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| Action Alert: Ask Channel 4 - Where Is The Balance? |
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| Tuesday, 10 July 2007 | |
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Ring Viewer Enquiries: 0845 076 0191 Richard Littlejohn Fact File:
Readers have left 132 comments.
AntiRacist.:
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Antis Semitic attacks doubled last year and Jews are four times as likely to be attacked as Muslims.
Police figures. Many of those attacks are by Nazis. Unfortunately some are by Muslim anti semites.
(1)
2007-07-11 17:19:29
Raja77:
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If C4 decide to make a documentary about rising islamophobia in the country, I know alot of victims of islamophobia they can interview. Infact I even know one who has immigrated to Pakistan because he is afraid that Britain is becoming anti-Muslim, and he fears for his childrens safety.
I was speaking to this friend on the phone the other day and he told me his kids can't hack the heat and the atmosphere is completely different to what they are used to. In a nutshell they are homesick. And then there are people like Littlejohn who claim this is not our home. This man is a born hypocrite whose double standards shine through.
(2)
2007-07-11 17:30:31
Evan Harris - I say no!:
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Lol Evan Harris decent - isnt' he Mr "Please bash the Muslims , honest its our right to do it?"
(3)
2007-07-11 18:07:45
questions, questions?:
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Perhaps now we can have a documentary on Islamaphobia within the Jewish community? - Made by a anti-Semite?
Why not? - Channel 4 got a Muslim hater to make one on us!
(4)
2007-07-11 18:09:44
David Haslett:
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A fair documentry, Channel 4 have already exposed the Muslim community, in the documentry "Undercover Mosque". This program backs up what was said. "Islam is a wicked & vicious religion"
Surah 9:29
(5)
2007-07-11 18:17:09
Justin:
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Fair - yes it was fair if you love Israel and hate Muslims! - it was great!
However for the unbiased many, it was nothing short of propaganda.
(6)
2007-07-11 18:20:10
Anon:
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PLEASE CHECK WEBSITES SUCH AS DAILYMAIL.CO.UK AND DAILYEXPRESS. FOR ARTICLES ABOUT MUSLIMS.
Muslims are being constantly attacked in the reader comment sections on these websites. Some of the vile racists bile will make you sick, I urge to add your comments immediately to combat these nutcases .PS :Go on the daily express and look up the article of the music loving hijabi and read the comments Sorry MPAC don’t know if I can or how to start a discussion
(7)
2007-07-11 18:43:50
Secularist:
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I think we'll all see soon why Asghar hasnt posted the discussion with the bright Evan Harris.I know he had it taped.
Contrast. A shouting embarrassment.
(8)
2007-07-11 18:49:40
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AntiRacist
Why do you want to paint the muslims as racists when you know perfectly well that the real racism is being perpetuatued against muslims by society and the white journalist in the media including some anti-muslim zionists.
(9)
2007-07-11 19:36:04
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AntiRacist
You do know that muslims are painted as racists by programmes such as these so white people can cleanse themselves of the blood on their hands of hundreds of thousands of muslims don't you?
(10)
2007-07-11 19:41:29
YouGo:
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See, where are these UMMAH PULSE guys now? Too busy defending mosques to take on the real issues.
Littlejohn needs to be exposed for what he is. You go boys!
(11)
2007-07-11 20:30:57
Abu Sumayah, Ahmed:
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ANON, thanks.for info abt other forums I will do...tomorow insha-Allah
(12)
2007-07-12 04:52:25
Abu Sumayah, Ahmed:
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MPACUK, hope someone closes you down soon, your nothing but a spinning terrorist organization.
(13)
2007-07-12 07:41:16
Kelly:
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In your 'Richard Littlejohn Fact File', you tell us that littlejohn is homophobic. This is rich, given that Islam is an openly homophobic religion.
(14)
2007-07-12 08:52:23
Raja77:
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Abu Sumayah, Ahmed
Please explain yourself? What do you mean by mpac being a spinning terrorist organisation. Have I missed something?
(15)
2007-07-12 08:53:02
Raja77:
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Kelly
Islam's position is clear on homosexuality, we never pretend to be something that were not. As for Littlejohn who clearly calls gay people 'poofs' and 'paedophiles' and also calls them unatural then he goes on to say that he's not homophobic. Its his hypocrisy that we are pointing out, not whether or not we agree with him.
(16)
2007-07-12 09:03:41
zoey:
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i complained i found the prog to be utterly offensive and ridiculous everyone just pls complain....littlejohn is nothing but a chav bigot and i dont think he cares about the jewish community i think he is just using them to atttack muslims
(17)
2007-07-12 10:10:45
Matt:
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Well I actually thought the proram was very informative. Irrespective of whos done what to who the program focused on racism towards Jews NOT Muslims or Christians or Budists or Pagans or Athiests. It merely highlights what many British people believe that the liberal left are extremely unliberal and will bend over backs to show their support for a "cool" cause. YAY we are all Hamas now YAY
(18)
2007-07-12 10:26:45
HARVEY:
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I was somewhat surprised that Littlejohn made no mention of certain notorious versesfrom the Koran which state that Jews are the descendants of pigs and apes.
Also there is one verse which and I paraphrase O Muslim there is a Jew behind me -come kill him . I realise that there are several bloodcurdling references in both Old and New testaments such as an eye for an eye etc but these are benign compared to the demonisation and call to murder of an entire people. Iunderstand that unlike the Bible and the Torah ,the Koran is literal and not open to commentary. Whilst not suggesting that all Muslims will act on this verse ,it is also quite obvious that in the wrong hands these scriptures can be used to propogate hatred .I fervently believe that this is a gross distortion of the teachings of the Prophet and that it serves only those who would seek to ferment hatred . There are those non Muslims who call for a reformation of Islam as if that would be somesort of panacea for all the difficulties we all face together. I do not believe it neccessary. Islam in its purest form can only be a force for the good of all mankind.However it requires the effort of all Muslims to wrest the scriptures from the hands of those who would use it for their own nefarious acts of hatred.
(19)
2007-07-12 14:17:20
chris wiles:
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It's a bit rich attacking Richard Littlejohn for being homophobic! I hadn't realised that Islam supported gay rights.
(20)
2007-07-12 14:59:57
ROB:
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harvey if you are going to paraphrase then you might as well do that for the talmud as well.
which cosiders non jews as animals and beasts,killing them is of no bother and in some verses it states killing christians is a good act. BTW the whole issue deals with the final battle before the day of judgement and relates to palestine,it is not a open incitement to kill anyone,it describes what will happen to those who fight and oppress muslims in the land of palestine,if you are going to do cut and paste jobs do read the whole section.
(21)
2007-07-12 15:23:41
Sun Reader:
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Has anyone ever heard of the Enlightenment? It seems to me that Christianity and Judaism - at least in Western Europe - underwent a dramatic shift as the light of science, reason and empiricism was allowed to shine in on the murkier aspects of those religions. Islam hasn't gone through this. Until it does it will remain a literalist faith for its proponents.
Comparisons between Islam and the other two religions don't work because of this. Personally I prefer living in an Enlightened world - despite its many faults.
(22)
2007-07-12 16:38:29
ROB:
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sun reader i would not call the slaughter of hundreds of millions of humans enlightenment.
if you check since the reformation in europe around 300 to 400 years ago enlightened people travelled to diffrent parts of the world exterminated the native peoples to steal their homes and lands. a large number of races were totally exterminated from the face of the earth,these were the succesful holocausts were humanity became depraved and despotic for greed and lust. i am sure you did not mean this type of enlightenment.
(23)
2007-07-12 16:53:09
sun reader:
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Rob:
What about Islam though? What are you saying? We're all as bad as each other? No differences between cultures and races? No value judgements to be made? No conclusions? Christians converted Africans 200years ago, so whatever anyone else says or does is unimportant nowadays? Come on - answer a question for once without throwing it back. You don't think Islam is currently going through the third great period of activity in its history? The 'vast amjority' of Muslims may well be 'moderate' (a meaningless word in this context) but it is undeniable that there is a vociferous 'minority' who are not. They find their justifications in their holy texts. Do you condemn some of their more unpleasant notions as much as you do Christian/Jewish history (and present)? Are 'we'in the west no more enlightened than other cultures? Are you incapable of making distinctions?
(24)
2007-07-12 17:09:28
ROB:
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sun reader i do make distinctions and if you had read my comments on other blogs you would have realised that i am totally against all forms of violence by states and individuals.
what i find odd is people bunching muslims togather and then giving lectures,has it occured to anyone that the loonies who attempting to carry out attacks in britain have not been voted by anyone to go and do this,whereas tens of millions of us have voted for bush and blair knowing that they lied and decieved to take us into a illegal war of terror,so who is more guilty collectively someone who votes for their leadership or someone who has no say in who represents him. my issue is do not lecture others when we are ourselves indulging in what we accuse others of,the mass slaughter of hundreds of thousands in iraq based on lies,should give us a lot to think over. do unto others what you would have them do to you and this is the principal i live by.
(25)
2007-07-12 17:52:12
Harvey:
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Rob
Your comments concerning the Talmud need to be backed up by specific references correctly bench marked Since the Talmud is an oral commentary and examination of the Torah and only the passages contained within the Torah you will find no mention of the killing of Christians .Simply this is because the Torah predated Christianity by some 2000 years. I would also point out that there is no reference to Palestine in the Koran .The references to the Jews relate to the tribes who resided in Medina in the time of the Prophet . I suggest that in future you carefully research your facts before entering into any debate
(26)
2007-07-12 20:02:21
Abu Sumayah, Ahmed:
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Please scroll up and disregard the message below as IT IS FAKE! I NEVER SAID THAT! SOME SAD PERSON IS USING OTHER PEOPLES NICK NAMES!!!!! be careful everyone.
""""Abu Sumayah, Ahmed: MPACUK, hope someone closes you down soon, your nothing but a spinning terrorist organization" 2007-07-12 07:41:16"""" I hate this kind of sly stuff, I always have. Thats why although it might seem dramatic when I Testify and also make the following supplication, it because i'm serious when i mean it: By Allah! I dont like being cloned and my name being used on the sly to make remarks by others. I ask Allaah guide them to truthfulness and forgive them or if they persist, to expose who ever it is or break their back! ameen. If ur muslim then fear Allaah. One of the worst things u can do is bare false testimony, as you have done by pretending to be me and make remarks under that name. I mean, i'm saying I am that bothered abt the remarks made either way, I am not concerned about MPACUK at his time. Rather, i'm more angered at who ever used my name. anywayz..... get a life who ever u are!
(27)
2007-07-12 22:26:39
mike:
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Harvey,
I think that you will find that paraphrased verse that you quote, is not from the Koran but the 'Hadith' which is from the traditions and sayings attributed, sometimes spuriously, to the Prophet Muhammed. That particular quote is based upon a prophecy concerning the return of Jesus when he will liberate the oppressed muslims from the Jews at the end of time.(HADITH Sahih Bukhari [4:56:791])The Hadith are not considered the word of God by Muslims. Concerning Genocide in the Old Testament, which is considered the word of God by Jews and Christians, consider the following verses: “Then the LORD said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men… They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword EVERY LIVING THING in it-MEN and WOMEN,YOUNG and OLD, CATTLE, SHEEP and DONKEYS.” (Joshua 2:2, 21) Also: “and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then YOU MUST DESTROY THEM TOTALLY. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.” (Deuteronomy:7:2) And: “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, DO NOT LEAVE ALIVE ANYTHING THAT BREATHES.” (Deuteronomy:20:16) If these verses from the Torah proper do not dispel the myth that the Old Testament does not actively encourage or incite or let's face it, COMMAND Genocide and war of exterminations of whole races-the Philistines, the Amalek people etc. I do not know what will. Even the cattle and base animals are to be exterminated!
(28)
2007-07-12 22:37:36
David:
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ROB:
To paraphrase you: i would not call the slaughter of hundreds of millions of humans an enlightened religion. If you check since the origin of islam in the world around 1400 years ago Muslims travelled to diffrent parts of the world conquored, exterminated the native peoples to steal their homes and lands and tax the non muslims in persia, iraq, egypt, tunisia, morrocco, algeria and so on. On they went into Europe to conquor and exploit spain and on into france. a large number of races/civilisations were totally exterminated from the face of the earth (EG the byzantine empire),these were the succesful holocausts where humanity became depraved and despotic for greed and lust - young men were kidnapped from their families, enslaved and forced to serve in the isamic armies. Slavery was endorsed in the muslim holy texts so was common and a desirable booty of muslim wars of conquest - with all the horrors this entailed, like young men being castrated and turned into eunachs to serve the depraved desires of the sultans and his muslim assistants. No muslim ever said slavery was immoral, that had to wait until the european enlightenment. For over five hundred years the muslim empire of turkey repeatedly attacked europe, despoiling whole regions, laying whole countries to waste, taking the wealth and more advanced technology back with them, along with their castrated young men - for god knows what depraved purposes. for hundreds of years muslim pirates raided the coasts of europe kidnapping white boys to turn them into slaves to serve the debauched desires of the muslim sultans. i am sure you did not mean this type of enlightened religion. Or perhaps you do. Perhaps you think these horrors are ok if committed by muslims? Am I right?
(29)
2007-07-12 23:18:03
Abu Sumayah, Ahmed:
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HARVEY
""...verses from the Koran which state that Jews are the descendants of pigs and apes."" erm i'm not sure where that is but i do recall it....It only refers to some specific people in history long ago as a punishment for them only and IS NOT in relation to all others of that era or ethnicity. In fact the wife of the final Prophet and Messenger Muhammad (May peace be upon him) who was called Sophia r.a, was actually from the Jewish / Israel line. He once remarked to her "You are from a noble line and related to such n such prophet and such n such prophet. The Wifes of the Prophet were named The Mother of the Believers (May peace upon him and her) and are revered and highly loved by all Muslims. Do you think we would describe her as such an animal? I seek refuge in Allaah from ever thinking that. <br /There are many sentences in the Quran that clarify other parts and there are many sentences in the Quran that clearly support the sanctity of life, respect for other faiths as in not to revile what they believe in, repeated sentences referring to previous Prophets and Messenger (may peace be upon them all) with high respect, that refer to Jews and Christians as people of the book and sentences ordering to only discuss/debate with good manners with the people of the book and that oppose any misunderstandings people bring of other sentences. Patience was the conduct of the first Muslims even when living in non-Islamic Makka and being oppressed for the first 13 years of Islam. Some disciples of Allahs Messenger (May peace be upon him) lived in Christian Abyssinia for a period of time and although a non-Islamic society, they lived there in peace causing no harm to others. The king of that land at the time accepted Islam and when Prophet Muhammad heard of this, he prayed the funeral prayer in his own land, may peace be upon them all, ameen. """I realise that there are several bloodcurdling references in both Old and New testaments such as an eye for an eye etc but these are benign compared to the demonisation and call to murder of an entire people.""" Harvey, in the case of the Quran though, it explains it self when you read it, it also has commentary by the Prophet in his recorded Authentic narrations and through his and also his disciples example and those Scholars on their way in each generation. """"I understand that unlike the Bible and the Torah , the Koran is literal and not open to commentary.""" Harvey you very mistaken here. The Quran has Commentary. First and foremost by the Prophet (May peace be upon him, ameen). Allah Himself says in the Quran that "..in him (Muhammad) is the best example" …… "He (Muhammad) doesn’t speak from whims and desires, everything he says is wahee/ inspiration from us" …..and Allaah says … "If you love me, follow the Prophet" So yes we have commentary, but what we don't have or shouldn't have is individual interpretation by any tom, dick or abdul. I only wish people like Usama bin laden knew that or one whose ideology he is obviously influenced by…i.e. the reviver of this heretical ideology in the 19th century (Sayyid Qutub and other such as Moududi). Sayyid Qutub wasn’t even a Scholar let alone being upon the correct understanding of the first Muslims. In fact he was a journalist at one point. He was a clean-shaven Egyptian and studied in America. He took parts of the Quran and Islam, twisted it’s meaning and added influences of Marxism and the French revolution and came up with a new version of this heretic belief and ideology, which history has seen before. The Orthodox sunnah Scholars who refer to the Salaf / Past and Early Muslims for their understanding of the Quran and Islam have refuted this extreme ideology in each generation and recent examples can be posted from the 1980's up until just before 9/11 and continuously after that. Unfortunately apart from general Muslims here who are tapped in to that recourse or who are abroad where the media shows all Muslim views, westerners, non-Muslims and Muslim youth here in the UK, Europe, the USA and Australia don't see the teachings and efforts of Senior Salafi Scholars and imaams due to biased media in the west that instead transmitted the non-scholarly so called shaykhs of extremists like Omar Bakri, Abu Katada and Abu Hamza (
(30)
2007-07-13 00:14:26
Abu Sumayah, Ahmed:
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Harvey (continued from above).....Abu Hamza (
"""Whilst not suggesting that all Muslims will act on this verse ,it is also quite obvious that in the wrong hands these scriptures can be used to propagate hatred .I fervently believe that this is a gross distortion of the teachings of the Prophet and that it serves only those who would seek to ferment hatred."""" Harvey, true but then you can misinterpret just about anything including a nursery rhyme. """There are those non Muslims who call for a reformation of Islam as if that would be some sort of panacea for all the difficulties we all face together. I do not believe it necessary.""" Harvey, I agree. Instead, what needs to happen more and what is actually happening is a return to the pure and orthodox understanding of Islam. The Islam that the Prophets companions /disciples were upon and those that learnt from them and those that learnt from them, i.e. the Past Pious Muslims (Salaf aSaliheen). The Prophet may peace be upon him, told people to stick to the way of these first 3 generations after him. Hopefully you will be enlightened and glad to read my next post, which quotes one of the major and most senior Salafi orthodox Scholars, Shaykh Uthaymeen r.a from Saudi Arabia. I aim to post others from Kuwait, Yemen and Pakistan and students of knowledge in the UK later too.
(31)
2007-07-13 00:17:46
To DAVID (frm Abu Sumaya):
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DAVID, maybe the following highly respected, educated and wordly people need to be educated by you bcos they cerntainly don't agree with u that Islam was or is a barbaric religion or way of life. Give it up mate!
What 12 Famous People Have Said About Muhammad (Peace be upon him & all previous Prophets) throughout the Centuries 1. His complete biography has been authenticated and circulated amongst scholars around the world and began while he was still alive and continuing up until today. One of the first recent examples we quote is from the Encyclopaedia Britannica, as it confirms: (regarding Muhammad) ". . .a mass of detail in the early sources shows that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were likewise honest and upright men." (Vol.12) 2. Another impressive tribute to Muhammad, peace be upon him is in the very well written work of Michael H. Hart, "The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History." He states that the most influential person in all history was Muhammad, peace be upon him, with Jesus second. Examine his actual words: "My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33. 3. While we are reviewing statements from famous non-Muslims about Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, consider this: "Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?" Lamartine, HISTOIRE DE LA TURQUIE, Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276-277. 4. George Bernard Shaw, a famous writer and non-Muslim says: "He must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness." (The Genuine Islam, Singapore, Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936) 5. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, an Indian (Hindu) professor of Philosophy, in his booklet "Muhammad the Prophet of Islam" calls him the "perfect model for human life." Professor Ramakrishna Rao explains his point by saying: "The personality of Muhammad, it is most difficult to get into the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Muhammad the Prophet. There is Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is alike a hero." 6. What should we think about our prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, when someone with the worldly status such as Mahatma Gandhi, speaking on the character of Muhammad, peace be upon him, says in 'YOUNG INDIA': "I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind... I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life." 7. English author Thomas Carlyle in his 'Heroes and Hero Worship', was simply amazed: "How one man single handily, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades." 8. And Diwan Chand Sharma wrote in "The Prophets of the East": "Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him" (D.C. Sharma, The Prophets of the East, Calcutta, 1935, pp. 12) Muhammad, peace be upon him, was nothing more or less than a human being, but he was a man with a noble mission, which was to unite humanity on the worship of ONE and ONLY ONE GOD and to teach them the way to honest and upright living based on the commands of God. He always described himself as, 'A Servant and Messenger of God' and so indeed every action of his proclaimed to be. 9. Speaking on the aspect of equality before God in Islam, the famous poetess of India, Sarojini Naidu says: "It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes man instinctively a brother." (S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, vide Speeches & Writings, Madras, 1918, p.169) 10. In the words of Professor Hurgronje: "The league of nations founded by the prophet of Islam put the principle of international unity and human brotherhood on such universal foundations as to show candle to other nations." He continues, "the fact is that no nation of the world can show a parallel to what Islam has done towards the realization of the idea of the League of Nations." 11. Edward Gibbon and Simon Ockley, on the profession of ISLAM, writes in "History of the Saracen Empires": "I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, AND MAHOMET, AN APOSTLE OF GOD' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honor of the Prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtues; and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." (History of the Saracen Empires, London, 1870, p. 54) 12. Wolfgang Goethe, perhaps the greatest European poet ever, wrote about Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. He said: "He is a prophet and not a poet and therefore his Koran is to be seen as Divine Law and not as a book of a human being, made for education or entertainment." (Noten und Abhandlungen zum Weststlichen Dvan, WA I, 7, 32) Please show respect for or other peoples faith and discuss/debate without name calling or profanity, and for all of Allah’s/Gods previous Prophets and Messengers from Adam a.s to Nowah/Noah to Abraham/Ibraheem to Moses/Musa to David/Daod, Jesus/Isa to the Final Messenger Muhammad (May Peace be upon them all, ameen)
(32)
2007-07-13 00:25:41
(To Sun Reader) frm Abu Sumayah:
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To Sun Reader, You wrote:
"""Sun Reader: Has anyone ever heard of the Enlightenment? It seems to me that Christianity and Judaism - at least in Western Europe - underwent a dramatic shift as the light of science, reason and empiricism was allowed to shine in on the murkier aspects of those religions. Islam hasn't gone through this. Until it does it will remain a literalist faith for its proponents. Comparisons between Islam and the other two religions don't work because of this. Personally I prefer living in an Enlightened world - despite its many faults. """" Aha haaa HaaaHAAA ... sorry I shouldnt laugh... it's just thats it's so ridiculous. Please research or google the folowing truths: ....The Jewish golden period in the last few centuries was while living under Islamc rule in peace in Muslim Spain.... also... Muslim wordly and religious Scholars excelled in the middle ages in all the sciences you mention and more! Although many utilised works already in existence by for example the greecs as a foundational base for some sciences, they went so much further in all fields, medical, mathmatical and also invented so much... Maths: algebra (a man called Al Jabar), The system of Cheque Books by Muslim merchants etc etc. Muslim Cordova in Eutope was a civilised society which promoted tolerance, hygene and advancement, unlike other parts of Europe at that time where the women would where locked chastity belts full of extrement and urine, as their men knew the women would(give it up) when they went out. But hey... at least u cheered me up sun reader looll. I reckon u really are a sun reader after all. google 100 inventions by Muslims.
(33)
2007-07-13 01:00:23
Abu Sumayah, Ahmed:
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HARVEY, as promise my friend. Thank you.
SHAIKH IBN AL-UTHAIMEEN ADVISES MUSLIMS HOW TO LIVE AMONGST NON-MUSLIMS IN THE WEST… This advice was possibly the last this noble Scholar gave to Muslims in the West before he passed away - in a tele-link with Salafi Publications in July 2000. Note that this advice came before the September 11th 2001 attacks in New York, before the Madrid train bombs and before the July 7th 2005 tube bombings in London. So the advice is not driven by a desire to rectify in hindsight, but a sincere and truthful desire to guide and advise the Muslims in the West on how to co-exist in the correct legislated manner. The esteemed and late Shaikh Muhammad bin Salih al-’Uthaimin of Saudi Arabia stated, during a tele-link in the evening of Friday, 28th July 2000: "“…Likewise I invite you to have respect for those people who have the right that they should be respected, those between whom there is an agreement (of protection) for you. For the land in which you are living is such that there is an agreement between you and them. If this were not the case they would have killed you or expelled you. So preserve this agreement, and do not prove treacherous to it, since treachery is a sign of the hypocrites, and it is not from the way of the Believers. And know that it is authentically reported from the Prophet that he said, “Whoever kills one who is under and agreement of protection will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.” Do not be fooled by those sayings of the foolish people, those who say ‘Those people are Non-Muslims, so their wealth is lawful for us (to misappropriate or take by way of murder and killing).’ For by Allaah - this is a lie. A lie about Allaah’s Religion, and a lie about Islamic societies. So we may not say that it is lawful to be treacherous towards people whom we have an agreement with. O my brothers. O youth. O Muslims. Be truthful in your buying and selling, and renting, and leasing, and in all mutual transactions. Because truthfulness is from the characteristics of the Believers, and Allaah - the Most High - has commanded truthfulness - in the saying of Allaah - the Most High - “O you who believe - fear and keep you duty to Allaah and be with the truthful” And the Prophet encouraged truthfulness and said, “Adhere to truthfulness, because truthfulness leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise; and a person will continue to be truthful, and strive to be truthful until he will be written down with Allaah as a truthful person“. And he warned against falsehood, and said, “Beware of falsehood, because falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness leads to the Fire. And a person will continue lying, and striving to lie until he is written down with Allaah as a great liar.” O my brother Muslims. O youth. Be true in your sayings with your brothers, and with those Non-Muslims whom you live along with - so that you will be inviters to the Religion of Islaam, by your actions and in reality. So how many people there are who first entered into Islaam because of the behaviour and manners of the Muslims, and their truthfulness, and their being true in their dealings""" Sadly or strangly the media in the west doesn't transmite such scholars, teachings or advice. We have people in the UK who teach this orthodox Islam too. 'I can't blame the media though, it gets more viewers when u broadcast astray fools like Abu Hamza the hook, Omar Bakri and Anjam Chaudry, and even if some youth only heard these ideas and ideology through the western media over the past ten years and ended up being drawn to some nutter who taught them to kill themself and many civilian muslims and non-muslims on 7/7 2005...at least weve had more interesting news because of it.' <<YUK .... but mayb thats how the media think when they ignore and exclude the majority rightous Muslims or orthodox Scholars. They never get reported in the west when warning and advising Muslims or refuting the extremists during the various incidents such as cartoons issue, salman rushdi or when the Most Senior Muslim Scholar replied to the pope. Then all we here people say is "Why are the muslim quite?" "Why dont the Muslim Clerics/ Scholars say anything apart fom they condem these acts?" Sheesh!
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2007-07-13 01:22:43
David:
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To Abu Sumayah
Mate, you can quote religious drivel at me until the cows come home. I am not religious it has no effect on me. I am not superstitious and thus am uneffected by muslim voodoo. I reckon you can pathetically quote the so called "golden age" of spain at us until the cows come home, and Yes I will concede that the tiny town of cordoba was probably quite a nice place to hang out in the middle ages. But you lot couldn't even establish a basic university! (the paltry one in baghdad is not worthy of the name!) But tell me this, what lasting contributions to world civilisation has islam made? I have followed your advice and googled muslim this and muslim that. Bit sad and sparse isn't it? Islam seems to have been long dark age for humanity, the end of learning and knowledge, a little like the borg in star trek. There are no philosphers. Where's the muslim aristotle, the muslim socrates, the muslim Plato? The muslim wittgenstein, the muslim Nietzsche? Or scientists. Where's the muslim einstein, the muslim darwin, the muslim jenner, the muslim newton? What you do have is muslim conquest (A religion of peace???) which resulted in savages taking over much older and more sophisticated civilisations and having access to the accumulated knowledge of millenia and then acting as a transmission belt, passing on this stolen knowledge from one end of the muslim empire to the other. But there's nothing major or any importance. Even the much vaunted muslim inventions of algebra and the zero are, in fact, stolen from the hindus in india (a civilisation which muslims destroyed through conquest and slaughter). If you don't believe me take a look yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science There are no muslim explorers. There's no columbus, nor a muslim captain cook. And certainly there are no muslim artists or architects of any worth. There's no muslim shakespeare, no muslim van gogh, no muslim Wren. And there's certainly no muslim beethoven, or muslim chopin, or a muslim mozart. I could go on. I will agree what you do have is a rather limited form of poetry, with arabic poets working and then re-working the same tired formats for hundreds of years with no development. You see a world islamic caliphate would be a hideous new dark age for humanity.
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2007-07-13 02:08:00
ROB:
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harvey you should read the comments clealry i did not say torah,i said talmud if you wish to have references go back to the first blog on littlejohn and you can see all the references there for you.
secondly your words were the quran says there is a jew behind me come and kill him,nowere in the quran does it say in medina there are jews and the stones shall say come and kill him,this relates to the end times,after decades or centuries of oppresion and slaughter do you think the palestinians will blow kisses to their tormentors. david we are still busy with our hatred of islam and muslims,if you wish to see what muslims have contributed watch the program what the ancients did for us and you shall see that modern european science and technology is based on muslim inventions and improvements,check 1001 inventions and you shall be able to see what famous muslim explorers-mathematicians-scientists and medical experts did hundreds of years before europe knew the technology existed. everything that so called christians claim as their own invention have been shown to have been invented centuries before by muslims or chinese,one thing that can be claimed by so called christians is industrialisation of porduction and then refining on those basic concepts. it seems you have a blind hatred of islam and muslims and this is a unhealthy condition which destroys people,hatred destroys the person who hates for the sake of hatred.
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2007-07-13 10:35:30
sun reader:
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Abu Sumayah
Jewish golden age under Islam?: A myth 100 inventions? Any recent contribution to human progress?
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2007-07-13 11:41:34
David:
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Rob, please enlighten me then.
Would you be so kind as to LIST the muslim inventions, list the muslim works of art. And list the great muslim artists, scientists. I will await your list with anticipation, because I don't believe it exists, like I don't belive your sky god exist. Because all these supposed muslim discoveries / inventions were taken in their entirity from other civilisations, like the indians or chinese, romans, persians or greeks. The imposition of islam meant the end of learning and discovery, and the end of the creation of great works of art.
(38)
2007-07-13 12:03:03
Raja77:
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David
"The imposition of islam meant the end of learning and discovery, and the end of the creation of great works of art." Oh Really!! Who do you think translated the works of Aristotle to arabic and then to Latin, i'm sure it wasn't Isaac Newton. Yes some works have been taken by other civilisations, but who worked on them and perfected them, while Europe was still thinking that it was blasphemous to meddle with Aristotle. Were does the word Chemistry and alcohol derive from? Who invented these numerals, 1 2 3 4 while europe was using I II III IV Were does the word Algebra derive from? Google 1001 inventions, maybe you might learn something. Muslims philosophers and early islamic philosophy check the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Islamic_philosophy When you made that statement above you not only insulted Muslims but you've insulted the intelligence of all those non-muslims, who have wrote books and essay's on this subject. That could mean one of two things. 1. Your either a misinformed individual 2. or you are just a deliberate hatemongerer.
(39)
2007-07-13 14:07:21
ROB:
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what is the matter david is it hard to log onto 1001 inventions or is it hard to watch the programme on what the ancients did for us.
it seems you have plenty of time to go onto anti-islam and muslims propaganda but find it hard to log onto 1001 inventions. maybe a islam hater like yourself may be get to realise how wrong he is about islam and muslims. you will never win the debate or arguement as your reasoning is based on deciet and outright lies.
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2007-07-13 14:36:05
David:
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Raja77. Not sure why you have to be insulting. Obviously you are too emotionally involved. - What is your problem, are you frightened that we may be correct in our criticisms of islam and the emptiness of islamic civilisation?
A mature adult takes emotion out of an argument and sticks to facts. Raja, you ask? "Who do you think translated the works of Aristotle to arabic and then to Latin". To answer this I used the wikipedia link YOU provided and found the answer. I quote: "During the Abbasid caliphate a number of thinkers and scientists, many of them non-Muslims or heretical Muslims, played a role in transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic knowledge to the Christian West. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. Three speculative thinkers, the two Persians al-Farabi and Avicenna and the Arab al-Kindi, combined Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism with other ideas introduced through Islam. They were considered by many as highly unorthodox and by some were even described as non-Islamic philosophers. From Spain Arabic philosophic literature was translated into Hebrew and Latin, contributing to the development of modern European philosophy. The philosophers Moses Maimonides (a Jew born in Muslim Spain) and precursor of sociology and historiography Ibn Khaldun (born in modern-day Tunisia) were also important." In other words it was non-muslims or 'heretics'. As for numerals wikipedia says: "Nowadays, the most commonly used system of numerals is known as Hindu-Arabic numerals and two great Indian mathematicians could be given credit for developing them. Aryabhatta of Kusumapura who lived during the 5th century developed the place value notation and Brahmagupta a century later introduced the symbol zero." Check the reference for yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerals I will happily concede that the words alcohol, algebra and chemisty (the latter from Al-chemical, taken by arabs from the egyptian) are muslim words. Not a long list of achievements for 1400 years is it? If anything you have proved my point about the paucity of islamic contributions to the overall sum of mankind's knowledge and achievements. And let's not be pathetic and say that the west has excised muslim achievements from the historical record - why would the west do that?? The west is happy to accord merit where merit is due: to the chinese, who invented paper, gunpowder, kites and many other important inventions. Likewise for the indians. And likewise for the genetic work achieved by the civilisations of central and south america, who cleverly manipulated plants to give us maize, aubergines, sweet peppers, chillis, potatoes and tomatoes. There really are no major musim achievements comparable, even though muslims conquored the most important civilisations of the ancient world. Effectivly Islam meant darkness, the end of moving forward in science, of art, of music, philosophy etc etc. What important technology did the islamic world develop? Even the cannons muslim armies used to conquor Constantinople were bought in cash from Europe. The truth is hard to take sometimes, but that doesn't make it not true, raja77. If you find that insulting, that is your problem. Face the facts.
(42)
2007-07-13 14:57:29
Raja77:
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David,
Agreed that some heretical Muslims and non-Muslims brought in the Greek and Hindu scripture and started to translate it. At first it was frowned upon, but later Muslims scholars translated it further and started to study the works of Aristotle. One of them students was the now famous Ibn Sina known in Europe as Avicenna. Below is a brief Introduction and yes he was a practising Muslim "Ibn Sina (full name Abk ‘Al+ al-Husayn ibn ‘Abd Allh ibn S+n al-Balkh+; Persian: '(H9DI 3JF'/~H13JF'), also known as Avicenna) was a Persian (Tj+k)[2][3][4] physician, astronomer, logician, mathematician, metaphysician, philosopher, physicist, scientist, and theologian. Avicenna was born around 980 (370 AH) in Afshana near Bukhara[5] in Khorasan a part of Persia (now part of Uzbekistan) and died in 1037 (428 AH) in Hamadan (Iran).[1] He authored some 450 books on a wide range of subjects, many of which concentrated on philosophy and medicine. His most famous works are The Book of Healing and The Canon of Medicine, which was for almost five centuries a standard medical text at many European universities. Avicenna's medical system was that of Islamic medicine, which was influenced by the medical system of Galen, Aristotelian metaphysics, and early Persian and Arabian medicine. Avicenna is regarded as the father of modern medicine,[6] and the father of the fundamental concept of momentum in physics.[7] George Sarton, the "father of the history of science", wrote in the Introduction to the History of Science: "One of the most famous exponents of Muslim universalism and an eminent figure in Islamic learning was Ibn Sina, known in the West as Avicenna (981-1037). For a thousand years he has retained his original renown as one of the greatest thinkers and medical scholars in history. His most important medical works are the Qanun (Canon) and a treatise on Cardiac drugs. The 'Qanun fi-l-Tibb' is an immense encyclopedia of medicine. It contains some of the most illuminating thoughts pertaining to distinction of mediastinitis from pleurisy; contagious nature of phthisis; distribution of diseases by water and soil; careful description of skin troubles; of sexual diseases and perversions; of nervous ailments." And yes he did study the works of Aristotle. Your argument seems a tad contradictary. At one point you say that Islam meant the end of learning and discovery, then you go on to say that they took knowledge off other civilisations. If Islam stood in the way of Learning and discovery, then how did they allow Ibn Sina and numerous other students in the early Islamic periods to learn Aristotle's work. Which in turn created many scientists in the Muslim world. I also see that you still haven't commented on 1001 inventions. If your having trouble finding it, here is the link http://www.1001inventions.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.viewSection&intSectionID=240 BTW, I am not getting emotional.
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2007-07-13 15:50:33
Abu Sumayah, Ahmed:
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Lolls, ikhwaan, leave it. Theres only a point in going on with eople who seem sincere and genuine to debate and discuss rationally and to find the truth and a soloution.
Hence, with these guys theres no point. In terms of refuting their basless dribble, then weve posted enough for who ever comes accross this thread. anywayzzz up to u. (btw why not paste Karamaat of Science from Kitaab Allaah re: Mountians as pegs, botony, embeologey, Arabic Lugha etc etc.) (i reckon David and sun reader are same person, or maybe sun reader is davids chum lolls) i'm out of this thread.
(44)
2007-07-13 16:12:36
David:
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1001 inventions - for raja77 & rob
Hi boys, just to let you know I have googled "1001 inventions". A question though: how can that website be called impartial?? It is pure muslim propaganda, because it doesn't mention any other peoples!! What it feels like is a parent saying to a rowdy and upset child: "Ok dear, your drawing is just as good as your brothers!" Even though the brother's art work is a hundred times better. I fear you have not quite grasped the concept of impartial knowledge. Impartial knowledge is free of ideological bias, and this website isn’t. But ignoring that, let's take this website apart, piece by piece. This may take some time, so be patient, please. First of all I would note that a lot of what are called muslim achievements are in fact merely "developments" of already existing work. A lot of the basic work was undergone by the ancient greeks and romans, egyptians etc etc. HOME: it would seem the only major things listed here are carpets, soft drinks (sherbet and coffee) and a water clock. SCHOOL: This seems to be the development of words like Chairperson and (it says "could be" the originators of the word) Baccalaureate. As for the connection between mosques and learning, well weren't the greeks renowned for their philosophical schools a thousand years earlier? There is some mention of the chemist Geber, but there's no further information given, so I can't check this out on that site. But Wikipedia says of him: "He emphasised systematic experimentation, and did much to free alchemy from superstition and turn it into a science." So, ok, You can have Geber. MARKETS: This seems to be mainly the development, or continuation of the agricultural achievements of the Roman world. Interestingly, the website at this point has a warning that: "Any views or opinions presented within the comments below are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of 1001 Inventions or FSTC Ltd and have not being verified... ". So, we will ignore that as being pure propaganda for islam. HOSPITALS: Now this really is outrageous lies. It starts by saying: "Did you know that hospitals, as we know them today, were first established by early Muslims." and "The first organised hospital was built in Cairo in 872CE." This is simply not true. A simple wikipedia search of "Hospitals" will show that hospitals were in use in the Greek and roman worlds a thousand years earlier. Check the wikipedia reference yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitals TOWNS: The 1001 inventions site give more lies here. It says: "Muslim pioneered the art of town planning." This is not true. Again Wikipedia on town planning states: "Cities laid out with forethought and design permeate antiquity. Perhaps the earliest of these were those of the ancient Mesopotamian and Harrapan civilizations of the third century BCE." And "The Greek Hippodamus (c. 407 BC) is widely considered the father of city planning in the West, for his design of Miletus; Alexander commissioned him to lay out Alexandria, the grandest example of idealized urban planning of the Mediterranean world, where regularity was aided in large part by its level site near a mouth of the Nile." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_planning EXPLORING THE WORLD: Major problem here that no info is given that I can check. It mentions the explorations of Zheng He and claims these for islam!!!!! Folks, the man may have been muslim, but he was commissioned by the emperor of china! His voyages were Chinese voyages, not muslim. Can you all in honesty claim those voyages of discovery as muslim achievements? Rather scraping the barrel isn’t it? And then the website claims that some sultan invented carrier/messenger pigeons! Huh??? Check Wikipedia again, and you’ll find it says clearly: “The Egyptians and the Persians first used carrier pigeons 3,000 years ago. They also were used to proclaim the winner of the Olympics.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_pigeons Then we have Piri Reis’ navigational maps, which have the earliest reference to Antarctica. Ok good. Even though, according to Wikipedia those pesky Europeans made the first map of the Americas and not Piri Reis. THE UNIVERSE: The astrolabe. Your website says: “The instrument was fully developed and its uses expanded by Muslim astronomers.” Wikipedia says: “Most historians credit the invention of the astrolabe to the ancient Greek mathematician Hipparchus (2nd century BC), and some to Hypatia of Alexandria. Others suggest ancient India as the origin of the astrolabe.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe Abbas ibn Firnas and flying. I will give you that he was the first man who tried to fly, as Wikipedia concurs. Observatories. Hmmm, Wikipedia doesn’t even mention the Baghdad observatory, so we will have to ignore that claim to fame. But even without Wikipedia I know that there Observatories way before the muslims! Part of the problem with this site, apart from its propaganda, lies and inaccuracies, is that one cannot go deeper into the themes. It seems to be a marketing device intended to make one buy the book that accompanies it. To sum up then. Again I have to say that it’s not a huge list of achievements for 1400 years, is it?
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2007-07-13 16:17:15
Sun Reader:
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I don't know David, have never met him and he is not my 'chum'. For all I know he is a most unpleasant character with whom I could never strike up a friendship. None of which makes him wrong in anything he has said - although I am sure he knows the futility of discussing certain subjects with certain people.
(46)
2007-07-13 16:25:32
David:
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To Raja77
You say: "Your argument seems a tad contradictary. At one point you say that Islam meant the end of learning and discovery, then you go on to say that they took knowledge off other civilisations. If Islam stood in the way of Learning and discovery, then how did they allow Ibn Sina and numerous other students in the early Islamic periods to learn Aristotle's work. Which in turn created many scientists in the Muslim world." Raja I will agree that islam kept alive the learning of the ancient greeks (and others), and, like a transmission belt carried this knowledge onwards to the four corners of the muslim empire. Ok? However, there were no major advancements in knowledge, nor developments. That is what I meant by the end of knowledge and development. Because for me a thrusting and vibrant civilisation develops new ideas, carries knowledge forward. It doesn't simply endlessly re-work and re-do ideas developed by others, like islamic civilisation did/does. I assume this was because of the islamic obsession with holy texts which have to be endless poured over and rote-learnt by scholars - and if the holy text cannot be changed then that effects the knowledge base and attitude to learning, of the whole civilisation. This is particularly true, if as your 1001 Inventions website says, learning was chained to the mosque and was not independent. This is why the little that was developed was developed by non-muslims and "heretics" who operated outside the confines of the mental straight-jacket of the mosque. Learning chained to an ideology like islam holds mankind back, as witnessed today by muslim biology students in the UK who refuse to accept Darwin's theory of evolution because it is anti-koranic! Whereas they are quite happy to accept other western scientific ideas like gravity and the origins of the universe! That is all rather sterile and pointless and reveals a closed and medieval mind.
(47)
2007-07-13 16:31:08
David:
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To Raja, Rob and Abu Sumayah, Ahmed
I have come on here in good faith and have, I think answered all your points of criticism of my thesis that islam is bad for mankind intellectually, in terms of the production of free and impartial knowledge, scientific discoveries etc. And that islam and religion in general are bad for furthering mankind's overal knowledge of the world, society and the universe. I have dealt with your criticisms point by point. I have, at risk of great boredom, been to and read the websites you told me to consult. And if anything they have only strengthened my thesis by clearly revealing the paltry contribution of islam to mankind' store of knowledge and learning. Yet, because you are defeated in a rational argument you either insult me or refuse to engage with the argument I offer, and like Abu Sumaya run away in a hissy fit. Guys this is not good and doesn't augur well for the future. If anything it reveals how religion in general and islam in particular should be kept well out of the public sphere (schools, morals and politics etc) and pushed back into the realm of the private and kept there.
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2007-07-13 16:43:23
................................:
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David you are a racist bigot and your sort are looking for an outlet for your racism in order to get that feel good factor and overcome your inferiority complex.
If it can't be black people or jews it has to be muslims. If it is not muslims here it has to be muslims abroad if it is not muslims abroad then it has to be muslims somewhere or other. I tried having a good ol intellectual banter with you but you are full of contraditions and as for your aruments in a debate they are full of more holes than gorgonzola cheese if you can't be bothered to read what someone has writen then how can you say that you have won the argument. How can you hope to win an argument when all you do is believe everything on the internet that you seem to love churling out faster than a murdoch press. Have a good day mate.
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2007-07-13 17:01:10
David:
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Oh dear!
And now I am accused of being a racist! Lol. I really cannot be bothered answering that silly accusation! But go on, do tell me how I am a racist by criticising the comfort blanket of the religiously afflicted? And this had better be good!
(51)
2007-07-13 17:06:26
ROB:
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david you waste no time in showing what a great islam hater you are,when shown proof you say its run by muslim so its biased and since when did wikipedia become gods divine record,i can say the same that wikipedia is run by non muslims so we cannot rely on that.
its odd that you forgot to mention ibne battuta the great explorer who travelled the length and breadth from morroco to china hundreds of years before marco polo,its odd you have not mentioned the contribution of muslim mathematicians,the greatest works on eye surgery written by a muslim which was used until a few hundred years ago. you forgot to mention who invented the still camera,you forgot to mention surgical equipment invented by muslims are still in use today,you forgot to mention it was muslims who invented soap,it was muslims who invented the windmill-it was muslims who invented chemical gold-it was muslim who invented rockets and torpedoes,the list goes on and on. since you do not trust 1001 inventions watch the programme made by christians called what the ancients did for us and then say these are stil lies. you are they type of bigoted islam hater who if told milk is white will say no its black,you will never win the debate because your deciet and lies will be demolished no matter how good you have been trained to lie and deceive.
(52)
2007-07-13 17:30:16
................................:
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David
You really think that I am going to waste my time on a waste of space like you. Racism is funny ain't it.
(53)
2007-07-13 17:36:29
David:
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Mr Cowardly ........... (cowardly because you hide behind a series of .........)
If you would please answer the question of how I am racist???? How does your simple mind equate criticism of a religion and its followers to racism? Strange how you lot cannot argue without resorting to insults. Where have I seen that sort of behaviour before? Oh yes, in the school playground! And Rob, the people you mention were not on that muslim website you lot told me to go and view! So, how could I mention them!
(54)
2007-07-13 17:42:06
...............................:
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Mr Cowardly ........... (cowardly because you hide behind a series of .........)
Strange how you lot cannot argue without resorting to insults. Where have I seen that sort of behaviour before? Oh yes, in the school playground!
(55)
2007-07-13 18:50:14
Raja77:
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David,
1001 Inventions is NOT a Muslim Website. It has no religious bias because it is not run by Muslims. Below is the information on the website "1001 Inventions is a non-religious and non-political project seeking to allow the positive aspects of progress in science and technology to act as a bridge in understanding the interdependence of communities throughout human history. 1001 Inventions consists of a UK-wide travelling exhibition, a colourful easy to read book, a dedicated website and a themed collection of educational posters complementing a secondary school teachers' pack." Now that doesn't say it's a Muslim website. Also there is a section at the bottom of each page which say's the following "Academic Sources Our historians have spent countless hours verifying the facts presented here. Click here to see a list of references. Did you know some of the manuscripts mentioned in the references still exist today? Click here to see where these manuscripts are located." And below are some of the academics who have verified the work. "Spink, M. S. and Lewis, G. L. (1973), ‘Albucasis On Surgery and Instruments’, The Wellcome Institute of the History of Medicine, London. Leclerk quote - Lecrlerc Lucien (1877), ‘L’Histoire de la Medicine Arabe’, Paris, vol.1 p.456" I hope this goes pretty far to convince you. If not, then I'm afraid there is no need to carry on with this discussion. The info put on this thread by Rob, Abu Samayah Ahmed and myself should be enough to cover the points that we have been discussing. If you still continue not to believe then thats up to you, I wish you good luck in life.
(56)
2007-07-13 18:54:17
hudson:
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Surely the problem here is the huge difference between the extreme [religious/political] personality and the secular or moderate types. The extremist Muslims and ultra orthodox Jews both seem locked into medieval times. Their view of the universe is unchanged from that of hundreds of years ago.
Moderate thinkers from both sides, those who seem able to look at and discuss both points of view without the built-in spite exhibited by extremists, are usually the ones that produce the modern day advances in science, medicine etc. If one could take extremists out of both sides [as if!] you would have no Middle East problems, no Irish problems etc. The moderates can get on with each other if given the chance.
(57)
2007-07-15 11:47:42
Abu Sumayah, Ahmed:
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David
"and like Abu Sumaya run away in a hissy fit." Looool 1. I simply said I havn't got time for a discussion where people divert from or refuse or ignore and pretend not to understand what was written. Hence, I was waste of precious time! 2. I mentioned (A) 12 histirical world famous and highly respected people who were non- muslim that mentioned Muhammads (may peace be upon him)and Islam achievements. (B)A Scholar advising western muslims from going towards bad behaviour or extreme teachings while living under an agreement of peace, using Islamic texts before 9/11 and I refered to other scholars who had taught similar before and after 9/11. (C) and in my other post I answered questions in relation to more recent achievements i.e cordova, which is obviously 100s of yrs after the many magnificent achievements of Islam that the 12 famous and world respected non-Muslims testified to in my earlier post, as one example. Yet you replied to say: "Mate, you can quote religious drivel at me until the cows come home. I am not religious it has no effect on me. I am not superstitious and thus am uneffected by muslim voodoo." Doesnt make sense really does it, just like i mention in point 1 above, that you ignore whats written or pretend not to understand. The early philosphers, I think Aristotle is amongst them, thought humans were fully developed even in the sperm or once it had merged etc. (I havn't go time to check exactly, i'll leave that to u). However, in the Quran Allaah my Lord and yours informs us of the stages of development in the womb and what the fetus looks like at each stage. This has only been possible in the last century when a suitable microscope was invented, however science has benefited from the knowledge in the Quran before this. The mountains are like pegs. We have now discoverd that mountain are as deep underground as they are above. Hence, scientists flocking to the Quran to assist in their specific scientific fields development and advancement. Some of whom have reverted to Islam and become submitters/Muslim. Allaah says in theQuran that we (Humans)and jin can penetrate the heavens, but only with Allaahs permission. (not exact words). This is just one example of incouragement to man to study and advance. ohh and don't believe everything u read in wikipedia lolls. Fibonacci transmission of numerals - Burnett Charles (2005), ‘Leonard of Pisa (Fibonacci) and Arabic Arithmetic’, Muslimheritage.com, FSTC. - Roshdi Rashed, ‘Fibonacci et les mathématiques arabes’, in Micrologus 2, 1994, pp. 145-60. "al-Karaji on the decimal system - Roshdi Rashed (1986), ‘Al-Karkhi’, in Dictionary of the Middle Ages; vol 7; J.R. Strayer Editor in Chief; Charles Scribner’s Sons; New York, pp. 211-2. On Al-Samawa’l and Al-Kashi contribution to decimal fractions" Yep decimal fractions were an invention of the IV civilization that flourished in the area now named Pakistan some 3000 years ago. For anyone else, if you wiki Pingala it's written he's "Indian". Like most of wiki, it's wrong. Pingala was a mathematicians around the area of Gandhara (more to the North of the region named Pakistan now). That region was always seperate and distinct to what people asume has always been India before the recent changes over 50 years ago. Thats why I and the site I refered to originally said that there are many Muslim inventions and contributions, which also include advances on previous works. But u refer to wiki like its full proof. The only full proof book is the Quran as it is the speech of One who is perfect and has the best of Names and Attributes, wheras all these other jokers and philophers would gues one thing right while another 50 things wrong! People have ran away from the srciptures that Allaah never protected and that man changed, as they contradicted scientific discoveries, wheras a Muslims faith is increased due to the Quran and non Muslims are running to it due to its acuracy. And All praise is due to Allah, Lord of all Mankind and all that exists. now leave me alone will ya.
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2007-07-15 15:50:11
hudson:
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"And All praise is due to Allah, Lord of all Mankind and all that exists". End Quote Who also happens to be exactly the same monotheistic G-d as that of the Christians and the Jews. All just hang a different label around the same "neck".(Otherwise how could all 3 religions have the same old testament?) So it is more than a little odd that this self same Deity should be the excuse for the conflict. I cannot for one second believe that such an all-powerful, far-sighted and benign Deity would actually want one branch of His believers to go out and murder members of another branch because they read from a different book. That all smells very strongly of purely human fallibility and self-importance.
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2007-07-15 16:11:24
Abu Sumayah,Ahmed:
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Husdon, I agree.
Allaah is Most Merciful and Most Generous. He from His Most Perfect Wisdom (Al Hakeem) has created us to worship Him alone and avoid the false deities. He is The All Knowing and has created us, and He has given us free will and Tests us (although He already knows each of our end state). It is mankind that changes scripture, however, Allaah says in the Quran that He is the preserver of this Rememberence. Thats why we only have one Quran i.e no matter how many people astray from the truth just like the people of previous times, this time we have the text un altered, the teaching of His final Messenger (may peace be upon him) and orthodox scholars upon his way in each generation. (Infact please scroll up and see the post abt shaykh uthaymeen r.a who dies just before 9/11 yet who advices and taught Muslims in the west how to live in peace and to honour the contract of peace and he refuted the herresy of the extreme types.) Unfortunately people of old times reverted back to worshipping others along with Allah and likening Him to His creation such as attributing to Him the need to have a child or to be born. And some of the 'followres'of Musa (moses) may peace be upon him, took Ezra as son of Allaah too. A person needs a son to either help them in old age or carry on their name when they die. Allaah is not effected by either and is The Ever Living. Pure Islam is a return to the belief, religion and way of life of all the previous messengers sent by Allah. As Allaah and His final Messenger taught us that a messenger was sent to every nation and time calling the people to worship Allaah alone and avoid the false deities. Islam means submission of ones (free)will to the will of Allaah. Muslim mean one who submits. All the Prophets and Messengers called to this and all were sumbitters and non called to the worship of themselves, May peace be upon tem all, ameen. w w w. salaf .com
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2007-07-15 22:48:01
hudson:
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Well, I don't want to stir it, but from what you are stating it seems that original orthodox Judaisn is in fact the only religion connected with the one G-d (Allah, Jahweh, whatever label you give him) that has been unaltered and un-added to by mankind.Christianity, at least in the form of New Testament, is a massive revision and so is the Koran, and so is reform Judaism.It looks like the only ones who have got it right are the Charedic Jews!!My personal slant on this is that we should all forget about religion and concentrate on God, and behaving ourselves. And I don't believe that should including aiming to harm, or even denigrate, those that don't agree with our views.In any case, it is blindingly obvious that most of the Middle East crisis is about political power, territorial ownership, and getting rid of perceived enemies.The trouble is, when you base these things on religion, if you got rid of one lot entirely [say for example the Jews] within weeks the focus would turn on getting rid of the nearest rival sect of your own bunch.Before you pooh-pooh this, look what is happening right now between Sunni and Shiah. Who would you say has its religious methods and views perfectly right out of those two branches?And to repeat myself, you don't find an awful lot of mass murder going on between different Jewish congregations and offshoots. I don't think a refrom Jew has yet driven a car bomb into a Lubavitch synagogue.
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2007-07-16 08:39:34
David Kravitz:
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Richard Littlejohn stated it is "open season on the jews", whereas the evidence showed that the allegations of anti-Semitism reported in his documentary had been taken very seriously by the police, MPs and journalists. For example, an apology was issued for the offensive New Statesman cover. Littlejohn further went on to state that, "most Jews in Britain feel they are facing the worst threat since World War 2". Any rational person would ask if this was mere conjecture on his part or could he point to some hard evidence? So why didn't he produce any opinion survey to back up his claim?








