| Islamophobia. Am I bovvered?? |
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| Tuesday, 20 November 2007 | |
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This statement is ‘not the ramblings of a British National Party thug, [...] but the reflections of Martin Amis, leading luminary of the English metropolitan literary world,’, as Professor Eagleton emphasised when he spoke out against the Islaophobic comments of distinguished author and fellow Manchester University professor Martin Amis. I had a conversation recently with the president of the Manchester Student Islamic Society (I-Soc). I asked him if there had been any discussion on the recent Amis - Eagleton dialogue. They both have teaching posts at the University of Manchester and its was speculated that Muslim students may boycott Amis’ lectures. Which is why I phoned up the I-Soc President who told me no one had boycotted lectures. I asked if the I-Soc had sent messages of thanks or support to Professor Eagleton? He repeatedly told me no they hadn’t, this wasn’t their remit, this whole situation should be the concern of the wider community, they were busy with other things, they were a small society (800+ Muslims students in the University) and its not like Amis had attacked them directly... I completely understand his point - they are students on very demanding courses (although this doesn’t prevent Zionist students being active on behalf of Israel!). The brother said didn’t I think we (MPACUK) should have been the ones to comments on this? I think Professor Eagleton should definitely be thanked and I did thank him on behalf of MPACUK, but maybe its not such a big deal, maybe I’m not bovvered... Incidentally Amis’ next novel has an Islamic theme and I doubt Muslims or Islam will be portrayed in a positive light... indeed Islam and Muslims are seldom portrayed in a good light. But so what? Is it something we are bothered about? I certainly don’t hear much conversation among Muslims about the increased demonisation of the Deen and community. The Muslims I come into contact with outside MPACUK seem more concerned with each others’ appearance, issues like free-mixing, threading eyebrows, wiping over of socks, eating prawns (all important issues of course). I hardly ever hear conversations about Islamophobia, poverty, under-development, deprivation, inequality, conflict… I have to admit its much more fun to just issue denunciations at each other don’t you think? And the argument I hear most is who cares what the unbelievers think, or what the infidel media publish - we don’t need any PR for Islam! Perhaps the MCB are over-reacting when they say there is a climate of unease and suspicion and surely giving the example of 1930’s Germany is just ridiculous?! After all, there plenty of respected Muslims in public life? Admittedly there are often witch-hunts against them and they are ridiculed and denounced often and not just by non-Muslims. (My salaams to the brother who told me the MCB were Kafirs outside the mosque the other day). There are also plenty of positive stories about Muslims and Islam in the mainstream media…ok I googled for a bit - may have to get back to you on that... So are we bothered by the sheer amount of negative coverage Islam and Muslims get? Does it matter to us? After all we go on with our everyday lives. I have to admit I haven’t been attacked or abused recently. I know maybe this sister was . But so what? Its just one sister. And this brother was harassed at work . But again its just one brother. Most of us are getting on with our lives quite nicely; paying mortgages, establishing careers, driving nice cars with personalised number plates, taking luxurious holidays. So what if the tabloids publish stories with Islamophobic fictions like Muslims are offended by the Holocaust, or we want to ban Christmas or we are responsible for the spread of MRSA. In fact Muslims are even suspected of abducting Madeleine Mcann. It’s just the mainstream media. I’m sure people don’t believe everything they read every day especially if they know Muslims personally! And we all have plenty of non-Muslim friends, don’t we? Let’s face it, it doesn’t have a direct effect on my wonderful life when Islam is demonised or misunderstood, the Prophet (saw) is insulted or Martin Amis says he wants me to be deported. That was only a thought that evaporated soon after so maybe we should just cut him some slack! And I think we should be controlling our kids anyway, look how many Asbos they are getting. After all I’m perfectly happy in my perfect suburban Muslim middle class bubble. I just ain’t bovvered!!! Well actually I am... I’m bothered most by the fact that my experience tells me most of you guys aren’t bothered. Am I wrong? I hope I am …But ask yourself are you actively promoting an understanding of Islam, dispelling myths and lies and being the very best example of a Muslim you can be? Alhamduililah you are but I still think we all need to try harder... One small thing we could do is take 2 minutes out of our comfortable lives, and e-mail The Guardian congratulating Ronan Bennett on his outstanding article protesting at the increasingly acceptable Islamophobia spread by the likes of Martin Amis.
E-mail: g2@guardian.co.uk Send letters for publication, with name address and contact number to: letters@guardian.co.uk           Readers have left 50 comments.
Samson:
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Would someone please fix the layout of the article so we can read it!
(1)
2007-11-21 11:24:48
MPACUK:
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Would someone please fix the layout of the article so we can read it! — Samson
(2)
2007-11-21 12:15:19
Samson:
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The quote about Holocaust Memorial be 'offensive to Muslims' comes out of the Muslim committee appointed to advise Blair how to tackle the extremism that led to 7/7.
Its from the Sunday Times (and other papers):- "From The Sunday TimesSeptember 11, 2005 Ditch Holocaust day, advisers urge Blair" "Abul Taher ADVISERS appointed by Tony Blair after the London bombings are proposing to scrap the Jewish Holocaust Memorial Day because it is regarded as offensive to Muslims. They want to replace it with a Genocide Day that would recognise the mass murder of Muslims in Palestine, Chechnya and Bosnia as well as people of other faiths. The draft proposals have been prepared by committees appointed by Blair to tackle extremism. He has promised to respond to the plans, but the threat to the Holocaust Day has provoked a fierce backlash from the Jewish community. Holocaust Day was established by Blair in 2001 after a sustained campaign by Jewish leaders to create a lasting memorial to the 6m victims of Hitler. It is marked each year on January 27. The Queen is patron of the charity that organises the event and the Home Office pays £500,000 a year to fund it. The committees argue that the special status of Holocaust Memorial Day fuels extremists’ sense of alienation because it “excludes” Muslims. A member of one of the committees, made up of Muslims, said it gave the impression that “western lives have more value than non-western lives”. That perception needed to be changed. “One way of doing that is if the government were to sponsor a national Genocide Memorial Day. “The very name Holocaust Memorial Day sounds too exclusive to many young Muslims. It sends out the wrong signals: that the lives of one people are to be remembered more than others. It’s a grievance that extremists are able to exploit.” It seems perverse to use the imagery of Nazi Germany's extermination of the Jews to suggest what could happen to Muslims in the UK - and then refute the efficacy of acknowledging The Holocaust.
(3)
2007-11-21 12:33:37
Rob:
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There are people with racist and bigoted views in all sections of society,this person is no diffrent then the american guy who said white people were genetically more clever than black people.
so its no surprise that such views are held by people in education-police and the government. how clever a race or person is depends on the level of education obtained, which in turn depends on a stable family and society.
(4)
2007-11-21 14:40:40
you muppet:
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I am so glad to see that it is not only MPAC who hold these scum isoc's to account.
Allah's curse is on them for not seeing the evil in front of them and doing nothing to help others.
(5)
2007-11-21 16:04:36
Samson:
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"I completely understand his point - they are students on very demanding courses (although this doesn’t prevent Zionist students being active on behalf of Israel!). "
That's because "Zionist Students" are blessed with such intelligence that what may seem "very demanding courses" only require a bit of part-time work from them. Its something that you get when you become a "Zionist" I guess. They seem to have all the good jobs etc. Seem to be successful. Strange because "Zionists" are a rag-tag bunch of people. Mostly Christians and Jews I guess. There's nothing that they genetically have in common so why they are so good at stuff is a mystery.
(6)
2007-11-21 16:58:34
Tahira:
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Strange because "Zionists" are a rag-tag bunch of people. Mostly Christians and Jews I guess. There's nothing that they genetically have in common so why they are so good at stuff is a mystery. So Samson - you subscribe to a 19th Century view of different 'races' having different levels of intelligence??? The explanation is simpler - there is currently a passified culture prevalent within the Muslim community. Whereas Zionist youth and student organisations instill a culture of activism and effectiveness in those who subscribe to that ideology.
(7)
2007-11-21 17:23:29
Tahira:
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It's very important we e-mail the Guardian to thank them for the Ronan Bennett's article rebutting Amis' views, and submitting letters for publication. The debate is raging with Martin Amis' friends rallying to his defence.
(8)
2007-11-21 17:26:24
Samson:
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Strange because "Zionists" are a rag-tag bunch of people. Mostly Christians and Jews I guess. There's nothing that they genetically have in common so why they are so good at stuff is a mystery. So Samson - you subscribe to a 19th Century view of different 'races' having different levels of intelligence??? The explanation is simpler - there is currently a passified culture prevalent within the Muslim community. Whereas Zionist youth and student organisations instill a culture of activism and effectiveness in those who subscribe to that ideology. BTW, it was also said in the 20th and 21st Century. No I don't subscribe to it. I was pointing-out that the writer chose to use the phrase "Zionist Students". I think they MEANT "Jewish Students" and so I parodied the point. Also the writer said the courses were "demanding". Well, maybe the writer felt them 'demanding' and maybe the Zionist students didn't and so they found plenty of time. I didn't make the statements with racist undertones. I simply developed them to their absurd conclusion.
(9)
2007-11-21 19:30:41
Mehreen:
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Excellent article, I hope it wakes people up and gets them emailing.
(10)
2007-11-21 20:34:23
manchester isoc are stupid:
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i say we contact the isoc and tell them what we think of them.
ostriches in the face of Islamophobia and self serving in the face of false piety.
(11)
2007-11-21 22:42:45
Tahira:
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Strange because "Zionists" are a rag-tag bunch of people. Mostly Christians and Jews I guess. There's nothing that they genetically have in common so why they are so good at stuff is a mystery. So Samson - you subscribe to a 19th Century view of different 'races' having different levels of intelligence??? The explanation is simpler - there is currently a passified culture prevalent within the Muslim community. Whereas Zionist youth and student organisations instill a culture of activism and effectiveness in those who subscribe to that ideology. BTW, it was also said in the 20th and 21st Century. No I don't subscribe to it. I was pointing-out that the writer chose to use the phrase "Zionist Students". I think they MEANT "Jewish Students" and so I parodied the point. Also the writer said the courses were "demanding". Well, maybe the writer felt them 'demanding' and maybe the Zionist students didn't and so they found plenty of time. I didn't make the statements with racist undertones. I simply developed them to their absurd conclusion. So you just ASSUME the writer meant Jewish Students when they wrote Zionist Students, and go on to parody this ASSUMED racial gereralisation? Did you by any chance assume the writer is anti-Semitic on the basis that they are Muslim, or is that an assumption you happen to make about everybody?
(12)
2007-11-22 07:01:45
Tahira:
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WAKE UP MUSLIMS and get emailing to get your voices heard the debate in The Guardian.
Maybe Manchester ISOC might even take 10mins from their busy courses (and busy nasheed concerts etc if I remember ISOCS!) to write a letter defending Muslims???
(13)
2007-11-22 07:04:07
you muppet:
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For the point the Samson made, is valid (though paranoid), the Zionists students, and Jewish students, and Students who play rugby, go hiking, etc all have demanding courses and yet they still either defend themselves, or in the case of Zionists students attack others. Yet Muslims pretend they are the only ones doing demanding courses.
shame on them and their crappy isoc and may Allah send a zionist thug to beat their brains out.
(14)
2007-11-22 07:43:06
Samson:
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For the point the Samson made, is valid (though paranoid), the Zionists students, and Jewish students, and Students who play rugby, go hiking, etc all have demanding courses and yet they still either defend themselves, or in the case of Zionists students attack others. Yet Muslims pretend they are the only ones doing demanding courses. — you muppetshame on them and their crappy isoc and may Allah send a zionist thug to beat their brains out. I see. Only "Zionist" students attack others. I won't bore you with the hundreds of violent demonstrations against Jewish students meetings. I could refer you to the Parliamentary Report on Antisemitism which clearly details the threats to Jewish students from Muslim students and refer to Muslim groups barred by Universities for their agressive and disruptive attitudes. Note I wrote "Jewish" and not "Zionist". The word Zionist only masks the underlying AntiSemitism.
(15)
2007-11-22 07:55:26
Samson:
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@tahira:- "Did you by any chance assume the writer is anti-Semitic on the basis that they are Muslim, or is that an assumption you happen to make about everybody?"
No, I made it on the basis of singling out "Zionist" students, who are all Jewish and suggesting they shouldn't have time to demonstrate when they have "demanding courses". And yet ALL the students have the same 'demanding courses'. Hence, I was led to the assumption that "Zionst students" had MORE time because to them the courses weren't so demanding. Then I note that it is the writer who believes teh courses are "demanding" and so I ssume to them they really are "demanding".
(16)
2007-11-22 07:58:52
zayba:
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pls note a zionist like samson simply hones in on one point and defends his fellow zionists he has no comment on the degree of Islamophobia and demonisation of muslims in the media how would they react if the Sun had the headline 'jews spread MRSA' ? but he doesnt give a damn he is just obsfucating the issue and implying the auothor/mpac/muslims are anti-semitic ....as usual...yawnnnn
everyone email the Guardian no doubt Amis' friends are rallying to his defence.
(17)
2007-11-22 09:49:50
Samson:
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pls note a zionist like samson simply hones in on one point and defends his fellow zionists he has no comment on the degree of Islamophobia and demonisation of muslims in the media how would they react if the Sun had the headline 'jews spread MRSA' ? but he doesnt give a damn he is just obsfucating the issue and implying the auothor/mpac/muslims are anti-semitic ....as usual...yawnnnn — zaybaeveryone email the Guardian no doubt Amis' friends are rallying to his defence. If the headline was "Jews spread MRSA" then it would be immediately be condemmed as Antisemitic. If it said that "Muslims spread MRSA" then it would suggest Islamaphobia and I would condemn such scare-mongering. Where is there such a headline? Where was it? My guess is that it was some story at least six months ago where some Muslim hospital visitors were alleged to have refused to wash their hands because the handwash contained alcohol. I do not know if this was true or not. How was the article presented in headline? Hey, since you called me a "Zionist" do you really mean to label me as a Jew? How could you detect from my writing that I am a "Zionist". Is it for simply disagreeing with some points?
(18)
2007-11-22 12:34:58
Samson:
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OK, I tracked it down. As I thought there is NO headline saying "Muslims spread MRSA" there is not even an article that SAYS "Muslims spread MRSA". What YOU are doing by insisting this is a headline is to spread Islamaphobia.
The Sun Headline, 29th Dec 2006, says "Muslims 'refuse anti-MRSA gel'. Their headline is accurate and reflected in the story. "SOME Muslims are undermining the battle to rid Britain’s hospitals of killer infections by refusing to wash their hands when visiting sick relatives. Dispensers containing anti-bacterial gel have been placed outside wards at hospitals all over Britain in a bid to get rid of superbugs like MRSA and PVL. It prevents people bringing in more infections. But some Muslims refuse to use the hand cleansers on religious grounds because they contain alcohol." This was featured at "Islamaphobia Watch" under their headline "Muslims spread disease in hospitals, Sun claims". The Sun DID NOT CLAIM THAT!!! A typical example of taking a story, twisting it and presenting it as Islamaphobic! Sheesh!
(19)
2007-11-22 13:36:26
Syed:
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Whatever.
Getting back to the point, I thought Ronan Bennett's editorial was fantastic and I'll be writing to The Guardian to let them know my thoughts.
(20)
2007-11-22 13:54:15
Samson:
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Back to the article.
I suppose the bottom line is to ask if Amis has been spoken to by the police or charged for anything he said? I go back to a speech by Ruth Kelly soon after she dumped the MCB and had to do with cultural integration. He point was that while you didn't have any right to make racist or inciteful remarks it was a cultural Western norm to criticise religions and people and for it to be understood that such criticism is part of our Western Liberal values. Most of Europe showed the Mohammed Cartoons. We demonstrated our consideration for the Muslim community by not doing-so. Personally I think we should have but my view is a minority. Our cultural liberal values allowed Nick Griffin to say that "Islam is a wicked and vicious faith". Our police arrested and charged him for that and our jury system cleared him. His views were on the edge of acceptability and strayed in an out of it. In fact his defence was to use quotations from the Koran to try and prove his point. Of course many of us would be offended by such a bold statement and I wouldn't have been suprised if he was found guilty. But Law Lords always say that juries more often get it right.
(21)
2007-11-22 15:15:39
zayba:
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now the zionist is defending offensive islamophobic articles and claiming what Nick Griffin says is acceptable ..again just typical demonise Muslims as much as you like and if we dare to complain accuse us of faking and twisting things i was offended by that article it was rubbish there is nothing wrong with washing with alchohol no one was telling muslims to drink it but the entire muslim community was demonised as irresponisble and spreading MRSA but of course our feelings dont matter at all- keep speading the islamophobia next time someone is attacked or pushed off the tube like my friend defend them to why dont you?
(22)
2007-11-22 16:21:20
shan:
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The odd thing is muslims are always lectured that western liberal democcray means freedom of speech is guaranteed.
in some western countries try questioning the holocaust-speaking agaisnt homosexuals-jews-black people and lesbians and see how far freedom of speech gets you. the same paper who printed the cartoons of prophet muhammad s.a.w refused to print cartoons of jesus p.b.u.t,so much for freedom of speech and expression. as a muslism try using your freedom of speech and exppresion and see how quickly you are put in jail,using by hook or crook we wil get you laws. as i have stated on many occasions do not patrionise us,we are citizens and we feel our rights being taken away. 3 people tortured and killed a man who was simnple minded,the three people were given 8-7 and 9 years if memory serves me right,this was about 4 months ago,a young lad downloads images of the fighting in iraq on his pc and is given 8 years in scotland. still some one will make a excuse for this.
(23)
2007-11-22 16:36:46
Samson:
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How you twist the truth of what I said zayba.
My comments:- "His views were on the edge of acceptability and strayed in an out of it. In fact his defence was to use quotations from the Koran to try and prove his point. Of course many of us would be offended by such a bold statement and I wouldn't have been suprised if he was found guilty." Are obviously NOT a defence of Griffin. It is Ruth Kelly who says that intergration in Western culture means the ability to accept comments you don't like. Its the right to offend that we tolerate but we don't tolerate the right to cause deep offense or incitement to harm. You said "but the entire muslim community was demonised as irresponisble and spreading MRSA" Clearly this is NOT true. The article never said ALL Muslims and it never said Muslims spread MRSA. Why don't you read what was said rather than make up what it said? She is right.
(24)
2007-11-22 17:21:39
Samson:
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The odd thing is muslims are always lectured that western liberal democcray means freedom of speech is guaranteed. — shanin some western countries try questioning the holocaust-speaking agaisnt homosexuals-jews-black people and lesbians and see how far freedom of speech gets you. the same paper who printed the cartoons of prophet muhammad s.a.w refused to print cartoons of jesus p.b.u.t,so much for freedom of speech and expression. as a muslism try using your freedom of speech and exppresion and see how quickly you are put in jail,using by hook or crook we wil get you laws. as i have stated on many occasions do not patrionise us,we are citizens and we feel our rights being taken away. 3 people tortured and killed a man who was simnple minded,the three people were given 8-7 and 9 years if memory serves me right,this was about 4 months ago,a young lad downloads images of the fighting in iraq on his pc and is given 8 years in scotland. still some one will make a excuse for this. Why would you WANT to question The Holocaust? Why would you want to speak out about "homosexuals-jews-black people and lesbians". What is it you burn to say? I will assume whatever it was - it was racist, offensive and/or actionable by the police - otherwise you would say it. You said "the same paper who printed the cartoons of prophet muhammad s.a.w refused to print cartoons of jesus p.b.u.t,so much for freedom of speech and expression" - absolutely NOPT true. Western media is full of cartoons of Jesus. You can see many programs on satellite which question the story of Jesus and the disciples. Question whether Jesus got married etc. We don't mind at all. Its all fair comment and historical analysis. " people tortured and killed a man who was simnple minded,the three people were given 8-7 and 9 years if memory serves me right,this was about 4 months ago,a young lad downloads images of the fighting in iraq on his pc and is given 8 years in scotland." * years in Scotland is worth a lifetime in England. I think the sentence for the 3 murdersrer was short by 20 years. The sentence for the terrorist is about right.
(25)
2007-11-22 17:28:49
zayba:
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the fact is the MRSA article certainly doesnt show muslims in a good light it reinforces prejudice and fear, it plays on the fear poeple already have of Islam and Muslims. There have been plenty more such articles in the tabloids but samson will defend all of them it suits his agenda to have us vilified. Samson go and rally support for Amis at the Jewish chronicle, im sure you agree with all his hate speech, you certainly arent challenging it.
(26)
2007-11-22 17:32:12
shan:
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as usual twist the words like you are trained to do so,the words were this paper which printed the prophet cartoons refused to print cartoons about jesus because christians would feel offended,so what did they think muslims would be over the moon about their prophet being shown with a bomb strapped onto his head.
so how was this young lad a terrorist by downloading news about occupation soldeirs being killed in iraq,does he not have the right to freedom of speech and expression. then why do people talk about freedom of speech when insulting muslims when freedom of speech does not exist but is licensed according to the aims of governments.
(27)
2007-11-22 17:47:16
Samson:
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the fact is the MRSA article certainly doesnt show muslims in a good light it reinforces prejudice and fear, it plays on the fear poeple already have of Islam and Muslims. There have been plenty more such articles in the tabloids but samson will defend all of them it suits his agenda to have us vilified. Samson go and rally support for Amis at the Jewish chronicle, im sure you agree with all his hate speech, you certainly arent challenging it. — zaybaIs it a lie to say that we have strict controls over MRSA that can kill people. we reasonably ask hospital visitors to wash their hands in an alcohol scrub used across the NHS and used by thousands of Muslims every day who work for the NHS - and yet we have some people who refused because of their Muslim faith. Sorry, but the right NOT to die from MRSA is a greater purpose and human right than to refuse to wash your hands because of your religion. It IS an issue worth highlighting because cutural integration is a BIG issue in the UK and here is an illustration of a problem. My guess would be that if these people who refused to wash their hands were to ask an Imama then the anser would be that they are allowed to wash their hands. I'll bet you would agree with me. Where the balance is missing is where they didn't take the opinion of an Imam who would have surely confirmed that they should have washed their hands. Where this gets to be unhelpful is that some PC non-Muslim is going to start anticipating problems and creating policies designed to accommodate Musliums when they haven't asked to be accommodated - so creating more tension. Sorry, but my opinion is either "Wash your hands in the prescribed manner - or leave the hospital". We are talking about potential deaths from MRSA. Couldn't we also say that their attitude was selfish in that they were prepared to risk lives by such strict adherence to their religious beliefs? Anyway, sorry we have been driven off-topic.
(28)
2007-11-22 19:42:06
Samson:
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so how was this young lad a terrorist by downloading news about occupation soldeirs being killed in iraq,does he not have the right to freedom of speech and expression. then why do people talk about freedom of speech when insulting muslims when freedom of speech does not exist but is licensed according to the aims of governments. Obviously this was not just what the 'lad' was doing. CPS made a case and a jury convicted. Jurys have also found people on terrorism charges NOT guilty. One minute Muslims object to Foreign Policy and now you seem to be objecting to British Justice and Jury Trials. Is there anything you DO like about Britain???
(29)
2007-11-22 19:44:58
Tom:
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the fact is the MRSA article certainly doesnt show muslims in a good light it reinforces prejudice and fear, it plays on the fear poeple already have of Islam and Muslims. — zaybaIf Muslims used the gel like everyone else, there would be nothing to report. There is a need to stop MRSA in hospital wards. Would God not understand that. Sheer self inflicted madness you choose to defend regardless.
(30)
2007-11-22 20:23:10
I Sidat:
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I was in hosputal for a total of 6 months and 2 weeks i used this gel, since i was diagnosed with an infection after my operation, this included my relatives, friends and an 'imam' why becuase islam does state that alchol can be used for medixal puroposes as long as its not too concentrated or you immediately clean yourself (in this case after they met me) ther is a slight misunderstanding on the concept of alcohol usage, as long as your not consuming it (without medical reasons) or selling it you have no sin if you do it delibrately then its a sin. Please can the muslim community stop complicating things and follow the religion correctly.
(31)
2007-11-23 04:18:00
zayba:
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muslims do use the gel you stereotyping Sun reader, i have had two kids i used the gel in hospital we arent supposed to drink alchohol using it in gel/perfume is no problem! most muslims know that the fact that a few people didnt use it doesnt mean all muslims are the culprit it is not news, it was reported just to fan hysteria malign muslims give islamophobes like Tom and samson neither of whom condemn Amis more to complain about: other stories you two might enjoy:
http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/859
(32)
2007-11-23 06:37:05
Samson:
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the fact is the MRSA article certainly doesnt show muslims in a good light it reinforces prejudice and fear, it plays on the fear poeple already have of Islam and Muslims. — TomIf Muslims used the gel like everyone else, there would be nothing to report. There is a need to stop MRSA in hospital wards. Would God not understand that. Sheer self inflicted madness you choose to defend regardless. I believe it is acceptable to not want to use the gel for a religious reason but that must be balanced with the acceptance that you can't visit the hospital. I am sure that an Imam would tell the people who refused that their greater duty to the lives of other people was more important than following the strict laws of Islam in that specific case. I still say the article should have been balanced with asking an Imam. The article is truthful but not balanced. My other point is that thousands of Muslims doctors and nurses in the NHS do use the gel. That should have been added.
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2007-11-23 07:40:52
shan:
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Your state of mind concerning muslims is all too apparent,when you say is there anything you do like about britain,proving my point that when insulting muslims its freedom of speech but when muslims raise questions then the old bigot and racist comes out.
I like a lot about my country but the current bunch of liars in government is who i have a problem with. remember samson and co we are citizens is it hard to get this into your bigoted and hate filled heads.
(34)
2007-11-23 10:13:45
Syed:
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Your state of mind concerning muslims is all too apparent,when you say is there anything you do like about britain,proving my point that when insulting muslims its freedom of speech but when muslims raise questions then the old bigot and racist comes out. — shanI like a lot about my country but the current bunch of liars in government is who i have a problem with. remember samson and co we are citizens is it hard to get this into your bigoted and hate filled heads.
(35)
2007-11-23 10:16:38
Samson:
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Your state of mind concerning muslims is all too apparent,when you say is there anything you do like about britain,proving my point that when insulting muslims its freedom of speech but when muslims raise questions then the old bigot and racist comes out. — shanI like a lot about my country but the current bunch of liars in government is who i have a problem with. remember samson and co we are citizens is it hard to get this into your bigoted and hate filled heads. Yes we ARE all citizens and so you will accept our common rights to question each other's behavious and attitude. I do NOT understand why its racist to discuss issues relating to Muslims when this site is Muslim Public Affairs Committee. That is the subjects. Muslims and Islamic issues. Is it allowed to sometimes disagree. You will note I have been the target of racist abuse many times here - and called a racist for simply wishing to debate. If you can't accept that there are people who disagree with some of the opinions here then go to a closed Comments system and you can stay very happy talking to yourselves instead of holding debate with someone who doesn't see everything through your filter. SUrely THIS is the test of willingness to integrate and move outside of constricting beliefs. I echo Ruth Kelly. True integration is the acceptance that you will hear views you disagree with and may find insulting but that is what a free Western Society does.
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2007-11-23 16:16:45
shan:
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I also agree with what ruth kelly said,true integration is the acceptance that you will hear views that are diffrent to yours and you should remember this when telling others so is there anything you like about britain.
so next time check your own bigotry before lecturing others on integration and freedom of speech. when your twisted and bigoted mind accepts that people who happen to be muslims are british as well,then you will not say what you did.
(37)
2007-11-23 16:45:41
I SIdat:
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Samson where do you get your information from? who told you Islam has very strict rules? As far as am concerned and someone who has studied over 15 religions i cna tell you Islam is not as strict as it seems, in fact there are religions that stricter but the followers choose to ignore this, we had a cardinal's lecture in italy who told us he was 'dismayed' by the lack of christian understanding i.e. the way people behave contradicts thier religion, drinking is actually forbidden other than 'pass over' the women are restricted to thier freedom yet many do what they want. After he finished a Hindu priest stood up and talked about the strict behavioural rules that hindu's suppossed to comply by e.g. meat is forbidden yet many people in india and around the world from that faith do other wise, women are supposed to listen to thier husbands and once they are married they are bound by that as in a 'contract' they have to abide by thier rules and do what they are told but they don't follow this. Islam is seen as strict becuase muslims follow thier religion in a more coherent manner yes there are people that go beyond thier religion like the terrorists
(38)
2007-11-24 04:01:26
Samson:
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I also agree with what ruth kelly said,true integration is the acceptance that you will hear views that are diffrent to yours and you should remember this when telling others so is there anything you like about britain. — shanso next time check your own bigotry before lecturing others on integration and freedom of speech. when your twisted and bigoted mind accepts that people who happen to be muslims are british as well,then you will not say what you did. Let me be clear about Ruth Kelly's speech and its boundary in order to assure you I was NOT making my comments about ALL Muslims. Ruth Kelly was responding to the output of MCB who claimed to represent Muslims in the UK. I don't think for one moment that they do, but they do sway influence. She was also referring to protesting groups about the cartoons. Hence she related denial of attending Holocaust Rememberance as something that was anti-Integrating and protesting about cartoons as indicative of not accepting the norms of Western culture of the right to offend. In addition we have the rights to practice homosexuality which Sacranie made a strong statement as leader of a group who is supposed to represent UK muslims. We then have the furore over Satanic Verses. Finally, inviting the terrorist/suicide bombing Qarradawi and embracing him as some positive icon. I am ABSOLUTELY sure for a fact that many Muslims don't sign up for these negative non-integrational things and are seamlessly part of British society while having the freedom to practice and observe whatever degree of Islam they choose. But when you feel your lives are threatened by a small part of an identifiable community with a singular driving compass then the media and commentators will ONLY deal with who that threat comes from. The haedline "Martians think that traffic wardens should be killed" will ALWAYS carryt the label "Martian" and that label might only apply to 1% of Martians. But the headline is true. Headlines rarely carry a modifier "few", "some", "tiny number of" because headlines have to use fewest words.
(39)
2007-11-24 11:11:25
Samson:
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Samson where do you get your information from? who told you Islam has very strict rules? As far as am concerned and someone who has studied over 15 religions i cna tell you Islam is not as strict as it seems, in fact there are religions that stricter but the followers choose to ignore this, we had a cardinal's lecture in italy who told us he was 'dismayed' by the lack of christian understanding i.e. the way people behave contradicts thier religion, drinking is actually forbidden other than 'pass over' the women are restricted to thier freedom yet many do what they want. After he finished a Hindu priest stood up and talked about the strict behavioural rules that hindu's suppossed to comply by e.g. meat is forbidden yet many people in india and around the world from that faith do other wise, women are supposed to listen to thier husbands and once they are married they are bound by that as in a 'contract' they have to abide by thier rules and do what they are told but they don't follow this. Islam is seen as strict becuase muslims follow thier religion in a more coherent manner yes there are people that go beyond thier religion like the terrorists — I SIdatI tie this in with your other comment above:- "I was in hosputal for a total of 6 months and 2 weeks i used this gel, since i was diagnosed with an infection after my operation, this included my relatives, friends and an 'imam' why becuase islam does state that alchol can be used for medixal puroposes as long as its not too concentrated or you immediately clean yourself (in this case after they met me) ther is a slight misunderstanding on the concept of alcohol usage, as long as your not consuming it (without medical reasons) or selling it you have no sin if you do it delibrately then its a sin. Please can the muslim community stop complicating things and follow the religion correctly. " You seem to be saying that the people mentioned in the article were being too strict in following what they thought was against the laws of Islam. You agree that there are circumstances where using the gel causes no conflict. This is a case where someone perceives Islam to be strict and rigid - and yet it isn't. I can agree with you on this. The biggest tragedy we have recently had was the mother who gave birth to twins and refused blood because of her religion (Jehovahs Witness). She died and left her children without a mother. Its the folly of people who put religion before life and common sense. I was absolutrely sure that there was nothing in Islam that meant a Muslim could not wash their hands in a gel with alcohol. I said that I wish the Sun had balanced the article. Hopefully we dovetailed into an agreement.
(40)
2007-11-24 11:20:01
shan:
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You can twist and turn as much as you like the simple matter of fact is that you are bigoted person who does not think of muslima as british citizens and this oozes out of your remarks.
whether i or anyone wants to wants to attend a memorial is my right as a person living in a nation with rights of freedom of speech and expression. what next muslims will have to participate in drinking binges,sexual orgies-homosexuality and lesbianism to show how integrated they are. what you are saying is not integration it is assimilation and guess what, the things you say about muslims not integrating according to your and labours ideals, is the same thing others say about english people in their countries,so bigotry and racism is a two way street to be used agaisnt minorities.
(41)
2007-11-24 13:13:11
Samson:
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what next muslims will have to participate in drinking binges,sexual orgies-homosexuality and lesbianism to show how integrated they are. I'm sure some Muslims already participate in those acts. That alone would not show any degree of assimilation. I have said so many times that the attitudes of Muslims in the UK tend to be illustrated by the outburst of those who claim to represent Muslims. Even the Govt thinks they do it so badly that they are trying to go direct to Muslim communities through what they call moderate organisations. I'm sure the bad press isn't matched by many UK Muslims in the community. I am sure that their integration into British society and culture isn't an issue. But attitudes I read on this website demonstrate the opposite. You are free to not attend Holocaust Memorial. But Muslim Council of Britain and some representatives of the Muslim community who acted as advisors to the Govt stated that HMD was "offensive to Muslims" and they said it was "too exclusive". I have a great issue with any organisation that can be so callous.
(42)
2007-11-24 15:15:57
shan:
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i am also sure and know for a fact that the majority of fellow non muslim british people are not bigots and racists,although reading what some say,you maybe forgive for thinking that they were.
i will never beleive that the mcb said holocaust day was offensive to muslims.i can beleive they said muslims question why holocaust memorial is shown as a jewish tragedy when many people have been killed in genocdies,so we shoud remember them all. so lets start of by recognising that people who are muslims are british citizens and if you have the right to freedom of speech,then so they. lets learn not to patrionise others and see how can to make our society better.
(43)
2007-11-24 15:51:19
I Sidat:
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Samson I think what you'r trying to say is that muslims who are in-correctly following thier religion have a twisted view or have added traditional influences like 'culture' If am right if your saying this then i agree with you becaue there are majority of the people who do this like arranged marriages or forced marriages which is prevelant in both Muslim and Sikh communitites.
The point on integration really does come down to waht you percieve as integration its a complex subject and can only be approached in a reasonable manner
(44)
2007-11-24 17:52:14
Tom:
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I believe it is acceptable to not want to use the gel for a religious reason but that must be balanced with the acceptance that you can't visit the hospital. I am sure that an Imam would tell the people who refused that their greater duty to the lives of other people was more important than following the strict laws of Islam in that specific case. I still say the article should have been balanced with asking an Imam. The article is truthful but not balanced. My other point is that thousands of Muslims doctors and nurses in the NHS do use the gel. That should have been added. Agreed.
(45)
2007-11-24 18:08:41
Waraqah:
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Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,
"There is currently a passified culture prevalent within the Muslim community." That would explain why the Manchester ISOC didn't want to get involved- they're all too busy trying to passify their exams!
(46)
2007-11-26 10:41:16
Delila:
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i am also sure and know for a fact that the majority of fellow non muslim british people are not bigots and racists,although reading what some say,you maybe forgive for thinking that they were. — shani will never beleive that the mcb said holocaust day was offensive to muslims.i can beleive they said muslims question why holocaust memorial is shown as a jewish tragedy when many people have been killed in genocdies,so we shoud remember them all. so lets start of by recognising that people who are muslims are british citizens and if you have the right to freedom of speech,then so they. lets learn not to patrionise others and see how can to make our society better. Er, its a "Jewish Tragedy" because 50% of Jews were wiped-out. A mere 6 million of them. But anyone who took the trouble to look at HMD website will see it is full of other Genocides and these take on a major theme om HMD. Yes Muslims DID say that HMD was 'offensive to Muslims'. They said it to Tony Blair. MCB tried to politicise HMD by trying to suggest (I kid you not) that the Palestinians have their own holocaust which should be included. To which I reply "The Armenians had a huge Genocide and that must be recognised". Then we have the Genocide in Darfur. MCB made themselves toast with their attitude.
(47)
2007-11-26 17:54:27
shan:
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well give the evidence when mcb said the hmd was offensive to muslims.
(48)
2007-11-26 18:14:21
Delila:
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well give the evidence when mcb said the hmd was offensive to muslims. — shanRead what I said carefully! Sunday Times, Sept 11th 2005 "Abul Taher ADVISERS appointed by Tony Blair after the London bombings are proposing to scrap the Jewish Holocaust Memorial Day because it is regarded as offensive to Muslims. They want to replace it with a Genocide Day that would recognise the mass murder of Muslims in Palestine, Chechnya and Bosnia as well as people of other faiths. The draft proposals have been prepared by committees appointed by Blair to tackle extremism. He has promised to respond to the plans, but the threat to the Holocaust Day has provoked a fierce backlash from the Jewish community. Holocaust Day was established by Blair in 2001 after a sustained campaign by Jewish leaders to create a lasting memorial to the 6m victims of Hitler. It is marked each year on January 27. The Queen is patron of the charity that organises the event and the Home Office pays £500,000 a year to fund it. The committees argue that the special status of Holocaust Memorial Day fuels extremists’ sense of alienation because it “excludes” Muslims. A member of one of the committees, made up of Muslims, said it gave the impression that “western lives have more value than non-western lives”. That perception needed to be changed. “One way of doing that is if the government were to sponsor a national Genocide Memorial Day. “The very name Holocaust Memorial Day sounds too exclusive to many young Muslims. It sends out the wrong signals: that the lives of one people are to be remembered more than others. It’s a grievance that extremists are able to exploit.” I never said that MCB said that HMD was "offensive to Muslims" the writer offers that as the opinion of the Muslim group (who included at least one member of MCB). The quote about the reasons stated by MCB is 100% accurate and you can find it in a letter on their website. I seem to remember they prodiuced the same argument for a number of years. In addition John Ware's program (expose) of MCB also included a passge with Sacranie where he dithered about what he said and what MCB published. I know my stuff VERY well!
(49)
2007-11-26 20:55:25
shan:
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delila read what samson said and what i replied,if you are going to plug into other commenters counter comments,then do read them all before telling others to read carefully.
so delila i ask again give us the proof from mcbs site or from their representatives,who said HMD is offensive to muslims. we do not beleive in he said she said.
(50)
2007-11-27 11:30:52
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There's a definite urge – don't you have it? – to say, 'The Muslim community will have to suffer until it gets its house in order'. What sort of suffering? Not letting them travel. Deportation – further down the road. Curtailing of freedoms. Strip-searching people who look like they're from the Middle East or from Pakistan. Discriminatory stuff, until it hurts the whole community and they start getting tough with their children. They hate us for letting our children have sex and take drugs – well, they've got to stop their children killing people.’
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