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| Fascism Alive And Well In Israel |
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| Friday, 02 November 2007 | |
"WARNING!" screamed the flyer being thrust into my hand by a concerned-looking young religious man as I entered the hall. "American Jews are in danger!" it continued. "Countless Neo-Nazi groups are spreading their venemous [sic] message ... at public demonstrations calling for violence against Jews ... and praising Hitler as a 'true hero'!"Fair enough, I thought - that's a pretty sobering prospect, and something worth taking heed of as a Jew who cares about his brethren, and who hates to think of them in danger. That the same boy was then in the midst of a 500-strong crowd yelling "Arabs out! Arabs out!" less than an hour later, and screaming deliriously at footage of the late Meir Kahane, was as ironic as it was despicable. "Who is wise ... those who see the future," was written halfway down the same flyer, quoting Pirkei Avot in an attempt to exhort the endangered American Jews to make aliyah to Israel and escape the Nazis' evil clutches. The wise man also sees the present though, I think - and knows when to call a spade a spade. Which is why I have no qualms whatsoever about describing the baying mob at the Kahane memorial earlier this week as the closest thing we Jews have to home-grown fascists. For those unfamiliar with the odious, late Rabbi Kahane, he was the leader of the now-outlawed Kach party in Israel, and his politics included advocating the forcible expulsion of all Arab citizens of Israel. A former member of Knesset - until his party was banned in 1988 - he was gunned down after giving a speech in the United States in 1990. His followers have been responsible for numerous terror attacks against Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, most notably Baruch Goldstein's bloody massacre at a Hebron mosque in 1994. At the memorial service, the mere mention of Goldstein's name received thunderous applause from the audience - all of whom were ultra-orthodox, and all of whom had not the slightest remorse at singing the praises of Israel's most notorious mass-murderer. Dozens of men wore T-shirts emblazoned with the slogan "Now everyone knows ... Kahane was right", a message every bit as repulsive as a group of German neo-Nazis wearing similar attire with Hitler's name replacing that of Kahane's. Because, make no mistake, the politics of Kach and those of the National Socialists are chillingly similar in their vicious racism and call to arms. Footage of Kahane's more incendiary speeches were shown throughout the ceremony, as he ranted and raved to his enraptured acolytes, fists clenched and raised in triumph whilst he spat his venomous message of hate. "There is no such thing as an Arab village in Israel," he thundered from beyond the grave, "only a Jewish village that is temporarily inhabited by Arabs." The crowd went wild, stamping their feet and giving piercing whistles, regardless of the fact that most of them had seen the footage countless times before. An impromptu chant of "Kahane still lives" was started by a boy in the row behind me, and soon the entire hall was singing as one, from the youngest schoolchildren to the most gnarled and wizened old men in the room. The women, on the other side of the curtain mechiza (divider), were no casual bystanders to the furore. The delirium was just as fervent amongst them in response to the various speakers at the dais whipping the audience into a frenzy. One rabbi, well-known in Kach circles, took to the stage with a huge orange Star of David pinned over his heart, to the delight of those looking on. (In a sick send-up of the Yellow Star that the Nazis forced Jews to wear during the Holocaust, the far-right, anti-disengagement settlers have adopted the emblem for themselves, in protest at the detested IDF and Israeli government's evacuation of Gush Katif). The service went on for nearly two hours, and showed no sign of abating when I'd had my fill and headed for the exit. Interspersed with the speeches were video montages put together by Kach propagandists designed to reinforce the feeling that their underground movement was the victim of obscene oppression on the part of the authorities. Like something out of A Clockwork Orange, film of riot police beating settlers and religious youths was juxtaposed onto a soundtrack of plaintive Jewish song, as children looked on in horror and their fathers shook their heads mournfully. "But we're not beaten," cried the next speaker up. "We've got to mobilise better - every one of you here must spread the word of Kahane, and only in this way will we bring about the true Jewish State that he dreamed of." That same state, according to Kahane when he was in parliament, would have included a ban on all sexual activity between Jews and non-Jews, and seen only Jews eligible as citizens of Israel. His assassination, and the subsequent murder of his son and daughter-in-law at the hands of Palestinian terrorists, only strengthened the resolve of his die-hard followers, who formed the Kahane Chai offshoot which is currently listed as a terrorist organisation by the FBI. It is similarly viewed in Israel too, although the blurred boundaries between Kahane Chai and the original party mean that the police are powerless to ban events such as tonight's memorial. For my part, I'm glad they didn't, since the opportunity to witness the fascist hordes for myself was massively instructive as to how low certain elements of Israeli society have sunk. By hailing Baruch Goldstein as a latter-day saint, they're every bit as repulsive as the Hamas supporters who revere Sheikh Yassin, or the far-right Europeans who mourn Hitler's passing every year on his birthday. As much as I sang the praises of the OneVoice volunteers in my last piece, so do I just as passionately hate each and every one of those sitting alongside me at tonight's event. These are our extremists, these are our terrorists - and this is our dirty secret that is a stain on the state that was founded as a refuge from similarly-minded fascists. If the likes of the Kachniks get their way, then the wheel will truly have come full circle, when the hunted becomes the hunter and history repeats itself once more. Source: Comment is Free Readers have left 53 comments.
shem:
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Gosh - they sound nearly as bad as the Islamists. It's a good job there aren't many of them.
(1)
2007-11-27 10:30:41
MASHFIQ:
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In a personal capacity, I have immense respect and admiration for the Jewish people. Throughout human history, every religious group has experienced notable discrimination and mass genocide, simply as a result of their background. However, no one group has suffered so much as that of the Jewish religion. If you seek to read historically books about Jewish history, which reveals quite explicitly that they have been exiled from almost every country that they have ever inhabited, beginning with Israel, today regarded as the Holy Land of Jews, and leading all the way to Germany, France, Spain, England, and Russia. In many different nations, Jewish people have been singled out and persecuted and accused of being part of a global conspiracy theory. Of course, however, these claims were false. Even the falsely misleading Protocols of Elders of Zion is frequently used to denounce Jews as being part of a global conspiracy. This again is false. Despite the suffering and torture experienced by the Jewish people, their resilience, patients and determination has seen Jewish people influence huge sway of society's opinions and they are very highly educated. Good on all of them. They deserve to reap the merits of their hardwork and achievements. Furthermore, it must be added, the war waged by Adolf Hitler, the formerly Nazi leader, against the very many minorities, including Jews, Polish people, gay people and others. However, his central aim was purely again the Jews by his attempts to convince the entire world by trying to change the opinions of people that Judaism was bad. Although, physically he harmed innocent Jews, he failed in the intellectual war. Jewish people have returned from torture, punishment, and murder to earn the world's respect and admiration. Thus, simply due to the history of the religion, the Jewish people have become a very resilient people. They have survived thousands of years carrying their religion with them from one country to the next and never loosing their faith. In regards to the above article, I think Jewish people are eager to defend their heritage, land and protect their people. They are vigilante people and seek to ensure the protection of their people. Quite rightly, they do not trust others to do it for them. Especially, when we seek to look at its history, people have given Jewish people a haven and then subsequently persecuted them. We talk about fascism in Israel emanating from Israeli Jews. But we must remember that Palestine's own Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Hussaini worked with Hitler and the Nazis in order to wipe out the Jewish people.
Although I fully support the peace process in the Middle East, and have been supportive of a just peace settlement, we have to explore all forms of fascism emanating from Palestine and Israel. You single out Israel, but you never speak about Palestinians. That is complete bias from your organisation. I will now speculate that much of what I say will single me out as being a Zionist and pro-Israeli when many of your bloggers do not even know me. They level claims without supportive evidence. I am a British Muslim and hold a balanced and fair approach. I look at the picture clearly.
(2)
2007-11-27 12:39:55
truth:
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Its so painful to see a people who were treated the way they were treated by the nazi's treating the palestinians the same way.
they need to be prosecuted and punished as the nazi's were and i am sure that this will take place not too far in the future. How can they call them selves jews.
(3)
2007-11-27 13:15:29
shem:
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Truth (only in name):
1. the Jews do not treat Palestinians the way they were treated - this is a gross lie (despite the injustices that go on) 2. The nazis (and German population) were never punished 3. Jews are Jews unless they convert or lapse completely. 4. Read Mashfiq's post - it is a noble and refreshing change from Muslim posters here. (will the mods leave it).
(4)
2007-11-27 13:37:22
shem:
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truth:
I recommend you read Elie Wiesel's 'Night' and Primo Levi's 'If this is a man'. Then tell me they are treated the same way. Those are just two witness accounts of life in occupied Europe and the Death Camps.
(5)
2007-11-27 13:42:47
shan:
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the blog is about facist/nazi jews in israel and look what zionist jews try to do to the blog,instead of recognising that jews have worked with nazis-communists and facists,mashfiq a zionist tries to slander the grand mufti of jerusalem saying he wanted to wipe out the jewish people.
first of all deal with your own facist and nazis who worked with hitler and then slander others. so lets deal with facist/nazis jews in israel who go around beating other jews up.
(6)
2007-11-27 15:27:29
shem:
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shan:
google "grand mufti of jerusalem and nazis" ans see what you come up with (unless you think the internet is also a jewish - sorry zionist - conspiracy). That Jews worked with the Nazis is a lunacy - please! You do your 'peopele' such a disservice. It's views like yours that make many people think there are no 'moderate' muslims. Shame on you.
(7)
2007-11-27 16:09:55
shan:
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shem read what was said,to say the grand mufti of jerusalem sided with nazis to wipe out jews is a slander.
i have read about the grand mufti,he used the old saying my enemies enemy is my friend,he needed to free palestine from british occupation,since the british were at war with germany he requested help from germany to defeat the british. it should be shame on people such as yourself who lie and deceive at every turn,instead of delaign with blogs contents about facist/nazi jews in israeli society today.
(8)
2007-11-27 16:35:13
shem:
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the nazis aim was to wipe out the jews - an aim which was met with great sympathy or indifference by the Muslim world. Deal with it. apply a bit of self-criticism.
(9)
2007-11-27 17:18:12
Delila:
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the blog is about facist/nazi jews in israel and look what zionist jews try to do to the blog,instead of recognising that jews have worked with nazis-communists and facists,mashfiq a zionist tries to slander the grand mufti of jerusalem saying he wanted to wipe out the jewish people. — shanfirst of all deal with your own facist and nazis who worked with hitler and then slander others. so lets deal with facist/nazis jews in israel who go around beating other jews up. It is 100% true that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Al Husseini, went to see Hitler many times to ask him if he could help exterminate the Jews because he and Hitler wanted the same thing. Al Husseini formed the Bosnian Muslim Handsar Division and was responsible for sending Jews to death camps. After the war Al Husseini was wanted by the War Crimes tribunal and fled to Egypt. Its historical fact and can't be minimised or glossed over. Its fact. Google for it. Its everywhere. Even the BNP website links to it. Apologies - I was retired but some things cannot be left unchallenged.
(10)
2007-11-27 17:33:32
Mashfiq:
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Shan:
Please reveal vigorous academic evidence suggesting Jews were complicit in the Holocaust, rather than counting on fabricated and discredited Islamist or fascist websites. There is not an ounce of strong evidence which will reveal that Jews were responsible for assisting Adolf Hitler and his Nazi clan. It is fabricated and false. Nor is it historically documented. I would be interested in knowing which book you referring to in reference to your source. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini, was indeed supportive of and encouraged Hitler in his campaign to exterminate the Jewish community. According to documented scholarly evidence which currently exist, the Grand Mufti encouraged the massacre of Jews, especially through German radio broadcast. He even offered Hitler an opportunity to take a group of Palestinians to help fight in the cause. He did not distinguish, as we would expect, between Zionist and Jews. His aim was simply to eliminate Jews. This is what made his life so controversial and at the centre of many of the academic and social debates till this very day. The Israelis have a right to defend themselves, to prevent another Holocaust and prevent any country aiming to eliminate them. Whether it is Iran, Palestinian Authority led Hamas or any of the neighbouring Arab states. This is an isolated state, with much support from the United States and United Kingdom. That is, for instance, the rationale behind why I feel there is a need for a two-state solution now rather than later. I do not want the current situation to escalate. We need to bring peace and bring it now. This crisis will probably continue unless there is a final settlement over Jerusalem and over the entire region. The Palestinians and Israelis need to constructively work together, in order to resolve this battle. The Palestinians are enduring a great deal and nobody is undermining that fact, however, broadcasting anti-Semitic propaganda and inciting neighbouring states to be hostile towards Israel will only make Israel more wary. I don’t blame them. In order to reach peace, I would encourage diplomatic relations between Bangladesh and Israel, Bangladesh partly due to its secularism ideals and secondly as a Muslim country with a secularist and democratic outlook, can contribute to the present peace process. If Jordon, Turkey and Palestinians under Mahmoud Abbas are allowed to recognise Israel, why can’t Bangladesh also take advantage of this opportunity? Bangladesh could act as a peace mediator between the two states, as we share good relations with India (an ally of Israel) and the Palestinian people. And we have good relations with the US and the United Kingdom. Additionally, we are on good terms with many of the world’s nations. Furthermore, as many of MPAC’s bloggers and similarly most of the world, I agree that we need to do all we can in our efforts to provide aid and as much productive support to the Palestinians to build a democratic and stable government. We need to ensure that all countries, including the Israelis can do real business with their neighbours. I mean real economic, political and social business, of which quite frankly in my opinion, will serve to benefit both countries. Thanks Mashfiq
(11)
2007-11-27 18:06:03
shan:
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So the zionists are going to deal with facists and nazis in israel today by trying to put blame on what happened 60 years ago.
the bosnian handsar division was not set up by the mufti but by the germans to exploit the rivalry between serbs and bosnians,the bosnians did not round up jews to be to be sent to death camps but fought against serbs who were backed by the soviets called partisans or chetniks if i remember right. trying to create facts out of fiction is all well and good for those who know no better. as for the muslim world being indiffrent what muslim world,the majority of muslim nations were under foreign occupation,there are around 60 muslim nations today yet muslims are being butchered in every corner of the world. so to all zionists how do we deal with facist/nazi jews.
(12)
2007-11-27 18:25:43
Delila:
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. — shanso to all zionists how do we deal with facist/nazi jews. We should all try and learn from each other. How did we deal with the fascist/nazi/Mulsims who were exposed as preachers of hate and anti-semitism in mosques by Ch4?
(13)
2007-11-28 07:46:20
shan:
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i say again how do we deal with facist/nazi jews and this will be the case, until for once zionists answer about their own criminals.
they cannot stop lecturing and patrionising muslims about criminals in jewish society,but why the inability to answer the above question.
(14)
2007-11-28 10:15:25
shem:
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shan:
I'll answer the question for you: There are no fascist or nazi Jews. Fascism and Nazism are specific political ideologies unrelated to the political system in Israel. There may be racist Jews. But that's another story. So desist from your desire to bury the shame of Islamist intentions by slinging mud at others.
(15)
2007-11-28 12:38:06
shan:
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Shem get out of your denial mode,there are and have been facist/nazi jews in history and today.
there are facists jews using symbols of nazis in israel. brushing it under the carpet is not going to make the problem go away. why do you not condemn jewish facists/nazis like muslim condemn extremists. I still ask the question,what can we do to deal with these facist/nazi jews.
(16)
2007-11-28 13:00:51
Delila:
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i say again how do we deal with facist/nazi jews and this will be the case, until for once zionists answer about their own criminals. — shanthey cannot stop lecturing and patrionising muslims about criminals in jewish society,but why the inability to answer the above question. I repeat. "What did we do about fascist/nazi/Muslims who preach Antisemitic hate in mosques, such as seen in Ch4 program". Perhaps knowing what we did will help us decide.
(17)
2007-11-28 13:12:23
shan:
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It seems zionists are quick to ask questions but find it hard to answer questions pertaining to them or fellow jews.
until this question is answered no one should respond to any zionists question or comment. BTW ch4 mosque was fully debated months ago,go back and check what was said,but first deal with here and now.
(18)
2007-11-28 14:13:23
Delila:
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It seems zionists are quick to ask questions but find it hard to answer questions pertaining to them or fellow jews. — shanuntil this question is answered no one should respond to any zionists question or comment. BTW ch4 mosque was fully debated months ago,go back and check what was said,but first deal with here and now. Response required. You clearly have made the equation Zionist=Jew in your vocabulary. It simply makes you an Antisemite for effectively requestingf "Don't have anything to do with Jews until I get my answer" May I suggest you are a ten year old Antisemitite.
(20)
2007-11-28 17:25:33
shan:
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The question delila is "WHAT CAN WE DO TO DEAL WITH FACIST/NAZI JEWS".
(21)
2007-11-28 17:36:33
Delila:
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The question delila is "WHAT CAN WE DO TO DEAL WITH FACIST/NAZI JEWS". — shanAnd the answer was "WHAT DID WE DO ABOUT FASCIST/NAZI/MUSLIMS LIKE THOSE PREACHING IN THE MOSQUES AS EXPOSED BY CH4" By using the answer as a model we can then examine what to do about these ISRAELIS!! What I know Israel does about them is to treat them with disgust and disdain. Some have been tried for racism and some for suspected terrorist planning.
(22)
2007-11-28 19:08:10
Mashfiq:
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A couple of weeks ago, Ofcom publicly rejected police complaints about an edition of Channel 4's Dispatches that exposed extremist messages emanating from certain mosque. One of those were pinpointed notably Green Lanes Mosque, actually received second place at this year 2007 Model Mosque competition. A mosque where the Imam delivers hate speech freely receives a second place commendation from this competition, arguably seen as the second best mosque in the United Kingdom.
As various bloggers already know, several months ago, West Midlands police and the Crown Prosecution Service published a statement claiming that the episode, Undercover Mosque, was deliberately and harmfully misrepresented the varied opinions of Muslim preachers and clerics with misleading editing. However, in a ruling published some weeks ago Ofcom found that the programme was "a legitimate investigation" and said there was "no evidence that the broadcaster had misled the audience or that the programme was likely to encourage or incite criminal activity. Will all those preachers like to offer us an apology and will the Muslim Council of Britain condemn those preachers who made comments about homosexuals, women and non-Muslims. Surely, if Ofcom have oviously cleared the BBC, then the MCB should offer its account as to why it refuses to distance itself away from these clerics and their places of worship. They should work constructively with moderate mosque, who do not spread hate or venom, but peaceful messages about good relations between faith communities. If Ofcom is wrong, why has the MCB suddenly gone silent with its affiliates, why have they not challenged Ofcom publicly, if as some may claim, Ofcom are fabricating it all. Surely if OfCom's ruling is misleading, it should be challenged. Why has it not and why has MPAC UK not challenged it? Look forward to your reply.
(23)
2007-11-28 21:04:20
Delila:
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Mashfiq, MCB won't challenge OfCom because they don't have any basis for it.
I laughed at their pathetic attempts to rubbish John Ware's expose of MCB. Their letter and the reply from a senior editor of the BBC is a classic. Every one of their points comprehensively destroyed.
(24)
2007-11-28 21:46:28
Mashfiq:
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All I have requested is that the MCB publicly condemn the Saudi ruling over the rape victim, especially one of their prominent affiliate organisation's Islamic Cultural Society, Regents Park Mosque, whose President Dr Al Dubayan, a Saudi diplomat, fail to do so. I want to hear it from them directly. Unless, of course, the Regents Park Mosque condone the lashing and imprisonment of a rape victim, what kind of Islam are they following? Is it Islamism or Wahhabism?
Thanks Mashfiq
(25)
2007-11-28 22:33:27
shan:
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mashfiq why would or should mcb condemn saudi judiciary or law.
mcb is a british organisation to do with the rights of muslim in britain.
(26)
2007-11-29 10:30:05
Mashfiq:
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Then tell them to shut up about Palestinians, Iraqis and foreign Muslims then..... If they speak up for Palestinians, why can't they speak up for Muslim rape victims in Muslim countries.
(27)
2007-11-29 14:08:00
MelanieP:
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mashfiq why would or should mcb condemn saudi judiciary or law. — shanmcb is a british organisation to do with the rights of muslim in britain. Precisely and there is no reason to get involved in the politics of Israel or the War on Terror outside of the UK. Let's have MPAC UK concentrate on UK issues only.
(28)
2007-11-29 14:30:23
Mashfiq:
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MelanieP - the Journalist I assume- actually maybe you quoted me incorrectly Melanie. British Muslim organisations are within their democratic rights to campaign on Palestinian or any issue they feel is important, however, they should also condemn these disgusting acts by Saudi Arabia and Sudan.
As a British Muslim and citizen of this country, I campaign on many foreign issues, whether it is the persecution of minorities in Bangladesh, or the oppression of Muslims, or what is happening to the people of Tibet. Having said all that, British Muslim organisations must invest more resources on British issues and a small amount of their resources. That does not mean none of their resources should go abroad. They should provide adequate representation for all British Muslims, specifically on 'bread and butter' issues affecting British Muslims. But, we should never neglect the role of standing up to any form of injustice or opression in any part of the world. Just as many Jews in Britain feel what is happening to many Israelis is something they have to speak out on, many Muslims feel equally the same about their co-religionist in Palestine. Or take another example, many British Tibetans feel strongly about the injustice in Tibet and China's occupation, and from British shores, they campaign and speak out publicly. It is a democratic state, we should all have the democratic right to say what we want, but within the laws in place. We should never incite, promote or even abuse people, simply as a result of their ethnic, religious of political affilation. We should participate in healthy and robust academic and political debating. Thanks Mashfiq
(29)
2007-11-29 15:16:33
shan:
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mashfiq says tell them to stop talking about palestine and iraq.
did not cross your mind that tens of thousands of iraqi and palestinians muslims live in britain,these people have family links and connection with palestine and iraq. what effects palestine and iraq effects them and it is mcbs job to voice the concerns of the communities it represents.
(30)
2007-11-29 16:26:59
Mashfiq:
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Hiyya Shan,
Thank you for your message. British Muslim community and the mainstream Muslim organisations, namely the Muslim Council of Britain, MPAC UK, Muslim Association of Britain, ISB, Islamic Forum Europe, Islamic Muslim UK, East London Mosque, Regents Park Mosque and others must publicly seek to address the issues of unemployment and, I understand, overcrowding in Muslim homes, perhaps by researching the reasons for them. As we know many British Muslim families live in overcrowded environments, for instance, in places such as Tower Hamlets, it is an epidemic problem. Furthermore, there are concerns primarily relating to citizenship, strengthening the role British Muslims place in civil society and thus ensuring that British Muslims, especially those who communicate in little English, are able to have an adequate command of the English language for integration, to obtain employment, these need to be addressed. There are various other social issues regarding British Muslims that require careful study and work undertaken by British Muslims and their organisations. Even steps should be taken to strengthen the role of mosque to be a part and parcel of British Muslim society, rather than allowing these mosque to develop into places that cause community tensions. This issue matters a great deal. The British Muslim Council of Britain and others have declined to address it. British Muslim organisations and their affiliates, have done little to enhance and champion equal treatment for disabled British Muslims, notably those with a wide range of disabilities. These organisations have done little to promote equality and human rights of British Muslims alone. These organisations must work towards a joint vision of a fairer, more cohesive and prosperous Britain based on mutual respect and understanding. There are issues with strengthening citizenship. Educating British Muslims to use the political process as a positively tool to challenge tabloid media bias, lobbying the MP, MEP and local councillors. These organisations need to address the bread and butter issues of British Muslims. Furthermore, Iqbal Sacranie is not related to Sheikh Yasin, the ideological leader of Hamas, but still went to his funeral. This is a political issue and nothing to do with family links. These Muslim organisations should deal with bread and butter issues, however, they are welcome to alter their "umbrella body" to become a "campaigning group" with a specific agenda to campaign on Palestine or Iraq, but not in the name of all British Muslims. For their affiliates and friends only.
(31)
2007-11-29 23:22:29
shan:
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I agree with your sentiments as i beleive muslism need to get organsied to fight for their rights.
if you are a muslim as you say then you should know that to read the janaza of a dead person is a obligation on muslims. as to whether iqbal sacranie went to gaza or not i have no knowledge so i will not comment on something i have no knowledge of.
(32)
2007-11-30 10:35:22
Mashfiq:
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Shan,
I'll continue, there are transport issues, environmental issues and so many different domestic issues, affecting ordinary British born Muslims, which is not sensibly being addressed by any Muslim group. The Board of Deputies of British Jews, for instance, has undertaken steps to encourage British Jews to take care of their environment- http://www.biggreenjewish.org/index.php An interest in enhancing and promoting positively images of environmental work to British Jews. Only if our Muslim organisations did the same. Despite the MCB mentioning some of the above issues in this pamphlet at the last general election, I do not accept that analysis that they have done much to actively provide solutions or bring about changes, as much of these areas are never spoken about. Mainly the international affairs in the media, and foreign politics abroad. The MCB should deal with British Muslims issues, only British Muslims issues. They are not meant to be representatives of Iraq's Muslims or Palestine's Muslims or any other foreign Muslim, this is why they have the tag Muslim Council of Britain. Not the Muslim Council of Palestine. If they want to deal with Palestine, "not in my name they won't", unless of course, they become a campaign organisation and choose to freely campaign on this matter, but by removing the title British Muslims, as not all British Muslims support such campaigns. What I have found in many British Muslim families of Asian origin, particularly in London, there are a lack of positive role models for these young people. Our young people do not have that aspiration for the future for themselves, and thus many of them give up on society. We need to replace this generational unemployment by generational aspiration. Thanks Mashfiq
(33)
2007-11-30 10:54:55
Mashfiq:
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I agree with your sentiments as i beleive muslism need to get organsied to fight for their rights. — shanif you are a muslim as you say then you should know that to read the janaza of a dead person is a obligation on muslims. as to whether iqbal sacranie went to gaza or not i have no knowledge so i will not comment on something i have no knowledge of. You are correct. The Islamic ritual for burial, there is a burial prayer [salat-l-janazah]. I fully accept your analysis. However, you went from family links, the argument I initially tackled to making an excuse for Iqbal Sacranie's attendance at this funeral. Although he is welcome to attend whoevers funeral he chooses to attend. My primary concern is why you would firstly suggest that someone who endorses and planned to kill innocent civilians in Irael, should receive any kind of commemoration? Islam, our religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur'anic verse which reads: "Who so ever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind," (Al-Ma'dah:32). Furthermore, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said, 'A believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person illegally', which is narrated in the Hadith. Now explain to me this, if you are the ideological leader of Hamas, which has a military wing committed suicide bombings in Israel, and their leader justifies these acts, does he still remain in the scope or fold of Islam? And how? Why when it is outside of Palestine, it is haram, but in Palestine is not haram anymore. It is crazy. Maybe Iqbal Sacranie would choose to attend the funeral of Osama Bin Laden when he dies and pray for him too. The ideological mastermind of Al Qaeda. Personally Shan, I have been to many [salat-l-janazah] and even do this salat-l-Janazah when I hear of family friends or friends who have passed away. Who are not necessarily Muslim, but were good natured people. I believe this can be performed for any human soul, as a British Muslim. It is important that we cherish and show compassion for all human life. If the Islamic faith holds all human life in high esteem, why would we choose as to whose life is and whose life is not. Is clearly demonstrated on 7/7 that those fanatics did not believe that non-Muslim life was valuable and thus killed so many innocent humans. We need to appreciate all human life, regardless of our political, social, ethnic or religious affiliation. We are all unique. Yes, I agree, there should always be pressure applied to politicians to stop regimes and criminals throughout the world, including Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe, to stop killing innocent people. Once we begin to value human life, this world would be a better place for everyone. Thanks Mashfiq
(34)
2007-11-30 11:24:59
shan:
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well masfiq saddly your mask keeps dropping even though you try and keep it up sometimes.
british groups representing muslims have a duty to raise all their concerns be they about iraq-palestine-afghan-chechnya or kashmir.
(35)
2007-11-30 11:47:24
Mashfiq:
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well masfiq saddly your mask keeps dropping even though you try and keep it up sometimes. — shanbritish groups representing muslims have a duty to raise all their concerns be they about iraq-palestine-afghan-chechnya or kashmir. Shan, again, you are simply wrong. These issues, Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan do not concern the majority of British Muslims. It may, of course, concern certain groups or organisations, as we know MPAC UK is one of those groups. My argument is primarily, and it has always been the case put forward, that British Muslim organisations concern themselves with, and it must be put forward again, British Muslim related matters. Not Iraqi, Palestinian or any other political matter of foreign interest. We should leave these issues to be dealt with by Palestinian parties, not by British Muslim organisations. So I beg you try to get your facts precise, before you proceed to level accusations. If Muslim organisations, whether they be umbrella, voluntary or charitable seek to campaign on foreign issues, they should legitimately serve as a campaign organisation, purely to champion their own campaigning agenda. However, this should not be extended to British Muslims, as not all British Muslims agree with these agendas. My opposition is to these organisations utilising the terms "British Muslims" every statement they release, rather than using, for instance, taking the example of MCB, "MCB and its affiliates" oppose a certain legislation. It is fine if they make it clear, they do not speak for all British Muslims, only their affiliates. Make it clear in their statements and on their website. Not all British Muslims subscribe to their agendas, and thus this should be made categorically clear. I believe, and will continue to believe, that we must demonstrate from the Muslim community, a sense of leadership of British domestic affairs, not simply wasting resources on foreign affairs. In regards to all mosque, MPAC UK and I agree that we require a different approach to British mosque and their governance. It has always been my opinion that, despite the many problems in British mosques, as British Muslims we must apply pressure on British mosques to be better in tune with British Muslim young people, strong democratic leadership, initiatives to benefit young Muslims of all persuasions, and those affiliated to no or any political party. And young people that just want to ask questions about Islam and may need some moral support. The mosque need to empower the women, not tell them that their place is in the home. No wonder the Government are worried that certain mosque want to keep women out, simply for being women. This is sexual discrimination. And, I agree with Ruth Kelly too, that we require, as she asserted, "deradicalisation programmes and diversionary activities; programmes that build bridges between communities, learning and sharing from others; active civic and democratic engagement; and voices within Muslim communities taking on the extremist messages, undermining their twisted interpretations of Islam." Communities Secretary Ruth Kelly today called for a "fundamental rebalancing" of the Government's relations with Muslim organisations, in order to support voices of moderation in the struggle to defeat extremism and terror. Exactly, and supporting British Muslim organisations willingly to address issues impacting upon ordinary British Muslims. Thanks
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2007-11-30 13:21:54
shan:
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mashfiq so did you go and speak to the majority of muslim to know that these issues have no concerns for them.
so when are we going to have programme to deradicalise secular extremists who think they know best. i think its about time zionists like yourself realised that patrionising people is not going to get you anywhere. the more you slander nad attack muslims,the stronger they will hold onto islam. BTW i am stil waiting to see how we deal with facist/nazi jews as no one seems to answer this,but zionists carry on telling muslims how they should live their lives.
(37)
2007-11-30 13:59:01
Mashfiq:
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No I have not spoken too all British Muslims. Nor has MCB, MAB, City Circle, ISB, Islamic Foundation, East London Mosque, Regents Park Mosque, or any Muslim organisation. And from the many Muslims that have been spoken too, don't even know who Abdul Bari, Inayat Bunglawala or any of these people are.
So if I am a Zionist, then every single Muslim organisation is too, some of them which you support, so you probably saying all the active British Muslims are all Zionist LOL!
(38)
2007-11-30 15:18:07
shem:
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shan:
I have answered your question but you ignored it because it doen't fit with what you believe: THERE ARE/WERE NO NAZI JEWS. OK? GOT THAT? THERE ARE NO FASCIST JEWISH ORGANISATIONS. OK? GOT THAT?
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2007-11-30 15:18:19
shem:
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I meant to add:
there may very well be racist Jews as there racists amongst all races unfortunately (you know the types - the ones look down on 'the other' because they are not the same religion, for example). BUT FASCISM AND NAZISM ARE TWO POLITICAL IDEOLOGIES NEITHER OF WHICH IS FOLLOWED IN ISRAEL. PLEASE LOOK THE WORDS UP IN A GOOD DICTIONARY OF POLITICAL THOUGHT. THROWING WORDS AROUND INAPPROPRIATELY RENDERS THE WORDS MEANINGLESS. THAT IS WHY NO ONE HAS BOTHERED TO ANSWER YOUR SILLY CLAIM. OK? GOT THAT? (
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2007-11-30 15:22:50
shan:
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so shem if there are no facist/nazi jews,then what are those youth who go around using nazi symbols and beating people up as they are jews.
but how can a jew be racist to another jew as we are told jews are of the same race. why are you in denial mode. as for mashfiq having read your comments, even if i was to believe you are a muslim, your thoughts and words are those of zionists, with muslims like you who needs islamophobes.
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2007-11-30 16:03:24
shem:
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shan
learn to read properly before you enter into debate with others. jews can be racist against non-jews the same as any other group. One nutter beating up someone doesn't mean all jews are fascists - you blithering idiot. don't answer others' posts if you are not up to it. how you think you can take on RSD really beats me. No need to answer this, by the way, shan. lie down before you hurt yourself.
(42)
2007-11-30 16:31:18
Mashfiq:
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as for mashfiq having read your comments, even if i was to believe you are a muslim, your thoughts and words are those of zionists, with muslims like you who needs islamophobes. — shanMy thoughts are like Zionist, simply for suggesting that British Muslim organisations should concentrate my time to British domestic issues. Now I understand the threat people like you pose, Ruth Kelly was right and even Melanie Phillip's also has a good argument about the threat you posed to Western society. You nazi anti-semitic fool!
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2007-11-30 17:54:32
shan:
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so when jews do things they are nutters who do it,but when a nutter who happens to be muslim does something then all the muslims are responsible and they should stand up condemn.
if you do not like jews beign labelled then do not label muslims either. as for taking on rsd, lies are like foam on water,they will always get blown away by the gentle breeze of the truth. getting personal means the truth is hurting.
(44)
2007-11-30 17:55:36
shan:
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thankyou for confirming that you are not a muslim but another zionist chameleon.
some info for islamophobes like you,my family has fought for britain on the battlefield,so i will not stand for two bit chameleon zionists calling me a threat to my nation. the threat to my nation comes from people and parties whose allegiance lies to foreign nations,when aspiring leaders of britain have to call themsleves zionists before jweish groups,then that is where the threat emanates from according to my understanding. BTW i have nothing against semitic people,as 90 per cent of semites are arabs.
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2007-11-30 18:32:08
Mashfiq:
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Shan:
What??? You make all these assumptions, when I said nothing about all Muslims being nutters? Who the hell said that? I am a British Muslim too, so I would never say that. I would strongly oppose and criticise British Muslim organisations, who are not reflective of the British Muslim community. You have no argument, so you start talking about Jews and how mad Jewish people are. Another discredited anti-semitic, so Nick Griffin is not the only one then LOL. Thanks Mashfiq, a moderate TRUE Muslim!
(46)
2007-11-30 20:06:01
MelanieP:
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so when jews do things they are nutters who do it,but when a nutter who happens to be muslim does something then all the muslims are responsible and they should stand up condemn. — shanif you do not like jews beign labelled then do not label muslims either. as for taking on rsd, lies are like foam on water,they will always get blown away by the gentle breeze of the truth. getting personal means the truth is hurting. Because when a Muslim/Islamic Terrorist kills people they are doing it based on their understanding of Islam and so their interpretations from the Koran and Hadiths is based on the same Koran that moderate and peace-loving Muslims read. Hence, some people can't distinguish between a radical Islamist and the Muslim guy down the road who just wants to shop in Tesco, watch footie with his mates down the pub and pull a bird on Saturday night. When any single 'nutter' whether Jewish, Christian, Sikh etc carries-out some stupid act then it is unlikely that its due to their interpretation of their religion. Crazy Jewish Nazis aren't Nazis because of Judaism and crazy Jewish settlers are basing their beliefs to a right to land on historical/biblical background of the Jews. If a settler says "God gave us this land" then its echoed by the Koran which says "Allah gave the land to the Children of Israel". Do you have a problem with that? If so then you have to state that the Koran is wrong.
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2007-12-01 03:21:35
shan:
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melaniep no muslim wakes up in the morning and says well today i need to go and invade and occupy a country to steal its wealth and if millions die so what.
all the muslims who are fighting back in the world are nations which are under occupation and oppression. name me one muslim group which goes around the world killing people just because they love to,from what i have researched all the muslims groups fighting in the world are doing to free themselves of occupation. why do jews-christians-buddhists and hindus believe they can take what belongs to others and if millions die so what,is this taught to them by their religion or is it done by criminals within them. Finally Allah promised the land to the tribes of israel and not ashkenazi non semitic people,today the tribes of israel are spread among jews-muslims and christians,so they all have a right to live in israel but non not ashkenazi jews based on the reason you have stated.
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2007-12-01 10:55:58
MelanieP:
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melaniep no muslim wakes up in the morning and says well today i need to go and invade and occupy a country to steal its wealth and if millions die so what. — shanall the muslims who are fighting back in the world are nations which are under occupation and oppression. name me one muslim group which goes around the world killing people just because they love to,from what i have researched all the muslims groups fighting in the world are doing to free themselves of occupation. why do jews-christians-buddhists and hindus believe they can take what belongs to others and if millions die so what,is this taught to them by their religion or is it done by criminals within them. Finally Allah promised the land to the tribes of israel and not ashkenazi non semitic people,today the tribes of israel are spread among jews-muslims and christians,so they all have a right to live in israel but non not ashkenazi jews based on the reason you have stated. What absolute rubbish about Ashkenazi Jews. These are Jews who fled from ancient Israel and are as Semitic as any Jew from the Middle East. They fled to Europe and through intermarry evolved into what are called Ashkenazi Jews who share the same genetic makeup as Jews who never left Israel. I know many Ashkenazi Jews who you could not distinguish from an Israeli born Jew. If we explore the wackiness of the Islamic idea of what is Muslim lands and which are not perhaps you could explain why some Muslims claim Andalucia as "Islamic Lands". My point is to illustrate how Muslims seem to be the World's Estate Agents in determining who owns what. You are so wrong about Asjkenazi Jews rights. Allah gave the Land of Israel to the Jewish People (which you agree with). He didn't say that if you were forced to flee abroad then you gave up your rights to it. Those Jews are descended from teh tribes who were gave the land. You seem to think there was some spontaneous germ of Judaism that arose in Europe like some meteorite from space.
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2007-12-01 11:48:48
MelanieP:
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melaniep no muslim wakes up in the morning and says well today i need to go and invade and occupy a country to steal its wealth and if millions die so what. — shanThe Muslims of Al Qaeda. Hamas, Hezbollah and those who carry out acts of terrorism do. Al Qaeda wants Al Andalus and Israel back as Islamic Lands. That's planning to steal and kill millions. Ahmedinnerjacket in Iran wakes up and dreams about the destruction of Zionism (which means the destruction of Israel).
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2007-12-01 11:51:32
shan:
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the lady who says palestinians never existed,thus in her eyes they are animals.
says the muslims of alqaeda want al andlaus,as someone who is avid reader of history not once have i heard a muslim say they want to take over spain. hamas wants to liberate palestine as this is their right to free their nation,hizboallah was formed to liberate lebanon and exists today because israel still occupies lebanese territory. just like baathist rule in iraq was wiped out so will the zionist regime that occupies palestine. just like the nazis who ruled germany were wiped out,so shall zionists who rule palestine.
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2007-12-01 12:21:52
MelanieP:
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the lady who says palestinians never existed,thus in her eyes they are animals. — shansays the muslims of alqaeda want al andlaus,as someone who is avid reader of history not once have i heard a muslim say they want to take over spain. hamas wants to liberate palestine as this is their right to free their nation,hizboallah was formed to liberate lebanon and exists today because israel still occupies lebanese territory. just like baathist rule in iraq was wiped out so will the zionist regime that occupies palestine. just like the nazis who ruled germany were wiped out,so shall zionists who rule palestine. The Palestinians never existed as a national identity (pending) until Arafat organised them after the 1967 war defeat. Al Qaeda's policy is to reclaim Al Andalus as stated in at least two comminiques. Hamas don't want to 'liberate' Palestine they want to destroy Israel and kill its Jews to return Israel as "Islamic Lands" (same as Al Qaeda). Why wouldn't Hexbollah try and negotiate over this mythical land that Israel occupies. I think you mean Shebaa Farms. Syria and The Lebanon can't agree who owns it so how can Israel give it back to the owners? Anyway, it has to be done under Res 242. According to the EU working document on the definition of Antisemitism your comparison between Israel and Nazis is definitely Antisemitic. If you say that "Zionists rule Palestine" then you are declaring the fact that you don't want a two state solution.
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2007-12-01 16:12:50
I Sidat:
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[quote=MelanieP
The Palestinians never existed as a national identity (pending) until Arafat organised them after the 1967 war defeat.[/quote] What are you talking about Palestine has been mentioned all the way back to the 13th century, you must be living in disney land
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2007-12-02 19:46:40
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"WARNING!" screamed the flyer being thrust into my hand by a concerned-looking young religious man as I entered the hall. "American Jews are in danger!" it continued. "Countless Neo-Nazi groups are spreading their venemous [sic] message ... at public demonstrations calling for violence against Jews ... and praising Hitler as a 'true hero'!"









