| From the MPACUK Forum: Niqab - A Personal Perspective |
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| Tuesday, 16 October 2007 | |
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Anything that Muslims want to do is right. It is not negotiable. It must be allowed. It cannot be criticised. And for a group, which seems to use ‘moral equivalence’ arguments whenever it is subjected to even the mildest criticism, Muslims seem incapable of seeing the ‘moral equivalence’ of their intransigence. I feel fortunate that I have had the opportunity to travel and experience many countries and cultures. This has broadened my mind. In Iran, despite the oppressive heat of August, I wore long trousers. My wife wore a hejab and abiya. We both longed to wear shorter, lighter garments, but we suffered the discomfort and didn’t complain. After all, long trousers for me, and hejab for her, are the law in Iran. In Turkey or Egypt there is no such law. But on our travels there we still dressed 'modestly'. My wife usually wore the hejab despite finding it hot and uncomfortable. We did this voluntarily. Why? It’s called respect. We may not agree with Islamic dress (we don’t), but who are we to judge when we’re in a Muslim majority country? Who am I to think I have any right to make demands on what the people of that country should, and should not, tolerate? A different scenario. My wife is from central Europe where they have a very different attitude to nudity to the British. They see nudity as completely natural and ‘healthy’. Day-time adverts for shampoo will often feature full nudity. The sexualising of nudity is frowned upon as puerile and perverted. Once I visited a swimming pool there with my children, where men and women undressed fully in public by their lockers (despite there being cubicles nearby). No one batted an eyelid. I entered the spa area and was surprised to see people of both sexes, and all ages, wandering around naked. Before I could leave with my children, a fat, naked man came over, prodding and berating me for entering the spa ‘clothed’ (we were wearing swimming trunks). Everyone else was nodding in approval. I turned and left, red-faced. My wife told me that wearing clothes in a spa is considered to be very rude and unhygienic in her country! I may disagree, but what right have I to dictate to or ‘educate’ people in their own countries on what they should and shouldn’t find offensive? If my wife and I insisted on wearing shorts in Eastern Turkey or Egypt then surely we would be inviting hostility and intolerance. If I insisted on staying and wearing my trunks in the spa then surely I would have invited hostility and intolerance. Even though MY views of appropriate dress and modesty are 100% RIGHT and everyone else in the world is WRONG! But we don’t have to ‘understand’ why some people find certain types of dress to be offensive. We don’t have to agree with them. But if we want to be tolerated and respected, then we have to accept them. The niqab is offensive to the vast majority of people in the West. Whether or not this is irrational, it is a FACT and nothing will change that fact. Mini-skirts are offensive to the vast majority of Egyptians. Right or wrong, nothing will change that fact. And as I discovered, wearing clothes in a spa is offensive to most Central Europeans… Arrogantly dressing as WE feel is appropriate and stubbornly disregarding the values, morals and laws of the countries we’re in, is simply a form of passive aggression. It is plain hostility. So wear the niqab in countries where it's legal. But try, please, to understand why people will dislike you for it. by 'Prague Spring' What do you think - you can comment here as well as on our Forum. Readers have left 17 comments.
shan:
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Basically what this person is sayign that we should have the right to be naked if we want but to be modest in our dress sense we should remember in western countries being modest is wrong and we shall let it all hang out.
if my dress sense offends you than you should have the moral courage to think that your dress sense may offends others but they do not force you to dress like them. lastly i do not know the background of who wrote the article but he seems to be forgetting as citizens muslims have the right to dress and eat what they want,this person all so needs to understand the diffrence between a citizen and a visitor to a country. every nation has their own obscenity laws and as far as i know so far no nation has laws telling you to go around naked.
(1)
2007-10-17 14:02:00
mtr:
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Well done MPAC for putting this on your front page. It is a well written neutral assessment of cultural acceptability.
We all need to bend a little.
(2)
2007-10-17 15:08:28
RezaV:
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Shan, I don't think you've got a clue about what this person is saying.
You've completely missed the point.
(3)
2007-10-17 17:11:53
Shahid Khan:
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as citizens muslims have the right to dress and eat what they want — shanTotally missing the point.
(4)
2007-10-17 22:06:28
DaveZ:
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I think there is nothing wrong with Muslims (or anyone else) wearing whatever clothes they want and following the traditions of their culture.
Cultural norms should be respected. So, if the cultural norm for the UK is not to hide your face under a niqab in certain situations then THAT must be respected to. I think that some people in the UK believe that the wearing of niqab is a provocative political act along the road to Islamification and that is why it causes so much comment.
(5)
2007-10-18 08:05:27
Think:
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I have also traveled but it is not countries and cultures that broaden the mind, rather it is knowledge of Allaah and His Messenger (pbuh), for this knowledge is light.
Allaah is our creator. It is He who created the writer of the above article. It is He who created the countries discussed and it is He who created their environments, whether they may be hot or cold. The writer talks about respecting the laws of Iran, Turkey and Egypt and not making any demands of their cultures to suit his own. But what about respecting the One who created Iran, Turkey and Egypt in the first place? Should His demands not come first? Then he mentions nude Europeans who have decided that wearing clothes in a spa is unhygienic. On what basis has this decisions been made? If the One who has created you decrees what is hygienic and what is not, and what is nude and what is not for that matter, who are Europeans or any other nation for that matter, to decide? This is simply a case of humans following their own whims. Answering the call of their base desires without any awareness or understanding of the fact that they were created from nothing but a drop of sperm. Then they were fashioned and protected in the wombs of their mothers. After this they were brought into this world, vulnerable. They had no ability to be nude or covered up – who was providing and protecting for them at that stage? Then Allaah caused them to be nourished with His provision. He gave them education and livelihoods so that they may earn food, drink and clothing for themselves. He gives all of this, for what? For man to decide he wants to be naked? Shame on you! This is not about countries, cultures, respect, nudity, the niqab or anything else. When an individual experiences the realization that he has been created by Allaah, he will leave his own whims and desires and follow the commands of his Lord. And if this means to wear a niqab, then so be it. The norms, values, cultures, customs, traditions, and respect of Allaah come before all the people and countries that He himself has created.
(6)
2007-10-18 13:12:13
DaveZ:
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Think,
You may say and believe:- "This is not about countries, cultures, respect, nudity, the niqab or anything else. When an individual experiences the realization that he has been created by Allaah, he will leave his own whims and desires and follow the commands of his Lord. And if this means to wear a niqab, then so be it. The norms, values, cultures, customs, traditions, and respect of Allaah come before all the people and countries that He himself has created. " But people throughout Europe and the Western World based on Judaeo-Christian Liberalism do not share your beliefs. Surely you must respect the rules, customs and laws of the country in which you reside and not offend those people by suggesting a superiority. You are most welcome to your beliefs. As long as they don't conflict with your chosen society then you will remain happy and so will your fellow citizens.
(8)
2007-10-18 19:52:04
shan:
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I feel need to reiterate again british citzens who happen to be muslims have the same rights to dress or undress as other citizens of britain.
some people have a prejudicial and bigoted thought process,when they say where you reside. muslims are citizens of britain not residents,it does annoy me when people use this type of tone with fellow citizens who have been born and bred in britain and their families have been in britain for the last 60 or 70 years. i think it is time people realised and accepted that we are citizens not just residents. what next the colour of a persons skin will be offensive to people,who prefer to see people with one shade of colour only.
(9)
2007-10-19 12:54:25
DaveZ:
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shan, all clubs have rules. If you don't like the rules then don't join the club.
You might want to argue there should be no difference between the treatment of men and women and equaility. So be it. But a man should not have the right to use a women's public loo on that basis. There are ALWAYS rules and social conventions.
(10)
2007-10-19 15:19:15
George:
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It's not about being ethnic strangers - it's about being ethical strangers. Agreed?
(11)
2007-10-19 15:32:39
shan:
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thankyou for pointing out that out,as i can understand were you are coming from.
so we should be calling you master and shining your shoes,get over it the empire ended decades ago. the laws of the country give people the right tpo dress and eat waht they like within a broad framework.
(12)
2007-10-19 15:43:45
murray:
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'Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.' ~Abraham Lincoln
The best definition of liberty I know of, is tolerating that which does not do harm unto others. So it follows, if don't believe a muslim has the right wear a veil you don't believe in liberty. One of Britain's most cherised and established traditions. Hence it's the niqab haters who are the odds one out, not those voluntarily wearing niqab. Unless it can be demonstrated that wearing niqab can somehow harm other people, then it should be tolerated.
(13)
2007-10-19 22:22:50
Anon:
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What a wierd article.
I want all pretty women to be topless when they go out. The fact they may not want to is irrelevant (because what I want counts). When a young woman in short skirts and half exposed breasts walks by most men would definitely notice/look at her. It’s only natural. This young women can legally say I dress for myself and not others. I did not invite dirty old men to stare me. Could these dirty old men claim it was an invitation to come over and admire her beauty? Would you feel threatened by her if she was totally naked? When a woman wears a niqab she does not want to be seen. There is nothing to see. There is no exposed leg or breast to catch your natural attention. What exactly is threatening about her? Is this a “provocative political act” or a personal choice? Would a nudist demonstator be regarded as a “provocative political act”? Are you saying that people should dress to please others? The world is heading towards me, me, me.ie what an individuals wants. Yet, this articles is saying, no, you don’t matter, please others. Next you will want them to eat the amount you decide, sit, stand, sleep and work when you want. So much for the individuals rights. Show respect for others views. Don't impose yours on others. Learn to be different side by side.
(14)
2007-10-20 12:56:48
DaveZ:
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'Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.' ~Abraham Lincoln — murrayThe best definition of liberty I know of, is tolerating that which does not do harm unto others. So it follows, if don't believe a muslim has the right wear a veil you don't believe in liberty. One of Britain's most cherised and established traditions. Hence it's the niqab haters who are the odds one out, not those voluntarily wearing niqab. Unless it can be demonstrated that wearing niqab can somehow harm other people, then it should be tolerated. In a court of law it is essential that defendants and witnesses be identified and it is the right of a court to see a full face in order to determine facial clues as to the veracity of evidence. In that case it is right to insist that a niqab be removed. It is the same with teaching young children. They have the right to pick up facial cleus as to what a teacher wants and its a very important part of communication. FAces are what babies see first and respond to - so it is important to young children being taught. It is also a western tradition to tell stories about witches and halloween. A young child cannot intellectualise between a woman making a political-right statement and someone who appears to be a witch according to popular drawings and representations of witches in Western Society. It is essential to identify faces for passports and driving licences so niqab is not acceptable for security photos. If an MP feels uncomfortable in speaking with a woman wearing a full face covering and finds it a distraction because he can't see the face then he has a right to say "I don't feel I can do my best for you because I am used to face-to-face meetings" In Western society we are uncomfortable if we can't see a face and so allow us NOT to deal with people who hide it. We think people who hide their face have something to hide.
(15)
2007-10-21 09:38:19
shan:
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If a court wishes to check the veracity of the person in court,then that is simple get a female court clerk to check her.
since david blunkett could not see who he was talking to then that means he was not doing his job properly. anyone talking over the phone cannot be helped because the other person cannot undestand what you are saying. the remark by jack straw was a lame and pathetic excuse,what next a man with a full beard being told i cannot see your face,so if you wish me to help you next time shave your beard off.
(16)
2007-10-22 11:49:07
Kat:
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Shan... really? Must you take things to their extremes? It really doesn't bode well for the argument.
In any case, I am not muslim but would not have a problem adhering to a dress code in another country where more modesty was required whether I was a citizen or not. However, if society encouraged less modesty in dressing I would not adhere because it would conflict with my own value system. For instance, that spa? I wouldn't go in it - its not a judgement on the people inside, but rather a statement that I do not find it appropriate for my own person. Along the same lines, I despair that people are so fearful they'd think modest dress a challenge or threat. More likely, it is the fact that said person is set apart from the crowd, and few people are comfortable with those who don't 'fit in' with their worldview. Unless dressing in a way is deliberately done to harass others, there is no particular reason to discourage it. Ultimately, those people who fear a niqab should learn to comprehend other norms more thoroughly. Although this may cause issues with security cameras, so do hoodies. So do hats. The fear is a target at someone percieved as a threat, not a righteous comment on the purpose of security equipment. -Kat
(17)
2007-10-25 19:38:10
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If there is something that frustrates me most in my discussions with some Muslims, it is their total inability to see the world through the eyes of others.











