the jewish community is doing enough to fight Zionist extremists. well done Yasmin.
(5)
2007-12-04 09:20:13
shem:
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OK - perhaps not 'classic' and 'medieval' in the same sentence but 'age-old' and unpleasant stuff. What's the point: Jews can't have interests they lobby for?
(6)
2007-12-04 09:20:52
shem:
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Guess what you muppet - the Jewish community isn't answerable to you.
(7)
2007-12-04 09:22:26
AA:
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Melanie P
The only one that looks crazy around here is you. Get a grip you extremist.
(8)
2007-12-04 10:01:35
AA:
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Guess what Shem, all British politicians are accountable to us, the Britsh electorate.
This is not Israel but Britain. Where do your loyalties lie?
(9)
2007-12-04 10:36:56
azaad:
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No one should be a friend of Israel, unless Israel is prepared to hear the truth: 1) its existence is a result of the most stupid revision of history (where is the 'ancestral' home of the Red Indians?); 2)the crimes against the Jewish peoples should be visited upon the perpetrators, i.e. Europeans, and Jews should be given European lands as recompense; 3)Jews are not the indigenous peoples of the land known as Palestine (even the Bible describes races already living there at the time of the Exodus); 4)Jewish claim on the Palestinian lands is based on a version of a document (Torah) which is supposed to have been 'written' by Moses, in c.1400BC -- but the oldest known copy is dated at approx. 130BC (Dead Sea scrolls), which means that there is NO record for about 1,270 years; 5)Millions of Jews choose not to live in Israel; 6)the Balfour Declaration is morally (if not technically) illegal since the parties to the 'agreement' did NOT include people whose land was confiscated (and therefore not binding on them); 7) the conduct of Israelis towards Palestinians betrays an inhumane regard for their welfare/survival.
I don't know what the solution is, but here's a suggestion: either the US/Europe (because it is they, and not the surrounding Arab countries, who set up Israel) accept all the Palestinian refugees in a one-time mass-migration as their own citizens, or, they repatriate all the Jews from Israel and give them land/housing to settle in US/Europe (which will be the only real 'support' for the Jewish comminity)leaving the Palestinians to re-settle the land. Its seems that these two peoples cannot any longer live side by side. The rest of us can then breathe a sigh of relief.
(10)
2007-12-04 10:41:31
shem:
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I said the Jewish community isn't answerable to 'you muppet' not British politicians. And why shouldn't the Jewish community support pro-Israel groups? That is what 'you muppet' was demanding. So perhaps you should read things twice.
(11)
2007-12-04 10:55:57
shem:
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shamsur
so now you have faith in US Intelligence. Since when? Yesterday? Besides Iran is still enriching uranium and could have enough weapons grade material anywhere between 2009-2015.
(12)
2007-12-04 11:17:31
Matthew Alsop:
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I knew we wouldn't have a long wait for something like this to appear on the MPACUK website. Be careful who you throw muck at - the wind will change direction and it will come back to you.
As Shem said - the Jewish community isn't answerable to you. It's best not to be judge and jury, as well. If you want investigations into organisations which support Israel, let's have the same investigations into those who support Muslim interests and Palestinian interests. While we're at it why not look at the links CAIR has to organisations like yours?
(13)
2007-12-04 11:27:00
AA:
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Why do people keep dragging comments off topic.
MPAC mods please take note.
(14)
2007-12-04 11:32:32
europamedical:
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The effect of PACs on American politics should be ample warning not to have similar, often malign influence lobbies growing more powerful here. Reresentation of views is one thing - manipulation based on funding is quite another .
(15)
2007-12-04 13:22:29
RSD:
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Azaad; What an interesting perspective. Can the so-called Palestinians prove that they are descendants of the people that have lived there since Canaan, and are not descendants of colonial imperialists. For surely the descendants of those that participated in any of the successive invasions and conquests should not benefit from their crimes any more than these Zionists should be allowed to benefit?
If there is a clear distintion between the Palestinians and the Jews then a simple DNA test should be able to identify those who do or do not belong. As for the existance of ancient documents, can any Muslim provide a copy of any version of the Koran which has been authored by Muhammed? If not can we reasonable assume that the Koran that is readily available is merely a fabrication in his name? The EU nor USA is not going to take the 4-5 million people you suggest. If the Jews were to leave "palestine" why should they all go to EU / USA. The majority of Israeli Jews come from the Middle East and North Africa, it was not the EU or USA that asset stripped them and expelled them. & what of the Mustarib Jews who have lived in Palestine since the time of Abraham, are they to be kicked out too? It is interesting to note that you do not condemn the Arab states for denying the Palestinians their rights as refugees as defined by international law.
(16)
2007-12-04 13:38:54
TeddyBear:
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No one should be a friend of Israel, unless Israel is prepared to hear the truth: 1) its existence is a result of the most stupid revision of history (where is the 'ancestral' home of the Red Indians?); 2)the crimes against the Jewish peoples should be visited upon the perpetrators, i.e. Europeans, and Jews should be given European lands as recompense; 3)Jews are not the indigenous peoples of the land known as Palestine (even the Bible describes races already living there at the time of the Exodus); 4)Jewish claim on the Palestinian lands is based on a version of a document (Torah) which is supposed to have been 'written' by Moses, in c.1400BC -- but the oldest known copy is dated at approx. 130BC (Dead Sea scrolls), which means that there is NO record for about 1,270 years; 5)Millions of Jews choose not to live in Israel; 6)the Balfour Declaration is morally (if not technically) illegal since the parties to the 'agreement' did NOT include people whose land was confiscated (and therefore not binding on them); 7) the conduct of Israelis towards Palestinians betrays an inhumane regard for their welfare/survival. — azaadI don't know what the solution is, but here's a suggestion: either the US/Europe (because it is they, and not the surrounding Arab countries, who set up Israel) accept all the Palestinian refugees in a one-time mass-migration as their own citizens, or, they repatriate all the Jews from Israel and give them land/housing to settle in US/Europe (which will be the only real 'support' for the Jewish comminity)leaving the Palestinians to re-settle the land. Its seems that these two peoples cannot any longer live side by side. The rest of us can then breathe a sigh of relief. Puh-lease! Why are you peddling a complete revision of history and facts? It does you no credit and reflects badly on MPAC UK. The crime of pogroms and making Jews flee their ancestral home pre-dates The Holocaust by thousands of years. It has NOTHING to do with The Holocaust since the Jewish National Home was established in 1922. 1922 is a smaller number than 1945!
(17)
2007-12-04 14:05:05
TeddyBear:
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lol — you muppetlooks like the Israeli lobby are having a hard time, long time coming I say. i want to see Jews distancing themselves and condeming pro Israeli groups. Then and only then will I believe that the jewish community is doing enough to fight Zionist extremists. well done Yasmin. I'd like to see Muslims distancing themselves from terrorism and anti-Semitism such that when I next read a poll about support for acts of terrorism from the Muslim community and asking if Jews in the UK are legitimate targets then the results are Zero in both cases.
(18)
2007-12-04 14:19:31
europamedical:
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"the Jewish National Home was established in 1922 " ??????
The British Mandate for Palestine was established in 1922, after the Treaty of Sevres. The purpose was to administer the parts of the former Ottoman Empire after WW1. It included the territory that now comprises most of modern-day Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It operated until the establishment of TransJordan in 1946 and the zionist inspired Israel in 1948.
(19)
2007-12-04 14:41:18
TeddyBear:
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"the Jewish National Home was established in 1922 " ?????? — europamedicalYes, the Mandate for Palestine defined the geographical scope of the Jewish National Home as comnprising an area called Palestine (which included Jordan). Hence the home for Jews was established in 1922. It was subsequent to the stealing of the land for Jordan followed by attacks on Jews that compressed the land they occupied into defendable areas and then got re-defined in 1948 and 1967. Strictly-speaking, according to the original mandate, the Palestinian are occupying Jewish Land. But hey, let's be fair. Let them have a state and stop bothering people.
(20)
2007-12-04 15:11:55
wendy mann:
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You say that the Lobby has to be biased in favour of Israel and yet you state that Abrahams left LFI (IN 2002 as Wendy Mann will tell you) because he wanted a dialogue with Hamas - hardly supporting Labour then! what this tell us is by how much the lfi has influence over new labour, it is not the person seeking dialogue that has to leave the group but those do want dialogue with the palestinians. but lets not kid ourselves that anyone that is or has been linked with the lfi as peaceniks or liberals when it comes to justice as far as the palestinians are concerned. shem: "I said the Jewish community isn't answerable to 'you muppet' not British politicians" the jewish community it appears are only answerable to israel.
(21)
2007-12-04 15:12:39
I Sidat:
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"the Jewish National Home was established in 1922 " ?????? — europamedicalThe British Mandate for Palestine was established in 1922, after the Treaty of Sevres. The purpose was to administer the parts of the former Ottoman Empire after WW1. It included the territory that now comprises most of modern-day Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It operated until the establishment of TransJordan in 1946 and the zionist inspired Israel in 1948. The jewish a,mndate was made after world war 2 get a grip Check out the Balfour decleration
(22)
2007-12-04 15:36:20
shan:
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So using teddybears logic,it is ok to steal what does not belong to you and then give to someone else in leu of servcies rendered.
so logically israel is built upon stolen property which it knew was stolen in the first place,in law that is called obtaining and handling stolen property by deception and you get locked up for that.
(23)
2007-12-04 15:41:09
I Sidat:
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How amny stupid people are there in this world?
Israeli decelration was not made untill after world war two, bearing in mind before this time britian were the ones along with other european countries were showing hostility toward the jews. Use some common sense for god sake, where do you people get your information from! Israel would not have been possible without the massive dumping of jews in palestine during the nazi era, amd when they all decided to come abck to the holy land, if it was holy why did they leave in the first place. Palstinians have more right than anyone else they did not leave thy stayed through decades of oppression and still are, this is what i call courage. We are in support of a two state solution but its Israel that are not returning to the origianl mandate
(24)
2007-12-04 15:42:53
Tania:
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Melanie P is starting to sound like a 'Mad Mel'.
How rude to call yasmin Forest Gump - surely freedom of speech allows for Yasmin to voice her thoughts of unease. The same unease that the Telegraph showed through its front page cover of Abrahams with the Israeli ambassador. Is the Telegraph the Forest Gump of newspapers or is such rudeness to a fellow professional only allowed if that person is a Muslim. You should know better Melanie. You sound liek a hysterical mad woman
(25)
2007-12-04 16:40:47
you muppet:
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looks like the ZIon Nazi shock troops are trying to divert the debate.
lets me guess no detractor of Yasmin will admit she had a point that back room lobbyist need to be tackled including Israeli lobbiest. and secondly no pro israeli voice will keep to the topic. And the best part is, LFI is being exposed, because thats exactly what the british public need to wake up to Zionist influence. LOL. wonderful.
(26)
2007-12-04 16:52:21
shem:
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I merely said that the Jewish community is not answerable to posters on this website. are you suggesting that the Jewish community speaks with one voice - as a race of people? Be careful. Would you say that the Muslim community is answerable to the British electorate and that it speaks as one?
Are you suggesting the Jewish community considers itself loyal only to Israel? Wendy Mann, the implications of your words are racist. Won't 5 Live post your comments. Why do you think it's Ok to come to a 'Muslim' site to vent your spleen? Doyou think you will find a sympathetic ear?
(27)
2007-12-04 16:59:26
TeddyBear:
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"the Jewish National Home was established in 1922 " ?????? — I SidatThe British Mandate for Palestine was established in 1922, after the Treaty of Sevres. The purpose was to administer the parts of the former Ottoman Empire after WW1. It included the territory that now comprises most of modern-day Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It operated until the establishment of TransJordan in 1946 and the zionist inspired Israel in 1948. The jewish a,mndate was made after world war 2 get a grip Check out the Balfour decleration Sorry but you and the others who believe this as a fact are deluding themselves in a major way. Complete ignorance of history is what leads you to the mistake of believing Israel has no right to exist. From Wikipedia (and a million other sourcese) "The British Mandate for Palestine, sometimes referred to as the Mandate of Palestine, was a League of Nations Mandate created after the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was split by the Treaty of Sèvres. The British Mandate of Palestine comprised territory that now comprises most of modern-day Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The borders of the Mandate for Palestine extended from the Mediterranean Sea to the west, the French Mandate of Lebanon, French Mandate of Syria, and the British Mandate of Mesopotamia to the north, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to the east and south, and the Kingdom of Egypt to the south-west. The British Mandate operated from 1923 until the independence of Transjordan (later renamed Jordan) in 1946 and of Israel in 1948. The objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the then defunct Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone." THE MANDATE OPERATED FROM 1923 NOT 1948!!!!!!!!!
(28)
2007-12-04 17:52:07
TeddyBear:
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So using teddybears logic,it is ok to steal what does not belong to you and then give to someone else in leu of servcies rendered. — shanso logically israel is built upon stolen property which it knew was stolen in the first place,in law that is called obtaining and handling stolen property by deception and you get locked up for that. But it was originally stolen from the Jews and granted to them by Allah. SO, the 'stolen property' has been handed back to its rightful owners.
(29)
2007-12-04 17:53:35
TeddyBear:
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How amny stupid people are there in this world? — I SidatIsraeli decelration was not made untill after world war two, bearing in mind before this time britian were the ones along with other european countries were showing hostility toward the jews. Use some common sense for god sake, where do you people get your information from! Israel would not have been possible without the massive dumping of jews in palestine during the nazi era, amd when they all decided to come abck to the holy land, if it was holy why did they leave in the first place. Palstinians have more right than anyone else they did not leave thy stayed through decades of oppression and still are, this is what i call courage. We are in support of a two state solution but its Israel that are not returning to the origianl mandate How many stupid people are there? Well tell me how many of your friends believe the same as you and I can then estimate! The mandate for a Jewish Nation was declared in 1922. It was named Israel in 1948 after the declaration of Independence. You are confusing the two events. Note the Balfour Declaration and Mandate for Palestinie granting the Jewish Nation more land than Israel today occupies. Palestinians are actually living on land granted to the Jewish Nation. But as I said, Israel will make do with what it has and the Palestinians may have a state.
(30)
2007-12-04 17:56:50
TeddyBear:
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Melanie P is starting to sound like a 'Mad Mel'. — TaniaHow rude to call yasmin Forest Gump - surely freedom of speech allows for Yasmin to voice her thoughts of unease. The same unease that the Telegraph showed through its front page cover of Abrahams with the Israeli ambassador. Is the Telegraph the Forest Gump of newspapers or is such rudeness to a fellow professional only allowed if that person is a Muslim. You should know better Melanie. You sound liek a hysterical mad woman Correct about one thing. Free speech allows me to refer to Yasmin as "Forrest Gump" based on her performances on various media programs and her writing. Yasmin Alibaba Brown has a great deal of form in sailing close to the lines of anti-Semitism. It would not suprise me if someone made a justified complaint.
(31)
2007-12-04 17:59:22
TeddyBear:
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looks like the ZIon Nazi shock troops are trying to divert the debate. — you muppetlets me guess no detractor of Yasmin will admit she had a point that back room lobbyist need to be tackled including Israeli lobbiest. and secondly no pro israeli voice will keep to the topic. And the best part is, LFI is being exposed, because thats exactly what the british public need to wake up to Zionist influence. LOL. wonderful. Hey, I think its great if you question LFI because it will divert attention from the CFoI, which features 30% of Conservative MP's and people who are policy advisers to the forthcoming Conservative Govt. You simply cannot separate Labour and Conservative MP's from who they choose as their friends and I suspect anyone who tries to tell them who their friends should be is going to get short shrift. You seem to have some fantasy that our politicians will favour a bunch of terrorist Palestinians over a valuable member of the International Community. Live in great hope because the disappointment will be a massive blow to you.
(32)
2007-12-04 18:03:16
TeddyBear:
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I merely said that the Jewish community is not answerable to posters on this website. are you suggesting that the Jewish community speaks with one voice - as a race of people? Be careful. Would you say that the Muslim community is answerable to the British electorate and that it speaks as one? — shemAre you suggesting the Jewish community considers itself loyal only to Israel? Wendy Mann, the implications of your words are racist. Won't 5 Live post your comments. Why do you think it's Ok to come to a 'Muslim' site to vent your spleen? Doyou think you will find a sympathetic ear? I note wendy has already been exposed and slated in Blogland.
(33)
2007-12-04 18:04:37
TeddyBear:
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"the Jewish National Home was established in 1922 " ?????? — I SidatThe British Mandate for Palestine was established in 1922, after the Treaty of Sevres. The purpose was to administer the parts of the former Ottoman Empire after WW1. It included the territory that now comprises most of modern-day Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It operated until the establishment of TransJordan in 1946 and the zionist inspired Israel in 1948. The jewish a,mndate was made after world war 2 get a grip Check out the Balfour decleration How idiotic. We are being asked to read the Balfour Declaration of 1922 in order to verify what happened after 1948. What is Balfour Declaration? Perhaps its something from Nostradamus. Maybe its a crystal ball. Doh!!!!
(34)
2007-12-04 18:06:51
RSD:
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The central issue should be the role of lobby and interest groups in and around government, and there are very many of them. Each industry bloc has one, as well as virtually every siognificant country. To a greater or lesser extent they have money to fund various activities. Such has been the concern about corruption that MP's are now required to declare their interests. Despite Ms Alibhai's concerns, as far as I am aware there has been no connection between Israel and corruption. The Saudis and other Gulf States have been.
The allegations made against UK politicians who had positive attitudes towards Israel and friendships with Jews has long been a favourite target for the media and various pundits. This goes way back to Harold Wilson and Lord Kagan, yet no one demonstrated let alone proved any form of corruption. There are undoubtedly, and very properly, relations between the Israeli and UK governments at all levels, and it would be astonishing if there were not. There is the presumption that the LFI & CFI work against the interests of UK in favour of Israel, yet there appears to be no evidence to support this, and indeed history may demonstrate the opposite. It was alleged that in 1979 that the Foreign Minister Carington managed to alienate Begin so much that he instructed that Mossad and Sherut Bitachon only communicate with the Home Office and Ministry of Defence through official channels. The consequence was to immediately cut-off a daily supply of intelligence that the Israelis were providing to UK about IRA and other criminal activities. It was subsequently alleged that such was the antipathy towards Carrington because of this that the HO & MOD stitched him up over the Falklands and ensured that he paid the price. In addition Israel leads the world in joint research projects, and there is considerable competition among countries to access this source of knowledge and expertise. There is no equivalence in any Arab state for the Israel R&D establishment. It is therefore critical that UK gets its share if it is to remain at the forefront of technology. About 8 years ago it was the LFI & CFI who helped the export drive, and encouraged the Israelis to buy British in response to the trade imbalance in Israels favour.
(35)
2007-12-04 20:22:18
Julian:
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I refer everyone to the well-known document, 'The Protocols of the Elders of Wimbledon'.
I have proof of this conspiracy. Only 1.8% of the membership of my tennis club is Jewish, YET I HAVE NEVER YET WON A GAME. What more evidence do you need?
(36)
2007-12-04 20:33:42
Barbarossa:
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So using teddybears logic,it is ok to steal what does not belong to you and then give to someone else in leu of servcies rendered. — TeddyBearso logically israel is built upon stolen property which it knew was stolen in the first place,in law that is called obtaining and handling stolen property by deception and you get locked up for that. But it was originally stolen from the Jews and granted to them by Allah. SO, the 'stolen property' has been handed back to its rightful owners. Are you mad? Blaming Allah for theft ..you can only be a Zionist with that warped logic. Only you could blame God for your evil deeds ..and only you could think God was so evil. Sadly Muslims have a more just opinion of God.
(37)
2007-12-04 21:04:39
Barbarossa:
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"the Jewish National Home was established in 1922 " ?????? — TeddyBearThe British Mandate for Palestine was established in 1922, after the Treaty of Sevres. The purpose was to administer the parts of the former Ottoman Empire after WW1. It included the territory that now comprises most of modern-day Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It operated until the establishment of TransJordan in 1946 and the zionist inspired Israel in 1948. The jewish a,mndate was made after world war 2 get a grip Check out the Balfour decleration How idiotic. We are being asked to read the Balfour Declaration of 1922 in order to verify what happened after 1948. What is Balfour Declaration? Perhaps its something from Nostradamus. Maybe its a crystal ball. Doh!!!! Lol what an ignorant Zionist you are.
(38)
2007-12-04 21:06:51
Bananas:
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British Muslims are upset that elements related to the government support Israel? Well,shock horror. I as a British citizen support Israel too. Tough luck that not everybody here in Britain is rabidly against Israel. If it wasn't Zionists influencing the government and foreign policy, then it would be Islamic politics influencing and dictating the government and its foreign policy. So either way it's just a power race and once again Muslims are bitter that they've come second.
(39)
2007-12-04 21:52:23
azaad:
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TeddyBear
I believe the Balfour Declaration was in fact in 1917! I just wish the Jewish community would see the silliness of their purported position: the right to return to a 'homeland' after two thousand years -- this would suggest that Europeans should now return from North America, Central/South America and Australia, and the Red Indians, Incas/Aztecs, and Aborigines should re-take the legitimate title to their land. If you think that is absurd than you will see the absurdity that is Israel. Stop defending the indefensible! As for the Balfour Declaration: it's a bit like me occupying my neighbour's house and deciding that someone from another country can come and be the new owner, and that my erstwhile neighbour should 'respect' the 'rule of law'! Thus an obscenity gave birth to an absurdity!!
(40)
2007-12-04 22:38:10
TeddyBear:
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TeddyBear — azaadI believe the Balfour Declaration was in fact in 1917! I just wish the Jewish community would see the silliness of their purported position: the right to return to a 'homeland' after two thousand years -- this would suggest that Europeans should now return from North America, Central/South America and Australia, and the Red Indians, Incas/Aztecs, and Aborigines should re-take the legitimate title to their land. If you think that is absurd than you will see the absurdity that is Israel. Stop defending the indefensible! As for the Balfour Declaration: it's a bit like me occupying my neighbour's house and deciding that someone from another country can come and be the new owner, and that my erstwhile neighbour should 'respect' the 'rule of law'! Thus an obscenity gave birth to an absurdity!! OK then. Who's house was Palestine? WHy are you in favour of retaining the Genocide of Jews from their historical home?
(41)
2007-12-04 23:47:14
TeddyBear:
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The central issue should be the role of lobby and interest groups in and around government, and there are very many of them. Each industry bloc has one, as well as virtually every siognificant country. To a greater or lesser extent they have money to fund various activities. Such has been the concern about corruption that MP's are now required to declare their interests. Despite Ms Alibhai's concerns, as far as I am aware there has been no connection between Israel and corruption. The Saudis and other Gulf States have been. — RSDThe allegations made against UK politicians who had positive attitudes towards Israel and friendships with Jews has long been a favourite target for the media and various pundits. This goes way back to Harold Wilson and Lord Kagan, yet no one demonstrated let alone proved any form of corruption. There are undoubtedly, and very properly, relations between the Israeli and UK governments at all levels, and it would be astonishing if there were not. There is the presumption that the LFI & CFI work against the interests of UK in favour of Israel, yet there appears to be no evidence to support this, and indeed history may demonstrate the opposite. It was alleged that in 1979 that the Foreign Minister Carington managed to alienate Begin so much that he instructed that Mossad and Sherut Bitachon only communicate with the Home Office and Ministry of Defence through official channels. The consequence was to immediately cut-off a daily supply of intelligence that the Israelis were providing to UK about IRA and other criminal activities. It was subsequently alleged that such was the antipathy towards Carrington because of this that the HO & MOD stitched him up over the Falklands and ensured that he paid the price. In addition Israel leads the world in joint research projects, and there is considerable competition among countries to access this source of knowledge and expertise. There is no equivalence in any Arab state for the Israel R&D establishment. It is therefore critical that UK gets its share if it is to remain at the forefront of technology. About 8 years ago it was the LFI & CFI who helped the export drive, and encouraged the Israelis to buy British in response to the trade imbalance in Israels favour. Simply brilliant sanity has been brought to the Comments section.
(42)
2007-12-04 23:51:54
TeddyBear:
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Are you mad? Blaming Allah for theft ..you can only be a Zionist with that warped logic. Only you could blame God for your evil deeds ..and only you could think God was so evil. Sadly Muslims have a more just opinion of God. I am suprised at your lack of knowledge of The Koran. Quite clearly, Allah granted teh ancient Land of Israel to the Jewish nation. Allah never rescinded that gift and so only the Jews are entitled to sovreignty over The Land of Israel. Of course, Israel goes further and its constitution grants citizenship to all races and religions. Its sad that in order to hate Israel you have to indulge in apostacy.
(43)
2007-12-04 23:59:04
I Sidat:
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Teddy bear every academic who read your comments will be laughing, the league of nations decleration was made after the UN decleration which was well into the 70s.
Why can't you people understand the simple truth which is prior to the Balfi=our decleration there was no deal! there was wars, there were genocides but nothing concerning Jews in palestine, as a university student studying middle east matters am shocked to learn the stupidity coming out of many people on these threads The balfour decleration was made after world war two in order to address the situation of the european jewish plight.
(44)
2007-12-05 00:04:40
clearview:
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Alibhai-Brown knows only too well the mischief her apparent concern about for lobby groups in general but LFI in particular could cause. She carefully omits to mention all the pro-Palestininain lobby groups but alleges corruption. A dangerous game .
(45)
2007-12-05 00:20:23
TeddyBear:
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Teddy bear every academic who read your comments will be laughing, the league of nations decleration was made after the UN decleration which was well into the 70s. — I SidatWhy can't you people understand the simple truth which is prior to the Balfi=our decleration there was no deal! there was wars, there were genocides but nothing concerning Jews in palestine, as a university student studying middle east matters am shocked to learn the stupidity coming out of many people on these threads The balfour decleration was made after world war two in order to address the situation of the european jewish plight. You are NOT a student of Middle Eastern matters. Anyone with a single day's learning knows that the Balfour Declaration was before the First World War. Wikipedia:- "The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I." Why you feel a need to indulge in Taqiyya I can only guess. It amazes me that you think you can get away with altering historical facts and (childishly) telling us you have studied the Middle East. Clearly you have lied, as evidenced by all the facts.
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2007-12-05 07:35:39
I Sidat:
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Teddy bear every academic who read your comments will be laughing, the league of nations decleration was made after the UN decleration which was well into the 70s. — TeddyBearWhy can't you people understand the simple truth which is prior to the Balfi=our decleration there was no deal! there was wars, there were genocides but nothing concerning Jews in palestine, as a university student studying middle east matters am shocked to learn the stupidity coming out of many people on these threads The balfour decleration was made after world war two in order to address the situation of the european jewish plight. You are NOT a student of Middle Eastern matters. Anyone with a single day's learning knows that the Balfour Declaration was before the First World War. Wikipedia:- "The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I." Why you feel a need to indulge in Taqiyya I can only guess. It amazes me that you think you can get away with altering historical facts and (childishly) telling us you have studied the Middle East. Clearly you have lied, as evidenced by all the facts. Ha ha ha ha this is the reason why universities won't allow us to use wikipedia, because its edited by idiots, the balfour decleration was after ww2. I have the balfour decleration copy let me ask you a question how long was the decleration one page, two pages how many?
(47)
2007-12-05 07:42:59
RSD:
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I Sidat: Your contention that the Balfour Declaration was issued after WW2 is an interesting one and should surprise Lord Balfour's relatives. Lord Balfour as you will know was the author of the Balfour Declaration, it being issued before his death while he was still an active politician. Lord Balfour died in 1930.
If the Balfour Declaration was issued folwoing WW2, quite when according to you did WW2 occur - I always thought that it was from 1939 to 1945, but due to the poor standard of UK education I could be wrong. Your thoughts please?
(48)
2007-12-05 08:35:41
RSD:
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Azaad: If you cared to look at the last twenty years in the countries you cite there has been a trend for the indigenous people's to reclaim large tracts of their lands and assert their authority over it. This differs from pre-1948 Zionism as prior to then the Jews were buying tracts of land, not seeking redress or claim through the courts etc. There is also another significant difference, and that this that generally the nation states you describe have not attempted to resist these claims by indigenous people through massacre or attempted ethnic cleansing.
The other issue is what relevance is time. Does it really make a difference if a people are excluded for 60 years or 600 years if they continue to make their claim to return. If time is relevant what specific period applies and also what other criteria? There can be little doubt in anyone's mind that Jews have retained their associations with the Levant and those stretches of land that they called their own over many many centuries. There have been repeated attempts to return but until the late 19th C these attempts were not practical. We know that until 1856 Jews in what became Palestine were subject to discriminatory laws,denied the right to own land, predatory taxation and violence. So it is not at all surprising that they were unable to start to return in significant numbers or assert their own national identity in the region. Notwithstanding all the above we generally do not question the so-called Palestinian rights. However if we look at the UNWRA definition of a Palestinian, and thus beneficiary of aid and assistance, it is a person (and their descendents) who claims that between 1946 and 1948 that Palestine was their place of permanent residence and that they claim to have been displaced by the 1948 war. UNRWA does not require the claimant to provide documentary evidence to support the claim.
(49)
2007-12-05 08:59:01
europamedical:
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For those of you who clearly misunderstood my entry - please note that the first sentence, which was a contribution by someone else has multiple question marks after it .
"the Jewish National Home was established in 1922 " ?????? — europamedicalThe British Mandate for Palestine was established in 1922, after the Treaty of Sevres. The purpose was to administer the parts of the former Ottoman Empire after WW1. It included the territory that now comprises most of modern-day Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It operated until the establishment of TransJordan in 1946 and the zionist inspired Israel in 1948.
(50)
2007-12-05 09:32:47
I Sidat:
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Apologies to everyone, as a true muslim i am going to show you what kind of person i am, I did get the dates wrong on the balfour decleration and confused it to the British pull out of the area, but i am still right in saying that at the time there was no european jew in palestine they were gradually transported to palestine as a dumping ground for nazis, and israel was created by zionist right wing movement after the world war in order to create a new home for the displaced european jews.
Once again my apologies, but this should not be taken away to the fact that israel are illegally occupying many parts of palestine, lebabnon and syria.
(51)
2007-12-05 11:37:25
shem:
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I Sidat:
Balfour Declaration dates? Any comment now about the idiots who don't know when it was?
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2007-12-05 11:57:22
TeddyBear:
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"Ha ha ha ha this is the reason why universities won't allow us to use wikipedia, because its edited by idiots, the balfour decleration was after ww2.
I have the balfour decleration copy let me ask you a question how long was the decleration one page, two pages how many?" I Sidat, obviously you have some fake version from an Islamic University. I can now understand how the Islamic World is angry with Israel because their text books have been written by Saudi Arabia and a foreword from Ayatollah Khomeini. Perhaps the kind people at MPAC UK would put you out of your misery by confirming what some of us have been telling you. No need to apologise because, with your extrememly embarrasing faux pas, and relience on "Zionists" to correct you, I'll bet you are feeling quite sick right now.
(53)
2007-12-05 13:59:50
I Sidat:
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I answered the above query earlier today but it seems mpacuk have lost the message or did not put it up.
the basic jist of it was that i did get it wrong and as proper muslims i apologise, i mixed these dates up with the mass jewish immigration, it was in 1917, however it was ONLY for the jewish community there at the time, the european jews came in later and pushed everyone out whn israel was formed. By the way teddy bear am not that kind of person i state facts yes people do make mistakes i corrected this earlier today but my message was not posted. MPACUK i had a very good message i can't remember it it was a pure islamic answer why has this not been put up? its not inflammatory like some of these messages i thought you guys were here to protect muslims from being defamed?
(54)
2007-12-05 15:54:41
TeddyBear:
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"Ha ha ha ha this is the reason why universities won't allow us to use wikipedia, because its edited by idiots, the balfour decleration was after ww2.
I have the balfour decleration copy let me ask you a question how long was the decleration one page, two pages how many? " I believe that your university has told you that the internet is evil and inhabited by the Devil, who regularly contributes to Wikipedia (see, its Wikid!). Of course, the rest of the Internet was written by Zionists who have powerful search engines that constantly change the text and articles to pro-Zionist speeches. After all, Israelis 'own' the internet. As for The Balfour Declaration, that was written in 1997 and some Israeli went back into time and altered World history to pretend it had been there all the time. Do you ever get the feeling you are batting for the wrong team? I don't need to ask what its like to feel powerless and un-educated because your posts reveal those answers.
(55)
2007-12-05 22:35:06
Joe Smith:
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Remember the Torah say "jews are forbidden to have a state until the Messiah comes" Therefore, we the civilised people should refer to it as Occupied Palestine!
Secondly, These MP's are following the Zionist Protocol, otherwise the Zionist control Media will have a field day! Remember The War Criminal Ariel Sharon said "We the Jews control America, and American's know it!" Perhaps he should have added UK as well!
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2007-12-05 23:24:07
I Sidat:
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I answered the above query earlier today but it seems mpacuk have lost the message or did not put it up.
the basic jist of it was that i did get it wrong and as proper muslims i apologise, i mixed these dates up with the mass jewish immigration, it was in 1917, however it was ONLY for the jewish community there at the time, the european jews came in later and pushed everyone out whn israel was formed. By the way teddy bear am not that kind of person i state facts yes people do make mistakes i corrected this earlier today but my message was not posted. MPACUK i had a very good message i can't remember it it was a pure islamic answer why has this not been put up? its not inflammatory like some of these messages i thought you guys were here to protect muslims from being defamed?
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2007-12-05 23:33:45
MPACUK Mod:
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Apologies I Sidat. Why not register to avoid the delay in your posts being seen.
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2007-12-06 00:01:56
TeddyBear:
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Remember the Torah say "jews are forbidden to have a state until the Messiah comes" Therefore, we the civilised people should refer to it as Occupied Palestine! — Joe SmithSecondly, These MP's are following the Zionist Protocol, otherwise the Zionist control Media will have a field day! Remember The War Criminal Ariel Sharon said "We the Jews control America, and American's know it!" Perhaps he should have added UK as well! Remember that Sharon NEVER SAID IT! It is a Hamas Hoax CAMERA:- "The hoax originated with an October 3, 2001 press release from the pro-Hamas group, the Islamic Association for Palestine. It said: An acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres during which Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying “don’t worry about American pressure, we control America.” Notably, in the same press release, the direct quotation “we control America” changed to “we the Jewish people control America.” IAP wrote: According [to] the Israeli Hebrew radio, Col [sic] Yisrael Wednesday, Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and turn the US against us. At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres, saying “...I want to tell you something clear, don’t worry about American pressure on Israel, we the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.” According to the IAP press release, the statement was reported on Kol Yisrael. However, CAMERA’s calls to Kol Yisrael confirmed that no such broadcast occurred. "
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2007-12-06 08:03:56
RSD:
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I Sidat: I am concerned that your grasp of the various phases of socio-economic and demographic change in pre-WW1 Palestine is somewhat flawed.
Migration of Jews in / out of "Palestine" prior to 1917 is roughly as follows. At beginning of 18th C Sephardi/Mizrachi & Ashkenazi communities live in "Palestine". As Dhimmi they do not have rights of person or property. Mid - 18th C Ashkenazi Community in Jerusalem declared bankrupt and expelled on masse as they are unable to pay Jizya tax. (This community was reliant on donations from Europe to pay tax and due to recession and chaos in Europe this declines significantly.) This is followed by wholesale destruction of their community property. 1799 Naploeon invades and invites Jews to join Christians and overthrow Islamic rule. Napoleon needs Jewish farmers in Beisan to make food available if his troops are to capture Jerusalem. Jews decline due to distrust of Christians. 1842 French Consul in Damascus incites violence against Jews using blood libel which results in Beisan Massacres. These cause settled Jewish communities to flee across the Ottoman Empire and elsewhere for safety. Ottoman Empire refuse to allow Haourani Christians and Muslims to benefit from violence and brings in Cicassian settlers. Mid-19th Bukhari Jews begin to settle in Palestine following tradition amongst most Jewish communities of trying to return. Ashkenazi community begins to reestablish itself after debts are cleared by Sephardim. 1856 Ottoman Empire gives equal rights in law to all inhabitants and ends tax farming thus taking major source of income from Ayanes (feudal ruling class). Ottoman Empire attempts to stabilise region by giving land grants to migrant Arab peasants - this is not successful as they fall into debt and lose their land to Ayanes. 1860 census states Jerusalem population 38% Jews, 37% Christian, 25% Muslim Earlier modern Zionism starts to gain pace and land begins to be purchased. Early settlements supported by wealthy Jews like Rothschild. Radical Zionists criticise early settlements and start to purchase land from Ayanes for collectives. Ottoman Empire forbids land sales to Jews - Ayanes get around this by selling through off-shore companies. Impact of Zionism begins to undermine sharecropping economy and begins to replace it with wage economy. Sephardi / Mizrachi community augmented by steady low-level inward migration. 1900 Jerusalem population - 70% Jews.
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2007-12-06 14:18:00
shan:
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RSD does like telling stories,they lived as dhimmis with no rights of person or property,then goes onto say in 1860 jerusalem was 38 per cent jewish.
your own comments condtradict with each other,if they had no rights why did people simply not kill them off. dhimmi is a status given to people who are not muslims,this exempts them from fighting to defend muslim lands from attack,this also exempts them from paying zakat tax. i love the way you try to imply as though this was somehow a fine for not becoming muslims. BTW back to the topic can you imagine the headlines if the people giving the illegal loans were muslims,you never hear the end of it,express newspapers leading with muslims corrupt our MPS,muslims trying to destroy our democratic way of life. why do you reckon they do not use words such as jews trying to corrupt our MPs.
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2007-12-06 16:42:38
TeddyBear:
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RSD does like telling stories,they lived as dhimmis with no rights of person or property,then goes onto say in 1860 jerusalem was 38 per cent jewish. — shanyour own comments condtradict with each other,if they had no rights why did people simply not kill them off. dhimmi is a status given to people who are not muslims,this exempts them from fighting to defend muslim lands from attack,this also exempts them from paying zakat tax. i love the way you try to imply as though this was somehow a fine for not becoming muslims. BTW back to the topic can you imagine the headlines if the people giving the illegal loans were muslims,you never hear the end of it,express newspapers leading with muslims corrupt our MPS,muslims trying to destroy our democratic way of life. why do you reckon they do not use words such as jews trying to corrupt our MPs. Well shan, you avoided telling the readers that as Dhimmi's they would have needed to wear a yellow cloth to identify them as second-class citizens. They would have to pay Jizya tax. They wouldn't have the same rights in court and could not bear witness against a Muslim. It was a form os Social Apartheid similar to how South Africa treated their Black population. Yes, it was Apartheid. Now, why aren't there stories of an Antisemitioc nature that you seem to favour and gravitate towards with such glee? Because there is no story of Jew trying to corrupt politicians. If you have any example please publish your libels here. I think your problem is this. Jews as a tiny minority have achieved social status, acceptability and great commercial, academic and professional success that you can only dream of. Dream on! Beat yourself up over your inadequacy if you wish. What you need to do is find an easier pool.
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2007-12-07 07:46:30
shem:
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shan - listen to yourself. you say that if the donors were muslims we'd never hear the end of it. They were Jews and we never hear the end of it from filthy racists like you.
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2007-12-07 09:12:12
shan:
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what is the matter shem did does reality hurt.
i have seen zionsits spew pure hatred of islam and muslims on this blog yet i have never used words such as filthy or any other personal attacks. i have have not mentioned that this was done by jews,yet you have gone into a fit,so i suppose muslims have more right to respond in the tone you are using,but i wil not lower myself to that level.
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2007-12-07 10:24:21
Barbarossa:
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RSD does like telling stories,they lived as dhimmis with no rights of person or property,then goes onto say in 1860 jerusalem was 38 per cent jewish. — TeddyBearyour own comments condtradict with each other,if they had no rights why did people simply not kill them off. dhimmi is a status given to people who are not muslims,this exempts them from fighting to defend muslim lands from attack,this also exempts them from paying zakat tax. i love the way you try to imply as though this was somehow a fine for not becoming muslims. BTW back to the topic can you imagine the headlines if the people giving the illegal loans were muslims,you never hear the end of it,express newspapers leading with muslims corrupt our MPS,muslims trying to destroy our democratic way of life. why do you reckon they do not use words such as jews trying to corrupt our MPs. Well shan, you avoided telling the readers that as Dhimmi's they would have needed to wear a yellow cloth to identify them as second-class citizens. They would have to pay Jizya tax. They wouldn't have the same rights in court and could not bear witness against a Muslim. It was a form os Social Apartheid similar to how South Africa treated their Black population. Yes, it was Apartheid. Now, why aren't there stories of an Antisemitioc nature that you seem to favour and gravitate towards with such glee? Because there is no story of Jew trying to corrupt politicians. If you have any example please publish your libels here. I think your problem is this. Jews as a tiny minority have achieved social status, acceptability and great commercial, academic and professional success that you can only dream of. Dream on! Beat yourself up over your inadequacy if you wish. What you need to do is find an easier pool. Yellow cloth??? - how strange like the yellow number plates you make the Palestinians drive which is different for a Jew- just so you can spot them??
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2007-12-07 11:41:34
shan:
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look who is talkign about inadequacy hiding behind the name teddy bear.
jews did not have to wear yellow and if they were wronged they could take the person to court.they paid jizya tax and the muslims paid zakat tax. The topic is illegal loans and what is lfi trying to get out of the government for what it pays in. your fellow zionist melaniep said kayami a french muslim has paid into labour so what islamist agenda is he promoting,when it came out he was jewish,she left in a hurry. so using melanieps logic what agenda are these lfis promoting,is it perhaps continued support for a terrorist nation.
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2007-12-07 12:32:53
TeddyBear:
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Yellow cloth??? - how strange like the yellow number plates you make the Palestinians drive which is different for a Jew- just so you can spot them??
Its just like the French and Germans having different coloured number plates BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFERENT COUBTRIES JUST LIKE ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS. Your comment is utterly stupid! No-one MAKES Palestinians have yellow car number plates (if indeed its even true). They are a different country, different numbers plates.
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2007-12-07 22:47:27
TeddyBear:
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look who is talkign about inadequacy hiding behind the name teddy bear. — shanjews did not have to wear yellow and if they were wronged they could take the person to court.they paid jizya tax and the muslims paid zakat tax. The topic is illegal loans and what is lfi trying to get out of the government for what it pays in. your fellow zionist melaniep said kayami a french muslim has paid into labour so what islamist agenda is he promoting,when it came out he was jewish,she left in a hurry. so using melanieps logic what agenda are these lfis promoting,is it perhaps continued support for a terrorist nation. Your description of Dhimmitude is wrong. My description of Dhimmitude is 100% correct. You think you are right because you find the description incredulous. THis has COMPLETELY escaped your attention. LFI is stuffed full of Labour MP's. So what are they trying to get out of themselves. I don't see why Abrahams is being castigated for being rich, successfull and Jewish. Now if Muslims tried harder at integrating then they might be able to achieve something close to Abrahams. But I'm not quakimg in my boots waiting for it to happen.
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2007-12-07 22:55:56
TeddyBear:
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BRILLIANT!!!!
Muslim Friends of Labour, a lobby group, hid a donation of more than £300,000 which actually donated by Imran Khand. We seriously need to look closely at what attempts there were to gain concessions and support of The Palestinians. Its So secretive it run out of a Post Box. Oh Dear, Oh Dear, Oh Dear!!!! (I can hardly contain my laughter) Sunday Times, 9th December page 4.
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2007-12-09 15:55:52
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Pardon me for asking. Perhaps I shouldn't. For an easy life, some things, you learn, are best left unsaid. Nervous, am I? You bet. But these questions will not stand aside or lie down. They have been bothering me since the Labour party donor row broke last week. They are raised here in good faith. I have no wish to bring the wrath of Moses upon me and I can already hear the accusations of anti-Semitism because I dare to raise the question: Can someone explain what exactly is the role of the Labour Friends of Israel (LFI) in our political life? And its twin, the Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI) too. In an open democracy, we are entitled to make such queries – indeed, it is a duty.
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