FYI: Biblical Christianity has the right to spread around the world no matter what kind of government is established

Dr nashrin's arguments are very convincing and she is very confident and she actually defeated the other guy. congratulations to Dr Nashrin

Well done Dr. Nazreeen Nawas. She has an excellent knowledge about Islam and Islamic Governance ideology. And also she is very firm in her decision and HTB’s ideology. Alhamdu lillah…..! She is an asset and model (special personality) of our Muslim community especially in the women’s wing.

Finding solutions under Islamic values, system and approach is Rabbaniyath (Correct form of Islam or non Jahilliyath). Looking solutions from Western system and an approach is Sheythaniyath (Jahilliyath or non Islamic). This is a simple logic of Islam and path to success of every Muslim.

smilies/grin.gifemocracy is a western concept and terminology and a nice name for a sad game. Islam has its own way and procedure to elect Governor and the Kaleefa to run the system (Kilaafath). Today, Why do the problems exist in the world (Muslim and non Muslim), if the Democracy is the correct solution…? Pl ease…Just raise this simple question, than you will get the correct answer

Infact Br. Zulfi Bukhari of MPAC UK has accepted dead robe of Western concept, but being a (label) Muslim..? Dear, Br. Zulfi Bukhari, there are many fruitful and potential theories in the Islamic ideology which could solve the entire problems of Muslim and non Muslim world. Today the Western however disturbs and interferes unreasonably and deliberately in the matters of Muslim world, (as Dr. Nazreen said, this is major cause for the entire problems on this earth)

For a true Muslim or Islamic Kilaafath, there are some islamically accepted ways to interact with the Western world and non Islamic civilizations. Br. Zulfi Bukhari Should learn more about these methodology and other Islamic basic concepts, please…!!! Because he is holding a very important position in MPAC UK

Again Thanks to Dr. Nazreen Nawaz (Women rep. HTB) and please keep-it-up your position in the light of Islam further. There are many women and men behind you…and also Allah is with YOU!

At a time when Muslims need to be united to work for a common purpose in life(that is to worship Allah alone), how can Brother Zulfi concentrates on the difference of opinion between MPAC and HT and insists on his opinion of democracy? Let the western governments insists on democracy and do those dirty jobs.

MPAC should get rid of him and elect a leader who is ready to work for the unity of Muslims. That's what Khilafah is all about - unity of the Muslims!

Salaam,

I pray Allah rewards the sister for her intellect, wisdom and courage in expressing the sublime Islamic thoughts and values.

The brother has misunderstood the call for revival. If he and his organisation claim to stand up for Muslims and Islamic values then why has he used his 10 minute platform to gain some political mileage for his organisation by trying to malign Hizb ut-Tahrir and its message. HT's message is based upon Islamic orthodoxy which resonates with years of classical scholarship. Why would he want to discredit the message and try and play the democracy card just to appease the western audience?

What is more shocking is that he didn't even seem delighted by the fact that millions of Muslims around the world are demanding the re-establishment of a system that is based upon their heritage. British democracy has been long fought for in Britain and it has seen many changes in its application and philosophy. However this brother seems to want that imposed on the Muslim world? If he understands the reality of the political history of western countries he would see that eventually any collective will base its ideological and political viewpoint on its heritage.

Just to remind the brother, our heritage is Islam, not kufr.

Wasalaam and love,

Assalaamu alaikum and greetings to non-Muslims

May Allah azza wa jalla protect our sister. Indeed if she wanted to humiliate him, it would be too easy. On the one hand he says he accepts Khilafah (lip service?) but on the other his natural disposition ranges from him not possessing a grain of hatred of western interference in our lands to the love their democracy (i.e. sovereignty of man).

Truly the sister did the right thing of not dwelling into the debate on democracy. As for him - I sincerely advise MPAC to replace him…‘democratically’ if they have to (surely, he does not speak for them)

Fee kum amanillah

the brother from mpac needs to understand that the issue of the calipate is not about HT. the idea of the caliphate is bigger than any group or party, as proven by the weekends events the muslim world is demanding the return of islam to state and society.

the world media is now addressing this issue and it gives me total confidence that the islamic giant is waking up.

dr nasreen was excellent in communicating what the khilafah would be like in the muslim world. may allah (swt) reward her.

my advice to my brother from mpac is not to look at the world through a narrow prism set by the western govts.

Mpacuk comes out so badly in that interview, I prefer Asghar Bukhari

unfortunatly mpacuk doesn't come out on top in this particular case. However this does not autimatically make HT correct, the medium in which this debate took place should be taken into account, that is a small slot on a news programme.

It should also be noted that the conference in Indonesia was not the largest ever held in Indonesia or in the world for that matter. There are many conferences held in indonesia that get lareger crowds, it was the media attention that focused on the fringe group of HT that made it seem that it was a huge gathering. Infact a 100,000 gathering in Indonesia is pretty standard, taking into account the population of Indonesia. Also all the people attending that conference were not HT, actually the majority were not, a lot of people were intrigued as to the nature of the discussion. Just because the majority of Muslims in the World want a caliphate does not make them HT, niether does it give HT a monopoly over this issue, with their wahabi, devient version of Islam.

HT have continued to change after 9/11, as they have feared getting banned. They continue to operate on university campuses, which is quite funny considering they tend to have such anti-western rhetoric, yet they recruit from Western, capitalist secular educational institutes. And when some one is erquired to attend an interview they wheel out someone with a doctorate recieved by the western capitalist secular educational board. Do they not recognise that an Islamic education is deemed higher in Islam than any western qualification?

This particular interview should not be seen as a legitamisation of HT, rather they should be compared with traditional islam and it's doctrine. Only after doing this will Muslims realise that HT are way off the mark, with their doctorate holding members, and trimmed bearded, suited and booted brothers. May a suggest you actually study Islam as oppossed to spending so much time at university to get a degree so you may get ligitamacy infront of mummy and daddy and the rest of the Muslim community.

And Allah knows Best

The idea of khilafa is called getting back to your roots,until 1924 the khilafa existed for 1350 odd years.

the point here to be noticed is that all other faiths and religions can unite under diffrent formats and its ok.

but when muslims wish to go back to their roots,then this paranoia breaks out about khilafa,the reason is simple they know if khilafa returns the days of slaughter and robbery without consequences will come to a end.

the chinese can be one-the hindus can be one-the christians in america can be one-the christians in europe are trying to be one,we never hear about them being a threat to anyone,so why the paranoia if muslims wish to be one.

unity is strength and the killers and robbers of muslims know this and are doing their best to stop this reality with help from people with muslim names.

Unfortunately, based on this interview I suspect "lip-service" may be too generous a description of the "actual" position of MPAC on khilfah, Islamic law, unity and governance.

Sadly, I would suggest deceptive, wholly secular and deliberately vague are closer the mark. MPAC have never claimed to be Islamic per se, rather, a Muslim platform which, by definition and today’s reality, can be wholly secular. In this context secular doesn’t mean MPAC are anti-Islam it means they do not feel obliged to stick to Islam in respect to thoughts or rules when this is in opposition to benefit, popular opinion or acceptability amongst the western classes etc.

Taking every possible opportunity to attack HT is not co-incidental nor is it personal. It is aimed at denigrating and mocking any advocates of an Islamic law and Islamic politics, While not actually coming clean about why they attach HT. All this so Muslims eventually fall in behind any political actions and leadership even if secular like MPAC.

I pray I am wrong in my views.

That sister made more sense!!

Around 100 years ago, when the Ottamon Khilafate was in severe debt, and practically bankrupt; the Zionist movement offered to wipe out all their debts and give more on top if only they 'sold' Palestine to them. The Khalifa at the time refused on the grounds that it was not his to sell, rather it belonged to the Ummah. At that moment the Zionist movement and their friends/protectors in the West committed themselves to the destruction of the Khilafate, as they realised that as long as the Khilafate existed they would be unable to realise their evil plans. A look at subsequent British/French policy from then onwards clearly show how they schemed to destroy the Khilafate, and their relief in 1924 when their vision was realised. Since then the biggest fear for the West and Israel has been the political re-unification of the Muslim world.

I think the T brigade are on the mpac website, shame they never defend anyone other then themselve.

Also in my view seems that Zulfi more then held he's own and didnt allow Dr Nasreen to talk her way out of it.

Assalam alaikam

The sister Dr Nawaz was very good, she was questioned and put under pressure from 2 people and answered the question directly and in correct manner. The brother mr Bukahri was just making no sense and was just keep saying Hizb ut tahrir is this and hizb ut tahrir is that, caliphate is islamic concept which belongs to no group and should be supported by the muslims.
Mpac 0 Dr nawaz 1

HT are a disgrace, and MPAC well done for taking them on.

They are nothing short of talkers while the Ummah is oppressed. Shame on them!

MPAC keep it up - you are the real middle way for Muslims

Neither sell outs nor lunatics!

it seems other then the H passive arm chair muslims or dr Naseems relatives everyone else realised that she didnt answer any of the questions.

I wonder how many of the posts are from the same individual?

to see mr bukhari banging on about the differences between his group and ht was a disgrace, especially at a time when we should be showing unity. what made you do that? were you not pleased to see 100,000 people gather callin for islam? bring back asghar, as i think you are doing a diservice to your organisation

The sisters body language suggested that she wasn't telling the whole truth. Nor were her arguments particularly persuasive. Do HT do anything other then organise big conferences?

Abdul Ghaffur:
"The sisters body language suggested that she wasn't telling the whole truth."

Is this the level to which MPAC sink, shame! Do MPAC now offer its "brothers" training on watching women and deciphering their body language?

The concept of the Khalifat is very appealling and for some alluring. Yet if it is to come into being it must do so with the full understanding of why the former collapsed and the different pressure that it would face in the future. If it is to succeed Muslims must slough off these stupid deceptions about Christian and Zionist imperialism / colonialism. Muslims must face the truth about the corruption that was endemic in the old Khalifat. These old men who conjure up this dream that is so alluring to the young Muslim are often merely seeking to re-establish the corruption of the past.
At present too often we are lying to ourselves, and then we lie to others. This makes us weak. And when we are weak then the enemy make knock us down at their leisure. As happened to the old Khalifat.
Even the claims of history here are wrong. It was the British that urged the Khalifat to reform and purge itself of corruption. It was the British and the French who stood alongside the Muslim soldiers in the Crimea War. In the end they walked in when the Ottoman Empire eventuality collapsed. The Austro-Hungarians, the Germans, the Greeks, the Italians, the Russians had all done their bit to wear away the Khalifat, each greedily eying up the territories. As for the Jews, when Napoleon invaded at Acre he offered them much yet they stayed loyal to the Khalifat. 20 years later the Khalifat betrayed that loyalty again & again - no wonder they felt no conpunction to support it. As for Zionist money being offered for Palestine, this is a joke. The Zionists didn't have anything like enough money to clear the Khalifats debts.

I think the sisters arguments were very sound. MPAC you need to change your stand and support any group calling for an Islamic alternative rather then western style secular democrecy.

After seeing the video someone would come to the conclusion mpac are a pro western organisation with no islamic values at all. The debate it seems was set up not to discuss global caliphate but to label the group hizb tahrir as some kind of bogeyman. The representaive of mpac only answer was democracy more democracy and some more democracy but not an even one islam answer or solution did he have. Is mpac really islamic or just using islam as another cheap slogan that we have seen before!

Just reading thrug these comments it is always interesting to see a group rally to defend their own ideology.
whether it is HT, TJ, Zionists etc, they expose themselves by never answering the central points but by going for the person.

Seeing HT supporters behaving like this on the websie, I have to say, you people havent changed and deserve to be banned.


I will be saying that to my MP.

Rash

"I wonder how many of the posts are from the same individual?"

Whats the matter Rash, finding it hard to believe that so many people have defended Dr Nasreens views. I also happen to agree with everything the sister has said, and she has really shown intellect and has made Zulfi look like a numpty who was going on like a broken record. I think Asghar could have done a better job.

Before you say, i am not HT, but I agree with the revival of the Caliphate.

Ken,

I don't think the people who have posted in defence of Dr Nasreen are HT.

They usually always post on this site and I have read posts in the past from the above, they have usually been in support of stances that HT are against, so in my view they are not HT.

Having spoken to members of HT, they have always said that they will never engage with Mpac and go on their website as a rule, so I doubt it its any of them.

But the issue of the Caliphate runs deep with every Muslim, so whether they are Mpac or HT, they will always support the Caliphate.

I find some of the comments above a bit strange as they imply that HT are for the Caliphate and MPAC are against it, but that's not the message I got from the video.

I think Zulfi made a very valid point that as Muslims we support the idea of a Caliphate, however, what are the mechanism that will ensure any future Caliphate will be accountable and not just another tyranny?

This is a question that HT and other groups continue to evade.

Also, the other strange thing is comments such as that by Wasim: "Mpac 0 Dr nawaz 1" - why is Dr Nawaz being judged as an individual, but Zulfi being judged as the entire organisation?

Syed

" think Zulfi made a very valid point that as Muslims we support the idea of a Caliphate, however, what are the mechanism that will ensure any future Caliphate will be accountable and not just another tyranny?"

This is a question that HT and other groups continue to evade."

I have asked the same question to Taji Mustafa (HT Spokesperson) when I met him at a conference once.

He assured me that in a Caiphate the Judiciary will be independent everyone will have the right including non Muslims to vote for a representative to represent them. Tha people who will have been elected will then be seated at the majlis and they will elect the Calph from amongst them. The Caliph will have complete authority over the armies and all state decisions. But if he has wronged anyone including non muslim citizens he can be summoned to court to answer for himself. No one including the Caliph will be above the law. If the Caliph act injustly and tries to become a dictator then he can be expelled by the Majlis and the army comes under the control of the Majlis.

There will be complete accountability.

Now, the problem only lies with Muslims who don't believe that can happen or believe that HT are lying, and when they come to power they will become dictators. That is just assumption on our part. no concrete evidence

Isn't that democracy then? I don't think mpac are against the khilafa but against HT because of HT's retarded nature.

HT are acting like a bunch of adolescents who argue for the sake of arguing. What HT are trying to say is that the Khilafa will be a democracy, but for somre reason in their heads they keep equating it to western democracy which is why they arguing on like a bunch of lunatics.

HT are our Nation of Islam, who will be our Malcolm X?

@ Raja77:

"Isn't that democracy then? I don't think mpac are against the khilafa but against HT because of HT's retarded nature."

No!! its not democracy. Because democracy is man made laws who make and change laws as they see fit. The have the power to legislate on behalf of the people. And the laws they pass can be in favour of some but against others. Democracy is closely linked with secularism.

The Islamic way of life has its laws which are Allah's law, The Shariah. They have been tried and tested and if applied properly they have the solutions to all of societies problems.

So HT are calling for a Caliphate in which Islam has been implemented. They do not call for western democracy.

If electing rulers is democracy then you are wrong. In the Caliphate all representatives are elected. But they will be governed by Shariah Law.

I could sum HT in two words -

'Paper Tigers'

the woquestions you didnt answer

1. who appoints the judiciary?

2. democracy is not about man made laws it is about people picking their goverments.

Being a person who is not a fan of HT.

I reckon Dr Nawaz from HT did better than Zulfi.

I was actually disgusted with the way Zulfi was pushing democracy all the time.

Its' one thing for MPAC to 'use' democracy in the UK to get MP's to listen to Muslims and change the Foreign Policy. Even though I don't agree with the Democracy full-stop, even in the West. I understand why MPAC may choose to do so.

But Democracy is simply not the Islamic System.

What Zulfi needs to understand is that the Islamic System in its Orthodox form is the Caliphate/Khilafah, it is unique and it is a system in its own right.

Democracy is not something that should be pushed for the Muslim World. Not only is this different from Islam, the fundamental difference being man-made law, but also ideologically different due to these underlying reasons.

Democracy is a system of the people, for the people, by the people.

The Islamic Caliphate is the system of Allah(swt), by Allah(swt), for the people.

This is the fundamental difference.

Man-made law is the backbone of Democracy.

The Law of Allah(swt) is the bacbone of the Islamic Caliphate.

We might see independent judiciaries, elections, rule of law, accountability etc. In both systems.

This does not make Islam 'democratic'. Islam is Islam, we do not need to equate it with anything else.

The sooner Zulfi and Muslims who think like him understand this the better, and sooner the West understand this the better.

MPAC should concentrate on getting the West to butt-out of the Muslim World whether it is Militarily, Politically or Economically.

It is ironic that MPAC signed a statement not too long ago condeming the British Government, including it stance on Shari'ah Law and the Caliphate... "without understanding what Shari'ah Law is or a Caliphate is".

If MPAC is going to talk about these issues it needs to understand what Shari'ah Law is and what a Caliphate is... If we assess Zulfis' performance MPAC does not understand either of them!

Abu Musa,

the discussion was about the Caliphat, not about man made laws, had Dr Nasreen brought that up she would of looked as stupid as you sound.


the weekest point she made, was that democracy was a western construct, well? so what? so is the autombile, the television station she was on and the internet?

Also HT have started to lobby (yes lobby democractically elected members of parliament) people who make man made laws.

The democractic process can be filled with the caliphate, it can also be filled by secularism or communism, or biggoted Islamic parties. But ultimately the people have the choice to remove, corrupt, incompetent, religious hypocrites, etc.

Rather then live with someone until the guy dies only to appoint he's own son.

And don't give me that crap about a judiciary being the guardians, they are appointed, and look at how the Arabs abuse their own Sharia Judiciary.

Also why is HT so anti western?


I say don't stop the ban on HT, unless by Islamic means.

See how far that gets them.

Looks like the only one who dosnt understand the meaning of Sharia and man made laws is you.

Zulfi should have asked, what HT have done since they came about.

For 50 years, they have shouted the slogan of caliphate, without actually achieving anything, nor helping the cause of the muslim ummah - infact done the opposite.

Are HT a step closer to creating the caliphate, since the day were establish 50 years or so ago....The answer is NO. Obviously there is something fundamentally wrong with HT methodology and ideology.

He should have also said, how does HT plan to unite 70 countries, with all the differences - when HT themselves are not united. They are split into many difference sub-cults.

HT are doing what our prophet did which was to get the people to wish for a better way of life.

the muslims of the world are awekening to this idea and in some polls carried out the muslim world wants some form of khilafah.

as i mentioned before it is ok for christains-hindus-buddhists to unite and become one but when muslims wish the to do the same it becomes a wrong thing to do.

if it is pok for others to unite and then it is ok for muslims to become one.

As always, I agree with illuminate

MPAC need to conceal their secular outlook and objectives and their ‘actual’ position on Islam more closely.

Best defence is a good offence, keep attacking everyone else and maybe people won't realise your 'actual' agenda. And if any pesky grouping do understand where your coming from and where you wish to lead the people, then you need to single them out, ridicule and mock them more than you already do.
This is the Islamic way to do things.

In the words of our sheik, Sidi Michael Corleone “I don’t want to kill everyone, just my enemies”

By bringing up points in favour of democracy and opposing unification under Islamic law you will create rightful suspicion in the minds of Muslims that you are a secular gathering and you wont be able to dupe them into following you. On the other hand by saying you agree with khilfah, even if just as lip service will still cause suspicion amongst non-Muslims that you are Islamic, astagfurillah.

More deception of your true aims is required. It is possible, look at the Jews, they did I and they are doing great.

Remember, Illuminate is wise and sincere

Shame on you MPAC for this ridiculous presentation of your point of view. Thak God we still have women like Dr Nazreeen Nawas. What exactly is the MPAC claiming to teach the masajid in terms of Media relations/lobbying with the type of absymal performance. May Allah reward our sister and I'm so proud of her. I'm so ashamed of this boring person that calls himself the CEO of MPAC. CEO indeed.

This sister is awesome, and shows how strong women in Islam can be with the right ideas.A superb role model. Bukari is the mirror image of this sister, an ignorant secularist!
Try listening and taking heed of what an Islamic system means.

you HT guys are crazy, there are three alerts on this website and none of you have done anything to defend muslims, yet when it comes to defending your cult (HT).

You jump to it.


I'm glad you losers are getting banned. your not Islamic, your indoctrinated.


the more muslims that support the ban on you the better.

To all those non HT supprters out there, there head quarters are in the west bank and while Tel Aviv is telling the zionists to get involved in politics HT are telling Muslims not to .

I think HT are a front.

I am a Muslim and i know for sure that the true concept of an Islamic State or a Caliphate is truly wonderful and necessary. People need to understand that the Islamic State Al Qaeda and the Taliban are trying to establish is THEIR VERSION of an Islamic state and not the true Islamic State. I need to be realistic and so does every Muslim. The power elites in this world will never allow for us true Muslims to establish a true Islamic State. NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hizb-ut-Tahrir: The only political party in the world that you can never vote for. A party that believes in free elections but can only take power by overthrowing elected (as well as non-elected) governments.

The Muslim world is pluralistic. Not by accident, but by the will of God. Gooood luck, HT. You'll need it.

in response to the brothers who claim people from ht are 'paper tigers' or 'armchair muslims', this is complete crap. Doing dawa is an action, people from ht are some of the most committed dawa carriers.

Furthermore, members of ht aswell as other revivalist groups in the muslim world have suffered heavily due to corrupt evil dictators, who have killed, tortured and imprisoned the shebab for calling to islam. In uzbekistan brothers have been boiled to death in prison aswell as tortured, furthermore it has been known for members of the intelligence apparatus to rape female members of their families as punishment. This is well documented by independent human rights organisations.

I am yet to hear of the first shaheed from mpac... and i doubt i ever will. I don't have anything against mpac, i don't agree with them, but they are my brothers and i would prefer they existed than not, as they do generally call to islam.

So grow up and have some respect for your fellow brothers, if you disagree -thats fine, but don't slander and attack muslims who do dawa for the sake of allah (SWT).

TO BR. IMAD

I will be a witness over your statement in the day of kiyama, let allah judge who is a good muslim or not.

Salam

I feel the brother was a disgrace, what was he hoping to do? Why does he keep mentioning democracy? Did not anyone tell him that this was about a conference on Khilafah in Indonesia? Why did he try to keep insulting Hizb ut Tahrir? Why did he bother turning up? Where is Asgar Bukhari?

Mashallah, I was very pleased to see the sister do so well. I am really proud of her and I felt very happy that she was there to explain khilafah to the watching people, instead of shouting and causing a fuss like the brother.

Sisters of mpac should also take heed after your mosque fiasco for Channel 4.

Masalama